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Stopping Botting is easy!

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Yuki Kulotsuki	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:56:00 - [61] Originally by: Phonspillion Apitar'IV Instead of trying to stop botting (mining bots at least), why not incorporate it into the game. They already have a system for automatic resource extraction in PI. Save us from bots and boredom at the same time. I think the preferred direction would be an economic change combined with a game design change such that mining is enjoyable rather than tedious and that minerals are no longer over abundant to the point of being near worthless. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link?
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:58:00 - [62] Originally by: Chevex Quote: Why don't you just turn off your Virus software while you surf the internet? My point was that a virus scanner can be sued despite having a EULA. IIt's up to the company to choose to be invasive and risk a lawsuit. Blizzard is much bigger than CCP and has no problem with this where CCP probably is not ready to cross that line. My entire point is that its not as easy or as black and white as you think it all is. And there is no such thing as a full proof solution. They were tricking people into buying additional random **** in the link you provided. That has nothing to do with this discussion of what content can be added to a game client Via an EULA agreement.
Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:59:00 - [63] This still does nothing to actually stop botting. Just slow it down.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:00:00 - [64] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/04/2011 00:02:48 Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki alienating average users and attracting trolls. Every post does that, these are the sad flame wars per CCP's own admission with a rainbow unicorn. But at least your now posting more constructive information @Corina's Bodyguard That is because you can never completely stop botting, you can only slow it down to a point where you "Stop It" from be so ridiculously commonplace.
Phonspillion Apitar'IV	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:05:00 - [65] Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki ...a game design change such that mining is enjoyable rather than tedious... Absolutely. I'm thinking of some way to get out of the coalmine and behind a manager's desk.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:08:00 - [66] Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Originally by: Phonspillion Apitar'IV Instead of trying to stop botting (mining bots at least), why not incorporate it into the game. They already have a system for automatic resource extraction in PI. Save us from bots and boredom at the same time. I think the preferred direction would be an economic change combined with a game design change such that mining is enjoyable rather than tedious and that minerals are no longer over abundant to the point of being near worthless. I truly believe, the one best soloution, is render the bots ineffective, ya I know that does not say exactly what to do lol. Some games, have added Automatic harvesting of various types to gain this effect, some of these are obtainable by in game $$, or in game collective efforts, or many other ways. Now take this with a a giant grain of salt, this is just half assed random Idea I just had. Using a combination of skills, LPs and maybe some kind of manufactured items, add something like a Mining Frigate bot to a PoS type of arrangement, similar to PI. Anyway, with X LPs and X $$ and X Items you obtain, you get X Frigate style bots with a limit you can have per system and total etc, they will NOT mine as effectivly as a real player, but more of an Augment, maybe a total of 1 BS worth of mineral per week Anyway, that is JUST AN IDEA!! a way to work towards rendering unsanctioned bots useless, instead of the smash face approach, that always catches the innocent in the drag net SWToR is doing it, EQ2 is doing it, and others..
Roosterton The 57th Overlanders	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:13:00 - [67] Originally by: Minarete SWToR is doing it, EQ2 is doing it, and others.. Thanks, you just gave me another reason not to get ToR... -------- Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three. Originally by: Tarminic OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
Phonspillion Apitar'IV	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:14:00 - [68] You'll no better come up with a perfect bot detector as you will a perfect virus scanner. It's a continuous game of leapfrog. You need to address the problem at a design level by taking away the botter's advantage.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:18:00 - [69] Originally by: Roosterton Originally by: Minarete SWToR is doing it, EQ2 is doing it, and others.. Thanks, you just gave me another reason not to get ToR... So you are saying you dont like a dynamic approach as opposed to the smash face approach? I personally dont want to see things that limiting.
Hawelt Amarr Warpspeed Shipping Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:45:00 - [70] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54 1. Anyone with moderate programming skill can generate a "bot" recognizer that would identify known macros as they run on your PC. Its somewhat more advanced. You don't see moderate programming skills in most non-fake virus detection software. Your idea might work for a few months until the bot programmers adapt and learn from techniques used by virus developers. Some bots which got discussed here recently (hint: even if people don't link to bot forum and just cite them its still just a google search away...) employ some serious AI and computer vision knowledge, if their claims are correct. Thats way beyond 'moderate programming skill' Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54 2. Since these macros are part of the public domain (anyone can get them) it would be simple enough to update the "macro fingerprint list" through regular updates. That still requires a lot of effort to obtain bot 'fingerprints', relies on static fingerprints and will fail with sophisticated bots. Its still an arms race between CCP researching heuristic detection and bot developers researching obfuscation. I have no idea for whom it would be more expensive to do this, but its probably rather cheap to just buy the obfuscation from 'professionals with years of experience'. Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54 3. You apply them to the client and from time to time (randomly) check the client integrity to make sure that it has not been altered in any way. Apply them to the client ? Apply what exactly ? How do you apply something to the client if a bot just processes whats visible on the screen and generates some keyboard and mouse input ? Atleast one bot exists that works this way. And CCP seems to ban its users just fine (probably by observing their behaviour) that they keep deleting complaints on their forum. Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54 4. Profit. But here is the thing... Botters are so prevalent in this game right now that as soon as you suggest any fix to a macro problem you will get flooded with "U mad" "U can't do anything about it" and "how exactly do you know he is a macro?" You said profit. Last time I checked CCP was a business and not a charity. Why would the choose a way to do things that does not maximise their (longterm) profit ? Maybe they have more knowledge and came to a different decision. Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54 What I find in most forums is that when bots come up in discussion, the first people in there trying to derail a forum are those people that use them. They are the first to name call, try to bully, or simply get a thread locked. They start calling people out about baseless accusations, shut up, whatever. Honest gamers don't have problems at all talking or posting about such things, just the botters who have something to hide. So even if CCP were to impart such a fix, the forums would light up with "Bawww. CCP is invading my computers privacy" where as in fact all they would be doing is identifying known and obvious macro finger prints. That being said. Botters please sign off. I will be taking a roll call. I sincerely hope this was just a rather successful attempt at trolling. If its not...well maybe someone could procure a'point of view gun' or the Total Perspective Vortex. Those might be faster cures than age or experience. Botting is a very complex problem with technical, economic AND social aspects. Solving NP=P or curing cancer might be easier than a solution for spam, botting or world peace

Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:46:00 - [71] Originally by: Roosterton Originally by: Minarete SWToR is doing it, EQ2 is doing it, and others.. Thanks, you just gave me another reason not to get ToR... ToR is doing it because collection of resources is not an intended career. Its just there to add some depth. What they have planned would not work well for EVE.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:56:00 - [72] Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard Originally by: Roosterton Originally by: Minarete SWToR is doing it, EQ2 is doing it, and others.. Thanks, you just gave me another reason not to get ToR... ToR is doing it because collection of resources is not an intended career. Its just there to add some depth. What they have planned would not work well for EVE. I do not disagree one bit, the bigger part of my point, is you can not just take it away, you have to give an alternative, like raising teenagers.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.19 01:08:00 - [73] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/04/2011 01:09:55 Originally by: Hawelt Smart man Thx for your post, which in turn brings to light (what I think) is the true problem. It is about effort Vs reward in a business model. If things are "good enough" right now to generate profits, why bother going through all that effort just to make a "better version" of the same universe that you already have? No business would do that. CCP and programmers could have killed bots (by some means) a long time ago. They do not because it is not about how many bots they have in their game it is about how much YOU the player hates the fact that they are there. Many of EVE's player base is quit fond of bots and botting for example. CCP only needs to get rid of enough bots to shut us up, they do not need to exert any kind of meaningful effort beyond that single goal. They are in fact a business and a business is just about numbers. Gone are the days when it was about a few good friends with a dream getting together to create something new and bold and then sharing it with the world. But... That does not mean that we should be content with that. Bots can be reduced many fold through all MMO's if only it would profit some developer more then it profits them to leave them be. The Botting issue is like landing a man on mars, it is very much possible and within our grasps at this very moment... but no one really wants to do it because it wont make you any money. Tl;Dr Bots are not 100% invulnerable programs, that can be combated if people just cared enough to do so.
Eladaris Amarr Excessum Industries	Posted - 2011.04.19 01:29:00 - [74] Edited by: Eladaris on 19/04/2011 01:32:07 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian CCP only needs to get rid of enough bots to shut us up, they do not need to exert any kind of meaningful effort beyond that single goal. They are in fact a business and a business is just about numbers. Quoting the first non-stupid thing the OP has said in this post. But here's the funny thing. If you figured out a 100% silver bullet anti-bot program you could sell it to every single MMO company out there. You'd have money flowing in from every single damn paid and F2P MMO on the market. In case you weren't aware... no such tool exists, because less than a week after it was released, there would be 3 or 4 new bots that defeat it. Googling the words WoW and Bots gives dozens of hits, and WoW has Warden, so obviously that didn't work very effectively. As an aside, there really aren't technical solutions to human problems. In a game like Eve where resource acquisition is key, RMT will never go away. Even though people can buy PLEX through CCP, enough people apparently buy through illegal channels, I have to assume the RMT'ed ISK is vastly cheaper. Until RMT goes away, botting will never go away, because there will ALWAYS be a profit driver for the creation of newer bots. And ultimately the money CCP sinks into fighting bots does not give them shiny new products that the player base cares about.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.19 01:45:00 - [75] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/04/2011 01:46:52 Eladaris, your analogy can only be true if virus protection software was not effective a vast portion of the time. The cost of an effective counter botting software is lots and lots of effort in terms of identifying new bots and updating your own program with countermeasures. That's allot of time and effort that needs to be balanced by considerable rewards. Rewards that i simply do not believe would be there when compared to other things that you could be doing with the same amount of manpower. You know? Like ratting in NPC space instead of running Lv 4 missions in Empire... Why would you do that? Once again, CCP only needs to deal with bots just enough to shut everyone up. No more and no less.
Eladaris Amarr Excessum Industries	Posted - 2011.04.19 02:12:00 - [76] Edited by: Eladaris on 19/04/2011 02:15:04 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Eladaris, your analogy can only be true if virus protection software was not effective a vast portion of the time. The cost of an effective counter botting software is lots and lots of effort in terms of identifying new bots and updating your own program with countermeasures. //STUFF Once again, CCP only needs to deal with bots just enough to shut everyone up. No more and no less. Comparing anti-RMT/botting and anti-Virus is... odd. Millions upon millions of people pay, lets say Norton, annually, for a service. Let's say you can buy a 1yr sub. for $15. A very large percentage of every single penny of that money can be spend on anti-virus tools. With the MMO companies, you are paying for YOUR enjoyment of a product. Only a small portion of the user base really ever pays attention to the botting issue, and a larger percentage pays attention when it's a hot topic. Ninjaspud is certainly doing a valid job of keeping the anti-botting interest alive. RMT, on the other hand, is a very critical problem, doubly so for CCP where every penny their customer base spends on RMT is potentially a market loss to their PLEX system.
Antihrist Pripravnik 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.19 03:34:00 - [77] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54 1. Anyone with moderate programming skill can generate a "bot" recognizer that would identify known macros as they run on your PC. 2. Since these macros are part of the public domain (anyone can get them) it would be simple enough to update the "macro fingerprint list" through regular updates. 3. You apply them to the client and from time to time (randomly) check the client integrity to make sure that it has not been altered in any way. 4. Profit. Next time you think you know anything about programming, please go to your nearest park and run 3 circles around it. Hopefully, when you get home you will not want to post on the forum about it. OR (if you like it this way) The problem is not THAT simple. Leave it to more competent people to come up with the solution.
Neoexecutor Minmatar Skynet Technologies	Posted - 2011.04.19 04:33:00 - [78] Ur mom is easy.
Ibn Ibelin	Posted - 2011.04.19 05:13:00 - [79] I can guarantee you that there is no way to detect my bots. You will not find a process on my host machines responsible for executing a "macro" or a script. Mouse and keyboard input is never injected. As far as the operating system is concerned, input is coming from the HID devices connected to the USB ports. The bots run human-like patterns. Patterns that are constantly being tweaked on a regular basis from data from when I actually play the game. The bots run on a human like schedule. When I sleep, my bots sleep. You can request a chat with the bots at which point you will be chatting directly to me over my smartphone. Each one of my bots VPN's through unique IP addresses. As far as CCP is concerned, they're 6 accounts paying to play. As far as you're concerned, it's just another 6 accounts participating in Eve. As far as I'm concerned, I can enjoy peak experiences in the game with no personal time spent grinding. My justification for my botting is deep, very very deep and it started in 97 when I I was trying to solve a major problem with MMORPG's. I would be more than happy to have a respectable debate on the topic of why I bot if anyone cares to. To summarize my point... my bots are undetectable, sorry.
Katra Novac	Posted - 2011.04.19 05:36:00 - [80] Originally by: Ibn Ibelin I can guarantee you that there is no way to detect my bots. You will not find a process on my host machines responsible for executing a "macro" or a script. Mouse and keyboard input is never injected. As far as the operating system is concerned, input is coming from the HID devices connected to the USB ports. The bots run human-like patterns. Patterns that are constantly being tweaked on a regular basis from data from when I actually play the game. The bots run on a human like schedule. When I sleep, my bots sleep. You can request a chat with the bots at which point you will be chatting directly to me over my smartphone. Each one of my bots VPN's through unique IP addresses. As far as CCP is concerned, they're 6 accounts paying to play. As far as you're concerned, it's just another 6 accounts participating in Eve. As far as I'm concerned, I can enjoy peak experiences in the game with no personal time spent grinding. My justification for my botting is deep, very very deep and it started in 97 when I I was trying to solve a major problem with MMORPG's. I would be more than happy to have a respectable debate on the topic of why I bot if anyone cares to. To summarize my point... my bots are undetectable, sorry. So you confess to using bots most of the time. If I was CCP I'd ban you anyway using your post as evidence.

Pandadora	Posted - 2011.04.19 08:24:00 - [81] Oversimplify things is great, until you hit reality. lol There is a word for it: selective perception

CCP StevieSG	Posted - 2011.04.19 09:34:00 - [82] Moved to Features and Ideas from EVE General.

Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.04.19 10:03:00 - [83] Another bot thread moved to the graveyard .. @OP: So you would willingly let CCP run what amounts to a keylogger on your computer? I for one would drop this game in a heartbeat even though I love it death if they ever chose the Blizzard solution.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.19 10:27:00 - [84] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 19/04/2011 10:28:03 Uh oh.....you're thread is officially dying. I guess even CCP is getting tired of all the talk of bots but not the bots themselves.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.19 10:56:00 - [85] Originally by: Pandadora Oversimplify things is great, until you hit reality. lol There is a word for it: selective perception Selective perception also says that bots are invulnerable (TM) Also, ofc CCP moved it, TBH I am surprised they didn't just lock it.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.19 11:02:00 - [86] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/04/2011 11:02:24 Originally by: Ibn Ibelin I can guarantee you that there is no way to detect my bots. You will not find a process on my host machines responsible for executing a "macro" or a script. Mouse and keyboard input is never injected. As far as the operating system is concerned, input is coming from the HID devices connected to the USB ports. The bots run human-like patterns. Patterns that are constantly being tweaked on a regular basis from data from when I actually play the game. The bots run on a human like schedule. When I sleep, my bots sleep. You can request a chat with the bots at which point you will be chatting directly to me over my smartphone. Each one of my bots VPN's through unique IP addresses. As far as CCP is concerned, they're 6 accounts paying to play. As far as you're concerned, it's just another 6 accounts participating in Eve. As far as I'm concerned, I can enjoy peak experiences in the game with no personal time spent grinding. My justification for my botting is deep, very very deep and it started in 97 when I I was trying to solve a major problem with MMORPG's. I would be more than happy to have a respectable debate on the topic of why I bot if anyone cares to. To summarize my point... my bots are undetectable, sorry. If i take you at your word (because you may be completly full of crap just to derail another already derailed bot thread) do you expect a large % of botters to have a set up like yours? Would you suggest that a large portion of them could even afford it? No.
Pandadora	Posted - 2011.04.19 11:08:00 - [87] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Originally by: Pandadora Oversimplify things is great, until you hit reality. lol There is a word for it: selective perception Selective perception also says that bots are invulnerable (TM) Also, ofc CCP moved it, TBH I am surprised they didn't just lock it. I never said they are, but your topic is "Stopping Botting is easy!" which is either a (given) good troll or said by one without any clue (so selective perception on your so called arguments). Anyway, its always entertaining to watch clueless people and the answers here were fun too. Keep it comming.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.19 11:16:00 - [88] Originally by: Pandadora Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Originally by: Pandadora Oversimplify things is great, until you hit reality. lol There is a word for it: selective perception Selective perception also says that bots are invulnerable (TM) Also, ofc CCP moved it, TBH I am surprised they didn't just lock it. I never said they are, but your topic is "Stopping Botting is easy!" which is either a (given) good troll or said by one without any clue (so selective perception on your so called arguments). Anyway, its always entertaining to watch clueless people and the answers here were fun too. Keep it comming. So if we were to use your faceless toon as an example... 1. 100% of all bots can not be eliminated 2. Most people could not afford your set up So I think we covered this already. Killing your average bot... Is... Easy enough (TM)


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