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hired goon
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:10:00 -
[1]
I have been a pvper for most of my Eve career. I know next to nothing about the entire industrial sphere of Eve, including tech II & III manufacturing, POSes and moon mining, R&D, PI, Ice mining, rigs and salvage, even trade. However after the recent publicity surrounding Isk 3.0, I thought I'd have a look and try some stuff out. Then I discovered something.
Crafting in Eve is (almost) pointless as a profession.
Kind of, anyway. Let me explain what I mean. You see it's the profit margins. They don't exist. After looking into a few areas and doing a few calculations I discovered that even though there exists many levels in each manufacturing process (except in tech 1) which involves refining the component minerals, then reactions, then building parts, then building more parts with those parts, then building a ship; none of these areas yields a profit if entered into. It is not the case that after each process the specialist that completes that step marks the price up slightly and passes it on, enabling each participant to gain a small amount of money, as in real life. In fact in my calculations I see that - paradoxically - many items sell for less than the combined price of the component parts.
"but that doesn't make sense" I thought. "Why has the price of my Devoter shot up so much? There must be subjectivity in prices somewhere along the line, someone is making money"
So I looked at every single component mineral, reaction, and process involved in making Devoters. Turns out I was right, but the bit that costs the money is the bit that's inaccessible to most - moon minerals. Specifically for me it was Technetium. So I had a look at the lowsec-moon map list thing and scouted a few Technetium moons, thinking "they can't all be taken, i'll just put a small pos at one it'll be fine, a low-key operation". There was a Goonswarm death star at every one I scouted.
So I don't know why prices are fluctuating - I assume these moon minerals are being kept internal to many alliances or trickled onto the market at prices dictated by wars or somesuch. But it's not just Technetium - every item in Eve that can be built has almost zero profit margins - from tech 1 ships to rigs or boosters. I don't see any incentive to get involved. The "bat" always seems to stop at what's accessible - for tech 2 items its the moon minerals in nullsec held by alliances. The alliances choose the prices. For Tech III, wormhole residents "decide" the prices based on how fast they can run sleeper sites. Tech 1 ships are easy to build and dependent on who can grind or bot low end ores the fastest.
Now this is all fine and it makes sense that each area would be pushed to the extreme. What I'm worried about is just how inaccessible to new players any and all of this is.
In addition I would like your comments on the fact there are no profit margins, and maybe someone could help me figure out how any money is made at all, for example in the market for T1 items, as I have no idea about Eve industry and have just made these preliminary observations. Thanks.
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Ultim8Evil
Black Serpent Technologies
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:11:00 -
[2]
Lol @ "crafting"
GB2WoW
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Iulia Badr Marinela
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:11:00 -
[3]
I guess you are doing it wrong. |
OverlordY
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:13:00 -
[4]
Edited by: OverlordY on 24/04/2011 12:13:11
There is a good few low sec system with every last single moon has a goonsarwn tower at it. One that comes to mind is a 0.3 with only 2 ways out that lead right into 0.5s.
Add to that ur competeing with people that will have 60 million SP in industry areas and have ME1000 BPOs its not easy to make any profit.
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Farrisen
Caldari
Cerbian
Cerbian Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:13:00 -
[5]
What is this crafting you speak of? I don't even
 Originally by: Tyburn Stannis
CCP is in Iceland, not on Gallifrey. 
Originally by: CCP Spitfire
It's because of falcon.
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Akaria Cicero
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:14:00 -
[6]
I'm actually interested in that too. Never bothered with manufacturing and stuff.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:15:00 -
[7]
I made a few billion with invention, so there are profit margins, you just need to produce the right stuff. And sometimes it's just a market fluctuation.
It took me a long while until prices for my Pilgrims went back up again for a proper profit margin, similar with some hardeners and Devoters. Ships generally seem to be more risky.
Not sure how the market developed recently though. Still no profit in T1 ship production?
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Akira Isayeki
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:20:00 -
[8]
Yr doing it wrong.
Why would anyone make anything if there wasn't any profitzzz?
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Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:28:00 -
[9]
Eve has a market based economy. If you don't know how that works, then you probably aren't going to have much luck in manufacturing.
In fact, I think the economy is quite a beautiful thing to see in an MMO. It does pretty good at representing a perfect competition model.
There are profits to be made, but as an industrialist myself, there is no way I'm going to tell you what they are. 
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Akira Isayeki
Yr doing it wrong.
Why would anyone make anything if there wasn't any profitzzz?
simple really.
Because if you mine the minerals yourself, they are "free"
so instead of selling the ore for 100,000, build a ship with that ore and sell it for 80,000.
for some reason a lot of players see this is "profit" since the minerals they mine didn't cost isk to get.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Akira Isayeki
Yr doing it wrong.
Why would anyone make anything if there wasn't any profitzzz?
Because ore and minerals are "free" and you have to do something with them?
And well people want the ships anyway, no ships, no EVE.
I like the word "crafting" .. ^^
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:34:00 -
[12]
Profit margins go up when the manufacturing is done on a corporate level.
On the other hand has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
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Raydall
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Akira Isayeki
Yr doing it wrong.
Why would anyone make anything if there wasn't any profitzzz?
simple really.
Because if you mine the minerals yourself, they are "free"
so instead of selling the ore for 100,000, build a ship with that ore and sell it for 80,000.
for some reason a lot of players see this is "profit" since the minerals they mine didn't cost isk to get.
This.^
I have heard several people (even in my own corp) spout this nonsense,
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Akira Isayeki
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Raydall
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Akira Isayeki
Yr doing it wrong.
Why would anyone make anything if there wasn't any profitzzz?
simple really.
Because if you mine the minerals yourself, they are "free"
so instead of selling the ore for 100,000, build a ship with that ore and sell it for 80,000.
for some reason a lot of players see this is "profit" since the minerals they mine didn't cost isk to get.
This.^
I have heard several people (even in my own corp) spout this nonsense,
Yeah that's dumb. Anyone who thinks that should go camp a gate or shoot some rats or something.
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Syberbolt8
Gallente
Swallows And Amazons
AAA Citizens
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:54:00 -
[15]
buy orders are your friends, That is how you manage your profit margin. Takes a little longer then going to jita and buying everything at cost, but if your doing a lot of production then your not really going to notice that.
The Resurrection: Support the Revised Dead Horse Pos thread in Assembly Hall |
Syberbolt8
Gallente
Swallows And Amazons
AAA Citizens
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Posted - 2011.04.24 12:56:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Syberbolt8 on 24/04/2011 12:56:52
stupid forums
The Resurrection: Support the Revised Dead Horse Pos thread in Assembly Hall |
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.24 13:01:00 -
[17]
People are doing it for the sheer love of doing it.
Perhaps get out of high-sec and do your thing in 0.0 where there is little other option but to do it and it is a necessity for a survival.
There is more in EVE than just to get rich.
--
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Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
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Posted - 2011.04.24 13:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Raydall
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Akira Isayeki
Yr doing it wrong.
Why would anyone make anything if there wasn't any profitzzz?
simple really.
Because if you mine the minerals yourself, they are "free"
so instead of selling the ore for 100,000, build a ship with that ore and sell it for 80,000.
for some reason a lot of players see this is "profit" since the minerals they mine didn't cost isk to get.
This.^
I have heard several people (even in my own corp) spout this nonsense,
actually they are right. they're making 80m ISK (and spending more time doing it), instead of a 100m ISK. |
Narisa Bithon
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.24 13:27:00 -
[19]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Akira Isayeki
Yr doing it wrong.
Why would anyone make anything if there wasn't any profitzzz?
simple really.
Because if you mine the minerals yourself, they are "free"
so instead of selling the ore for 100,000, build a ship with that ore and sell it for 80,000.
for some reason a lot of players see this is "profit" since the minerals they mine didn't cost isk to get.
in the time it took you to mine those minerals you'd have made double the profit ratting, missioning or plexing
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Krevnos
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Posted - 2011.04.24 13:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akira Isayeki
Originally by: Raydall
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Akira Isayeki
Yr doing it wrong.
Why would anyone make anything if there wasn't any profitzzz?
simple really.
Because if you mine the minerals yourself, they are "free"
so instead of selling the ore for 100,000, build a ship with that ore and sell it for 80,000.
for some reason a lot of players see this is "profit" since the minerals they mine didn't cost isk to get.
This.^
I have heard several people (even in my own corp) spout this nonsense,
Yeah that's dumb. Anyone who thinks that should go camp a gate or shoot some rats or something.
Confirming I have heard exactly the same from my own corp mates. Even after pointing out that they're making a loss, they still don't see the sense.
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Blacksquirrel
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Posted - 2011.04.24 14:09:00 -
[21]
You need to run calculations at the exponential numbers, and times. But yeah I see what you're saying however if you do mine or PI then you just trade time instead. Granted this only works for me as I have to semi afk mine do to my schedule. (Id rather do something "more active") But it is what it is. Also put up buy orders in mission heavy areas and buy stuff cheaper.
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Ronin Yasuda
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Posted - 2011.04.24 14:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: OverlordY
Edited by: OverlordY on 24/04/2011 12:13:11
Add to that ur competeing with people that will have 60 million SP in industry areas and have ME1000 BPOs its not easy to make any profit.
Anybody dumb enough to research a BPO to ME1000, would never be a threat to your profits...just saying
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.04.24 14:48:00 -
[23]
I make about 2 billion a month making stuff, and our CEO makes 6 to 10 billion a month. There are opportunities galore if you look for them.
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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.04.24 14:51:00 -
[24]
Material buy orders - let someone else lose money through their impatience to cash in their product. |
Reonetii
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.24 14:59:00 -
[25]
No profit?
Then why did I just make next months sub off of 50 T1 rigs ie: after the total costs of bp purchase, ME, PE, resourcing required items, production and market seeding taxes etc?
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Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:05:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Reonetii
No profit?
Then why did I just make next months sub off of 50 T1 rigs ie: after the total costs of bp purchase, ME, PE, resourcing required items, production and market seeding taxes etc?
Dude just wants to right click > sell and make billions like in WoW, don't make fun of him!
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Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:13:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 24/04/2011 15:15:34
ifTrue: [ 'troll' ] then
Successful troll is successful
else
Originally by: Ultim8Evil
Lol @ "crafting"
GB2WoW
end if;
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Eventus stultorum magister. |
Jeter Pricecheck
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:25:00 -
[28]
What is crafting? Is that like Minecraft?
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:46:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Still no profit in T1 ship production?
lol.
.
Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Joe Phoenix
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:49:00 -
[30]
Well apart from battleships, there really isn't.
I'm afraid its another casualty of the bots...
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