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Is it time for a new CFS?

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The Altmeister	Posted - 2005.02.08 16:26:00 - [1] Once FIX in Querious and FA in Delve have been removed, would it not be time to create a new CFS? This would encourage pilots and corps back into 0.0 and with the current Military corps in operation there, there would mean fewer pirates? I am sure some of the old CFS leaders are still around to help organise things? What does everyone think?
Wuubaa	Posted - 2005.02.08 16:30:00 - [2] No. Itll go **** up again.
Lord Sidon	Posted - 2005.02.08 16:33:00 - [3] lmao, it's the pirates that are trying to kick us out, so what do you think. And alot of the old CFS leaders are in FIX.... unless you mean Conrad who started a war then resigned and ran to hide in SE space . . .
unkown soldier	Posted - 2005.02.08 16:33:00 - [4] CFS is dead for a reason.
AvanCade	Posted - 2005.02.08 16:34:00 - [5] Ok first. CFS leadership failed. If they come back in the way they where, im sure many people will not like it. Second, what militairy corporations ? Shinra ? BoB and co ? You expect them to fight for other peoples freedom ? Hmm small chance. But always possible ofcourse. Personally, i like the idea, but then everyone must stand on their own feet, aka own militairy etc. And ofcourse, all old CFS corporations have settled down in FA SE and Xetic, even some in FoE.
STRICKERO	Posted - 2005.02.08 16:36:00 - [6] Edited by: STRICKERO on 08/02/2005 16:36:42 Originally by: unkown soldier CFS is dead for a reason. True, so let it rest in peace. I'm so ****ed off ... why dont you use your main to ask a question, mr.alt ? is it because you are nothing ? or is it because you're ashamed of yourself ? edit : spelling ------------------------------------------------ http://nemesis.game-host.org/nemesis/index.php
The Altmeister	Posted - 2005.02.08 16:40:00 - [7] Originally by: AvanCade Ok first. CFS leadership failed. If they come back in the way they where, im sure many people will not like it. Second, what militairy corporations ? Shinra ? BoB and co ? You expect them to fight for other peoples freedom ? Hmm small chance. But always possible ofcourse. Thanks for the answer, I was thinking more along the lines of having the military funded by station taxes, so if Shinra or Bob defenf CFS, they are paid to do it. Stricker0, I am posting with an alt for a reason, he is called altmeister, so he is clearly recognisable as one. If you have nothing constructive to say, then please go and bother someone else's thread!
S3VYN	Posted - 2005.02.08 17:02:00 - [8] If FIX and FA are removed from anywhere it only reverses roles, FIX becomes the new "pirates" and whoever unseated us would become the new "tenants." I doubt anyone who controls the territory will allow the "freeloading" types. A business district, perhaps, but not in the model of the old CFS. ------------------------------------- // The views expressed by this poster are not the views of the poster's corporation, alliance, planet or television network... but they should be.
AvanCade	Posted - 2005.02.08 17:27:00 - [9] Originally by: The Altmeister Originally by: AvanCade Ok first. CFS leadership failed. If they come back in the way they where, im sure many people will not like it. Second, what militairy corporations ? Shinra ? BoB and co ? You expect them to fight for other peoples freedom ? Hmm small chance. But always possible ofcourse. Thanks for the answer, I was thinking more along the lines of having the military funded by station taxes, so if Shinra or Bob defenf CFS, they are paid to do it. Stricker0, I am posting with an alt for a reason, he is called altmeister, so he is clearly recognisable as one. If you have nothing constructive to say, then please go and bother someone else's thread! Station tax is variable, so you wont have a steady income and so you cant be sure to be able to cover your efforts and losses
Kalast Raven	Posted - 2005.02.08 17:40:00 - [10] No. Time for something new, instead. ------- K. Raven
MAXSuicide	Posted - 2005.02.08 17:55:00 - [11] Leadership failed cfs...lack of backbone throughout the year(s)... but there was also the lack of interest from locals that failed the cfs...it depended upon locals standing up to fight...many just wanted to get their indies out in times of trouble....of course this wasnt all that killed cfs... My vids and random stuff
S3VYN	Posted - 2005.02.08 18:00:00 - [12] It seemed the way the CFS worked was that the efforts of a few provided the benefits to many. In other words, the top 5% of people in CFS gave everything they had and gained (almost) nothing while the other 95% gave very little and gained a lot. In general, it's the members of that 95% who are still saying things about reforming, how they were betrayed, etc, etc, etc. ------------------------------------- // The views expressed by this poster are not the views of the poster's corporation, alliance, planet or television network... but they should be.
heavyg	Posted - 2005.02.08 18:12:00 - [13] Is this a , "can i come down and mine while everyone else looks after me question"!!
Drogon	Posted - 2005.02.08 18:18:00 - [14] the problem with the CFS is that it cannot exsist for the simple fact that only PVPers should be in a 0.0 alliance. there were too many carebears in the CFS. god im glad it's dead. bottom line if you dont pvp you dont belong in 0.0. Director, Divine Retribution
S3VYN	Posted - 2005.02.08 18:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Drogon the problem with the CFS is that it cannot exsist for the simple fact that only PVPers should be in a 0.0 alliance. there were too many carebears in the CFS. god im glad it's dead. bottom line if you dont pvp you dont belong in 0.0. Nice, nice sig. I love the font used on your name. Class. ------------------------------------- // The views expressed by this poster are not the views of the poster's corporation, alliance, planet or television network... but they should be.
Damajink	Posted - 2005.02.08 18:57:00 - [16] The CFS idea just doesn't work. Sure, people might be onboard at the start, but eventually they realise that they are spending time, isk and ships protecting people who offer nothing in return.
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2005.02.08 19:19:00 - [17] Originally by: The Altmeister I am sure some of the old CFS leaders are still around to help organise things? The last thing any alliance needs is Conrad the Absent and Liquidcool the great empire mission runner at the helm. "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Mrissa Easeah	Posted - 2005.02.08 19:25:00 - [18] Its a delicate balance, very hard to reach without someone -extremely- powerful deciding to be benevolent. The problem with only PvP having access to 0.0 space is that they're not the ones who need it. Rare minerals and ores don't offer up much challenge for PvP'ers, but are necessary for the industrialists, builders, miners, etc. The moons most worthwhile for POS based manufacturing are all in 0.0 space - something, again, that doesn't interest most die-hard PvP'ers, but is necessary for Tech II production. Face it, you can -fight- anywhere. You -have- to fight to claim and defend 0.0, but you still need builders to exploit that space once you have it, to make the most of its wealth and resources. The obvious exception is PvE, where the PvP'ers can make the bulk of their income while not actively engaged in fighting the enemy, live off the land, and make a killing selling named mods on the market. 0.0's almost pointless, empty real estate without builders to make it pay off. That being said, every builder investing time in 0.0 space needs to consider the value as well, and defend it if the time comes, instead of relying solely on their faction's PvP core. This is the weakness of a CFS model at present - there's no guarantees or agreements that the miners will mothball their gear and get out there and fight when the chips are down. Its one of the first changes we made sure of when we formed FIX - all members have a stake and realize that and will add their guns to the QDF in times of need. Possible 'Free Space' Protectorate Ideas - Any future 'Free Space' model probably has to have the stipulation made that 'If you come into this space, you're volunteering your time and PvP guns to protect it when necessary. For every mining or transport pilot active in the region for a given corp, it must contribute x% (round up) of combat ready pilots to the region. No ands, ifs, or buts. Failure to comply would mean ROS or KOS. Assign a quartermaster of the fleet or some such position to interview the users of said space, and make sure they're holding up their end of the bargain. Simple 'mark I eyeball' and testimony of working combat pilots can also help to verify who's keeping up their end of the bargain. - Government should be kept to a minimum, streamlined, with a possible (dictatorship, triumvirate, president, directorship) able to make decisions that people trust and follow. Hard balance to achieve. Have justenough people in this position who can make informed decisions to cover your timezones. 3-4 would be ideal. Any more would stymie your ability to act in crisis, or lead to leaders contradicting each other. - If 'laws' are necessary beyond the few basic givins (no piracy, asteroid scanners, mutual defense, etc.), have your (Senate, Council, Parliament, whatever) require not a majority vote, but a 2/3rds, 3/4th even a unanimous vote to prevent rampant legalese and changes to the government. Any law, change, or agreement that fails to please a VAST majority of those with interests will, and should, die before becoming a pain in the tuckus. - Pick a DEFENSIBLE location. One that has access to empire, but also with a limited number of entrances (no more than 2 ... 1 would be ideal. Crossroads areas are difficult to defend, and, more importantly, easy to flee!. Not good for keeping your own pilots committed to the task at hand, and not good for stemming the tide of raiders that will come through your space as they'll have multiple options to escape your wrath. This, probably as much as any other reason, was what lead to the inevitable demise of CFS - the vaunted 'smuggler's gates', making lateral wars not only possible, but inevitable. Now that the smuggler's gates are in, a new better 'crucible' could be found to plant the seeds of Free Space.
Rehen	Posted - 2005.02.08 20:07:00 - [19] LOL the main problem with the cfs idea is that nobody wanted to defend it as we wernt alowed to gank all teh random nubs mining are space, and if you want to trace were the only ex cfs pvp corps went try FOE space, and teh ex mining corps iver went to S-E or naped with fix/fa. CFS will not happen again.....
MAXSuicide	Posted - 2005.02.08 20:15:00 - [20] rehen has been converted My vids and random stuff
siim	Posted - 2005.02.08 20:51:00 - [21] Is it time for a new wave of alts
Endless	Posted - 2005.02.08 22:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Drogon the problem with the CFS is that it cannot exsist for the simple fact that only PVPers should be in a 0.0 alliance. there were too many carebears in the CFS. god im glad it's dead. bottom line if you dont pvp you dont belong in 0.0. Thanks Drogon for saying that someone needed to.
Xziled	Posted - 2005.02.08 23:57:00 - [23] cfs hid in period basis behind black avatar and asci , till they got into a scirmish and asci went to stain and cfs had no meatshield to keep them safe anymore =[
Raindrop	Posted - 2005.02.09 00:23:00 - [24] CFS was a nice idea. As far as the free space is concerned. As far as the organisation CFS is concerned (comments about presidents etc). Unfortunatly the structure of the CFS didn't allow for structural decisions to be pushed through. Most of the corps didn't put in any effort in the organisation of the CFS and as such it came down only to the Execs. At the high point of the CFS there were still less then 10 people busy almost full time (when on EvE) with trying to get things organised. 10/600. Many corps weren't interested as corp in the CFS organisation aslong as they could do as they please. Any bill brought in to deal with the internal freeloaders was naturally voted down by those freeloaders. Basically grinding all efforts by the Execs to a halt. Whithout the proper organisation of an alliance it can't stand up to itself. I personally think that a "dictarorial" (elected) structure might work in the CFS(freespace principle). Unfortunatly the CFS(organisational) law was that each corp had a vote. And they used it only when they needed it to the benefit of themselves. The few people that used to voice their opinion ussually weren't in the position to influence that basic flaw in voting. Or weren't interested in achieving this within the law. And unfortunatly it wasn't fitting for any Exec (as far as i know) to work outside of those laws. On a side note. My personal opinion of the CFS structure differs highly from the role i had to play being a CFS Executive. I enjoyed that role but have to admit that i had thoughts about a much harder line. Just as i've heared from every other Exec that i've known in that role. But we were bound by the law. Naturally i'm only speaking about the period where i was in the CFS. I have little to no knowledge of the CFS after we left. Saying any Exec had no back bone, comes down to saying the CFS corps had no backbone to change that situation. But i know exec's are the easy target and gods that are supposed to change anything that's wrong. And when they don't it's always their fault and never the rules they are bound by. heh, I had great fun. Raindrop Trader of low end stuff and NPC goods. Recycler of junk.
Zetar Nightwalker	Posted - 2005.02.09 01:21:00 - [25] Edited by: Zetar Nightwalker on 09/02/2005 01:21:30 Edited by: Zetar Nightwalker on 09/02/2005 01:21:18 Hello Old Friends. The CFS is dead let is rest. And on the remark to the 5% doing the work and the 95% getting the benifits. Drop dead 95% I see you can you see me.
TIvian	Posted - 2005.02.09 01:52:00 - [26] Well IMHO I believe CFS bit off more then they could chew in the first CA vs CFS war. And then didn't learn their lesson the second time either. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) Teh Uber Asheron's Call Bunny Booty WTFPWNZ you!!
Torgrim	Posted - 2005.02.09 02:11:00 - [27] CFS controlled alot of space but had problems controlling it becuse of few PVPers. Maby only claim one region, that might work. "I have seen things that you only could dream about, i have been there"
Sphalerite	Posted - 2005.02.09 02:15:00 - [28] CFS was a well intended idea that was totally at odds with the nature of EVE. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but giving anything that naive a second chance is just asking for trouble. Originally by: TIvian Well IMHO I believe CFS bit off more then they could chew in the first CA vs CFS war. And then didn't learn their lesson the second time either. If by "bit off more than they could chew" you mean "were attacked because CA were bored" then yes, you have a good point. Not that it really matters anymore.
Raindrop	Posted - 2005.02.09 02:27:00 - [29] Originally by: Torgrim CFS controlled alot of space but had problems controlling it becuse of few PVPers. Maby only claim one region, that might work. After the smuggler gates were introduced CFS was doomed. The plans to expand(organisationally) and continue to evolve organisational wise got sidetracked by that CCP move. If i remember correctly CCP have said somewhere that "Free space" didn't fit in their plans for 0.0 space. And they've showed that everytime they added new features back in those days. In the past the only entrance into Querious(formally JK-FIX i think) and below was A2-V27. There were no other options to enter CFS space back then and defence was thought to be relatively simple. With no stations placed in CFS space in the first station round, CFS space wasn't that attractive to anyone. CFS's hopes were for POS release and then develop the regions. And that's when the smuggler gates hit and the stations were placed in CFS space. Raindrop Trader of low end stuff and NPC goods. Recycler of junk.
AvanCade	Posted - 2005.02.09 04:29:00 - [30] CFS, in the way the name says it, cannot be done. If you get it for free, why pay for it (pay in a way of losing ship for fighting for ur space). The freeloader bill they pushed through at the end, was the solution if you ask me, only, they could still not defend themselves against major invasions. That would still need PvPers. And ofcourse, Raindrops Tyranny didnt help either. Raindrop, you talk about CFS not wanted to push through structural changes, but was it not you alone at the rudder because all other counsillors where inactive, and the senate could not overrule you ? Ah yes you where at the rudder... No good word for you mate, no good word.

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