| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Vol Arm'OOO
   |
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:09:00 -
[91]
Its going to be interesting when walking in station and dust are implemented. The whole deal with cloning was that it only worked perfectly when inside the pod. Outside of the pod there were supposed to be problems rendering it inefficent, thus preventing everybody and their brother from using the technology. Of course CCP could wave their hands and say new technology has made cloning/rebirth outside of the pod fesible. But it would be nice if CCP kept the lore in place and there was a measure of consistency. Thus the way I would have it -- if you died in station you lost a certain amount of experience -- reflecting the imperfections of the process outside of the pod.
|
Metal Icarus
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:21:00 -
[92]
honestly, without quantum mechanics the game's premise is stupid. So, I will continue to pretend that my original body is in jove space, protected in a pod at some station that controls my clones.
(thats how it should be and any idea involving copying is ridiculously lacking thought)
|
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:31:00 -
[93]
 Originally by: Metal Icarus
honestly, without quantum mechanics the game's premise is stupid. So, I will continue to pretend that my original body is in jove space, protected in a pod at some station that controls my clones.
(thats how it should be and any idea involving copying is ridiculously lacking thought)
+1
---------------------------------
It seems quoting the CSM minutes in your signature is inappropriate content! Hurr hurr. |
stoicfaux
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:45:00 -
[94]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 26/04/2011 20:48:14
Originally by: Metal Icarus
honestly, without quantum mechanics the game's premise is stupid.
It's also stupid with quantum mechanics. The Empyrean Age novel has a scene describing how an out-of-pod capsuleer has a mental/quantum/non-physical connection with the ship's systems and is able to detect a specific problem deep in the innards of the ship he's on. Meaning, he's tuned into the ship's status without actually being plugged into ship, and that ship wasn't a pod fitted ship anyway.
The novel also has the Broker creating clones of various people and then putting his mind into those clones in order to perform various acts of sabotage 'disguised' as those people, such as replacing the Admiral of the Nyx that crashed into that station.
Never mind the revelation that the Broker is dying of a genetic disease that somehow carries over to his clones, and the disease actually advances across clone jumps (instead of the disease reverting back to the base clone's state.)
Quote:
So, I will continue to pretend that my original body is in jove space, protected in a pod at some station that controls my clones.
Good plan.
Quote:
(thats how it should be and any idea involving copying is ridiculously lacking thought)
My personal theory is that a batch of Writers of Soap Opera Plots were crossed with Quantum Physicists in a bizarre accident, and these Writer/Physicist hybrids were the only entities that could have the twisty thought processes and scientific insights necessary to invent Eve's cloning technology.
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
|
Ranger 1
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:46:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Vol Arm'OOO
Its going to be interesting when walking in station and dust are implemented. The whole deal with cloning was that it only worked perfectly when inside the pod. Outside of the pod there were supposed to be problems rendering it inefficent, thus preventing everybody and their brother from using the technology. Of course CCP could wave their hands and say new technology has made cloning/rebirth outside of the pod fesible. But it would be nice if CCP kept the lore in place and there was a measure of consistency. Thus the way I would have it -- if you died in station you lost a certain amount of experience -- reflecting the imperfections of the process outside of the pod.
Under the currently described mechanics you would be absolutely
correct. There are indications that DUST mercs are going to have a variation of the cloning technology available to them, which means CCP will have to "wave their hands" as you say and announce an improved cloning/memory transfer process that is not reliant on a pod. Perhaps a new implant of some type linked to a clone vat on the command ships that hover over the battlefield.
=====
The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:54:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/04/2011 20:55:47
Originally by: Ranger 1
There are indications that DUST mercs are going to have a variation of the cloning technology available to them, which means CCP will have to "wave their hands" as you say and announce an improved cloning/memory transfer process that is not reliant on a pod. Perhaps a new implant of some type linked to a clone vat on the command ships that hover over the battlefield.
àor they go the Planetside route: it's not the same kind of cloning and transfer because there is no need to maintain the mind. Create a baseline of hard-coded skills that get dumped into each clone; add in the mission-specific and role-specific skills required for this particular body; and finally download the latest update of battlefield intel (which is a light enough a data package that it can be collected and transmitted by the portable battlefield computers the troops carry), and the new clone is set to go.
They're meat ù not mind ù so there's no need for the cumbersome mind-saving tech in the pods. The experiences and learning that improves their chances for the next battle can be assembled as an aggregate from the debreifings/battle action reports from the meat that accidentally survives.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
FeralShadow
RipStar.
United Front Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:56:00 -
[97]
If you've been podded, the original you has died long ago. We are all just echoes of ourselves after that, and to the general public, we seem identical so it is easy to assume the person is the same person.
Though i know different.. I have a 7 stamped on my ass cheek, that's how my originator knew to tell the difference between us. What, you don't all have numbers on your asses? 
_______________________________________________
"If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
|
Lost Greybeard
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:59:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Ranger 1
This is very astute, a couple of observations though.
Since I'm about to argue with you, I'll open by jabbing myself a bit and note that it wasn't particularly astute, this is a classic logic problem that's named the theseus' ship problem because it was first presented by greek philosophers. I'm just parroting thousand-year-old logic.
Quote:
It would not be a transfer of information. The original information is first copied (and converted to data), then transfered.
You're failing to treat "information" as the abstract concept that it is. The form in which information is stored is not synonymous with the information itself. Two identical printouts of this post would have the same information, the fact that the atoms displaying it are distinct is irrelevant.
Quote:
No copy is perfect. There is always variation at some level.
Again, it comes down to defining identity. Every cell in your body is replaced, at minimum, once in seven years, and a non-trivial fraction are replaced every day (in the original version, Theseus gradually repairs his boat by replacing planks, the mast, and so on over the years). How are you claiming that this is any different from the lot happening at once and having some error?
Quote:
I (the original) know for a fact that I am indeed the original still sitting in this chair and that the clone is the now sentient being lying on the lab table, who happens to have all of my memories. My stream of conscious though, the flow of my life, has not been interupted. I am I, the original.
It is worth noting that most scifi has largely followed science in defining the person as the informational makeup of the person, so the conclusion of most settings is simply that there are now two of you, so long as identical stimuli would provoke identical response, you are in fact the same person. It's the standard of proof applied in things like the Turing test.
As time passed and you developed different memories/experiences, you'd eventually become different people, but in those first couple hours after duplication you'd be the same person, assuming the bodies don't have something to distinguish them.
---
If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 21:14:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
Originally by: Ranger 1
No copy is perfect. There is always variation at some level.
Again, it comes down to defining identity. Every cell in your body is replaced, at minimum, once in seven years, and a non-trivial fraction are replaced every day (in the original version, Theseus gradually repairs his boat by replacing planks, the mast, and so on over the years). How are you claiming that this is any different from the lot happening at once and having some error?
That's the heart of the matter. If you want the engineering view, chase down part 5a of this good oldie and check out the 55-minute mark or soà about the problem of defining objects.
Basically, it comes down to this: how do you know two things are actually two things and not just one object and some trick done with mirrors? The simple test is to take one of them, change it, and see if that also changes the other. The problem is that, if you change something, how do you know it is the same thing as before ù almost by very definition, it is not, because the whole idea was to make it distinguishable from something that was the same thing. Yet, it maintains its identity, and that's the one thing that lets you make that comparison ù not just between the two objects, but between the one object before and after the change.
Or, again, if you break your leg, why are you still you? You're not the same in the slightest (new mood; new outlook on life; new vital statistics; your body reacts in completely new ways; some might even look at you and say "it's like I don't know you any more" due to how all of that changes how you act)à and chances are you'd still maintain that you are you. So what is this identity that survives all those drastic, yet completely mundane changes?
It's not a matter of "the copy is not perfect" ù it's a matter of there is no original, because the original will never resemble itself eitherà
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Lost Greybeard
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 21:24:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Tippia
Or, again, if you break your leg, why are you still you?
If your identity classification criteria include number of intact bones or approximate speed in a foot race, you aren't anymore.
Again, it comes down to how you define identity, like any other category. The response-testing bit is, again, how science resolves the question of whether things are identical: is the output for a given input the same in all relevant cases?
The only answer that completely resolves the question without straight-up listing criteria is to posit the existence of a supernatural soul, which is what we in academics call "a giant ****ing cop-out".
Poking one and seeing if the other also moves proves nothing, that only shows that your two objects <i>interact</i>.
---
If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 21:27:00 -
[101]
Exactly. Identity is hard.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Vol Arm'OOO
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 21:34:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/04/2011 20:55:47
Originally by: Ranger 1
There are indications that DUST mercs are going to have a variation of the cloning technology available to them, which means CCP will have to "wave their hands" as you say and announce an improved cloning/memory transfer process that is not reliant on a pod. Perhaps a new implant of some type linked to a clone vat on the command ships that hover over the battlefield.
àor they go the Planetside route: it's not the same kind of cloning and transfer because there is no need to maintain the mind. Create a baseline of hard-coded skills that get dumped into each clone; add in the mission-specific and role-specific skills required for this particular body; and finally download the latest update of battlefield intel (which is a light enough a data package that it can be collected and transmitted by the portable battlefield computers the troops carry), and the new clone is set to go.
They're meat ù not mind ù so there's no need for the cumbersome mind-saving tech in the pods. The experiences and learning that improves their chances for the next battle can be assembled as an aggregate from the debreifings/battle action reports from the meat that accidentally survives.
Ok sure -- but what about captins quarters and walking in stations -- after all their future vision shows someone being offed in a station. Under current mechanics how should that be handled? It seems to me that if there is memory loss -- that would create a disincentive to be in the stations which would be good for peopple that are worried that station walking will hurt the core game.
|
Judge Karlus
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 21:36:00 -
[103]
There really isn't any need to get all philosophical about this - fun as it might be - since it's all described by the game's lore. Capsuleers currently rely on Jovian technology that actually transfers a person's consciousness into a clone. This was, according to the lore article in which I found it, (and do not have a link to, I am sorry to say) a big improvement over the earlier method which had a tendency to bring about existential dread. In other words, while the physical body may be a copy (which is a bit silly since the "original" renews itself constantly) the consciousness of the capsuleer is not.
|
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 22:19:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Judge Karlus
There really isn't any need to get all philosophical about this - fun as it might be - since it's all described by the game's lore. Capsuleers currently rely on Jovian technology that actually transfers a person's consciousness into a clone. This was, according to the lore article in which I found it, (and do not have a link to, I am sorry to say) a big improvement over the earlier method which had a tendency to bring about existential dread. In other words, while the physical body may be a copy (which is a bit silly since the "original" renews itself constantly) the consciousness of the capsuleer is not.
Exactly, since the lore says capsuleers are immortal that people want to argue about datastreams this and copies that is mostly a bunch of rhetoric, as to really discuss these things in depth requires a lot more than "but if it is a copy of a copy then it must be a copy!" type arguments.
So if people could stick to the literature and the evidence laid out implicitly therein, it would definitely be a more interesting discussion.
---------------------------------
It seems quoting the CSM minutes in your signature is inappropriate content! Hurr hurr. |
J Kunjeh
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 22:23:00 -
[105]
This thread: only in Eve, only in Eve... Love it guys and gals. 
~Gnosis~ |
AlleyKat
Gallente
The Unwanted.
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 22:43:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Kronir
Ok, so when a pod pilot dies - they are copied, and the copy is placed into a new clone.
The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person.
So pod pilots are not immortal.
Unless of course their consciousness is somehow transferred to the new clone instead on being copied.
Two different things...
...so is it copied or transferred?
It is a similar discussion/distinction between intellectual property theft by use of file-sharing and torrent software.
One could realistically argue that as the original file has not been stolen, but mealy copied, it is not technically stealing and therefore is not piracy.
As long as the original body does not exist, then it is transference - however, if the original body does still exist, then the new body is a copy.
The only time this could conceivably happen would be a technical error in the communication of the signal to the cloning facility that informs them of a pod breach inaccurately.
Under these hypothetical circumstances, the copy would be destroyed, under orders of the original as there would be a violation in the cloning process that inadvertently transferred consciousness unnecessarily.
It would make for a good piece of fiction...
AK
EVE-ONLINE Video-Making Tutorials
Vid - New Tricks |
Cindy Marco
Minmatar
The Warp Rats
Apotheosis of Virtue
|
Posted - 2011.04.26 23:13:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Karak Terrel
Edited by: Karak Terrel on 26/04/2011 12:47:03
Originally by: Tzigan Jegos
Originally by: Karak Terrel
Originally by: Tzigan Jegos
You are not your body for the same reason a DVD is not a movie.
The movie is the configuration of the molecules on the surface of the DVD, so in that sense the DVD IS the movie and therefor the body IS you.
A movie is not made of plastic coated with silver. A DVD is. You don't believe me? Look up "movie" in a dictionary.
- If I arrange plastic and silver in a certain spatial configuration, I obtain a DVD containing a movie.
- If I arrange matter in the exact spatial configuration of your brain, I obtain a brain containing you.
In both cases I don't have the original DVD/brain. But I have the original movie/person.
Therefore the DVD isn't the movie and the brain isn't the person.
Consequently, a movie can be on copied on 2 DVDs and a person can be copied on 2 brains.
Your right, i agree
Edit: But that works only because the "Movie" does not change. A person however changes over time and that why it still is a bad analogy
But that isn't a good analogy. Any copy of a move you make a home is inferior to the quality of a pressed disk. They are close, and you (generally) can't tell the difference on a quality burn. There are always some errors, but the disk as a whole is close enough that it doesn't matter. No one would say that a burned disk contains a different movie then a stamped disk. In fact I could hand you dozens of disks, and the only way you would be able to tell which are pressed is by the look of the disk, not the movie you play from it.
I hold the same be true of anything. If a copy is close enough to the original that you can no longer identify them, they are both copies, or both originals. If you can copy all the thoughts, experiences, personality of someone so well that no one can tell a difference, they are the same person until they have different experiences. But in Eve that doesn't happen. One copy of you dies before a new one lives; your experiences will never diverge. You could make an argument about some of the people in the chronicles, but the players are always the same person.
ôLife is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.ö - Bill Hicks |
Keylah
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 00:12:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Keylah on 27/04/2011 00:16:24
TL;DR
If the scanner deep fries grey matter, then how is clone jumping accomplished, if not by transferring the pilots consciousness
to another clone?
Addition of Jump clones support transfer of consciousness theory.
How ever, backstory/scientific(in-game lore)states the original is killed and copied, and is for all intents and purposes a new person, living the life of the original.
-K
|
Draconyx
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 00:36:00 -
[109]
I suggest you read the following book.
Title : Voice of the Whirlwind
Author : Walter Jon Williams
A great book and well worth the read.
|
Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 00:38:00 -
[110]
The exact state of the brain (ie: each neuron, whether it's firing, etc) is transferred instantaneously to a new brain in a new body.
I agree that just copying memories over would just be making a new identical person, but that's not what's being done here.
-----WARNING SIGNATURE BELOW-----
Bring back the NeoNeoCom! |
|
|
Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 01:14:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Draconyx
I suggest you read the following book.
Title : Voice of the Whirlwind
Author : Walter Jon Williams
A great book and well worth the read.
If your going to do Walter Jon Williams check out Implied Spaces.
Very relevant to the discussion at hand.
Peter F Hamiltons stuff delves into this sort of thing a lot too. There is even a scene in Fallen dragon where this is discussed in some detail.
|
Saju Somtaaw
Kagan-Trjula Industrial
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 02:59:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Saju Somtaaw on 27/04/2011 02:59:21
I like how Card handled it in the Enderverse-every object from a speck of dust, to a tree, to a planet, to a person has a central aiura, which twines into all the philotic strands from all other philotes that make up the body. It is this Aiura that is your "soul", and your soul moves with it but is effected by the memories in the body, thus it is a combination of both that gives you consousness, though without the Aiura there is no form so it is more important.
(note Philotes are the most basic particle of matter in the enderverse, and the twining is similar to quantum entaglment)
---- --- ---
|
Mirabi Tiane
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 04:39:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Metal Icarus
(thats how it should be and any idea involving copying is ridiculously lacking thought)
Get over yourself. It's just lacking in the type of thought you prefer.
_____________________________
[Sebiestor tattoos and Intaki hair: NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER.] |
Nypheas Azurai
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 07:02:00 -
[114]
OP, watch Fifth Day if you need the hollywood explanation.
Simply put, the only way you can view consciousness is as a series of events up until time t. If a clone is made at t+1, you now have two identical consciousness, and since we are not tying consciousness to physical state (because if you did that, it would mean you lose consciousness everytime a single atom changes in your body every microsecond), then necessarily the consciousness is the same and only one consciousness.
Correctly, if you allow both copies to live they begin to diverge at t+n with n>1 as new events are likely to be experienced slightly differently by each consciousness thus creating a new stream. However if you destroy one of the copies (as is done on death/copying) then you still necessarily have only one same consciousness.
tl;dr it's copied and transferred, they are one in the same process when it comes to consciousness.
--------------------
|
TImora Fosty
Solar Pride
Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 07:08:00 -
[115]
Edited by: TImora Fosty on 27/04/2011 07:10:13
Originally by: Kronir
Ok, so when a pod pilot dies - they are copied, and the copy is placed into a new clone.
The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person.
So pod pilots are not immortal.
Unless of course their consciousness is somehow transferred to the new clone instead on being copied.
Two different things...
...so is it copied or transferred?
damn i love you 10/10
the discussion is going to: "Do we have a soul?"
|
Naphariel
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 07:59:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Naphariel on 27/04/2011 07:59:09
Originally by: TImora Fosty
Edited by: TImora Fosty on 27/04/2011 07:10:13
Originally by: Kronir
Ok, so when a pod pilot dies - they are copied, and the copy is placed into a new clone.
The new clone is therefore a copy of the original, which means it is not the same person.
So pod pilots are not immortal.
Unless of course their consciousness is somehow transferred to the new clone instead on being copied.
Two different things...
...so is it copied or transferred?
damn i love you 10/10
the discussion is going to: "Do we have a soul?"
and if we do have soul, does it get transferred along with our conciousness?
or does it go to some afterlife, and the new clone is soulless, like gingers/japanese people?
or is a new soul somehow created everytime you are cloned, and when the clone dies, it goes to afterlife, meaning the number of your souls there equals the number of times you were cloned, and you will have to spend an eternity with a million of your copies?
because i don't think i could put up with even one me. 
or am i just a copy too? 
|
TImora Fosty
Solar Pride
Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 08:21:00 -
[117]
Edited by: TImora Fosty on 27/04/2011 08:22:59
Or we have no soul =) simple as it is
if a capsuler awakened in a new shell is exactly the same person that he was before, then we have no soul, because there is no soul transfer technology.
edit: spelling >.<
|
Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 08:27:00 -
[118]
You do realize that almost all matter in your body gets switched out several times in your lifetime through natural processes? Is the person you were ten years ago a entirely different person than you are today because none of the matter it was made out of is any longer part of you? Or are you still the same individual because there is no original left made out of that matter from back then.
So if you make a copy and consume the original in the process, is the copy the original then or just a copy? If a copy is indistinguishable from the original in every way, how can you determine which is the copy and which is the original without prior knowledge?
Isn't a transfer nothing different than the destruction of the transfered item in one place and the creaion of it in the new place? At least with data transfers where the medium of communication is changed at least once would amount to this. Which would connect back to the question if a copy that consumes the original in the copying process is a copy or the original.
In the end, immortality through cloning and neuro-structure copying ("consciousness transfer") is only a matter of ego and identity issues. More a matter of semantics and world view than the objective reality of it.
Only time it could become a real issue would be when you end up with more than one copy at the same time and are incapable of determining which of those was active first. I guess that what happened with Zor and Kruul as often as we see them.
--------
|
TImora Fosty
Solar Pride
Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 09:12:00 -
[119]
I've just remembered jump clones... and now it looks like that EvE style reincarnation provides "soul" transfer as it looks like for me ... a "line of dreams"
damn that's the first thread i really like in this forum (=
|
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
|
Posted - 2011.04.27 10:15:00 -
[120]
I have bellybutton withdrawal syndrome. 
Also Known As |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |