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Vile Belief	Posted - 2011.05.07 22:00:00 - [1] I just came back to the game. Before I left, rockets were receiving some loving. What ever happen to the change? I see it in the old patch notes, but how do rockets fair in terms of real combat? Worth fitting?
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.05.07 22:27:00 - [2] Edited by: Von Kroll on 07/05/2011 22:27:41 On the dedicated PvP frigates that can fit rockets, they are now a very legitimate weapon type. Hawks, Hookbills, Kestrels, Merlins, can make very good use of them. Scram/Webs should be considered mandatory though, just to increase the damage.
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.05.07 22:28:00 - [3] Edited by: Mutnin on 07/05/2011 22:28:18 http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=9149149 You tell me.. tl;dr Yeah they work pretty good now days, but like any other weapon system they have their draw backs.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.05.07 22:28:00 - [4] Rockets are awesome now. They got a damage, clip size and explosion velocity buff and the Hawk got an increased damage bonus. Very workable weapon system now. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
RougeOperator	Posted - 2011.05.07 22:31:00 - [5] They work now, look at the amount of people flying rocket ships these days. Merlin are good now even with split weapons. Tristans get more DPS like merlin. Inquisitor is pretty good now. Hookbills are deadly. Rifters fit rockets in the last mid now and not just default to Nos like they used too. In short, yes they work now. And work well.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.05.07 22:32:00 - [6] And Kestrels can mount some unholy gank fits. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Vile Belief	Posted - 2011.05.08 00:52:00 - [7] Edited by: Vile Belief on 08/05/2011 00:52:30 How much DPS are we looking at here for a merlin with them fitted? What about tech II ammo or people still fitting faction? I don't know about a speed reduction to get the right ammo for smaller targets.
Yabba Addict	Posted - 2011.05.08 03:28:00 - [8] The only time you really want to use T2 rage ammo is against cruiser size and above tbh, they really aren't much good against frigs unless you happen across a super tank jag and you have dual webs. Even then i'd stick to the faction unless the T2 rage were already loaded. The javelins on the other hand can be quite handy at chasing off kiting ships (not inties though), and i always carry them just in case a DD, harpy or dram tries to pin me from range. I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! I want to smell dark matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I'm a machine! And I can know much more.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.05.08 14:05:00 - [9] Originally by: Vile Belief Edited by: Vile Belief on 08/05/2011 00:52:30 How much DPS are we looking at here for a merlin with them fitted? What about tech II ammo or people still fitting faction? I don't know about a speed reduction to get the right ammo for smaller targets. DPS numbers in EFT don't look impressive at all, but in actual combat against another T1 PvP Frig like a Rifter, Tristan, etc., this thing is extremely competitive: [Merlin, Solo Merlin] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Medium Shield Extender II Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Rigs to taste. If you want less tank, there's CPU and a little grid available for missile and hybrid rigs, but I like this fit a lot. Some folks use blasters instead of rails, but again, its up to you.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.08 14:28:00 - [10] Rockets are now a viable weapon platform, finally. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Vile Belief	Posted - 2011.05.08 15:56:00 - [11] Thanks I'm trying to build new rocket setups but it's hard to find the real DPS numbers as rockets damage vary depending on speeds and signature radius. It doesn't look that great in EFT and it's important to find that balance of damage mods versus tank. If anyone has an updated missile DPS calculator please let me know.
Haradriel Tian	Posted - 2011.05.08 16:36:00 - [12] Web and Rage Rockets work nice. Javs give you range if you got something that sticks outside your normal engagement range like a slicer, DD or something.
Vile Belief	Posted - 2011.05.08 16:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Haradriel Tian Web and Rage Rockets work nice. Javs give you range if you got something that sticks outside your normal engagement range like a slicer, DD or something. Rage + Web better than Faction + Web on Frigs?
Thenoran Caldari Tranquility Industries	Posted - 2011.05.08 22:43:00 - [14] Hmm, curious about the Vengeance now. It can support a mean tank (i prefer a dual rep tank over a 400mm plate) and then slowly batter away at the target with rockets. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.05.09 00:02:00 - [15] Edited by: Mutnin on 09/05/2011 00:07:01 Edited by: Mutnin on 09/05/2011 00:05:59 Originally by: Thenoran Hmm, curious about the Vengeance now. It can support a mean tank (i prefer a dual rep tank over a 400mm plate) and then slowly batter away at the target with rockets. I haven't tried the Vengeance since the Rocket buff but I've played around with a brawler Malediction fit, both of which get the same 5% Rocket damage bonus. The only damage difference between the two, is the Veng has a total of 4 rockets, instead of the 3 that the Mal gets. I can tell you that the damage out-put from the Mal was absolutely horrible even with the rocket buff & the 5% damage per Amarr frig level. (ie 25%). The fit it's self was pretty awesome, as it used a sm repper with NOS and a AB with a tracking disruptor. This meant nothing with a turret could hit it. The problem was the damage was so bad I had a Rifter actually de-aggro mid fight and hump out because I couldn't kill him in time. It's absolutely the worst DPS I've ever experienced out of a T2 frig and I honestly don't think the 4th launcher on a Vengeance would add that much. The Reason Rockets are working well on Caldari platforms, is because ships like the Kestrel, Hookbill & Hawk all get a 10% damage bonus to kin damage (ie 50%) rather than a 5% (25%) across the board. When using rockets as a supporting weapon system on Rifters, Tristans & Merlins they are just extra un-bonused damage that is worth while now. TL;DR While the Rocket buff did fix a lot of ships, it sadly didn't help the Amarr T2 frigs much. The Vengeance being of of them as it appears to be just as bad as the Mal in damage out-put meaning it will take too long to kill stuff.
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2011.05.09 00:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Mutnin I can tell you that the damage out-put from the Mal was absolutely horrible even with the rocket buff & the 5% damage per Amarr frig level. (ie 25%). The fit it's self was pretty awesome, as it used a sm repper with NOS and a AB with a tracking disruptor. This meant nothing with a turret could hit it. Your awesome fit lacked a web, which resulted in abysmal applied dps.
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.05.09 01:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Arec Bardwin Originally by: Mutnin I can tell you that the damage out-put from the Mal was absolutely horrible even with the rocket buff & the 5% damage per Amarr frig level. (ie 25%). The fit it's self was pretty awesome, as it used a sm repper with NOS and a AB with a tracking disruptor. This meant nothing with a turret could hit it. Your awesome fit lacked a web, which resulted in abysmal applied dps. Can't fit everything on a ship plus a kitchen sink.. With a web instead of a TD the ship wouldn't last 10 seconds against a Rifter or just about any decent T1 frig. They they would still out damage it and I was trying to make a useful fit from a horriable ship. It was also pretty **** poor against cruiser hulls, which don't need a web to hit once scramed. Show me any other weapon system in the game that "requires" use of webs to kill with. Sure webs will help apply DPS with Turrets and normal missile systems, but they aren't required as it appears to be the case with Rockets. Not to mention the last ship I killed was a Rocket fit Crow while I was in a Tristan. It was a very close fight and his Crow had no web and it put out a hell of a lot more damage than the Mal does with rockets. Moral of the story is.. 50% damage bonus to 1 damage type > than 25% damage type to all.
Gibbo3771	Posted - 2011.05.09 01:23:00 - [18] I killed 14 dramiels and 4 daredevils in the space of a month using rockets. They are useful, if not in some cases overpowered. Like a frigate doing 300dps with blasters does less dps than a frigate doing 150dps with rockets, as rockets hit 100% of the time doing full damage (if he has mwd and its off and you haz him webbed) I have taken down dramiels faster with my hookbill than I have with my max skilled all lvl5 taranis spec'd character. Despite it does less than half the dps
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.05.09 02:44:00 - [19] Edited by: Mutnin on 09/05/2011 02:53:08 Originally by: Gibbo3771 Confirming your an idiot. fit a web and cause mass amounts of **. Veng vs 2 Sabres Malediction Vs Slicer Confirming killing a Slicer with no tank and -1k HP from other ship damage means Rockets are OP. If you read my post you would see that I'm not dissing "Rockets". I'm saying that the 10% to 1 damage type is far better than 5% across the board. Add that to the fact that Cakldari frigs have the mids needed to make Rockets work and maybe you can start to see what I'm talking about. Sure you can make a Veng or a Mal work in certain situations, but they are far inferior to Caldari's rocket platforms. Meaning it's not so much the weapon type as it is the ships ability to use them.. (ie damage bonus + slot layouts) btw I looked at your KB and while yes some of your Dram/DD kills in the last month were in Rocket fit Hawks and 1 in a Veng, many of them were not, so don't spice up the argument with inaccurate fluff. BTW the reason your Hookbill takes down Drams faster than a Max skilled Ranis is because the Hookbill is the best Dram killer in the game. Why is it the best Dram killer in the game? Because it has "5" mid slots and 3 lows with a 20%** bonus per level to Kin rocket damage and 10% to all other damage types.. That's hardly comparable to any other rocket frig in the game. If it had the same bonus to Blasters, AC's or Lasers with the same slot layout it would likely be the best frig in the game.
Gypsy Davey	Posted - 2011.05.09 02:50:00 - [20] Originally by: Mutnin Sure you can make a Veng or a Mal work in certain situations, but they are far inferior to Caldari's rocket platforms. Meaning it's not so much the weapon type as it is the ships ability to use them.. (ie damage bonus + slot layouts) I would tend to think khanid ships were superior based on their ability to field a workable tank instead of just gimmick suicide rocket fits like you see on the thin armor buffered caldari ships. Since you absolutely want the web, point, and prop in the mids, there is really no room for shield tanking. Thus most of the caldari ships have a wasted shield bonus.
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.05.09 03:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Gypsy Davey Originally by: Mutnin Sure you can make a Veng or a Mal work in certain situations, but they are far inferior to Caldari's rocket platforms. Meaning it's not so much the weapon type as it is the ships ability to use them.. (ie damage bonus + slot layouts) I would tend to think khanid ships were superior based on their ability to field a workable tank instead of just gimmick suicide rocket fits like you see on the thin armor buffered caldari ships. Since you absolutely want the web, point, and prop in the mids, there is really no room for shield tanking. Thus most of the caldari ships have a wasted shield bonus. Yea but with thew exception of the Crow which is typically used as a missile platform anyway.. The Caldari frigs have the ability to fit the tank in the mids + AB, Web & point.. As well as a damage mod in the low. Look at the Hawk fore example.. it can fit 4x rockets, neut, AB, MSE, web, scram then either a DCU or BCU + a speed mod in the lows. While it lacks the tank of a Veng, it's putting out more damage and has better ability to control range using a web & neut. It can also swap out the neut for a NOS and go active tanked. It's all rock paper scissors as with any other kind of ship. The point I'm getting at is the Amarr frigs could really use a 10% damage bonus to 1 damage type (EM) as they would then be more in-line with their racial damage type & would be on par with Caldai rocket frigs in the damage dept.
Gypsy Davey	Posted - 2011.05.09 03:34:00 - [22] Originally by: Mutnin Originally by: Gypsy Davey Originally by: Mutnin Sure you can make a Veng or a Mal work in certain situations, but they are far inferior to Caldari's rocket platforms. Meaning it's not so much the weapon type as it is the ships ability to use them.. (ie damage bonus + slot layouts) I would tend to think khanid ships were superior based on their ability to field a workable tank instead of just gimmick suicide rocket fits like you see on the thin armor buffered caldari ships. Since you absolutely want the web, point, and prop in the mids, there is really no room for shield tanking. Thus most of the caldari ships have a wasted shield bonus. Yea but with thew exception of the Crow which is typically used as a missile platform anyway.. The Caldari frigs have the ability to fit the tank in the mids + AB, Web & point.. As well as a damage mod in the low. Look at the Hawk fore example.. it can fit 4x rockets, neut, AB, MSE, web, scram then either a DCU or BCU + a speed mod in the lows. While it lacks the tank of a Veng, it's putting out more damage and has better ability to control range using a web & neut. It can also swap out the neut for a NOS and go active tanked. It's all rock paper scissors as with any other kind of ship. The point I'm getting at is the Amarr frigs could really use a 10% damage bonus to 1 damage type (EM) as they would then be more in-line with their racial damage type & would be on par with Caldai rocket frigs in the damage dept. It is rock paper scissors, but again, I don't see much tank as an option for caldari. Damage modules in the lows are not as mandatory as a web in the mid and calling 1 free mid slot an optional active tank is a little misleading. As frigates go, especialy t2 varieties, I see more merit in amarr ships generally speaking. That is not to say that caldari suck, but look more limited in scope. Assault frigates and faction frigates other than the dram don't have much of a defined role though, so there is plenty of room to argue.
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.09 10:51:00 - [23] Caldari can fit medium extenders if they wanted to for tank, boosting their EHP by a lot. Caldari can tank VERY well. They can also be a general-speedy-ganky frig as well if they wanted to.
Tsubutai The Tuskers	Posted - 2011.05.09 11:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Mutnin Can't fit everything on a ship plus a kitchen sink.. With a web instead of a TD the ship wouldn't last 10 seconds against a Rifter or just about any decent T1 frig. The malediction is much faster than any T1 frig other than the Vigil, so you should be able to comfortably dictate range/transversal with a web. Depending on your opponent's fit, either kite at 8 km and watch him wallow in deep falloff or orbit at 500 and outrun his tracking; your rockets will do full damage either way. While tackle inties aren't supposed to be dps monsters, the malediction is a pretty capable solo boat, at least for killing other frigates. Rocket ships need at least one web to deal significant dps against AB frigates, full stop.
Devil tiger	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:29:00 - [25] The thing with rockets is that they now have range similar to medium blasters, the dps of auto-cannons and they NEVER miss. So yeah the explosion velocity-fix did what it was supposed to, it fixed rockets from crap to good and beyond. By the way has anyone tested the BC-BS sized ships with rockets?
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.05.09 20:48:00 - [26] Edited by: Mutnin on 09/05/2011 20:49:45 Originally by: Tsubutai Originally by: Mutnin Can't fit everything on a ship plus a kitchen sink.. With a web instead of a TD the ship wouldn't last 10 seconds against a Rifter or just about any decent T1 frig. The malediction is much faster than any T1 frig other than the Vigil, so you should be able to comfortably dictate range/transversal with a web. Depending on your opponent's fit, either kite at 8 km and watch him wallow in deep falloff or orbit at 500 and outrun his tracking; your rockets will do full damage either way. While tackle inties aren't supposed to be dps monsters, the malediction is a pretty capable solo boat, at least for killing other frigates. Rocket ships need at least one web to deal significant dps against AB frigates, full stop. Yea I'll have to play around with the fit a bit because seems like it's a workable ceptor for brawling since the Rocket buff but I was trying to go with a un-expected fit and was very disappointed in it's DPS out-put. It worked better than expected as far as the TD and tanking with the low sig/sm repper which was mainly used for drone defense. It just wasn't practicable with the low damage I was getting. Using the bonus to a scram range, speed and fitting a web, might work decent trying to kite as suggested, I was just trying to go with a different approach as I like to experiment with non standardized fits. Yet back on subject of say the Veng.. I still think a 10% bonus to EM damage would be better for the Amarr ships because if your rocket damage depends on webs you can't very well fit a working active tank on the Veng either. The dual rep fit requires cap injection and there is no NOS to keep even a single rep fit going. Meaning soon as you meet a ship with Neuts it's over if you don't go straight up buffer. If getting a 10% bonus to 1 damage type it would allow you to then have enough damage even with out a web to make interesting fits than just the typical cookie cutters that always end up getting boring.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.05.09 21:00:00 - [27] Originally by: Devil tiger By the way has anyone tested the BC-BS sized ships with rockets? The only ship that I can see may have some utility for rockets is the Navy Cara. Beyond that, the bonuses the ships give don't seem to return any value over the heavier launchers.
Foralai Altrus	Posted - 2011.05.09 22:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Foralai Altrus on 09/05/2011 22:37:56 The 10% bonus to one damage type is offset by not having tactical flexibility. A Vengeance with it's 5% can swap ammo types dependent on target. So they can use EM to burn down a caldari ship, then swap to explosive if need be with no loss in DPS. But if they had a fixed bonus, they lose that flexibility. Take your chosen Hawk vs a Vengeance. Using my skills and as close to a match in fittings, the Hawk has a 20pt higher DPS than the Vengeance in EFT. But taking into armor resists and tank, the Veng will last longer and burn down the Hawk before it's even into hull. And if the Hawk tries shifting ammo it's DPS drops to the point that you'd be better off just self destructing and robbing the Veng of a kill mail. Edit: my main's skills.. damn board defaulted to a new char
Freyja Asynjur Folkvangr	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:21:00 - [29] Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: Devil tiger By the way has anyone tested the BC-BS sized ships with rockets? The only ship that I can see may have some utility for rockets is the Navy Cara. Beyond that, the bonuses the ships give don't seem to return any value over the heavier launchers. Actually, you can do a cyclone with a xl shield booster and rocket launchers to emulate a baby sleipnir/claymore and it works well.
Gibbo3771	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:41:00 - [30] Quote: If you read my post you would see that I'm not dissing "Rockets". I'm saying that the 10% to 1 damage type is far better than 5% across the board. Add that to the fact that Cakldari frigs have the mids needed to make Rockets work and maybe you can start to see what I'm talking about. I know you werent dissing rockets, you were having a go at the amarr rocket lineup when there is nothing wrong with them, I vengeance with 130dps tank for 2+ minutes with 8k ehp and 110-120dps makes it the toughest and most powerful frigate in the game when flown right. Rockets dont do a lot of dps on paper but due to the fact rockets hit for consistent damage, it out-damages frigate turrets no matter how much dps they do. Quote: Confirming killing a Slicer with no tank and -1k HP from other ship damage means Rockets are OP. The slicer was kiting me for most of the fight, I caught him when I was in around 20% armor. Meaning I had around 1.3k ehp left when he still has his full 2.7k. Im doing 70dps with rockets and with a med pulse laster it brings it to 100 or so. Rockets just sink things so fast it is actually pretty amazing, I think between amarr and caldari rocket ships, either are great with different outcomes and target choices but I would rather fly a veng over a hawk, despite the hawk gets more dps but is stuck to basically 1 damage type. Quote: The reason your Hookbill takes down Drams faster than a Max skilled Ranis is because the Hookbill is the best Dram killer in the game. Why is it the best Dram killer in the game? Because it has "5" mid slots and 3 lows with a 20% bonus per level to Kin rocket damage and 10% to all other damage types.. Going to agree here, it has the best slot layout on a frigate and makes for a pretty damn mean all round frigate killer. But getting a fight in something everyone knows is deadly is hard, thats where veng and hawk come in. Everyone shoots a hawk lol Overall what I meant to drive at, I do think rockets are overpowered. When it comes to frigate sized weapons they just **** in most circumstances, if your rocket ship can dictate range (duel web hawk) or can duel prop (hookbill) or has the staying power of a cruiser and tanks 70% of most af's dps (veng) its overpowered. Just my opinion. I look over my killboard now and realised that I killed a few drams and shiz with taranis as well lol, been flying rocket ships a lot I seem to forget I can fly else what :D

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