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Rindon Callsar
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:42:00 -
[1]
I am looking to do the push for Cruiser 5 but have not decided which route I want to go first. I mostly would be doing small gang pvp and lvl4 missions. In small gang I will most likely be flying a force recon and for missions I would either be flying the Sac or Ishtar. I have a an even spread of skills between gunnery/missiles/drones.
My question would be, which would be best for each application first? I am leaning towards Gallente since, from what I hear, the Arazu is a beast in small gang pvp and that I could practically afk lvl 4s in an Ishtar. From what I see as well the Proteus is the best t3 for cloaky ganks.
On the other hand I hear that the curse/pilgrim are extremely good in gang and solo pvp, the sac is a beast of tank (and I love missiles), and the legion, well the legion from what I hear just sucks balls. Lol.
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.20 03:42:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Rindon Callsar My question would be, which would be best for each application first?
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
If I was in your position (wanting to PvP in recons and PvE in HACs) Gallente Cruiser V. The Sacri has trouble with applied DPS thanks to HAMs, while the Ishtar can sport a full flight of heavies/sentries, putting it on par with an AFK Domi in terms of mission-running. As for recons, in solo the Curse and Pilgrim can be devastating, but depend upon good target selection (in simple terms: don't fight Drakes) or backup DPS. There are very few things out there an Arazu or Lachesis could realistically solo so your target selection is going to be very, very limited. In small gangs the Curse's utility is nice but situational (neuting Abaddons seems like a good idea until you realize most have cap boosters, are straight buffer tanked and put out 800 DPS). Whereas the bonused scram/point range on a Arazu is always going to be welcome.
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DarkAegix
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Posted - 2011.04.20 03:53:00 -
[3]
One word: Diemost
Why invest skills into Gallente? They don't have much going for them.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.04.20 04:18:00 -
[4]
Originally by: DarkAegix One word: Diemost
Why invest skills into Gallente? They don't have much going for them.
One bad boat doesn't make a bad lineup. Proteus + Ishtar should be enough reason to pick it over Amar racial cruiser lineup.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:22:00 -
[5]
Dare to be different. Gallente Cruiser V.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Rindon Callsar
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Posted - 2011.04.20 06:17:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Rindon Callsar My question would be, which would be best for each application first?
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
If I was in your position (wanting to PvP in recons and PvE in HACs) Gallente Cruiser V. The Sacri has trouble with applied DPS thanks to HAMs, while the Ishtar can sport a full flight of heavies/sentries, putting it on par with an AFK Domi in terms of mission-running. As for recons, in solo the Curse and Pilgrim can be devastating, but depend upon good target selection (in simple terms: don't fight Drakes) or backup DPS. There are very few things out there an Arazu or Lachesis could realistically solo so your target selection is going to be very, very limited. In small gangs the Curse's utility is nice but situational (neuting Abaddons seems like a good idea until you realize most have cap boosters, are straight buffer tanked and put out 800 DPS). Whereas the bonused scram/point range on a Arazu is always going to be welcome.
Yeah I am leaning towards Gallente. I mostly will not be solo pvp at all as I am still pretty wet behind the ears after returning from a 2+ year absence. The group I will be pvp'ing with does lack in the scram/pointing department at the moment and I can field an Arazu in a few weeks. Problem will be gaining practice in the ship since they tend to run 120-140mil atm. Not something I want to run out and get popped my first flight.
Also, is the Ishtar > Dominix for PvE then? I was thinking of taking Gallente BS to 4 as I have Amarr at 4 already for the abby/apoc, but would rather not waste the training if the Ishtar will surpass the Dominix in everything.
Thanks in advance again for any responses.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.20 06:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Target Painter on 20/04/2011 06:50:21
Originally by: Rindon Callsar Problem will be gaining practice in the ship since they tend to run 120-140mil atm. Not something I want to run out and get popped my first flight.
IMHO, the closest thing to flying a Arazu/Lachesis is something like a nano'ed LR cruiser or BC. The main difference is instead of F1ing to apply DPS, you are F1ing to get a point. The skills with regards to situational awareness, staying within range, knowing when to GTFO, etc. are going to cross-over a bit between the two.
The downside of this is that Gallente don't have a good, nano LR cruiser or BC to practice with.
Quote: Also, is the Ishtar > Dominix for PvE then?
Depends on your flavor of PvE. If you have your Domi fit for AFKing missions, the Ishtar is the exact same, except you orbit a can. They have the same drone bandwidth available, same DPS, same isk/h. If your Domi is fit with rails and damage mods and you can be assed to occasionally lock a new target and press F1, the Ishtar falls behind a bit. If you are running lowsec/nullsec plexes, the Ishtar is superior due to it's much better tank.
Quote: I was thinking of taking Gallente BS to 4 as I have Amarr at 4 already for the abby/apoc, but would rather not waste the training if the Ishtar will surpass the Dominix in everything.
It depends on how and where you PvE.
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Dark Voynix
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2011.04.20 07:17:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dark Voynix on 20/04/2011 07:17:22 Good reasons to train gallente cruiser 5: Ishtar Proteus
Good reason to train amarr cruiser 5: Zealot Curse Pilgrim Guardian
Honestly the ishtar its an awesome ship, but the other gallente t2 cruisers are quite meh. On the other hand amarr give you a wider list of good ships. Then if you want to go t3 then proteus is better than legion, but both sucks at pve.
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2011.04.20 16:41:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dark Voynix Edited by: Dark Voynix on 20/04/2011 07:17:22 Good reasons to train gallente cruiser 5: Ishtar Proteus Arazu Lachesis Oneiros Cynabal
Good reason to train amarr cruiser 5: Zealot Curse Pilgrim Guardian
Honestly the ishtar its an awesome ship, but the other gallente t2 cruisers are quite meh. On the other hand amarr give you a wider list of good ships. Then if you want to go t3 then proteus is better than legion, but both sucks at pve.
Fixed.
Pre-Edit: Oneiros - yeah it's not a a Guardian with it's handy cap transfers but it can run as a solo logi with 3 large rr (guardian cannot really) and in a group with a couple of Guardians is still ok.
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Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.20 16:47:00 -
[10]
train both , and then go for minmatar + caldari
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Berendas
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.20 16:50:00 -
[11]
I have both, but I trained Gallente Cruiser 5 first which was a big waste of time. Of the two I have used Amarr Cruiser 5 WAY more in solo/small gang PVP. The only ships that aren't spectacular from Amarr are the Sacrilege and Legion, and they are both still decent. T2 Gallente Cruisers simply can't compare in the number of useful ships to Amarr.
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Fredfredbug4
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.20 17:13:00 -
[12]
I personally would go Gallente Cruiser 5 because to be honest, Amarr don't really have the best cruisers.
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Voith
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Posted - 2011.04.21 02:49:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rindon Callsar I am looking to do the push for Cruiser 5 but have not decided which route I want to go first. I mostly would be doing small gang pvp and lvl4 missions. In small gang I will most likely be flying a force recon and for missions I would either be flying the Sac or Ishtar. I have a an even spread of skills between gunnery/missiles/drones.
My question would be, which would be best for each application first? I am leaning towards Gallente since, from what I hear, the Arazu is a beast in small gang pvp and that I could practically afk lvl 4s in an Ishtar. From what I see as well the Proteus is the best t3 for cloaky ganks.
On the other hand I hear that the curse/pilgrim are extremely good in gang and solo pvp, the sac is a beast of tank (and I love missiles), and the legion, well the legion from what I hear just sucks balls. Lol.
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Invalid question.
PvP = Minmatar
Next?
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.04.21 06:07:00 -
[14]
Amarr Guardian The preferred armor logistic. Having a functional cap chain is great. Its slow, but it can easily keep up with armor fleets. The cap chain can support caps by capping them up and provides neut resistance so energy ewar wont shut logis down.
Zealot A great sniper hac and a great ahac. On the flipside it sucks for solo. It provides good damage at good ranges with good tracking. Solo its lack of drones means its going to die against the first competent frigate pilot it finds without bending over backwards in fittings.
Sacrilege A bad ship. Its bonuses just don't quite come together. They push it towards a dual rep HAM boat. It has difficulty having a good active tank and solid DPS. Even solo an active tank isn't always the best choice. When you get into a gang an active tank is just bad. It obviously can't be a nanoship which limits its use as a solo/small gang ship because even an active armor tank won't be fast enough to avoid being ganked. It also isn't that great in gangs as an armor ship. The zealot is what you want.
Curse A good ship. Low DPS output but it can field either a buffer shield tank or a buffer armor tank. It can firmly tackle out as far as it can point. It wrecks enemy active tanks which are the primary thing you'll find solo killing carebears. It wrecks frigates. Its a thin in a brawl which isn't helped by its DPS. Not having to venture into web/scram range and its neuts make it a nice solo boat.
Pilgrim Losses a lot compared to the curse. Its basically the same minus neut range plus a covert cloak. Its still good for ganking ratters but its awful compared to the curse for semi consensual pvp engagements because it has to get too close in without enough DPS. If you armor tank it it will do pretty crappy jumping into gatecamps despite its covert cloak.
Legion This T3 doesn't have much to recommend it. If you want to sit in a safespot somewhere running armor mods its great. Otherwise it looks like a sorry excuse for a T3. There isn't anything particularly wrong with it. Its component parts aren't horrible. The sum of parts is just kind of disappointing compared to the other T3s.
Absolution A great armor battlecruiser. High HP, good DPS, solid range. Exactly what an armor battlecruiser should be. BUT - Armor battlecruisers aren't very useful. An armor cruiser is hard to hit. An armor BS brings the most tank'n'gank possible for trading away maneuverability. Most people don't find they have a reason to buy one. Zealot for ahacs. Abaddon for armor BS. Tank'n'gank armor BC aren't used in any popular fleet composition.
Damnation The ultimate armor gangboosting ship for mains. Its got a ****ton of HP. People will say the legion is better for gangboosting, but they are talking about an unprobable alt. Those are ****ing boring to run on your main. So you bring a damnation and spend your time KM whoring.
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Skinae
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Posted - 2011.04.21 06:09:00 -
[15]
The ishtar is quite awesome, so is the Arazu and Lachesis. Phobos is fine too.
Amarr is prettier, so its up to you.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.04.21 06:29:00 -
[16]
Gallente Diemost Thin, high DPS cruiser that needs to be at point blank range. Instant primary. You see FCs target things that are close to the fleet because everyone in the fleet will be able to hit it. They target things that have low EHP and high DPS to reduce the incoming DPS to their fleet as rapidly as possible. After the falcon dies, then its the Diemost's turn. The Diemost makes a crappy nanoship. Its an undesirable ahac and a mediocre sniper hac. If you really want to commit to point blank fights with massive DPS use a Brutix. You wallet will thank you.
Ishtar This ship used to be great before projectiles got boosted. It used to be one of the highest DPS on target nanoship in the game. Now its only good. Nice DPS. Nice tank in shield or armor buffer. Drone utility. (ECM flights and RR drones) Not the greatest ahac because leaving sentries behind sucks. Not the greatest sniper hac for the same reason. It has its niches as a nanoship, for ratting and small armor gangs.
Lachesis Sensor damps suck.Thats fine. Pointing people at ranges used by modern sniper gangs is awesome. Expect to be primaried a lot by an enemy sniper gang, but also expect the satisfaction of knowing the enemy couldn't just warp out when they got redboxed because of you. The tackle is nice in small gangs but not too special.
Arazu Everything good about the lach. A little more expensive but has a covops cloak. Better armor tanker with 4 lows but crappier shield tanker. Its also great if obvious for Black Ops drops.
Proteus Huge EHP, good blaster DPS, and a long point/scram. The proteus is an ideal armor-blaster design. Its just a good ship. Not good for ratting. But very nice for armor brawling. If you got a shiny wallet and the Diemost appeals to you. Just save up a bit more and buy a proteus. You wont regret it even before calculating the ability to change to a cloaky interdiction nullified setup.
Astarte This ship sucks. Its flyable but it sucks. Active tanking is fine sometimes. But you shouldn't solo in a command ship. Equals useless bonus. I've actually seen it best used when shield-nano fit like a hurricane. But at that point if you have a choice you should be in a Sleipnir.
Eos This ship really sucks. It has 1/3 the EHP of a damnation. Command ships are fleet ships. By definition an active tank is less than ideal for a fleet. A long time ago it used to have 5 heavy drones and kick ass as a brawler. Now its a crappy ship with really crappy ganglink modules.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.04.21 06:37:00 -
[17]
****. I forgot the Phobos and Devoter. They both function as usable Hictors. Beyond that I don't know enough to comment. Not very exciting ships unless you need a Hictor. And Hictors have an even worse reputation of getting stuck inside their own bubble and dying. Dictors for standard fleets. Hictors when you need to tackle caps. No need to buy a more expensive coffin then you have to.
I recommend thinking about your playstyle, then figuring out which ships on the list fit it best. There is no 'best' only 'best for you.' Although I will say Amarr are in ascendance at the moment with no Gallente buff in site. Blasters need some love.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.21 09:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita ****. I forgot the Phobos and Devoter. They both function as usable Hictors. Beyond that I don't know enough to comment. Not very exciting ships unless you need a Hictor. And Hictors have an even worse reputation of getting stuck inside their own bubble and dying. Dictors for standard fleets. Hictors when you need to tackle caps. No need to buy a more expensive coffin then you have to.
The hictors are fairly homogenized, minor differences: Devoter can slap on more plates (around a third more EHP), the Phobos has more room for ECCM (resisting ECM Bursts) and cap boosters (tackled caps neut the hell out of you). Neither of them is bad.
And while you'll probably get popped in your own bubble in a hictor, a dictor is the only ship in the game where you can ***** on both your ship and your pod lossmail. In fact, the usual fate for a dictor pilot is being podded in his own bubble.
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Drexit
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Posted - 2011.04.21 13:24:00 -
[19]
I have very little experience with pvp, so I will respond in the context of pve, both high level (incursions, c6 wh), and level 4s. I have both amarr and gallente spec'ed toons - max tanking skills, near max gunnery, near max drones, cruiser 5, t3s. I greatly prefer the amarr options. I find it very difficult to apply blaster dps, and rails are just too light. The drone options are nice, but in incursions, you can't use sentries, so that subsystem is invalid for this comparison. I think scorch is the saving grace - it means I can typically apply my dps instantly, without adjusting my tank orbit, rather than mwd'ing all over the place.
When it comes to BS, I have a better time with Gallente - blaster / shield domi, blaster vindi are both awesome ships.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.04.21 15:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Target Painter And while you'll probably get popped in your own bubble in a hictor, a dictor is the only ship in the game where you can ***** on both your ship and your pod lossmail. In fact, the usual fate for a dictor pilot is being podded in his own bubble.
That happens. Dictor pilots don't need expensive implants to operate. So getting exploded and podded in a Dictor might be a 40-50 mil loss. Getting exploded in a Hictor might come in at around 200. Depending on the situation tank might not do much to save you.
Then theres the question of mobility. "I want a bubble 60km away now!" is something an FC might reasonably request but only a Dictor is going to do it in a decent time. "I want you towait for us to get in warp then drop bubble on the out gate so the guys chasing us land on the edge of the bubble," is something that happens too. Hictor can't do that. Dictor can happily bubble up and cloak if he didn't die doing the bubble. Hictor can't do that.
On the other hand Dictors are pretty ****ty for tackling caps by comparison.
If you don't believe me that Dictors are the general choice of most pilots and FCs when not messing with caps just do some flying around 0.0 and compare the number of Dictors you see vs the number of Hictors.
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Jaik7
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Posted - 2011.04.21 16:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Originally by: Target Painter And while you'll probably get popped in your own bubble in a hictor, a dictor is the only ship in the game where you can ***** on both your ship and your pod lossmail. In fact, the usual fate for a dictor pilot is being podded in his own bubble.
That happens. Dictor pilots don't need expensive implants to operate. So getting exploded and podded in a Dictor might be a 40-50 mil loss. Getting exploded in a Hictor might come in at around 200. Depending on the situation tank might not do much to save you.
Then theres the question of mobility. "I want a bubble 60km away now!" is something an FC might reasonably request but only a Dictor is going to do it in a decent time. "I want you towait for us to get in warp then drop bubble on the out gate so the guys chasing us land on the edge of the bubble," is something that happens too. Hictor can't do that. Dictor can happily bubble up and cloak if he didn't die doing the bubble. Hictor can't do that.
On the other hand Dictors are pretty ****ty for tackling caps by comparison.
If you don't believe me that Dictors are the general choice of most pilots and FCs when not messing with caps just do some flying around 0.0 and compare the number of Dictors you see vs the number of Hictors.
dictors also are very good solo. providing you can find a sad idiot flying alone in a small ship, the dictor will be able to eat his frigate and his pod. if they bring a blob down on you, you're small enough that you can (usually) get away.
but this topic is about cruisers.
Originally by: CCP Shadow The trolls have been vanquished.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.22 01:12:00 -
[22]
if you are going to invest real time and patience and are willing to wait for the buff and be waiting at the starting line with max skills - then Gallente - be be prepared to wait.
Otherwise Amarr - zelot (gang), curse (single best solo pvper in the game hands down), guardian (logistics) -----------
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mama guru
Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.22 17:13:00 -
[23]
Lachesis provides a long point for shieldhac gangs which is useful.
Gallente Cruiser V is awesome because:
Lachesis Oneiros Maxed Vexor Ishtar for PVE Cynabal Falloff
Crosstrain to Minmatar aswell for the carryover to dramiel/cynabal/machariel. Amarr is useful but offers alot less for solo pvp. Yeah the Guardian and the Zealot are awesome and staples in armored warfare and the Curse is good in small gangs, but don't get them unless you are planning a prolonged stay in an alliance/corp that regularly fields these since they are not that useful otherwise. _________ EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.04.22 18:03:00 -
[24]
Both are valid choices. If initial focus is on PvE then go Gallente first, if pew then Amarr. Reason being that Amarr T2 cruiser line has no equal and is not likely to any time soon and are particularly well suited for gang work.
Gallente is due a buff through hybrid changes (SoonÖ), which will hopefully make them the cream of the crop (and pants) once again.
Originally by: DarkAegix One word: Diemost
I'll hear your word and raise you another word: Vigilant.
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Izzy Alistair
Amarr Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus New Horizon Enterprise's
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Posted - 2011.04.23 05:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Both are valid choices. If initial focus is on PvE then go Gallente first, if pew then Amarr. Reason being that Amarr T2 cruiser line has no equal and is not likely to any time soon and are particularly well suited for gang work.
I completely agree, I can't wait to get into a Pilgrim.
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