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Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:00:00 - [1] Ok, so when a pod pilot dies - they are copied, and the copy is placed into a new clone. The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person. So pod pilots are not immortal. Unless of course their consciousness is somehow transferred to the new clone instead on being copied. Two different things... ...so is it copied or transferred?
Nebula Terron Wolf's in Sheep's Clothing	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:04:00 - [2] For the pilot there is no difference, he/she remembers everything till the point he/she died, then wakes up in a station and new clone collecting new memories till the next death. You are right that it is a whole new person, but as you have all the memories your char keeps living even though you really died in that pod.
Nuniki Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:24:00 - [3] Dying and being reborn in your new clone is pretty much the same as waking up after going to sleep. How do you know that when you goto sleep it's the same consciousness that wakes up the next morning? Maybe you live only one day at a time, and the only reason you seem like the same person is because of the memories your physical brain holds onto. You could say that every day a new person wakes up who isn't you, but is just like you, and so on.
Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:29:00 - [4] Edited by: Kronir on 26/04/2011 10:29:47 Originally by: Nuniki Dying and being reborn in your new clone is pretty much the same as waking up after going to sleep. How do you know that when you goto sleep it's the same consciousness that wakes up the next morning? Maybe you live only one day at a time, and the only reason you seem like the same person is because of the memories your physical brain holds onto. You could say that every day a new person wakes up who isn't you, but is just like you, and so on. Assuming consciousness is one continuous stream, then the stream is broken upon pod-death where the copy is created. The copied clone is then a new stream of consciousness. When we sleep our brain isn't exploded and copied into a new body. On the other hand if a pod pilot's consciousness is transferred into a new body then the stream of consciousness is not broken.
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:33:00 - [5] Are you familiar with the theory that states that there is a smallest unit of time, and this unit measures the number of times the universe has been destroyed and recreated in an almost identical fashion, thus allowing for things like movement? Also, dam thats a run-on sentence ----------------------------------------------- Market help thread, or troll magnet?
Nuniki Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Kronir Edited by: Kronir on 26/04/2011 10:29:47 Originally by: Nuniki Dying and being reborn in your new clone is pretty much the same as waking up after going to sleep. How do you know that when you goto sleep it's the same consciousness that wakes up the next morning? Maybe you live only one day at a time, and the only reason you seem like the same person is because of the memories your physical brain holds onto. You could say that every day a new person wakes up who isn't you, but is just like you, and so on. Assuming consciousness is one continuous stream, then the stream is broken upon pod-death where the copy is created. The copied clone is then a new stream of consciousness. When we sleep our brain isn't exploded and copied into a new body. On the other hand if a pod pilot's consciousness is transferred into a new body then the stream of consciousness is not broken. That's the thing, you're just assuming. What leads you to believe it is? You're not conscious during sleep, your brain is active but it's not the same you, it's drawing its activity from itself. If you are your brain, and your brain is copied, is the copy not you? As I edited in, you'll become less and less attached to your current physical incarnation and see yourself more as the total picture, your own legacy.
LLoyd Thomson	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Kronir Assuming ... is not really a scientific word.
gfldex	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Kronir The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person. Why?
Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:54:00 - [9] Originally by: LLoyd Thomson Originally by: Kronir Assuming ... is not really a scientific word. When you're talking about consciousness, the only word you can use is assuming. It's not a fixed science. Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Kronir The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person. Why? When you photocopy something, the photocopy isn't the original version - it's a copy. When you copy a file on a computer you have the original version and the 'copy'.
Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Nuniki That's the thing, you're just assuming. What leads you to believe it is? You're not conscious during sleep, your brain is active but it's not the same you, it's drawing its activity from itself. If you are your brain, and your brain is copied, is the copy not you? As I edited in, you'll become less and less attached to your current physical incarnation and see yourself more as the total picture, your own legacy. Again, if you photocopy something, is the copy the original? No, it's a 'copy'. Now what if we are not our brain? And instead our brain is a medium for our consciousness to act upon? That would be a different story...

Tzigan Jegos	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:02:00 - [11] Edited by: Tzigan Jegos on 26/04/2011 11:06:27 Originally by: Kronir Ok, so when a pod pilot dies - they are copied, and the copy is placed into a new clone. The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person. So pod pilots are not immortal. Unless of course their consciousness is somehow transferred to the new clone instead on being copied. Two different things... ...so is it copied or transferred? Because the qualities of a brain (consciousness, personality, memories, etc) are entirely stored to and derived from the brain's physical structure, it logically follows that a separate but identical physical structure will have and produce exactly the same qualities. Since the exact details of a brain's physical quantities (including their relative spatial coordinates) can be "scanned" or digitized and another copy can be produced from that "scan," it logically follows (with minor caveats) that both instances of that "scan" are the same person. They will stop being the same person the instant they have different experiences (ie the instant they start living as separate entities.) TL,DR: If you copy a DVD (medium), you will have the same movie (content) twice. The content doesn't change during copying. Only the medium does. The brain is not the person, just as a DVD disc is not a movie. Therefore it is irrelevant if the medium is a clone or the original. Both the original and the clone are the same person for the same reason the movies on the copied DVDs are identical.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Kronir Edited by: Kronir on 26/04/2011 10:57:23 Originally by: Nuniki That's the thing, you're just assuming. What leads you to believe it is? You're not conscious during sleep, your brain is active but it's not the same you, it's drawing its activity from itself. If you are your brain, and your brain is copied, is the copy not you? As I edited in, you'll become less and less attached to your current physical incarnation and see yourself more as the total picture, your own legacy. Again, if you photocopy something, is the copy the original? No, it's a 'copy'. Now what if we are not our brain? And instead our brain is a medium for our consciousness to act upon? Would that be a different story? From a scientific standpoint you are a perfect copy. From a religious standpoint you are likely not the same person. Why? There are people in Eve lore (one specifically) who have been able to activate multiple clones of themselves at the same time to accomplish various tasks. To assume they are all truly the same person, the soul itself would have to split.
Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Tzigan Jegos Originally by: Kronir Ok, so when a pod pilot dies - they are copied, and the copy is placed into a new clone. The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person. So pod pilots are not immortal. Unless of course their consciousness is somehow transferred to the new clone instead on being copied. Two different things... ...so is it copied or transferred? Because the qualities of a brain (consciousness, personality, memories, etc) are entirely stored to and derived from the brain's physical structure, it logically follows that a separate but identical physical structure will have and produce exactly the same qualities. Since the exact details of a brain's physical quantities (including their relative spatial coordinates) can be "scanned" or digitized and another copy can be produced from that "scan," it logically follows (with minor caveats) that both instances of that "scan" are the same person. They will stop being the same person the instant they have different experiences (ie the instant they start living as separate entities.) TL,DR: If you copy a DVD (medium), you will have the same movie (content) twice. The content doesn't change during copying. Only the medium does. The brain is not the person, just as a DVD disc is not a movie. Therefore it is irrelevant if the medium is a clone or the original. Both the original and the copy are the same person for the same reason the movies on each DVD copy are identical. So, you are saying that if a copy is made of you - that you will be looking out of both sets of eyes at the same time? That you will be experiencing being present in both bodies?
Tzigan Jegos	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Kronir Originally by: Tzigan Jegos Originally by: Kronir Ok, so when a pod pilot dies - they are copied, and the copy is placed into a new clone. The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person. So pod pilots are not immortal. Unless of course their consciousness is somehow transferred to the new clone instead on being copied. Two different things... ...so is it copied or transferred? Because the qualities of a brain (consciousness, personality, memories, etc) are entirely stored to and derived from the brain's physical structure, it logically follows that a separate but identical physical structure will have and produce exactly the same qualities. Since the exact details of a brain's physical quantities (including their relative spatial coordinates) can be "scanned" or digitized and another copy can be produced from that "scan," it logically follows (with minor caveats) that both instances of that "scan" are the same person. They will stop being the same person the instant they have different experiences (ie the instant they start living as separate entities.) TL,DR: If you copy a DVD (medium), you will have the same movie (content) twice. The content doesn't change during copying. Only the medium does. The brain is not the person, just as a DVD disc is not a movie. Therefore it is irrelevant if the medium is a clone or the original. Both the original and the copy are the same person for the same reason the movies on each DVD copy are identical. So, you are saying that if a copy is made of you - that you will be looking out of both sets of eyes at the same time? That you will be experiencing being present in both bodies? No. My post mentioned: "They will stop being the same person the instant they have different experiences (ie the instant they start living as separate entities.)"
Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:12:00 - [15] Edited by: Kronir on 26/04/2011 11:13:24 Originally by: Tzigan Jegos No. My post mentioned: "They will stop being the same person the instant they have different experiences (ie the instant they start living as separate entities.)" Ok. So a copy is made of a person. Those two people then go on to be seperate people (due to having seperate experiences). The original person dies. His consciousness is therefore dead, i.e. he is not immortal. But a 'copy' of him lives on, which as you pointed out is at that point a different person.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Kronir Originally by: Tzigan Jegos Originally by: Kronir Ok, so when a pod pilot dies - they are copied, and the copy is placed into a new clone. The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person. So pod pilots are not immortal. Unless of course their consciousness is somehow transferred to the new clone instead on being copied. Two different things... ...so is it copied or transferred? Because the qualities of a brain (consciousness, personality, memories, etc) are entirely stored to and derived from the brain's physical structure, it logically follows that a separate but identical physical structure will have and produce exactly the same qualities. Since the exact details of a brain's physical quantities (including their relative spatial coordinates) can be "scanned" or digitized and another copy can be produced from that "scan," it logically follows (with minor caveats) that both instances of that "scan" are the same person. They will stop being the same person the instant they have different experiences (ie the instant they start living as separate entities.) TL,DR: If you copy a DVD (medium), you will have the same movie (content) twice. The content doesn't change during copying. Only the medium does. The brain is not the person, just as a DVD disc is not a movie. Therefore it is irrelevant if the medium is a clone or the original. Both the original and the copy are the same person for the same reason the movies on each DVD copy are identical. So, you are saying that if a copy is made of you - that you will be looking out of both sets of eyes at the same time? That you will be experiencing being present in both bodies? In order for you to accept that kind of belief, you have to accept that the soul is not present in the body and is instead controlling the mind like a puppet from a far distance. You have to believe it is powerful enough to do this with multiple bodies -- possibly a massive amount, if so many were activated at the same time. It could be hundreds, thousands, perhaps millions under incredible circumstances. That is a more difficult religious theory to believe however. It is easier to assume that each clone is host to a new soul, with the same set of memories. In short, no. You are not immortal. Your legacy might be however.
Tzigan Jegos	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:15:00 - [17] Edited by: Tzigan Jegos on 26/04/2011 11:15:37 Originally by: Kronir Edited by: Kronir on 26/04/2011 11:12:05 Originally by: Tzigan Jegos No. My post mentioned: "They will stop being the same person the instant they have different experiences (ie the instant they start living as separate entities.)" Ok. So a copy is made of a person. Those two people then go on to be seperate people (due to having seperate experiences). The original person dies. His consciousness is therefore dead, i.e. he is not immortal. No. Because to become different persons they both have to have different experiences. Since one dies and therefore cannot have experiences anymore, they both remain the same person. If I put your brain in stasis (ie I don't allow it to change) and I make a copy of it and I don't allow it to change either, I will have exactly 2 of you at the same time. If I kill one brain, I will only have 1 of you left. But it's still exactly the same you.
Kara Sharalien Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Azhpol Are you familiar with the theory that states that there is a smallest unit of time, and this unit measures the number of times the universe has been destroyed and recreated in an almost identical fashion, thus allowing for things like movement? Thief of Time was one of Terry Pratchett's better books. I would argue that a person is naught but the sum of their memories and biology. As long as you replicate each exactly, you have the same person.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:20:00 - [19] This is the whole star trek 'beaming kills you' discussion all over again. I will hereby give you the the short summary of it: DERP Thank you. --------
Oosel Nightmare Holdings	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:21:00 - [20] well it works for the cylons or is it diffrent for them as they are machines even though they are sentient

Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:26:00 - [21] Originally by: Tzigan Jegos No. My post mentioned: "They will stop being the same person the instant they have different experiences (ie the instant they start living as separate entities.)" Ok. So a copy is made of a person. Those two people then go on to be seperate people (due to having seperate experiences). The original person dies. His consciousness is therefore dead, i.e. he is not immortal. No. Because to become different persons they both have to have different experiences. Since one dies and therefore cannot have experiences anymore, they both remain the same person. If I put your brain in stasis (ie I don't allow it to change) and I make a copy of it and I don't allow it to change either, I will have exactly 2 of you at the same time. If I kill one brain, I will only have 1 of you left. But it's still exactly the same you. So, you are saying: 1) If copy is made of a person, those two people do not share the same consciousness or sensory awareness. That is to say; it is not one person looking out of both sets of eyes. 2) Even though both bodies do not share the same consciousness and sensory awareness, they are still the same person.
Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:28:00 - [22] Edited by: Kronir on 26/04/2011 11:30:09 Originally by: Oosel well it works for the cylons or is it diffrent for them as they are machines even though they are sentient With cylons their consciousness is transferred not copied. Originally by: Kuronaga In order for you to accept that kind of belief, you have to accept that the soul is not present in the body and is instead controlling the mind like a puppet from a far distance. You have to believe it is powerful enough to do this with multiple bodies -- possibly a massive amount, if so many were activated at the same time. It could be hundreds, thousands, perhaps millions under incredible circumstances. That is a more difficult religious theory to believe however. It is easier to assume that each clone is host to a new soul, with the same set of memories. In short, no. You are not immortal. Your legacy might be however. So our existance is more complex than being 'a copy of a movie on a DVD'. I am inclined to agree. :)
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Kronir 1) If copy is made of a person, those two people do not share the same consciousness or sensory awareness. That is to say; it is not one person looking out of both sets of eyes. 2) Even though both bodies do not share the same consciousness and sensory awareness, they are still the same person. I think your confusion comes from the word COPY. If you make a digital copy of something you can verify its integrity and therefor it is an exact copy and you can no longer distinguish between an original and a copy. Now assuming you can make such a perfect copy of a human being, at the point in time they get copied they are the same person, but they will soon start to behave different because of different input. And you could ask them "Are you the copy or the original?" and they would both answer "the original". -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Kronir Originally by: Kuronaga In order for you to accept that kind of belief, you have to accept that the soul is not present in the body and is instead controlling the mind like a puppet from a far distance. So our existance is more complex than being 'a copy of a movie on a DVD'. I am inclined to agree. :) Isn't that where you where heading with that discussion the whole time? And why would you be "more" if you add some magic to the soup? -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
War Kitten Panda McLegion	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:40:00 - [25] Pod pilots are data in a database, represented by 1s and 0s. They are not people. They have no consciousness. Immortality doesn't apply because there is no life involved. Suspend your disbelief, or join reality entirely. Pointless post is pointless. "Here's your sign..." If you don't get it, look it up. Somebody didn't like me doing it for you.
Tzigan Jegos	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:42:00 - [26] Edited by: Tzigan Jegos on 26/04/2011 11:43:24 Originally by: Kronir Originally by: Tzigan Jegos No. My post mentioned: "They will stop being the same person the instant they have different experiences (ie the instant they start living as separate entities.)" Ok. So a copy is made of a person. Those two people then go on to be separate people (due to having seperate experiences). The original person dies. His consciousness is therefore dead, i.e. he is not immortal. No. Because to become different persons they both have to have different experiences. Since one dies and therefore cannot have experiences anymore, they both remain the same person. If I put your brain in stasis (ie I don't allow it to change) and I make a copy of it and I don't allow it to change either, I will have exactly 2 of you at the same time. If I kill one brain, I will only have 1 of you left. But it's still exactly the same you. So, you are saying: 1) If copy is made of a person, those two people do not share the same consciousness or sensory awareness. That is to say; it is not one person looking out of both sets of eyes. 2) Even though both bodies do not share the same consciousness and sensory awareness, they are still the same person. You're not paying attention. If two identical brains are exposed to different stimuli, either internal or external, they will become different brains and therefore different persons. If that happens, they can still say to each other: "Between cloning time C and time T at which we received different stimuli, you and I were exactly the same person." But if either of the two brains is destroyed before those stimuli can change it (and thus create 2 persons,) the brain which keeps living is the same person, regardless if it's the original brain or the clone, as I think it is obvious from my brains-in-stasis example in the above quoted post.
Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:44:00 - [27] Edited by: Kronir on 26/04/2011 11:45:56 Originally by: Karak Terrel I think your confusion comes from the word COPY. If you make a digital copy of something you can verify its integrity and therefor it is an exact copy and you can no longer distinguish between an original and a copy. Now assuming you can make such a perfect copy of a human being, at the point in time they get copied they are the same person, but they will soon start to behave different because of different input. And you could ask them "Are you the copy or the original?" and they would both answer "the original". Originally by: Tzigan Jegos You're not paying attention. If two identical brains are exposed to different stimuli, either internal or external, they will become different brains and therefore different persons. If that happens, they can still say to each other: "Between cloning time C and time T at which we received different stimuli, you and I were exactly the same person." But if either of the two brains is destroyed before those stimuli can change it (and thus create 2 persons,) the brain which keeps living is the same person, regardless if it's the original brain or the clone, as I think it is obvious from my brains-in-stasis example in the above quoted post. The point comes down to a very simple question: If a perfect copy is made of you personally, do you then share the same sensory experiences as the copy? i.e. do you see out of both sets of eyes? If yes; then you are the same person. If no; then you are different people with the *same* biology and memories.
LLoyd Thomson	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Kronir Originally by: LLoyd Thomson Originally by: Kronir Assuming ... is not really a scientific word. When you're talking about consciousness, the only word you can use is assuming. It's not a fixed science. I object, because cloning body and mind is science in a very pure form. Also by your reasoning a man with a head trauma is not the same man than before his accident, because his consciousness was altered.
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Kronir The point comes down to a very simple question: If a perfect copy is made of you personally, do you then share the same sensory experiences as the copy? i.e. do you see out of both sets of eyes? If yes; then you are the same person. If no; then you are different people with the *same* biology and memories. Why would there be a connection between body A and body B? So No. And that you think they are not the same person is more a linguistic problem than a real one. -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:48:00 - [30] Originally by: Kuronaga In order for you to accept that kind of belief, you have to accept that the soul is not present in the body and is instead controlling the mind like a puppet from a far distance. You have to believe it is powerful enough to do this with multiple bodies -- possibly a massive amount, if so many were activated at the same time. It could be hundreds, thousands, perhaps millions under incredible circumstances. That is a more difficult religious theory to believe however. It is easier to assume that each clone is host to a new soul, with the same set of memories. In short, no. You are not immortal. Your legacy might be however. The existence of a soul is a huge assumption that really isn't supported by any evidence and is in fact invalidated by all currently available evidence about how consciousness works.



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