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Eternum Praetorian
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54
1. Anyone with moderate programming skill can generate a "bot" recognizer that would identify known macros as they run on your PC.
2. Since these macros are part of the public domain (anyone can get them) it would be simple enough to update the "macro fingerprint list" through regular updates.
3. You apply them to the client and from time to time (randomly) check the client integrity to make sure that it has not been altered in any way.
4. Profit. 
But here is the thing... Botters are so prevalent in this game right now that as soon as you suggest any fix to a macro problem you will get flooded with "U mad" "U can't do anything about it" and "how exactly do you know he is a macro?"
What I find in most forums is that when bots come up in discussion, the first people in there trying to derail a forum are those people that use them. They are the first to name call, try to bully, or simply get a thread locked. They start calling people out about baseless accusations, shut up, whatever. Honest gamers don't have problems at all talking or posting about such things, just the botters who have something to hide.
So even if CCP were to impart such a fix, the forums would light up with "Bawww. CCP is invading my computers privacy" where as in fact all they would be doing is identifying known and obvious macro finger prints.
That being said.
Botters please sign off.
I will be taking a roll call.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:32:00 -
[2]
And for his next trick: he'll prove P=NP!
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Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Chevex
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:35:00 -
[3]
Lots of anecdotes and assumptions up in this thread.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:35:00 -
[4]
Posting to confirm that you have discovered the ultimate way to get rid of all macros and bots that has never been suggested before and has alluded every computer security professional for decades. Thanks to your insight botting and macro usage will now wither away and shortly become a thing of the past.
Congrats on your great achievement.
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Eternum Praetorian
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:36:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Chevex
Lots of anecdotes and assumptions up in this thread.
Nope it would work just fine, this is pretty basic stuff.
Chevex says "here"
Next!
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Kristina Vanszar
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54
1. Anyone with moderate programming skill can generate a "bot" recognizer that would identify known macros as they run on your PC.
2. Since these macros are part of the public domain (anyone can get them) it would be simple enough to update the "macro fingerprint list" through regular updates.
3. You apply them to the client and from time to time (randomly) check the client integrity to make sure that it has not been altered in any way.
4. Profit.
But here is the thing... Botters are so prevalent in this game right now that as soon as you suggest any fix to a macro problem you will get flooded with "U mad" "U can't do anything about it" and "how exactly do you know he is a macro?"
What I find in most forums is that when bots come up in discussion, the first people in there trying to derail a forum are those people that use them. They are the first to name call, try to bully, or simply get a thread locked. They start calling people out about baseless accusations, shut up, whatever. Honest gamers don't have problems at all talking or posting about such things, just the botters who have something to hide.
So even if CCP were to impart such a fix, the forums would light up with "Bawww. CCP is invading my computers privacy" where as in fact all they would be doing is identifying known and obvious macro finger prints.
That being said.
Botters please sign off.
I will be taking a roll call.
TBH, this is what CCP started doing right before fanfest ^^
works pretty well as i can see it.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:42:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Yuki Kulotsuki on 18/04/2011 19:46:16
Srs poast: they already do fingerprinting in the form of identifying behavior patterns. They are also going to be adding a system that monitors for any process that hooks directly into the EVE process and ID those as bots. Expect possible false positives for screen recording apps and voice comm overlays.
--
Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:45:00 -
[8]
I would like to see it happen if it is possible.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
T'Laar Bok
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:07:00 -
[9]
But I have this program always running on my PC to do stuff because I'm disabled, it helps a lot.
Does that mean I'll be banned from eve?
Can I submit medical documentation to CCP to get an exemption? How long will it take? Can I appeal if they say no?
Will I constantly be monitored to ensure I use it for good, not evil?
Have I just incriminated myself and be banned shortly?
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:15:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 18/04/2011 20:15:28
Originally by: T'Laar Bok
But I have this program always running on my PC to do stuff because I'm disabled, it helps a lot.
Does that mean I'll be banned from eve?
Can I submit medical documentation to CCP to get an exemption? How long will it take? Can I appeal if they say no?
Will I constantly be monitored to ensure I use it for good, not evil?
Have I just incriminated myself and be banned shortly?
If you can not do it with your own hands then it should not be allowed for use in game, so my unwarrented unsolicited answer is yes.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:17:00 -
[11]
Someone has never heard of VMware.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:25:00 -
[12]
Trollollolololololololol
'Tis a good day to be a troll, I guess.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
1. Anyone with moderate programming skill can generate a "bot" recognizer that would identify known macros as they run on your PC.
If it were that easy, the RIAA, MPAA, and various games companies would be beating a path to your door to license your unbeatable DRM.
Quote:
3. You apply them to the client and from time to time (randomly) check the client integrity to make sure that it has not been altered in any way.
What do you do when the client integrity check call is intercepted/compromised?
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"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: T'Laar Bok
But I have this program always running on my PC to do stuff because I'm disabled, it helps a lot.
Does that mean I'll be banned from eve?
Can I submit medical documentation to CCP to get an exemption? How long will it take? Can I appeal if they say no?
Will I constantly be monitored to ensure I use it for good, not evil?
Have I just incriminated myself and be banned shortly?
Youve actually touched on a gray area CCP has yet to illuminate. The Synergy keyboard falls into this area too. In the past its been:
If you issue a command and the game does something, that's OK.
If you issue a command and the game does many somethings over and over, or does some long drawn out sequence that would let you move away from the computer while it kept playing the game, that's bad.
But that was then. This is now, and CCP Sreegs has not said where the line between convenience (or for some just playability) and macroing is. (In some other thread a poster mentioned that many games put the line at 5 seconds. That is its OK if you hit a hot key, and whatever commands go to the game are completed in 5 seconds or less.)
But there is this: CCP is NOT looking at what software you are running on your computer. CCP Sreegs said he is only concerned with the security of the client and CCP's servers. Bots that mess with the client code get caught by looking for code mods. Bots that use keyboard and mouse emulation and screen scraping get caught by pattern recognition. CCP cannot tell you got a macro program, but if you use it to make a bot, then the pattern recognizer will find you.
So what does someone with disabilities to do? Well, don't set up a macro that allows you to enter a command then sit back and watch the macro play the game. Beyond that, I really don't know.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: stoicfaux
What do you do when the client integrity check call is intercepted/compromised?
I'd assume you'd drop connection to the client. OP is still a fool.
--
Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:42:00 -
[16]
No offense, but do you even know how a macro works?
Macros and bots can be programed to manipulate your mouse and keyboard only. This means that a macro can run any eve client set up a certian LEGAL way, and be running without messing with the client integrity at all.
That's what makes them so hard to detect. I'm not trying to defend bot use by any means, but it's not as simple as just checking the client for alterations or corruption.
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Minarete
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54
1. Anyone with moderate programming skill can generate a "bot" recognizer that would identify known macros as they run on your PC.
You will find a large segment of Computer owners, that will take great exception to anyone checking "Other" software running on their machine, part of the basic freedom thing in the US, other countries, who knows what they expect.
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
2. Since these macros are part of the public domain (anyone can get them) it would be simple enough to update the "macro fingerprint list" through regular updates.
I am no expert on Bot Software, but I believe at least some of them are "licensed" and far from being public domain, a bit of gray area for me though, I just do not know for sure.
.
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peroxide chase
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:59:00 -
[18]
Bot identification server side by complex bayesian networks works. Not complex software madness that will be circumvented or cause end user issues.
It works but is time intensive, expensive and requires massive event logging to an efficient indexer(such as splunk). The difficult part is establishing relationship points(user actions, identified by exclusion) and mapping them with weight. You can even build an authority engine on top of this all that creates signatures and scores against user activity, then flags for account actions (bans or review depending on score).
Accuracy is tuned based on time/number of observations, bots run for extended periods of time making them inherently easier to identify.
This isn't theory crafting, it works and its something I use daily to hunt botnets & spam, hopefully its what they are doing. I operate at 21-25m events per hour indexed and pulling bots out is much easier than it sounds once the logs are understood.
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Eternum Praetorian
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Posted - 2011.04.18 21:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
No offense, but do you even know how a macro works?
Macros and bots can be programed to manipulate your mouse and keyboard only. This means that a macro can run any eve client set up a certian LEGAL way, and be running without messing with the client integrity at all.
That's what makes them so hard to detect. I'm not trying to defend bot use by any means, but it's not as simple as just checking the client for alterations or corruption.
Yes I do.
And yes this process can be recognized.
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Eternum Praetorian
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Posted - 2011.04.18 21:51:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 21:57:09
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
Originally by: stoicfaux
What do you do when the client integrity check call is intercepted/compromised?
I'd assume you'd drop connection to the client. OP is still a fool.
No.
You get an E-Mail saying "Your client has registered macro (something something) By (so and so) corporation/website. Cease and desist now or further action will be taken."
And as for being a fool, just because you lack knowledge and vision does not make someone else a fool just because you say so.
Identifying client side Macro processes would not require a very complex program, and could easily be included into the EULA. 99% of all fair playing MMO players from EVE to WOW would have no problem with a marco identifier added to their client. Ofc the macro users will scream bloody murder about "privacy" even though it would not be gathering any information from your computer beyond known and active macro's while logged into EVE Online.
And that last part is the real problem...
Botters cry about it and the all everyone else hears is "Spy on my computer" Then they ofc (having no real knowledge about computers or how the program works) end up getting all paranoid about the idea ultimately don't want it either.
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Jack Tronic
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:02:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 18/04/2011 22:02:38
The fingerprints I assume would be checksums of some sort of the process and well those are really really easy to spoof, it's called exe padding. You can append random data to the end of exes to change their checksums, on the fly dynamically as well.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
99% of all fair playing MMO players from EVE to WOW would have no problem with a marco identifier added to their client.
Nice no-true-scotsman there.
Paranoia is reasonably justified given the history of game company "extras" bundled into software.
Even with those kind of "bonus" programs running there are still bots and hacks running wild in the most successful and popular of games.
--
Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Shawna Gray
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 19:29:54
1. Anyone with moderate programming skill can generate a "bot" recognizer that would identify known macros as they run on your PC.
Too bad game companies only hire people with crap programming skills, as there are bots in every game.
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Chevex
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:20:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 22:22:12
ITT OP stands in front of the mirror, hands on his hips, chest out, wearing an egotistical grin as he says to himself under his breath "God damn it I'm awesome. I am just bursting with ideas. I could fix the universe. It's just so simple. I don't know why all these programmers are so stupid."
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Eternum Praetorian
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:25:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 22:25:58
Originally by: Chevex
Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 22:22:12
ITT OP stands in front of the mirror, hands on his hips, chest out, wearing an egotistical grin as he says to himself under his breath "God damn it I'm awesome. I am just bursting with ideas. I could fix the universe. It's just so simple. I don't know why all these programmers are so stupid."
Your describing most of the eve player base everyday they log on
I also think there are plenty of smart people running around this forum (and in game) who could do some great things for eve in terms of balance and content... way better then CCP is doing right now.
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Chevex
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Originally by: Chevex
Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 22:22:12
ITT OP stands in front of the mirror, hands on his hips, chest out, wearing an egotistical grin as he says to himself under his breath "God damn it I'm awesome. I am just bursting with ideas. I could fix the universe. It's just so simple. I don't know why all these programmers are so stupid."
Your describing most of the eve player base everyday they log on
Unfortunately.
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T'Laar Bok
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
You get an E-Mail saying "Your client has registered macro (something something) By (so and so) corporation/website. Cease and desist now or further action will be taken."
But... but... but... I need it, my motor control is getting worse! I cant accurately point my mouse and you wouldn't believe how spastic my right clicking finger goes off. The keyboard shortcuts are minimal so I need the macros to move the mouse through the menus and click for me! I even use it for common words 'cause I keep missing the keys or doing too manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
Please CCP have a heart!
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Eternum Praetorian
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:29:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 22:29:59
And how about this stance that Bots are 100% impossible to deal with under any circumstances is a complete load of crap.
Propagated by people like you...
Edit:
As you can see botters are like ninjas... they are freakin everywhere.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:35:00 -
[29]
Lalalalalalalala. Everyone who disagrees is a nasty botter. Lalalalalalalalala.
--
Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Eternum Praetorian
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:39:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
Lalalalalalalala. Everyone who disagrees is a nasty botter. Lalalalalalalalala.
Yuki Kulotsuki classic response TBFH 
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