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Din Chao
Seraphim Initiative Paradox Alliance
81
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Posted - 2012.09.05 21:28:00 -
[31] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Din Chao wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Low sec mining is profitable with the new barges but not if ya just want to go in and whine that people won't leave you alone. No, it isn't. Lowsec ores are virtually worthless. You're better off mining Veldspar in highsec. Ok, let me word it for a miner level of comprehension. After all exploration sites are finished in a low sec system that is good for ganks but not so much for anything else there used to be almost nothing to do because jet canning is really dumb. So now instead of just hanging around with probes out or cruising a few systems looking for more targets I can just hang in a belt and let the drills fill an ore hold. All the high sec ore is there too and my rocks are always huge and juicy no matter what they are. Hell, I got a faction scram last night off a belt rat...can I count that on my mining isk per/hr compared to your high sec veld? You're right. But I think you and the OP are coming at this from different perspectives. He appears to be an industrial guy, primarily, while you're obviously a PVP oriented fella who does the exploration/mining stuff to pay for other endeavors. So I still think, for him the risk may outweigh the reward. |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
37
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Posted - 2012.09.05 23:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Din Chao wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Din Chao wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Low sec mining is profitable with the new barges but not if ya just want to go in and whine that people won't leave you alone. No, it isn't. Lowsec ores are virtually worthless. You're better off mining Veldspar in highsec. Ok, let me word it for a miner level of comprehension. After all exploration sites are finished in a low sec system that is good for ganks but not so much for anything else there used to be almost nothing to do because jet canning is really dumb. So now instead of just hanging around with probes out or cruising a few systems looking for more targets I can just hang in a belt and let the drills fill an ore hold. All the high sec ore is there too and my rocks are always huge and juicy no matter what they are. Hell, I got a faction scram last night off a belt rat...can I count that on my mining isk per/hr compared to your high sec veld? You're right. But I think you and the OP are coming at this from different perspectives. He appears to be an industrial guy, primarily, while you're obviously a PVP oriented fella who does the exploration/mining stuff to pay for other endeavors. So I still think, for him the risk may outweigh the reward.
"Industrial guy" is another way of saying "lazy miner". What I hear is there should be better ore in low sec (which he wouldn't be able to mine either with the way he's doing it) or nicer people (but he thinks what he is doing is special and will reward him with premium prices).
My only endeavor is hanging around a few systems and exploiting the resources they have for money. That includes the rocks these days as much as the foolhardy mission runners. And for the record I am an indy guy, lots of skills in PI with 2 characters running it, I mine in low sec belts and have okish skills to refine, my hauler alt uses a freighter to move stuff around, I build and sell ships.....etc. The only difference is I will shoot my competition rather than asking them to please leave me alone so I can mine. That's EvE industry not this afk spreadsheet gimcrackery. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
126
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Posted - 2012.09.06 11:59:00 -
[33] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Yes Roquals can run in low sec, but so can dreads and carriers. The only thing keeping them out of high sec is the need for a cyno to jump to. Keep this in mind when setting up POS defenses. (I believe supers can not enter low sec but I may be wrong on that) .
You are wrong on that. Titans can't use the doomsday, otherwise supers are fully operational in lo sec.
if anyone wants to kill your pos with a cap fleet no amount of defences will stop it, you only need defences to prevent a passing gang reinforcing it.
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Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
192
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Posted - 2012.09.06 19:26:00 -
[34] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:[quote=Din ChaoIn the end, system security is everything to a profitable mining op. You have to provide enough protection to allow your barges to collect ore unmolested for hours at a time, or the op is just not worth doing.
This is what it boils down to. Those persons flying security, even assuming they could provide 100% security, could have been additional barges in a high sec operation. I love low sec mining ops because they can be fun, but they are not and cannot be as profitable as high sec. |
Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
11
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Posted - 2012.09.07 08:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
I think low-sec should be more of a middle ground between null and high. As it stands, from a miner/exploration perspective, it's just the same as null minus the sovereignty. |
Bullz3y3
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2012.09.09 17:32:00 -
[36] - Quote
This has revealed what everyone knows but will never admit. There are too many hunters for the prey. Its just like a out of wack ecosystem. |
Piugattuk
CLOROFLORFILAPLANKTONPLATES
38
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Posted - 2012.09.09 18:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
Din Chao wrote:This is what the majority of the "nerf highsec" crew fails to address. If moving to lowsec actually was more profitable than staying in highsec, miners would find a way to be there. But the lowsec ores are such a joke, it's just silly to try.
WRONG, do you not see the size of them floating turduckins compared to hi sec roids they are massive, the problem is the people there make the bed they live in. |
Bullz3y3
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2012.09.09 22:32:00 -
[38] - Quote
An actual fix to this out of wack eco system would be to have low setup like FW for each empire. For example, you as a player are in a starter corp for caldari, you are a 'privateer' for caldari. In their lowsec space you can engage their enemies but NOT their allies (at least not without penalty and those penalties are already there.) This would fit with the back story of eve, empires fighting empires.
Player corps and alliances would have to declare a empire like FW corps, but these would be privateer ratings, not military, the same rules as above apply, WITH the addition of the FW rules that you cant dock in a enemy station (and apply this to outlaws too above 0.5 security). Want to fight a corp/alliance in the same faction? declare war. Corps/alliances with players that shoot allies take a hit to their standings when a player does that.
What would this do? It would stop casual roamers of the same faction from hunting their own. It would lead to more diverse trade hubs. You could still gate camp, pirate, whatever, but it would have to make sense in the larger eve universe. |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
37
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Posted - 2012.09.10 23:37:00 -
[39] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Din Chao wrote:This is what the majority of the "nerf highsec" crew fails to address. If moving to lowsec actually was more profitable than staying in highsec, miners would find a way to be there. But the lowsec ores are such a joke, it's just silly to try. WRONG, do you not see the size of them floating turduckins compared to hi sec roids they are massive, the problem is the people there make the bed they live in.
What bed would that be? You have to work with the people who live there or die? At least you have it right that it isn't just that low sec ores are useful but that all the others are in greater abundance, too. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
67
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Posted - 2012.09.11 15:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
I just wanted to post a coda to this little adventure: I moved my POS to a .5 system out in a lonely backwater, and I found that my income more than tripled in a week -- mainly due to the ability to keep my mining barges out in the belts for a greater percentage of the time. For the negligible cost of some starbase charters, my mining outpost is finally making good ISK on a reliable basis. I've even decided to branch out into PI and small-scale manufacturing (mainly for personal consumption, since there aren't any trade hubs close to where I live).
One thing I've noticed: miners are chockablock in the central Empire systems, but the further out you go towards lowsec, the rarer the miners are. I'm not sure if this is due to the longer logistics chain or the perception of higher risk in .5 systems, but I'm beginning to wonder if the high trit and pye prices are simply because there aren't enough miners out there. I would have scoffed at this notion a few weeks ago, but now? Not so much. Getting rid of the botters and the drone poo took a lot of minerals out of the game. Good for me (more ISK!) but it means expensive minerals for manufacturers.
So here is my "lessons learned" summary from the past few weeks:
1. Lowsec is pointless from an industrial standpoint, unless you are in a large and active corp that can provide funding, security, and logistics. 2. The lower the security of a system, the better for mining...until you get to .5. Below .5, see point 1. 3. Profitable mining requires toons with high skills -- mining, astrogeology, mining barge, exhumers, refining, etc. All need to be at level V. 4. You need a freighter (or money to pay Red Frog) because to make a profit you have to sell in bulk. 5. A mining-outpost POS is very handy because it allows you to operate far from crowded systems. It also allows you do do other stuff (research, manufacturing). However, it entails large costs that your mining ops have to cover without killing your profit margin. 6. Orca support is vital if your corp is big enough, especially if you can't or don't want to set up a POS outpost. (Orcas are also great if you want to mine in certain missions because they can go through many deadspace gates that a barge can't -- so you just load your barges into your Orca and warp into the mission site to mine out all those tasty roids. "Break Their Will" is a mission where Orca support is almost a requirement if you want to mine out that belt.) 7. I'm still not sure the Mackinaw is really worth the ISK. A Retriever does damned near as good a job for a hell of a lot less ISK. Ditto the Covetor over the Hulk. You're going to have to mine for a long time to make up the difference in cost between a Retriever and a Mackinaw. And losing a Retriever to a ganker hurts a lot less than losing a Mack. And training-time to get into a Retriever/Covetor is a lot shorter than for exhumers. 8. Doing PI in parallel with your mining ops is a good way to augment your ISK for very little effort. You can train up your PI skills quickly, so it's not much of a hit. (And if you live in a POS, you can manufacture your own fuel.)
The upshot is that hisec mining as a profession is undergoing something of a renaissance these days. I'm actually making good ISK for the first time in forever. Mining no longer seems like such a chump's game. |
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
23
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Posted - 2012.10.09 17:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
The other downside to Jump Freighters is the cyno that every person in EvE can see. Do it often enough and someone will come looking for that supercap fleet they've been chasing for weeks and take their frustrations out on you. :p
Low Sec can be profitable, but you can't make your focus on any one thing and expect it to be a replacement for high sec. The trick is to diversify. PI and Reactions are profitable, and mining can be done, but it won't compare to high sec efficiency.
So if you are like me, study the vast array of low sec systems carefully. Apply your own filters to them, then go take a look. But don't just plan to mine asteroids, plan to do PI and moon mining. |
Matarella
The Last Call. Black Core Alliance
13
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Posted - 2012.10.09 17:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
you are pretty ******** to jump a JF to anything outside of a dock range.
Or at a POS were you are 120% positive nobody will notice it untill the freighter moved inside the shield (6KM max if the cyno was lit right on the shield). That means the system with the cyno and any system next to it empty. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
23
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Posted - 2012.10.09 23:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
That isn't the point. The point is you can attract unwanted attention just by doing it. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
192
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Posted - 2012.10.10 13:57:00 -
[44] - Quote
Matarella wrote:you are pretty ******** to jump a JF to anything outside of a dock range.
Or at a POS were you are 120% positive nobody will notice it untill the freighter moved inside the shield (6KM max if the cyno was lit right on the shield). That means the system with the cyno and any system next to it empty.
Yes, using the tactical overlay you can jump your JF into docking range of any station. The tricky part is getting it back to high sec.
As far as the cyno drawing attention. If you are using a safe spot, you wait until there is nobody in the system to lite it. If you are in a back water low sec with low activity that will not be a problem. If you use a disposable cyno ship on an alt with no implants who cares if the cyno ships gets popped. The key is to not lite the cyno until you are ready to jump, and jump immediately when it is lite. If done right your JF will have warped off before anyone who saw the cyno gets there.
Another option is to jump directly to a station or POS. It takes some practice to learn where to lite the cyno at each station. (SISI is a great place to practice). Jumping to a deathstar POS is tricky as if you lite the cyno to close you can bounce off the shield and end up hundreds of km away. Use the tactical overlay so that the 5km ring does not enter the shield. Also I believe you can still bump the JF into the POS shield if it lands 8-10k away.
I have also heard of using a offline small tower as a safe spot. you can light the cyno just over 5k from the tower while the shield is down. Jump in and raise the shield as soon as the JF lands. If you jump as soon as you lite it the shield will be up long before anyone has a chance to warp to the cyno.
Jump freighter logistics, although not easy, are very safe if you know what to do, when to do it, and what not to do. |
Faxtarious
Kai-Zen inc.
0
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Posted - 2012.10.10 20:45:00 -
[45] - Quote
That was a great read. Thanks OP for the experiment.
Hope you can keep us uodated on your future endeavors. |
BobFenner
Black Hole Runners
34
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Posted - 2012.10.11 11:43:00 -
[46] - Quote
Very interesting read. Been thinking of purchasing a jump freighter for corporate use and the tips you supplied on here would make it much easier than I imagined! My missus thinks of EvE as 'the other woman'. :) |
Lavitakus Bromier
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.10.12 15:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
Don't low sec have the same ores as high sec or? Just in greater amounts on one riod? If so wouldn't it be more profit mining say like pyrox or plaig there? You just need protection. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
164
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Posted - 2012.10.12 17:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
Lavitakus Bromier wrote:Don't low sec have the same ores as high sec or? Just in greater amounts on one riod? If so wouldn't it be more profit mining say like pyrox or plaig there? You just need protection.
Different roids in null. The high ends like Arkonor, Bistot, Mercoxit, and Crokite only occur in nullsec. You do find low-ends in null like Veldspar etc., but in nothing like the concentrations you see in high sec space. This was a deliberate design decision by CCP to place the "higher value" ores in nullsec space to drive players out of high sec in search of higher profits. Ironically, so-called "low end" ores are now more valuable than any ore other than Arkonor on an ISK/m3 basis. |
Lavitakus Bromier
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.10.13 00:18:00 -
[49] - Quote
Hmm.. Then suggestion would be to make roids in null and low sec yeild more of the basic ores. |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
91
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Posted - 2012.10.14 16:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
Sounds to me like you need to invest in a jump freighter. I have sucessfully mined lowsec for jaspet on quite a few occasions and this is all made possible by a few jump freighter runs out of the far reaches of lowsec. I'm talking about areas of space where there are 3 jumps a day type places that dead end into nothing.
Now if I was a betting man I would say that you were 2 jumps into low sec at a dead end, that was at most 7 jumps from a trade hub, and your conclusion that it wasn't on a trade route was wrong. It was probably a dogleg system that people just check because of a possible ice belt?
If you want to do it successfully you have to get out there far enough that noone has a reason to be there. There are hundreds of lowsec areas like that. Try one of those. |
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Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
169
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Posted - 2012.10.14 17:09:00 -
[51] - Quote
Schalac wrote:Sounds to me like you need to invest in a jump freighter. I have sucessfully mined lowsec for jaspet on quite a few occasions and this is all made possible by a few jump freighter runs out of the far reaches of lowsec. I'm talking about areas of space where there are 3 jumps a day type places that dead end into nothing.
Now if I was a betting man I would say that you were 2 jumps into low sec at a dead end, that was at most 7 jumps from a trade hub, and your conclusion that it wasn't on a trade route was wrong. It was probably a dogleg system that people just check because of a possible ice belt?
If you want to do it successfully you have to get out there far enough that noone has a reason to be there. There are hundreds of lowsec areas like that. Try one of those.
I thought about that, but really, if I'm going to go to all that trouble I might as well just go back out to null and do it right. It's pretty much the same amount of work either way, and nullsec is much easier to operate in than lowsec is. Even in NPC null.
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