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Pod pilots are not immortal??

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Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:48:00 - [31] Originally by: Karak Terrel Isn't that where you where heading with that discussion the whole time? And why would you be "more" if you add some magic to the soup? No, that isn't where I was heading. What I am interested in is whether having two brains the same = two people the same.
War Kitten Panda McLegion	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:51:00 - [32] Helllooooo.... reality calling here.... Nobody knows the real answer, why are you debating what the answer is in a game? Quick, someone from CCP's FICTION writing team, make something up for these nuts.
Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:51:00 - [33] Originally by: Karak Terrel Why would there be a connection between body A and body B? So No. And that you think they are not the same person is more a linguistic problem than a real one. Then you are saying it comes down to how you define the word 'person'? Is a person a collection of biology and memories? Or Is a person the awareness that looks out from the body?
LLoyd Thomson	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:52:00 - [34] Originally by: War Kitten Helllooooo.... reality calling here.... Nobody knows the real answer, why are you debating what the answer is in a game? Quick, someone from CCP's FICTION writing team, make something up for these nuts. Shut up and post some random "can I have your stuff" elsewhere. If you don't like the discussion here, stop reading it.
Virtue Maulerant	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:52:00 - [35] Edited by: Virtue Maulerant on 26/04/2011 11:55:27 Originally by: Nuniki Edited by: Nuniki on 26/04/2011 10:26:58 Dying and being reborn in your new clone is pretty much the same as waking up after going to sleep. How do you know that when you goto sleep it's the same consciousness that wakes up the next morning? Maybe you live only one day at a time, and the only reason you seem like the same person is because of the memories your physical brain holds onto. You could say that every day a new person wakes up who isn't you, but is just like you, and so on. Edit: And although you'd be worried about the first time you died because you felt you specifically would end even though another just like you would be awoken, after a few deaths it would be a normal as going to sleep. You'd no longer feel a connection to your current reincarnation and begin to view yourself as your legacy. Think about it when you close your eyes tonight, maybe "you" never wake up. Precisely,that's is exactly what it is like. Originally by: War Kitten Helllooooo.... reality calling here.... Nobody knows the real answer, why are you debating what the answer is in a game? Quick, someone from CCP's FICTION writing team, make something up for these nuts. Rofl.You really are clueless aren't you?This is a discussion for existence and self awareness in general.Your failure to understand the concept only shows your level,so please spare us.
Kacer Xenro FinFleet Raiden.	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:54:00 - [36] Interesting topic. I agree with the person who wrote the stuff about your conciousness being a continous stream. I mean, your clone is just a copy of you, which means that in theory you can activate a clone without really being dead. so if your conciousness was being transplanted as well, it would mean you would have two conciousnesses, no?
War Kitten Panda McLegion	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:54:00 - [37] Originally by: LLoyd Thomson Originally by: War Kitten Helllooooo.... reality calling here.... Nobody knows the real answer, why are you debating what the answer is in a game? Quick, someone from CCP's FICTION writing team, make something up for these nuts. Shut up and post some random "can I have your stuff" elsewhere. If you don't like the discussion here, stop reading it. But I do like it - I'm getting quite a chuckle out of reading it all. My contribution is just pointing out the obvious flaws in everyone's arguments.
LLoyd Thomson	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:57:00 - [38] Originally by: War Kitten Originally by: LLoyd Thomson Originally by: War Kitten Helllooooo.... reality calling here.... Nobody knows the real answer, why are you debating what the answer is in a game? Quick, someone from CCP's FICTION writing team, make something up for these nuts. Shut up and post some random "can I have your stuff" elsewhere. If you don't like the discussion here, stop reading it. But I do like it - I'm getting quite a chuckle out of reading it all. My contribution is just pointing out the obvious flaws in everyone's arguments. CCP already gave the answer to this. So again: shut up.
Tzigan Jegos	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:03:00 - [39] Originally by: Kronir Edited by: Kronir on 26/04/2011 11:45:56 Originally by: Karak Terrel I think your confusion comes from the word COPY. If you make a digital copy of something you can verify its integrity and therefor it is an exact copy and you can no longer distinguish between an original and a copy. Now assuming you can make such a perfect copy of a human being, at the point in time they get copied they are the same person, but they will soon start to behave different because of different input. And you could ask them "Are you the copy or the original?" and they would both answer "the original". Originally by: Tzigan Jegos You're not paying attention. If two identical brains are exposed to different stimuli, either internal or external, they will become different brains and therefore different persons. If that happens, they can still say to each other: "Between cloning time C and time T at which we received different stimuli, you and I were exactly the same person." But if either of the two brains is destroyed before those stimuli can change it (and thus create 2 persons,) the brain which keeps living is the same person, regardless if it's the original brain or the clone, as I think it is obvious from my brains-in-stasis example in the above quoted post. The point comes down to a very simple question: If a perfect copy is made of you personally, do you then share the same sensory experiences as the copy? No. Light going in their eyeball will be different than the one going in my eyeball. Therefore our brains will diverge differently from the original brain. Originally by: Kronir i.e. do you see out of both sets of eyes? Yes, but with a twist. See below.* Originally by: Kronir If yes; then you are the same person. Only in ideal circumstances. See below.* Originally by: Kronir If no; then you are different people with the *same* biology and memories. I agree. The clones do indeed become 2 different persons once the two brains are stimulated differently. But prior to receiving said different stimuli, the two brains were exactly the same person. Furthermore: * If you subject the two brains to precisely the same stimuli, thus causing no differences between them to appear, you will probably have the same person, in 2 brains, in a continuous fashion. That is hard to achieve though, since to receive identical stimuli they would have to occupy the same space simultaneously. Either that, or they'd have to be placed in an identical and perfectly simulated virtual reality. They will see the same things, react the same, smell the same things and THINK the same things: if the simulations they live in are perfectly identical and both the simulation and the brain follow a deterministic model. So yes, in this idealized special case, it would be as if I was looking through my clone's eyes, although I wouldn't know it.
Valari Nala Zena Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:07:00 - [40] I don't see it that way. Body A died, physically, doesn't matter if your mind is copied or transfered, the brain is irreparably damaged and you actually physically died like an original person would. If you imagine being body A, it means death, period. Body B who just woke up, is a new physical being, new brain and stuff, it just shares all skills (if you did it right :p) and past experiences. For body B it would probably just feel like waking up, everyone who knows you is going to treat and remember you as body A, for body B and friends it makes no difference. So, tl;dr Imagine being body A, you died, period. Now imagine being body B, you just woke up feeling like body A except not dead, still doesn't mean body A didn't die. To yourself, your not immortal, to everyone else you are.

War Kitten Panda McLegion	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:10:00 - [41] Originally by: LLoyd Thomson Originally by: War Kitten Originally by: LLoyd Thomson Originally by: War Kitten Helllooooo.... reality calling here.... Nobody knows the real answer, why are you debating what the answer is in a game? Quick, someone from CCP's FICTION writing team, make something up for these nuts. Shut up and post some random "can I have your stuff" elsewhere. If you don't like the discussion here, stop reading it. But I do like it - I'm getting quite a chuckle out of reading it all. My contribution is just pointing out the obvious flaws in everyone's arguments. CCP already gave the answer to this. So again: shut up. Ahh, so you know the answer in the context of the forums which you are discussing this. You're just having a friendly little mental circle-jerk based on assumptions and conjecture about reality then? Perhaps you're the one in the wrong place - I therefore invite you to shut up. :)
Tzigan Jegos	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:11:00 - [42] Originally by: Valari Nala Zena So, tl;dr Imagine being body A, you died, period. Now imagine being body B, you just woke up feeling like body A except not dead, still doesn't mean body A didn't die. To yourself, your not immortal, to everyone else you are. You are not your body for the same reason a DVD is not a movie.
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:15:00 - [43] Originally by: Kronir Originally by: Karak Terrel Why would there be a connection between body A and body B? So No. And that you think they are not the same person is more a linguistic problem than a real one. Then you are saying it comes down to how you define the word 'person'? Is a person a collection of biology and memories? Or Is a person the awareness that looks out from the body? I would say the word "person" was not invented with the possibility of copying humans. This are linguistic problems, they always come up when we think about new stuff the words where not invented to describe. If you mean by "person" an immortal soul or something equivalent that is nonphysical and somehow only connected to the body then it already left the realm of science. Thats because that idea exists for centuries now and with every step in science we moved more "functionality" of that soul into the brain. While we can never with absolute certainty prove that something like a soul does not exist, it has yet to be demonstrated that it is worth a discussion in a scientific context. -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
Virtue Maulerant	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:17:00 - [44] It's very easy to imagine,taken from the daily activity of waking up.When you close your eyes to sleep everyday you stand there relaxing gradually and the next think you know it's morning and your waking up.Now imagine the last thing you remember is alarms going off and you waking up in a hospital/medical facility.Same thing as having a road accident and waking up at the hospital.It is that simple really. Whether or not you are really the same person is debatable and in the realm of philosophy.Transferred,copied what's the difference?It will seem the same to you.
Valari Nala Zena Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:17:00 - [45] Originally by: Tzigan Jegos Originally by: Valari Nala Zena So, tl;dr Imagine being body A, you died, period. Now imagine being body B, you just woke up feeling like body A except not dead, still doesn't mean body A didn't die. To yourself, your not immortal, to everyone else you are. You are not your body for the same reason a DVD is not a movie. If you destroy your DVD, it wouldn't mean anything to you if you have the same copy. Still doesn't mean you have no broken DVD that can't play movies anymore.
cRazYf1St tempered steel	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:19:00 - [46] Originally by: Valari Nala Zena Edited by: Valari Nala Zena on 26/04/2011 12:11:15 I don't see it that way. Body A died, physically, doesn't matter if your mind is copied or transfered, the brain is irreparably damaged and you actually physically died like an original person would. If you imagine being body A, it means death, period. Body B who just woke up, is a new physical being, new brain and stuff, it just shares all skills (if you did it right :p) and past experiences. For body B it would probably just feel like waking up, everyone who knows you is going to treat and remember you as body A, for body B and those who know you it makes no difference. So, tl;dr Imagine being body A, you died, period. Now imagine being body B, you just woke up feeling like body A except not dead, still doesn't mean body A didn't die. To yourself, your not immortal, to everyone else you are. very interesting subject isn't this, think i'm more inclined to believe this then anything else, as much as i would want to be immortal :P this all makes me think if they ever had technology to replace your brain would it still be you if they transferred all your memories etc over to the new brain? or would you really die and it would be a different soul or something in your body? guess thats for another discussion in OOPE.
LLoyd Thomson	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Kacer Xenro Interesting topic. I agree with the person who wrote the stuff about your conciousness being a continous stream. Then read up on William James. Originally by: Kacer Xenro I mean, your clone is just a copy of you, which means that in theory you can activate a clone without really being dead. Yes of course. The Broker did it in one of the books. Originally by: Kacer Xenro so if your conciousness was being transplanted as well, it would mean you would have two conciousnesses, no? I don't think so. Every stream can be suspended (the human brain through electrical stimuli) and splited (think of a river stream). If you split a stream both streams continue to flow and are not impeeded or affected by the other. If you destroy one of those streams is up to you. In EVE the human body in the POD is killed.
Stafen Killer Koalas	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:24:00 - [48] An interesting popular scientific work on consciousness by a very reputable scientist can be found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Mind He talks a bit about copying the mind. He says it would only be possible with digital computers if the mind computable (ie. can be defined as a computer program) and not some quantum mechanical effect. But he thinks that the mind is a quantum mechanical effect because it can solve problems which digital computers cannot (eg. paradoxes). Thus you cannot copy the mind, as by measuring a quantum mechanical system you alter it. Thus I guess is the reason CCP decided to say when you clone a mind you destroy the original in there cloning article. The book is fairly old, and the subject is still contentious. It is was an interesting read if you know some college level mathematics.
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:25:00 - [49] Originally by: Tzigan Jegos You are not your body for the same reason a DVD is not a movie. The movie is the configuration of the molecules on the surface of the DVD, so in that sense the DVD IS the movie and therefor the body IS you. Now that i reversed your analogy, would you agree that it isn't a good analogy to discuss that problem at all? -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
Wyke Mossari Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:27:00 - [50] This question is the heart of the fundamental mystery of Eve. In RL it is known as the Mind-Body Dichotomy. In Eve, Ior Labron, the Jovian founder of the Society of Conscious Thought contemplated this issue deeply. The threads of this run throughout Eve, the Sleepers, Intaki Rebirth, Amarr Religion and Capsuleer' Clones.

Tzigan Jegos	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:38:00 - [51] Originally by: Karak Terrel Originally by: Tzigan Jegos You are not your body for the same reason a DVD is not a movie. The movie is the configuration of the molecules on the surface of the DVD, so in that sense the DVD IS the movie and therefor the body IS you. A movie is not made of plastic coated with silver. A DVD is. You don't believe me? Look up "movie" in a dictionary. - If I arrange plastic and silver in a certain spatial configuration, I obtain a DVD containing a movie. - If I arrange matter in the exact spatial configuration of your brain, I obtain a brain containing you. In both cases I don't have the original DVD/brain. But I have the original movie/person. Therefore the DVD isn't the movie and the brain isn't the person. Consequently, a movie can be on copied on 2 DVDs and a person can be copied on 2 brains.
Blnukem 192 Amarr Shadows of the Empire	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:38:00 - [52] Originally by: CCP Navigator This is really not worthy of a thread.
Kronir	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:38:00 - [53] Originally by: Karak Terrel I would say the word "person" was not invented with the possibility of copying humans. This are linguistic problems, they always come up when we think about new stuff the words where not invented to describe. If you mean by "person" an immortal soul or something equivalent that is nonphysical and somehow only connected to the body then it already left the realm of science. Thats because that idea exists for centuries now and with every step in science we moved more "functionality" of that soul into the brain. While we can never with absolute certainty prove that something like a soul does not exist, it has yet to be demonstrated that it is worth a discussion in a scientific context. The word 'person' here also seems to depend on if someone is talking 3rd person or 1st person. If a perfect copy is made of me, and we stand in front of each other and look into each others eyes: 1) We are different persons because we do not share the same sensory input/consciousness. i.e. We are different persons because we each have a seperate awareness. (1st person statement). 2) We are the same person because we share the same memories and biology (3rd person statement).
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:42:00 - [54] Edited by: Karak Terrel on 26/04/2011 12:47:03 Originally by: Tzigan Jegos Originally by: Karak Terrel Originally by: Tzigan Jegos You are not your body for the same reason a DVD is not a movie. The movie is the configuration of the molecules on the surface of the DVD, so in that sense the DVD IS the movie and therefor the body IS you. A movie is not made of plastic coated with silver. A DVD is. You don't believe me? Look up "movie" in a dictionary. - If I arrange plastic and silver in a certain spatial configuration, I obtain a DVD containing a movie. - If I arrange matter in the exact spatial configuration of your brain, I obtain a brain containing you. In both cases I don't have the original DVD/brain. But I have the original movie/person. Therefore the DVD isn't the movie and the brain isn't the person. Consequently, a movie can be on copied on 2 DVDs and a person can be copied on 2 brains. Your right, i agree Edit: But that works only because the "Movie" does not change. A person however changes over time and that why it still is a bad analogy -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:49:00 - [55] Originally by: Kronir The word 'person' here also seems to depend on if someone is talking 3rd person or 1st person. If a perfect copy is made of me, and we stand in front of each other and look into each others eyes: 1) We are different persons because we do not share the same sensory input/consciousness. i.e. We are different persons because we each have a seperate awareness. (1st person statement). 2) We are the same person because we share the same memories and biology (3rd person statement). Yeah, exactly. Interesting example. -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Talocan United	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:50:00 - [56] There's only one way to resolve this. Override the system to allow your clone to be activated while you're alive.
Tzigan Jegos	Posted - 2011.04.26 12:53:00 - [57] Edited by: Tzigan Jegos on 26/04/2011 12:55:01 Originally by: Kronir 1) We are different persons because we do not share the same sensory input/consciousness. i.e. We are different persons because we each have a seperate awareness. (1st person statement). 2) We are the same person because we share the same memories and biology (3rd person statement). Point 2 is false unless you lived the exact same life as your clone, to the minutest detail during all the time after being cloned, which is somewhat an impossibility. Therefore you cannot be the same person if you experienced different things after being cloned. The correct formulation is: We used to be the same person [blah blah].
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.04.26 13:39:00 - [58] Edited by: Akita T on 26/04/2011 13:44:19 Originally by: Kronir So pod pilots are not immortal. Indeed. They're only "practically" immortal. The rest of your reasoning (which I trimmed out from the quote) is also the in-game RP reasoning for Amarr people to NOT accept full body cloning life extension nor resurrection, since they're the only ones with a very strong religious background (and believing in souls, divinity and other mumbo jumbo). Caldari on the other hand are the most pragmatic, they really don't care either way. Copypasta people as much as you like, as long as there's only copy active at any given time, it's all just peachy. For others, even multiple copies at the same time are not considered an abomination (see "The Broker") __ PERSONAL side-note : there is no soul, we're all just biochemical machines running ever-evolving code. There is very little difference between a conscious human being and a big supercomputer with sufficient processing power running software that emulates the same human's brain accurately, as long as you could make the transfer both ways any time you wanted. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.04.26 14:57:00 - [59] One person said "If you can be remembered forever, you are immortal." Or something like that. And since your clone remembers you, you are immortal. However, technically immortal means you cannot die (referring to the physical body, not the consciousness), so no, pod pilots are not immortal in anyway. We just like to think we are.
Resmand Fredricks	Posted - 2011.04.26 15:01:00 - [60] The problem in my humble opinion is that the Clone does not experience anything until it is activated and typically you can't activate the clone until you die. Ergo no stimuli. Is person a person because the person says so or because its a person?



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