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Heavy Cruisers vs. Battleships

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MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.02.10 09:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Parallax I understand its tech 2 and I understand that a piolts skill can change the outcome of individual encounters, but it seems to me from purely a skill training perspective that a tech 2 cruiser should be greater in power than a tech 1 battleship while a tech 2 battleship (whenver they may arrive) would be king. That's not the case. A heavy assault cruiser is merely a specialized version of it's T1 equivalent. The usual pros & cons of the shipclass itself still apply though, which implies that even a HAC is vulnerable to battleships. The high skill requirements are justified when you compare HACs to their T1 equivalents. They're not only much more powerful when compared to their own class's ships but also they are so powerful that they even become a serious threat to a battleship in a given 1on1 scenario. You shouldn't say "wtf it's less powerful than a bs!". It's more like "wtf this thing is so extreme it can even kill a bs given the right circumstances!". Mai's Idealog
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2005.02.10 10:12:00 - [32] The original argument was that since HACs need more SPs to fly than BSs, HACs should be the better ships. Well, it also takes more skill points to fly logistics cruisers, assault frigates, and interceptors. Should any of them be able to destroy a battleship more often than not? Of course not! Assault cruisers and battleships are different types of ship and have different uses. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
meowcat	Posted - 2005.02.10 10:37:00 - [33] i would be worried if a had a Diemos next to me whilst flying a sniperthron. similarly, i would be concerned about a raven or gankageddon whilst in a diemos at 30km like all things Eve, setup is king ~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~ yeah but no but yeah but no but
snutt	Posted - 2005.02.10 10:52:00 - [34] Edited by: snutt on 10/02/2005 10:55:23 Originally by: Raem Civrie I'd use my Deimos for PvP if it wasn't for the fact that it's hard as hell to find one on a short notice, while I can buy gankageddons in Yulai. Of course, the Deimos has better tanking and only a bit less damage output than the gankageddon... Uhm.. no . A gankgeddon do ~900hp/s with good skills, 7x 425s do about 240hp/s on a megathron, and a deimos with heavy electrons do 220hp/s. Unless one consider 680hp/s 'only a bit less damage output', then uhm.. right whatever. Mess with the best, die like the rest Real men structure tank
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.02.10 11:12:00 - [35] There does appear to be a general consensus that because HACs take so many skillpoints to fly, and are so expensive to maintain, that they must be able to take on a measly Battleship. Not so - given the right circumstance a HAC can destroy a Battleship e.g. a Deimos getting under 10Km on an Armageddon usually spells a sticky end for the Amarr behemoth - but on the general scale of things, a well-piloted Battleship usually comes out the victor. What they are, as mentioned above, are highly-advanced versions of their mother ship. In the case of the Deimos, it's basically a super Thorax - with weapon systems, capacitor and armour that would make a Cruiser run for cover, and a Battleship certainly re-consider its situation. Indeed, I have fought two Thoraxes at the same time in the Deimos - and the result? Two kill-mails sixty seconds apart, they really are that much better than your average cruiser. Battle Angels Inc - The Movie
Paniq	Posted - 2005.02.10 11:15:00 - [36] Originally by: Gariuys They're advanced, really kick ass cruisers! anyhthing else you think they should or should not do is complete bull****. They're cruisers t2 cruisers, not battleship eaters, godships, or flying squirrels. If that doesn't do it for you, fly something else. I wanted a flying squirrel...
Xavier Cardde	Posted - 2005.02.10 11:25:00 - [37] Originally by: Parallax I understand its tech 2 and I understand that a piolts skill can change the outcome of individual encounters, but it seems to me from purely a skill training perspective that a tech 2 cruiser should be greater in power than a tech 1 battleship while a tech 2 battleship (whenver they may arrive) would be king. HAS's at most cost 80 mil... they shouldnt be able to solo a Raven or Apoc.
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.02.10 11:37:00 - [38] Originally by: snutt Edited by: snutt on 10/02/2005 10:55:23 Originally by: Raem Civrie I'd use my Deimos for PvP if it wasn't for the fact that it's hard as hell to find one on a short notice, while I can buy gankageddons in Yulai. Of course, the Deimos has better tanking and only a bit less damage output than the gankageddon... Uhm.. no . A gankgeddon do ~900hp/s with good skills, 7x 425s do about 240hp/s on a megathron, and a deimos with heavy electrons do 220hp/s. Unless one consider 680hp/s 'only a bit less damage output', then uhm.. right whatever. A good skilled deimos pilot can get close too 500dps out of his deimos. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Slithereen	Posted - 2005.02.10 11:38:00 - [39] A Zealot with 4 Heavy Pulse 2s, and at least three Heat Sink IIs. That machine will cut you in half like a buzzsaw by the time you finish this sentence. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
snutt	Posted - 2005.02.10 12:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: snutt Edited by: snutt on 10/02/2005 10:55:23 Originally by: Raem Civrie I'd use my Deimos for PvP if it wasn't for the fact that it's hard as hell to find one on a short notice, while I can buy gankageddons in Yulai. Of course, the Deimos has better tanking and only a bit less damage output than the gankageddon... Uhm.. no . A gankgeddon do ~900hp/s with good skills, 7x 425s do about 240hp/s on a megathron, and a deimos with heavy electrons do 220hp/s. Unless one consider 680hp/s 'only a bit less damage output', then uhm.. right whatever. A good skilled deimos pilot can get close too 500dps out of his deimos. The calculations was done with level 5 in all skills. Furthermore; 5x Neutron IIs + 5 MFSIIs (+1x rcu to fit) = ~650hp/s, and that leaves no room for MWD. 5x Ion IIs + 6 MFSIIs = ~680hp/s, with some more room for mwd. To reach over 500hp/s you'll need to fit 5 Ion IIs and atleast 3 MFSIIs. Same as above but with 2 MFSIIs put you at 460hp/s. But it doesn't really matter. The point I was trying to make was simply that his statement was ridiculous and purely based on speculations. Mess with the best, die like the rest Real men structure tank
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.02.10 12:12:00 - [41] Originally by: snutt Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: snutt Edited by: snutt on 10/02/2005 10:55:23 Originally by: Raem Civrie I'd use my Deimos for PvP if it wasn't for the fact that it's hard as hell to find one on a short notice, while I can buy gankageddons in Yulai. Of course, the Deimos has better tanking and only a bit less damage output than the gankageddon... Uhm.. no . A gankgeddon do ~900hp/s with good skills, 7x 425s do about 240hp/s on a megathron, and a deimos with heavy electrons do 220hp/s. Unless one consider 680hp/s 'only a bit less damage output', then uhm.. right whatever. A good skilled deimos pilot can get close too 500dps out of his deimos. The calculations was done with level 5 in all skills. Furthermore; 5x Neutron IIs + 5 MFSIIs (+1x rcu to fit) = ~650hp/s, and that leaves no room for MWD. 5x Ion IIs + 6 MFSIIs = ~680hp/s, with some more room for mwd. To reach over 500hp/s you'll need to fit 5 Ion IIs and atleast 3 MFSIIs. Same as above but with 2 MFSIIs put you at 460hp/s. But it doesn't really matter. The point I was trying to make was simply that his statement was ridiculous and purely based on speculations. I said close too and wasn't even assuming lvl 4s, you are however forgetting the 10 med drones, which combined with a reasonable 2 MFSII setup and some ions, puts you at around the 500dps mark with good skills. You're right though it doesn't compaire too a gankageddon. Although with superior tracking against a battleship that 500 damage is quite a bit more. But getting that into the equiation accurately is all but impossible. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Parallax	Posted - 2005.02.10 13:58:00 - [42] Thanks for all the great reply's everybody. As an old newbie, (I played EVE when it first came out for a few months and just recently came back) I appreciate the feedback and the clarification. The idea of piloting a HAC greatly appeals to me but I wanted to know what role the ship plays. I'll probably go way of the battleship before I end up flying a HAC. But, there is no rush. I want to maximize my abilites as a tier 1 cruiser pilot and probably a battlecruiser before I rush into a battleship. Once again. Thanks.
Tarm	Posted - 2005.02.10 14:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Parallax Thanks for all the great reply's everybody. As an old newbie, (I played EVE when it first came out for a few months and just recently came back) I appreciate the feedback and the clarification. The idea of piloting a HAC greatly appeals to me but I wanted to know what role the ship plays. I'll probably go way of the battleship before I end up flying a HAC. But, there is no rush. I want to maximize my abilites as a tier 1 cruiser pilot and probably a battlecruiser before I rush into a battleship. Once again. Thanks. I wouldn't fly a HAC until you have extensive (read:months) of BS training. Fighting in a battleship gives you the feel of your ship and your enemy's. When you understand what battleships can do in combat, you can successfully engage them in a HAC (or run). If you don't know what the other person has fitted, or how PvP against multiple opponents works, you will be a very short-lived HAC pilot. Plus, HACs are dang expensive. -------------------
DARKKK	Posted - 2005.02.10 14:41:00 - [44] I have one quite stupid question: can i fly gallente HAC if i don't have gallente frig lvl5?
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2005.02.10 14:45:00 - [45] Originally by: DAR*** I have one quite stupid question: can i fly gallente HAC if i don't have gallente frig lvl5? You can, but you do need Gallente Cruiser skill to level 5, as well as Heavy Assault Ships to level 1. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
DARKKK	Posted - 2005.02.10 15:04:00 - [46] and requirement for hac skill is assault ship lvl4, which i have from other race... great :)
Parallax	Posted - 2005.02.10 15:16:00 - [47] Originally by: DAR*** and requirement for hac skill is assault ship lvl4, which i have from other race... great :) The level 5 gallente cruiser is the real show stopper. That will take many moons to train up.
Anjerrai Meloanis	Posted - 2005.02.10 15:27:00 - [48] what 20 days for cruiser 5? hardly long... uh.
Parallax	Posted - 2005.02.10 15:32:00 - [49] Edited by: Parallax on 10/02/2005 15:32:35 Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis what 20 days for cruiser 5? hardly long... You can train a 5x skill to level 5 in 20 days?
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.02.10 15:47:00 - [50] Originally by: Parallax Edited by: Parallax on 10/02/2005 15:32:35 Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis what 20 days for cruiser 5? hardly long... You can train a 5x skill to level 5 in 20 days? with good learning skills and good atributes, yes B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.02.10 15:47:00 - [51] Depends on your attributes; I have 24 perception and willpower, and trained Gallente Cruiser 5 in about 20-21 days, with HAC 5 taking about 26 (rank 6). Battle Angels Inc - The Movie
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.02.10 15:55:00 - [52] it takes less than 23d with perc19/will24 yup i'm blind amarr
Parallax	Posted - 2005.02.10 15:57:00 - [53] Originally by: Dash Ripcock Depends on your attributes; I have 24 perception and willpower, and trained Gallente Cruiser 5 in about 20-21 days, with HAC 5 taking about 26 (rank 6). Nice. It will take me a lot longer than that with my current character. I stand corrected.
piercer	Posted - 2005.02.10 16:27:00 - [54] Originally by: Sangxianc Heavy Assault Cruisers are sexy, Battleships are boring and everyone flies them. to true. im training for a sacrilage because: 1) they rock 2) they r pimpin 3) they rock 4) they r pimpin 5) they rock oh and: 6)they rock ---------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Bunny had an accident. Bunny lost his head.
Ortu Konsinni	Posted - 2005.02.10 16:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Deakgu I would train for t2 cruisers anyway, as it will be required for t2 bs Uh, how do you know? T2 cruisers don't need Frigate V; I doubt T2 battleships will require Cruiser V.
Tarm	Posted - 2005.02.10 20:50:00 - [56] Edited by: Tarm on 10/02/2005 20:52:33 Originally by: Ortu Konsinni Originally by: Deakgu I would train for t2 cruisers anyway, as it will be required for t2 bs Uh, how do you know? T2 cruisers don't need Frigate V; I doubt T2 battleships will require Cruiser V. Please keep in mind that the Heavy Assault skill requires Assault Ships lvl 4 to train, but not the race specific frigate 5. The ships themselves require a lvl 5 ship skill. The Dreadnoughts will most likely require Assualt Ships 4, Heavy Assault ships 4, and all related skill requirements.....NOT frigate nor cruiser level 5. -------------------
Baun	Posted - 2005.02.10 21:45:00 - [57] Originally by: piercer Originally by: Sangxianc Heavy Assault Cruisers are sexy, Battleships are boring and everyone flies them. to true. im training for a sacrilage because: 1) they rock 2) they r pimpin 3) they rock 4) they r pimpin 5) they rock oh and: 6)they rock They also do about as much damage as a sneeze The Enemy's Gate is Down
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.02.10 21:51:00 - [58] Without wanting to be an ass, but...Any HAC setup for BS killing, will own a BS in a 1v1. The only possible exception being the Raven, and a jamming Scorp. And most setups involving more then 2 L Nosf. And ... Actually, i think you see where im going towards right? /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
VossKarr	Posted - 2005.02.10 22:44:00 - [59] Originally by: Tarm The Dreadnoughts will most likely require Assualt Ships 4, Heavy Assault ships 4, and all related skill requirements.....NOT frigate nor cruiser level 5. Dreads? I doubt that. T2 battleships, on the other hand, most likely will.
Jane Vladmir	Posted - 2005.02.10 23:24:00 - [60] Originally by: Joshua Calvert HAC = tech 2 BS = tech 1. That explains the requirements. I am quite sure a HAC has beaten a BS in 1vs 1 on a number of occasions but it all comes down to the skill of pilots. I've beaten inty's in a frig, AF's in an inty, cruisers in an AF, cruisers in an inty, and cruisers in a frig. If you trained for a HAC thinking it was a BS beater then you just wasted some sp's. I call them potential setups, but sure, skill is good.

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