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Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:35:00 - [1] I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 ..... one ship just shouldnt be able to do that much. It's not just this time, we've seen a single falcon turn the tide every fight that they're included. And they're now in almost every fight for that reason. Aparantly the countermeasures dont work, either. A little math. With 2 ECCM's overloaded, and a full set of Low-grade grails, sensor strength is over 120. Permajammed. Yes, I know. They've already been nerfed. They aint as good as they were. But they're still overpowered. I know people will go against me for saying this, but they'll be the ones that wont undock without a falcon alt :D ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Herrring Amarr National Quality Breaker	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:40:00 - [2] Edited by: Herrring on 09/05/2011 23:39:47 damn that falcon pilot should go out and buy a lottery ticket right now.
Holy One	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:45:00 - [3] falcon - like the drake - is a good example of ccp game designers putting stuff in that would be awesome if everyone had 1 character and 1 account. since everyone has been heating their hangars with isk burners the last couple of years (since wh and sov 'improvements' funnily enough) this kind of ***gotry has become depressingly commonplace. BBQ makes me hungry for more...
John Wesley Hardin	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:47:00 - [4] Nobody likes Falcons unless you have one in Fleet, then everybody loves them. Get a Falcon Pilot, & enjoy.
Discrodia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:47:00 - [5] Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
mentalmilly	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Falcon alt spoted. And its 1 thing to unlabalnce a fight its another thing to just turn it into a turkey shoot where the other side can only watch themselves slowly die. Kind of curious as to what else you suggest that the guys above could have done to help get over this. If when you have so much eccm packed into your ship that you couldent scan them out from 3 feet away and still get perma jammed i would suggest thats a problem or at least the math is broken
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once. It's not exactly 'instant win', it just so happens tha tyour gang was extremely unlucky, or the falcon pilot knew exactly what ships you guys would bring and fitted jammers accordingly. Funnily enough I find that a single ECCM & sensor amp on a glass cannon maelstrom is enough to ruin the avg falcon's day. ...oh wait Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Super Chair Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:00:00 - [9] You know what counters falcon? Well theres falcon, and a 150km+ sniper cerb (or any sniper BS with similar range) that WILL force it off the field, but you'd have caldari cruiser V if you had a cerb, so you could just falcon.
Discrodia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:01:00 - [10] Edited by: Discrodia on 10/05/2011 00:03:52 Originally by: mentalmilly Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Falcon alt spoted. And its 1 thing to unlabalnce a fight its another thing to just turn it into a turkey shoot where the other side can only watch themselves slowly die. Kind of curious as to what else you suggest that the guys above could have done to help get over this. If when you have so much eccm packed into your ship that you couldent scan them out from 3 feet away and still get perma jammed i would suggest thats a problem or at least the math is broken I don't have an alt. I can fly mimy and gallente HACs, Hictors, and T3 ships, but not Caldari (never invested in that). If a falcon can seriously beat what you claim you have (which means you have no tackle, which seems unlikely) he is extremely focused to your racial scan strength. And unless they have enough ships to tackle all of your fleet, and if you're saying that one falcon locks your whole fleet down and you can't warp out because you are all tackled, then that's not a fight in your advantage. Edit: The fact is, the falcon doesn't need a hard counter. It can't kill you unless it has a fleet, and god forbid if it annoys you. And if it does have a fleet, then warp out or jump away. Be better prepared with a counter next time. Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once. It's not exactly 'instant win', it just so happens tha tyour gang was extremely unlucky, or the falcon pilot knew exactly what ships you guys would bring and fitted jammers accordingly. Funnily enough I find that a single ECCM & sensor amp on a glass cannon maelstrom is enough to ruin the avg falcon's day. we had 3 different races of ships that were permajammed, 2 specifically set up to defend against jamming. Even with racial jammers, that shouldnt have happened. It would be hard to have racial jams for all of us AND permajam us. And, like I said before. This isnt a one-off occourance. This has happened time and time again. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:08:00 - [12] Originally by: Discrodia Edited by: Discrodia on 10/05/2011 00:03:52 Originally by: mentalmilly Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Falcon alt spoted. And its 1 thing to unlabalnce a fight its another thing to just turn it into a turkey shoot where the other side can only watch themselves slowly die. Kind of curious as to what else you suggest that the guys above could have done to help get over this. If when you have so much eccm packed into your ship that you couldent scan them out from 3 feet away and still get perma jammed i would suggest thats a problem or at least the math is broken Be better prepared with a counter next time. So you dont consider a full set of implants and dual ECCM a counter? BTW, this was in lowsec on a gate. We're not talking 0.0 buggary. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Discrodia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:11:00 - [13] So if it was at a gate, jump away. Accept that you're beaten and leave. Don't try and fail to fight, then cry about it on the forum. Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
Super Chair Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:12:00 - [14] The more you post the more I think that your logi pilots failed to activate thier ECCM or fit for the wrong sensor strength :)
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Discrodia So if it was at a gate, jump away. Accept that you're beaten and leave. Don't try and fail to fight, then cry about it on the forum. The fight was fine, and I dont mind losing normally. It's just that this kind of thing is far too common. P.S. Please dont feed the trolls. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Super Chair The more you post the more I think that your logi pilots failed to activate thier ECCM or fit for the wrong sensor strength :) We were very careful with out setups, and we know how to use them. I was one of the logi's and I KNOW mine were on. I have total faith in the other logi pilot as well. He's better than I am. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:17:00 - [17] didn't it allready get nerfed hard a year ago? and everyone whined it got nerfed too much? I think a buff to the way ECCM works is in order not more nerfing to the falcon. maybe eccm should work in bursts of 45+skills seconds. Meaning it gives double the effect but for a limited time with a cooldown. then it would be a fight over timings. And you would know that you could lock and fire at least for a while. another idea I've had is the less targets you have locked the stronger your signal strength.
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:22:00 - [18] Originally by: MotherMoon didn't it allready get nerfed hard a year ago? and everyone whined it got nerfed too much? I think a buff to the way ECCM works is in order not more nerfing to the falcon. maybe eccm should work in bursts of 45+skills seconds. Meaning it gives double the effect but for a limited time with a cooldown. then it would be a fight over timings. And you would know that you could lock and fire at least for a while. another idea I've had is the less targets you have locked the stronger your signal strength. Interesting idea. As a previous poster pointed out the point of ewar is to unbalance fights, but your ideas would reduce it to a tactical level rather than an all-powerful safety blanket. ECCM, as I feel is proved, currently cannot stop a falcon. A boost to ECCM would quite probally go some ways to balancing it, as at least when you fit for anti ECM, it works. The reason I pointed out the falcon was that is the iconic ship for ECM, and by far the most used. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Discrodia 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once. It's not exactly 'instant win', it just so happens tha tyour gang was extremely unlucky, or the falcon pilot knew exactly what ships you guys would bring and fitted jammers accordingly. Funnily enough I find that a single ECCM & sensor amp on a glass cannon maelstrom is enough to ruin the avg falcon's day. we had 3 different races of ships that were permajammed, 2 specifically set up to defend against jamming. Even with racial jammers, that shouldnt have happened. It would be hard to have racial jams for all of us AND permajam us. And, like I said before. This isnt a one-off occourance. This has happened time and time again. Then you are simply the most unlucky corp in all of EVE I've had multiple engagements with falcons, and had no problems forcing them off the field. A single ECCM on a minnie BS is enough to stop them permajamming me, the question is what are you doing wrong that you are getting permajammed in ships of 120+ SS? ...oh wait Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Nemu Endoras we had 3 different races of ships that were permajammed, 2 specifically set up to defend against jamming. Even with racial jammers, that shouldnt have happened. It would be hard to have racial jams for all of us AND permajam us. And, like I said before. This isnt a one-off occourance. This has happened time and time again. Then you are simply the most unlucky corp in all of EVE I've had multiple engagements with falcons, and had no problems forcing them off the field. A single ECCM on a minnie BS is enough to stop them permajamming me, the question is what are you doing wrong that you are getting permajammed in ships of 120+ SS? Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once. It's not exactly 'instant win', it just so happens tha tyour gang was extremely unlucky, or the falcon pilot knew exactly what ships you guys would bring and fitted jammers accordingly. Funnily enough I find that a single ECCM & sensor amp on a glass cannon maelstrom is enough to ruin the avg falcon's day. we had 3 different races of ships that were permajammed, 2 specifically set up to defend against jamming. Even with racial jammers, that shouldnt have happened. It would be hard to have racial jams for all of us AND permajam us. And, like I said before. This isnt a one-off occourance. This has happened time and time again. Then you are simply the most unlucky corp in all of EVE I've had multiple engagements with falcons, and had no problems forcing them off the field. A single ECCM on a minnie BS is enough to stop them permajamming me, the question is what are you doing wrong that you are getting permajammed in ships of 120+ SS? If I remember rightly, last time I was in a Mael with 1 ECCM, vs a falcon I didnt lock the entire time. Neither did most of the gang. Yes, I had the right ECCM on. That was a roam, so no time to switch out jammers either. Please, tell me what I was doing wrong to counter. I'm eager to learn. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Desya Dak'ann Caldari Incertae Sedis Atlas.	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once. You sound to be quite an inexperienced pvper. You made a series of drastic errors, 1. you did not kill the falcon as soon as it appeared on grid. Whenever, I have FC'd an op, the order of **** to die first goes as follows, ECM, Logi, Bubblers > Else that is it, if you fail to keep order with you fleet you will fail. After the Falcon had jammed your guardians, a BS and a T3, had you not realised, that it was wrecking havoc across your fleet? Which brings me to my second point, why on earth had you not had your own ECM? Even if its a blackbird, ECM is chanced based, if you can jam their falcon before they jam yours, your in luck. My third and final point is based upon your fleet composition, why do you have T3s and BS's rolling around in the same gang? Unless your T3 was a fleet booster, then of course its understandable, but then it being jammed would make no difference.... being jammed doesn't make any difference to your fleet bonus's
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Nemu Endoras Edited by: Nemu Endoras on 10/05/2011 00:37:56 Originally by: Then you are simply the most unlucky corp in all of EVE I've had multiple engagements with falcons, and had no problems forcing them off the field. A single ECCM on a minnie BS is enough to stop them permajamming me, the question is what are you doing wrong that you are getting permajammed in ships of 120+ SS? If I remember rightly, last time I was in a Mael with 1 ECCM, vs a falcon I didnt lock the entire time. Neither did most of the gang. Yes, I had the right ECCM on. That was a roam, so no time to switch out jammers either. Please, tell me what I was doing wrong to counter. I'm eager to learn. I don't know man. ECM is all based on chance, some people are lucky, some people aren't... Generally with falcons your entire gang would primary it with at least drones, then anything that has the range to hit it should atack the falcon while the rest of your fleet moves on to other targets. It's unlikely you'll kill the damn thing, but at the very least you'll have forced it off field after a jam cycle or so. ...oh wait Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Desya Dak'ann Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once. You sound to be quite an inexperienced pvper. You made a series of drastic errors, 1. you did not kill the falcon as soon as it appeared on grid. Whenever, I have FC'd an op, the order of **** to die first goes as follows, ECM, Logi, Bubblers > Else that is it, if you fail to keep order with you fleet you will fail. After the Falcon had jammed your guardians, a BS and a T3, had you not realised, that it was wrecking havoc across your fleet? Which brings me to my second point, why on earth had you not had your own ECM? Even if its a blackbird, ECM is chanced based, if you can jam their falcon before they jam yours, your in luck. My third and final point is based upon your fleet composition, why do you have T3s and BS's rolling around in the same gang? Unless your T3 was a fleet booster, then of course its understandable, but then it being jammed would make no difference.... being jammed doesn't make any difference to your fleet bonus's Firstly, no falcon pilot worth there salt decloaks at the start of a fight. They wait until primary's have been called, and for your information. They cloak. It's VERY rare that they're in range. To your second point, there should be no ship that is only counterable by itself, or a blob. I hesitate to use that word, but I will assume you understand what I'm referring to. You need either 1 falcon of your own, or 6+ ships to counter. As for why we didnt bring one? We find them distasteful to use a broken mechanic. As for your query on fleet composition, I lack your point. This is not 0.0 warfare, but our ships were celected for a reason. The T3 was mainly for tackle, with good dps, and the BS's were dps as well. I fail to see your point about fleet composition. Nothing was poorly fit, and we are experienced in small gang warfare. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Alice Pink	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:50:00 - [24] Edited by: Alice Pink on 10/05/2011 00:55:47 I call utter bull**** on the OP. The absolute maximum jam strength you can get nowadays is 16. If your logi pilots had 120 signal strength, it means the falcon had a ~5% chance of jamming one and an incredible ~.25% or roughly 1/400 chance of jamming both. Let's not even diminish that probability with jamming both a T3 AND BS also, because I'm going to pretend for a moment that you had the horrendous luck of the falcon getting a cycle off. So the enemy's gang was able to kill 2 logis and an armor tanked T3 and BS in 20-40 seconds? Sounds like the falcon wasn't really important one way or the other. EDIT: And please STFU about there being no counter. -Gallente bonused drones. -Damps. -1000 scan res Arty BS. -A griffin with caldari jams (will lock faster) -You not sucking. -You not sucking. -You not sucking. I added the last three points, because you suck.
Jack Tronic	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:55:00 - [25] Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 00:55:24 Originally by: Alice Pink I call utter bull**** on the OP. The absolute maximum jam strength you can get nowadays is 16. If your logi pilots had 120 signal strength, it means the falcon had a ~5% chance of jamming one and an incredible ~.25% or roughly 1/400 chance of jamming both. Let's not even diminish that probability with jamming both a T3 AND BS also, because I'm going to pretend for a moment that you had the horrendous luck of the falcon getting a cycle off. So the enemy's gang was able to kill 2 logis and an armor tanked T3 and BS in 20-40 seconds? Sounds like the falcon wasn't really important one way or the other. This. I bet the logis had the wrong ECCM mod. /thread
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Alice Pink I call utter bull**** on the OP. The absolute maximum jam strength you can get nowadays is 16. If your logi pilots had 120 signal strength, it means the falcon had a ~5% chance of jamming one and an incredible ~.25% or roughly 1/400 chance of jamming both. Let's not even diminish that probability with jamming both a T3 AND BS also, because I'm going to pretend for a moment that you had the horrendous luck of the falcon getting a cycle off. So the enemy's gang was able to kill 2 logis and an armor tanked T3 and BS in 20-40 seconds? Sounds like the falcon wasn't really important one way or the other. Well, I'm not nearly smart enough to work out the precice percentage chance of jams on paper, but I know what happened. as for the speed of the kill? Until the falcon decloaked, we were tanking the opposing fleet just fine. As soon as falcons appear on overview everyone notifies logistics, and we always have our ECCM's on, and overloaded when a falcon is on field. IF your math is correct, then I would call for a broken mechanic. If your math is incorrect, please come back with the correct figues. But either way, i know what happened. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Nemu Endoras [...] there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did[...] Try not having each and every one of your gang walking under ladders, running over black cats, breaking mirrors and taunting Murphy. Because no other way would that Falcon pilot get so incredibly lucky. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Jack Tronic Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 00:55:24 Originally by: Alice Pink I call utter bull** on the OP. The absolute maximum jam strength you can get nowadays is 16. If your logi pilots had 120 signal strength, it means the falcon had a ~5% chance of jamming one and an incredible ~.25% or roughly 1/400 chance of jamming both. Let's not even diminish that probability with jamming both a T3 AND BS also, because I'm going to pretend for a moment that you had the horrendous luck of the falcon getting a cycle off. So the enemy's gang was able to kill 2 logis and an armor tanked T3 and BS in 20-40 seconds? Sounds like the falcon wasn't really important one way or the other. This. I bet the logis had the wrong ECCM mod. /thread I assume I can call alt on this one? We sure arent ****ed enough to have the wrong ECCM ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Alice Pink	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Nemu Endoras Well, I'm not nearly smart enough to work out the precice percentage chance of jams on paper, but I know what happened. as for the speed of the kill? Until the falcon decloaked, we were tanking the opposing fleet just fine. As soon as falcons appear on overview everyone notifies logistics, and we always have our ECCM's on, and overloaded when a falcon is on field. IF your math is correct, then I would call for a broken mechanic. If your math is incorrect, please come back with the correct figues. But either way, i know what happened. ^^Look for the bold. I see, thank you for finally slipping up and letting the truth out. So you had a few BSes, a T3 and two logis in lowsec. The enemy scouted you and brought about even numbers. After baiting, they decloaked numerous EWAR ships. Welcome to EVE, you whining NOOB.
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Nemu Endoras [...] there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did[...] Try not having each and every one of your gang walking under ladders, running over black cats, breaking mirrors and taunting Murphy. Because no other way would that Falcon pilot get so incredibly lucky. It's that very reason I made this thread. I feel it cant be just "bad luck" when this happens quite often. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:03:00 - [31] Originally by: Nemu Endoras It's that very reason I made this thread. I feel it cant be just "bad luck" when this happens quite often. Petition for broken RNG ? _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:04:00 - [32] Originally by: Alice Pink Originally by: Nemu Endoras Well, I'm not nearly smart enough to work out the precice percentage chance of jams on paper, but I know what happened. as for the speed of the kill? Until the falcon decloaked, we were tanking the opposing fleet just fine. As soon as falcons appear on overview everyone notifies logistics, and we always have our ECCM's on, and overloaded when a falcon is on field. IF your math is correct, then I would call for a broken mechanic. If your math is incorrect, please come back with the correct figues. But either way, i know what happened. ^^Look for the bold. I see, thank you for finally slipping up and letting the truth out. So you had a few BSes, a T3 and two logis in lowsec. The enemy scouted you and brought about even numbers. After baiting, they decloaked numerous EWAR ships. Welcome to EVE, you whining NOOB. No, I'm afraid ther was only one. I was simply describing how we normally operate. Please, trolling is a cureable disease. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Alice Pink	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:09:00 - [33] Edited by: Alice Pink on 10/05/2011 01:11:29 What I'm trying to show you is that this is a dumb thread. Just post where the battle occurred and who the corps were -- then we can go look up the kill reports on evekill or BC and you'll get constructive advice on how to beat the enemy next time. Please do this. PS. Your argument is not going to get any traction, because the truth is that EWAR is balanced enough at this point that even in a forced low-numbers pvp setting (see the alliance tournament) it is quite easy to crush ECM teams. PPS. If you're embarrassed to allow us to actually look at this fight because the logis didn't have 2 ECCM modules fitted, don't be. 2 ECCM modules is actually pretty dumb. Even in fleets which regularly face 20+ scorpions on the opposing side, my alliance would never do that.
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:10:00 - [34] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Nemu Endoras It's that very reason I made this thread. I feel it cant be just "bad luck" when this happens quite often. Petition for broken RNG ? As I dont visit the forums, or petition much, I have no idea what an RNG is :) But if I can find an appropriate section I might just file a petition. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Nuniki Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:18:00 - [35] rooks are cooler. and can hurt stuff that gets close. not that you should be sticking around for stuff to get close.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Nemu Endoras It's that very reason I made this thread. I feel it cant be just "bad luck" when this happens quite often. Petition for broken RNG ? As I dont visit the forums, or petition much, I have no idea what an RNG is :) But if I can find an appropriate section I might just file a petition. Broken Random Number Generator ;) ...oh wait Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Bertrem RRX	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:25:00 - [37] Originally by: Nemu Endoras 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 ..... one ship just shouldnt be able to do that much. It's not just this time, we've seen a single falcon turn the tide every fight that they're included. And they're now in almost every fight for that reason. Aparantly the countermeasures dont work, either. Lets look at this statement in detail. 4 Targets - 2 logistic ships a BS and a T3 perma-jammed. Possible, but not with multi-racials. Jamming a logistics seems to be counter-productive but besides that - u gotta do your homework b4 posting... The Logistics has a sensor strength of 37, the BS (if Marauder) 20 and the t3, 29. All are easily jammed and the ships have to lock the Falcon to use ECCM - to which I suppose, the Falcon got in before it. It is all chance based and the falcon just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right ships to jam and the right modules installed. Take a photo, that doesn't happen that often!!!
Patty Patrick Patterson	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:28:00 - [38] Originally by: Herrring damn that falcon pilot should go out and buy a lottery ticket right now. My thoughts exactly.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:28:00 - [39] Edited by: Akita T on 10/05/2011 01:31:06 Originally by: Bertrem RRX the ships have to lock the Falcon to use ECCM I don't think you understand what an ECCM module does. Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Nemu Endoras It's that very reason I made this thread. I feel it cant be just "bad luck" when this happens quite often. Petition for broken RNG ? As I dont visit the forums, or petition much, I have no idea what an RNG is :) But if I can find an appropriate section I might just file a petition. RNG = Random Number Generator. You would not be the first to claim that the EVE RNG is acting a little bit wonky at times. You may or may not be right, I do not know. I've been quite circumspect myself more than once, but never had sufficient proof of obvious weirdness, it was always within the realm of "not unlikely". However, Falcons constantly managing to break a lot of locks against very high sensor strength targets, IF THIS IS AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF WHAT USUALLY HAPPENS TO YOU, now that would be a pretty obvious proof of something fishy. It might be the RNG itself, or it might be a RNG-related bug the enemy is either luckily triggering or actually exploiting, or it could just be that (not to discount any possibilities) your perception of what really happened is not quite accurate. Next time you guys go hunting, try to have your pilots run logserver and pool the reports together if something like this happens again, and send them to CCP attached to the petition. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:31:00 - [40] Originally by: Bertrem RRX Originally by: Nemu Endoras 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 ..... one ship just shouldnt be able to do that much. It's not just this time, we've seen a single falcon turn the tide every fight that they're included. And they're now in almost every fight for that reason. Aparantly the countermeasures dont work, either. Lets look at this statement in detail. 4 Targets - 2 logistic ships a BS and a T3 perma-jammed. Possible, but not with multi-racials. Jamming a logistics seems to be counter-productive but besides that - u gotta do your homework b4 posting... The Logistics has a sensor strength of 37, the BS (if Marauder) 20 and the t3, 29. All are easily jammed and the ships have to lock the Falcon to use ECCM - to which I suppose, the Falcon got in before it. It is all chance based and the falcon just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right ships to jam and the right modules installed. Take a photo, that doesn't happen that often!!! Wow You do not have anything even close to something resembling a clue Please don't post if you've never actually PvP'd before... ...oh wait Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
mentalmilly	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:34:00 - [41] Originally by: Bertrem RRX Originally by: Nemu Endoras 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 ..... one ship just shouldnt be able to do that much. It's not just this time, we've seen a single falcon turn the tide every fight that they're included. And they're now in almost every fight for that reason. Aparantly the countermeasures dont work, either. Lets look at this statement in detail. 4 Targets - 2 logistic ships a BS and a T3 perma-jammed. Possible, but not with multi-racials. Jamming a logistics seems to be counter-productive but besides that - u gotta do your homework b4 posting... The Logistics has a sensor strength of 37, the BS (if Marauder) 20 and the t3, 29. All are easily jammed and the ships have to lock the Falcon to use ECCM - to which I suppose, the Falcon got in before it. It is all chance based and the falcon just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right ships to jam and the right modules installed. Take a photo, that doesn't happen that often!!! While you are correct you are dismissing the racial eccm (multiple or no not sure?) over heated + a full set of eccm implants on at least one of the logistics if not both? sure that should have had some sort of effect on the jamming of at least the logistics. I have no clue what if the remaining ships had eccm or not so your numbers are good with those. I have no clue how the implants work or the end result is worked out so im guessing a lot here. But it sounds like he is complaing the counters built into the game dont seem to work to great. (or possibly broken when you go over kill???? remember the tracking disruptor wormhole thing a few months back) P.S. eccm is not a targeted mod it affects your signal strength to make it harder for you to be jamed
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:38:00 - [42] Originally by: Bertrem RRX Originally by: Nemu Endoras 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 ..... one ship just shouldnt be able to do that much. It's not just this time, we've seen a single falcon turn the tide every fight that they're included. And they're now in almost every fight for that reason. Aparantly the countermeasures dont work, either. Lets look at this statement in detail. 4 Targets - 2 logistic ships a BS and a T3 perma-jammed. Possible, but not with multi-racials. Jamming a logistics seems to be counter-productive but besides that - u gotta do your homework b4 posting... The Logistics has a sensor strength of 37, the BS (if Marauder) 20 and the t3, 29. All are easily jammed and the ships have to lock the Falcon to use ECCM - to which I suppose, the Falcon got in before it. It is all chance based and the falcon just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right ships to jam and the right modules installed. Take a photo, that doesn't happen that often!!! Oh thank you for giving me this comical post to dissasemble. Jamming a logistics is counter productive? I'm not quite sure what game your playing. The Logistics as I've pointed out were heavily fitted with ECCM, which is NOT a targetted module. It simply raises your sensor strength. The BS was a Typhoon with it's own ECCM. The T3 did not have room for an ECCM, I admit. However, one ECM was dedicated to it, and the rest locked down 3 ships in our fleet. As someone has done the math already, it should be near impossible to jam that many ships. This is why it seems suspicious to me. For the record, I dont want to NERF ecm, I want to FIX ecm. It seems you cant roam in lowsec without meeting one, and countermeasures are ineffective. Good fixes have already been offered in the thread. P.S. I posted under an alt character, but when my CEO logs on if he says I can post them, I will post the battle report. It doesnt look like much, as both logi's got out of system. One died after, but that doesnt show on the report. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Nemu Endoras	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:49:00 - [43] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 10/05/2011 01:31:06 Originally by: Bertrem RRX the ships have to lock the Falcon to use ECCM I don't think you understand what an ECCM module does. Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Nemu Endoras It's that very reason I made this thread. I feel it cant be just "bad luck" when this happens quite often. Petition for broken RNG ? As I dont visit the forums, or petition much, I have no idea what an RNG is :) But if I can find an appropriate section I might just file a petition. RNG = Random Number Generator. You would not be the first to claim that the EVE RNG is acting a little bit wonky at times. You may or may not be right, I do not know. I've been quite circumspect myself more than once, but never had sufficient proof of obvious weirdness, it was always within the realm of "not unlikely". However, Falcons constantly managing to break a lot of locks against very high sensor strength targets, IF THIS IS AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF WHAT USUALLY HAPPENS TO YOU, now that would be a pretty obvious proof of something fishy. It might be the RNG itself, or it might be a RNG-related bug the enemy is either luckily triggering or actually exploiting, or it could just be that (not to discount any possibilities) your perception of what really happened is not quite accurate. Next time you guys go hunting, try to have your pilots run logserver and pool the reports together if something like this happens again, and send them to CCP attached to the petition. The report is as accurate as I can make it. I am glad to hear a sensible voice among the crowd, offering possibilities instead of accusations. I have witnessed Falcons getting "lucky" jams almost all the time, but as it's chanced based every person was just "unlucky". I will try this logserver, and attempt to find another fight with a falcon. I'm sure it wont be too hard. As stated, I wish to fix, not nerf. ====================== I'm and alt of an alt's alt, with dreams of one day having my own alt. -Bio-theft
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2011.05.10 02:08:00 - [44] Edited by: Doddy on 10/05/2011 02:11:31 Originally by: Nemu Endoras ECCM, as I feel is proved, currently cannot stop a falcon. A boost to ECCM would quite probally go some ways to balancing it, as at least when you fit for anti ECM, it works. No, you are either lieing through your teeth (likely), a troll (also likely) or a statistical anomoly (unlikely). Last fight i was in with my falcon i got 2 jams off on (single eccm)logis in whole fight, they have been nerfed pretty hard already. Or is it just that the implants are still broken and wipe out the effect of the eccm? Remember that bug from a while ago.
Ludacrys	Posted - 2011.05.10 02:14:00 - [45] Falcon alts completely destroy small gang pvp, Ask any real pvper (not blob drones) and unless they have their own falcon alt they will say this would be a much better game without them. CCP needs to: -Get rid of permajamming or -Change the way jamming works (ie: when jam is over you dont need to relock) or -Dramatically boost ECCM, introduce sensor strength skills, etc To people saying "dur hur bring falcon counters", well ** off, seriously, i like small gangs and bringing a counter to a specific ship that might show up is ****ed
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.10 02:30:00 - [46] Edited by: Akita T on 10/05/2011 02:30:03 To be honest, I personally dislike any chance-based mechanics automatically. I dislike the chance-based damage output of turrets. I dislike the dice roll nature of ECM jamming. I dislike the "chance to fail" for invention. I dislike the fact loot and salvage is random. I dislike that officer and faction rats show up wherever they damn well please. And so on and so forth. Each and every one of those COULD be reworked to involve very little or even absolutely no randomness whatsoever. For instance: * damage of turrets could be made to depend much more on maneouvering and positioning and not at all on chance * ECM could reduce sensor resolution based on sensor strength and trigger an auto-relock of currently locked targets at decreased base lock time (so, essentially, instead of a chance to jam, you get X seconds jammed and cycletime-X seconds not jammed, depending on ECM stats, sensor strength and sensor resolution) * invention could have 100% chance to result in something, but number of runs or ME/PE levels could be influenced by skills too (and decryptors would get higher effects on those things to compensate) * loot and salvage tables could be far less random or even fixed for every NPC entity, combined maybe with a reduction in ISK bounty to compensate for increased loot value, and the loot would make sense for the ship in question (so, basically, have NPC ships behave pretty much like player ships as far as loot drops go) * all "important" rats (or even all rats) should have a logical itinerary, which can be "detected" by players though in-game means ; say, you could get a locator agent to tell you where any officer is (as if you were looking for a player pod pilot, not a NPC pod pilot), and it should keep moving between systems ; other agents could sell you information about commander/faction spawns, and so on and so forth ...but that's a completely different story. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.05.10 02:33:00 - [47] Edited by: Kogh Ayon on 10/05/2011 02:36:41 Originally by: Ludacrys Falcon alts completely destroy small gang pvp, Ask any real pvper (not blob drones) and unless they have their own falcon alt they will say this would be a much better game without them. CCP needs to: -Get rid of permajamming or -Change the way jamming works (ie: when jam is over you dont need to relock) or -Dramatically boost ECCM, introduce sensor strength skills, etc To people saying "dur hur bring falcon counters", well ** off, seriously, i like small gangs and bringing a counter to a specific ship that might show up is ****ed This. Rapier slows one ship, Arazu tarckles one ship, Curse neuts one ship, then Falcon jams 5 BCs/HACs at the same time. BTW the ECCM projector is just a joke. When the ship with projector get jamed then no ship get the ECCM bonus.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.10 02:38:00 - [48] Edited by: Akita T on 10/05/2011 02:39:57 OR, you could have jamming that's not completely random, but instead artificially converges to the average much sooner than true randomness would. So, for instance, if you have a 20% jam chance, the FIRST cycle would have a 20% jam chance, but the second cycle's jam chance would be different -- higher than 20% if the first cycle failed and lower than 20% if the first cycle succeeded -- and eventually, with repeated fails you would get to a point where jam chance goes up to 100% in that cycle OR with repeated successes go down to 0% in that cycle. Basically, guarantee that in an average length fight, a 20% jam chance actually gets you jammed almost exactly 20% of the time, as opposed to much more or much less often at random. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Waaaaaagggh	Posted - 2011.05.10 03:00:00 - [49] take a standard falcon fit. then fit it with a standard roaming fit of 1 racial jammer each and 1 multispecs. now go calculate the jam chance based on max all lvl 5 skills. if your logi's have even 1 eccm module, the chance of them getting jammed is something like 20-40% max. go do some math before you whine about the fight. altho i do agree. everyone has falcon alts. solo pvp is not happy with that.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2011.05.10 03:06:00 - [50] Originally by: Kogh Ayon This. Rapier slows one ship, Arazu tarckles one ship, Curse neuts one ship, then Falcon jams 5 BCs/HACs at the same time. BTW the ECCM projector is just a joke. When the ship with projector get jamed then no ship get the ECCM bonus. So why can a falcon engage 5 targets but other recons not? You waved some sort of magic wand?
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.05.10 03:13:00 - [51] it is possible for a falcon to have five times the jam neccesary on a single target and miss jamming. it is possible for an unbonused ship to jam out a hostile iwth the wrong race of jammer. jamming is chance based. that's the reason why someone said that the falcon pilot needed to go out and buy a lottery ticket. if his luck was that supremly awesome, then he had to have been a leprechaun in ireland on St. Patrick's day wearing green with a quadruple rainbow in the shape of a four leafed clover over his house filled with pots of gold which had a lawn filled with four leaf clovers. the mechnic is luck based. next time weight your dice and you'll be fine. Originally by: CCP Shadow The trolls have been vanquished.
Rens Cheque	Posted - 2011.05.10 03:18:00 - [52] Hilarious thread.
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.05.10 05:57:00 - [53] Originally by: John Wesley Hardin Nobody likes Falcons unless you have one in Fleet, then everybody loves them. Get a Falcon Pilot, & enjoy. Caldari, In ur AHAC fleet, ****ing up enemy drakes. I can't heal stupid
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.05.10 06:13:00 - [54] Eve's Random Number Generator is pretty predictable... the high value loot will always be destroyed Originally by: Jada Maroo Many legitimate news stories over the past few years would not have been brought to the forefront if not for Fox News.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.10 06:31:00 - [55] Edited by: JC Anderson on 10/05/2011 06:34:48 I fly a Falcon when not in my Curse. I have Recon Ships 5. I still fail with the jams sometimes, and that's while using racial specific jammers. Likewise, when my jam's fail, I have few options due to the fact that the ship can't take much abuse before popping. Often, this means I'm warping out or blowing up while waiting for my jammers to cycle. If however, the ECCM isn't working as it should, then it needs to be looked at and fixed. With my usual fit, my optimal on my jams is in the 70-80km range. A well fit long range sniper, or even a heavy missile boat can toast me before they are even in my ecm range. This is due to the nerf awhile back that prevented perma jams at ranges that were far greater than most long range sniper fits. And I admit it was a needed nerf.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.05.10 06:41:00 - [56] Originally by: Nemu Endoras 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 Let me get this straight: 1 Falcon was permajamming 2 guardians, an undisclosed BS and an undisclosed T3? What stroke of luck had this Falcon pilot equip his ship with all Radar jammers, and be at exactly the right range that the Legion and Armageddon couldn't touch it? Did noone have drones? A Falcon with SDAs and more than four jammers fitted is going to be paper thin - surely your drones would have ripped it to pieces in a matter of seconds? Do you have screen shots of the encounter? Can you get the Falcon pilot to comment on this thread? I'm suspecting that you only got jammed at an essential point in the encounter, and that rather than being permajammed you were merely jammed every 40 seconds or so, which should have been long enough to lock on to your target and cycle the remote repper at least once - and enough time to target the Falcon and unleash your drones upon it. This story smells bad. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
IQ 001	Posted - 2011.05.10 06:41:00 - [57] Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 ..... one ship just shouldnt be able to do that much. It's not just this time, we've seen a single falcon turn the tide every fight that they're included. And they're now in almost every fight for that reason. Aparantly the countermeasures dont work, either. A little math. With 2 ECCM's overloaded, and a full set of Low-grade grails, sensor strength is over 120. Permajammed. Yes, I know. They've already been nerfed. They aint as good as they were. But they're still overpowered. I know people will go against me for saying this, but they'll be the ones that wont undock without a falcon alt :D \ u know u have to activate those counter measures right? thaey aint passive...i found this out after .... 18 months?
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:14:00 - [58] Originally by: Akita T RNG = Random Number Generator. You would not be the first to claim that the EVE RNG is acting a little bit wonky at times. I believe the RNG is working as intended to make you either very lucky/unlucky. Can't speak of a falcon but using ECM drones it always seems one day, in sparring, my target can't keep a lock and the next day the same target never loses lock. It's all purely random of course. I just wish the RNG were a little more random during the same day.
Silas Cooper	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:23:00 - [59] Originally by: Mr Kidd Originally by: Akita T RNG = Random Number Generator. You would not be the first to claim that the EVE RNG is acting a little bit wonky at times. I believe the RNG is working as intended to make you either very lucky/unlucky. Can't speak of a falcon but using ECM drones it always seems one day, in sparring, my target can't keep a lock and the next day the same target never loses lock. It's all purely random of course. I just wish the RNG were a little more random during the same day. I don't think you understand what random means :) Back to OP, first of all you weren't permajammed as that would imply the jammer having more points than your sensor str per module. Apart from that with the fittings you stated you had it's nigh impossible to have happened as it did. As others stated; link the fight on killboard, then we can have a proper discussion with facts rather than hearsay.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Silas Cooper I don't think you understand what random means :) I don't think you understand what sarcasm means :)
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:46:00 - [61] Originally by: Nemu Endoras 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 ..... one ship just shouldnt be able to do that much. It didn't (I'm assuming that the fight lasted for more than 20 seconds here). Just FYI, despite the apparently widespread myth, "permajammed" does not really mean "I got jammed once and it was really annoying". It's just that people use the word when "I got jammed once and it was really annoying" is what they actually meant. Even assuming that the Falcon pilot was extremely lucky (or had very good intel) and was therefore able to fit exactly the right racial jammers to match those 5 ships, no way in hell did he keep them all "permajammed". If in fact it did happen, it was a once-in-a-lifetime lucky event, which should be set against those times (and I speak as a long-time Falcon pilot here and they do happen) when he barely got a single jam in the whole fight. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
mentalmilly	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:46:00 - [62] Originally by: Nemu Endoras P.S. I posted under an alt character, but when my CEO logs on if he says I can post them, I will post the battle report. It doesnt look like much, as both logi's got out of system. One died after, but that doesnt show on the report. Originally by: Silas Cooper Back to OP, first of all you weren't permajammed as that would imply the jammer having more points than your sensor str per module. Apart from that with the fittings you stated you had it's nigh impossible to have happened as it did. As others stated; link the fight on killboard, then we can have a proper discussion with facts rather than hearsay. I love how people read only the parts of the post they try to discredit. and the whole "this never happend I wasnt there so I know for a fact it didnt happen" LOL. So even if he did link the battle report he said Originally by: Nemu Endoras It doesnt look like much, as both logi's got out of system. One died after, but that doesnt show on the report. so would give an incomplete picture and show nothing of the thing hes complaining about. On an interesting side note i alwasy enjoy watching how people respond on these threads. they fall into very distinct groups.(not counting the trolls) I USE **** and as it works for me nothing is worng leave it its obviously you that sucks. I USE ** and it seems a little over powerd perhaps something dose need tweaked someplace perhaps not <----- my fave group incidently they are at least open to grown up discussions. I DONT USE **** and its destroying the game burn it burn it with fire. now the problem with a random number generator is as dilbert once put it "how do you truly know its random" and maby he didnt turn on his modules and over heat as he sugests. perhaps he did put the wrong ones on both very plausable. But the implants if this senario is what actualy happend dose that mean that the implants are truly worthless/broken? in ether case
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:50:00 - [63] The chance that it is true what the OP wrote is negligble. You said you had two ships with both over 120 sensor strength, then you can easily calculate the chance a single falcon permajams those two and a BS and a t3. The chance is so small that it is reasonable to say you are talking BS. Then on the other side we got the people here telling how to counter a falcon, minus those advicing to bring more falcons of your own most advices are truly horrible and do not work in practise (stick drones on them? Somehow I doubt a falcon hangs arround drone control range, not to mention one tactical warp fixes that). But while I consider the OPs story to be BS, I do agree that ECM mechanics need to be completely revamped. You can do pretty much nothing when you are jammed, they make especially hurt people fighting outnumbered, and they are chance based. Being chance based then is one (pretty bad) thing. However rolling a dice if you are going to have to look at a timer counting down 20 seconds is absolutely a horrible mechanic.
Millie Clode Amarr Insert Cool Name Here	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:52:00 - [64] As soon as the falcon decloaked, you should all have attempted to lock him up and set drones on him before he could deploy jams. He may get there first, or he may have smarties to clear hostile drones but you could at least try. Additionally, if you had that array of ECCM and implants, he WOULD have missed a cycle eventually, at that point he's either dead or running for the exit. The FC has to make the call of waiting for a missed cycle or deaggroing and jumping. Also, I recently heard this whine in reverse from a couple of falcon pilots who found their max skilled jams couldn't disrupt an enemy's guardian chain effectively due to piles of ECCM...ECM is basically all about the RNG, sometimes you luck out, sometimes you don't. ---------- Who, me?
Ludacrys	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:58:00 - [65] Originally by: Millie Clode As soon as the falcon decloaked, you should all have attempted to lock him up and set drones on him before he could deploy jams. Do you even play this game? Falcons decloak at 80km usually and thats beyond even the targeting range of most cruiser and battlecruiser hulls, not to mention you cannot put drones on something that is beyond 45km on a regular ship
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:03:00 - [66] Edited by: Tippia on 10/05/2011 12:04:10 Originally by: Ludacrys Do you even play this game? Falcons decloak at 80km usually and thats beyond even the targeting range of most cruiser and battlecruiser hulls, not to mention you cannot put drones on something that is beyond 45km on a regular ship Sure you can. Train your drone skills (60km range), add a Drone Link (20km)à bam! 80km control rangeà àor just use an Ishtar. Or, hell, a Cerb. Oh waità are you saying you don't know that you can get 60km drone control range from skills alone? "Do you even play this game?" right back at youà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ludacrys	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:10:00 - [67] Originally by: Tippia a Cerb. stopped reading right there
DarkAegix	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:17:00 - [68] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 10/05/2011 12:04:10 Originally by: Ludacrys Do you even play this game? Falcons decloak at 80km usually and thats beyond even the targeting range of most cruiser and battlecruiser hulls, not to mention you cannot put drones on something that is beyond 45km on a regular ship Sure you can. Train your drone skills (60km range), add a Drone Link (20km)à bam! 80km control rangeà àor just use an Ishtar. Or, hell, a Cerb. Oh waità are you saying you don't know that you can get 60km drone control range from skills alone? "Do you even play this game?" right back at youà Confirming that only counter to Falcons is to have all range-affecting drone skills at V, waste a high slot with a 50 CPU module and fit a sensor booster with a script which you do not benefit from because your weapons can't hit out that far and then wait and wait for your drones to reach the Falcon, which will still manage to jam everyone for 20 seconds, warp out, and warp back in if the drones even manage to pester it enough. Also confirming that Falcons never fit smartbombs. Oh, wait.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:17:00 - [69] Edited by: Tippia on 10/05/2011 12:18:19 Originally by: Ludacrys Originally by: Tippia a Cerb. stopped reading right there That explains why you're having trouble with Falconsà Originally by: DarkAegix Confirming that only counter to Falcons isà Isn't it kind of silly to "confirm" something that was never said? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:25:00 - [70] Edited by: JC Anderson on 10/05/2011 12:27:40 Originally by: DarkAegix Confirming that only counter to Falcons is to have all range-affecting drone skills at V. And how long did the falcon pilot have to train through the pre-req's? Let alone recon ships 5 to allow for a decent ecm success rate? Or filling his mids with ECM and sorely lacking in other areas? Or rigs to effect jam range? All depends on which angle you look at it from... But regardless of that, the Falcon isn't some unstoppable pwn mobile.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:31:00 - [71] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 10/05/2011 12:18:19 Originally by: Ludacrys Originally by: Tippia a Cerb. stopped reading right there That explains why you're having trouble with Falconsà Confirming this. Cerbs are pretty effective at keeping Falcons off the field (This was truie when Falcons could get 190Km jamming optimals). And jeez, it's not like Falcons are the only ships that can warp in at range. Did you know that your missiles stay active even after you're jammed? Lots of falcon pilots dont... until it's too late and another volley or two of Thunderbolt Furies ruin their day. A dramiel with an overheated MWD can be at 0 on a falcon before the jammers can complete a cycle. Even if the falc jams the dram (pretty likely), the drones will keep on attacking and stop it recloaking, and the dram can "bump-tackle" the falcon for long enough for it to be toast. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:34:00 - [72] Edited by: JC Anderson on 10/05/2011 12:35:54 Originally by: Malcanis A dramiel with an overheated MWD can be at 0 on a falcon before the jammers can complete a cycle. Even if the falc jams the dram (pretty likely), the drones will keep on attacking and stop it recloaking, and the dram can "bump-tackle" the falcon for long enough for it to be toast. Doubt I'd be able to even lock the Dram before it was on top of me in the first place. Edit: Well the MWD would create enough of a sig bloom that I might be able to.
Shasz Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:51:00 - [73] I got tired of reading the thread, but I'll throw out several counters to falcons just off the top of my head: Bombers with damps Arazu with damps Lachesis with damps Ishtar with sentries Domi with sentries Just about anything with drones out (set agressive, but not engaged) before it gets falcon'd. If a falcon jams you, warp off and come back. You can stand around being useless for 20 seconds, or you can warp out and back in closer to the falcon in about the same time (or less, depending) and be useful again. Also, if you stand around, the Falcon already has you locked - if you warp out and back, he has to re-lock you and reassess your threat before he can jam you a 2nd time. Think... don't just sit there and take it. ___________________________________
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:54:00 - [74] Falcons help stop the blob. /notsigned
voiddragon	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:58:00 - [75] Falcons are extremely vulnerable since the nerf. They don't need nerfed again unless you want eve to be about how much damage you can take and put out. Want to kill a falcon? Use FOF missiles, ECCM, back up arrays, grail implants, etc. CCP should stop nerfing ships because people are just unwilling to use their counters.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:08:00 - [76] The guy gets sore about falcons countering his short range squad. Wonder how he feels about sniper sentry Domis assisting the target painting Rapier? -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Spurty Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:12:00 - [77] CCPs idea of ECM is very sic-fi and probably more a kin to a virus than ECM. Should make the falcon vanish from over view only. Should make the falcon look like a friendly. Should do anything except remove your access to your guns. Just a mistakenly executed chunk of code. Now, F.O.F missiles can really ruine a falcons day, but they are even worse when it comes to execution. Can't program them to only target ships for example. So double whammy from CCP here. Agreeing with the OP, this ship is lame. Fizzt!
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:27:00 - [78] Edited by: Grimpak on 10/05/2011 13:27:51 Originally by: Ludacrys Originally by: Tippia a Cerb. stopped reading right there I shall now point and laugh at you. edit: also, for said falcon pilot to pull a stunt like that, all I can think of is he's in cahoots with cthulu or smth. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:28:00 - [79] just saying, fof missiles do not work very well. during my tests of them, they almost always targeted my fleet instead of the other guys. one in ten hit one of the other guy's fleet. it didn't even hit the same one repeatedly, so there's no damage focus. local reps usually take care of damage done by fof. please don't mention fof when defending falcons, they don't work and it makes you look silly. Originally by: CCP Shadow The trolls have been vanquished.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Jaik7 just saying, fof missiles do not work very well. during my tests of them, they almost always targeted my fleet instead of the other guys. one in ten hit one of the other guy's fleet. it didn't even hit the same one repeatedly, so there's no damage focus. local reps usually take care of damage done by fof. please don't mention fof when defending falcons, they don't work and it makes you look silly. FoF's problem is that they always go for the nearest aggressor. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:44:00 - [81] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Jaik7 just saying, fof missiles do not work very well. during my tests of them, they almost always targeted my fleet instead of the other guys. one in ten hit one of the other guy's fleet. it didn't even hit the same one repeatedly, so there's no damage focus. local reps usually take care of damage done by fof. please don't mention fof when defending falcons, they don't work and it makes you look silly. FoF's problem is that they always go for the nearest aggressor. Personally, I've always wanted to see them fly back and hit the person that launched them. ;) But alas, its only a dream. :(
Cire XIII Caldari Ever Flow Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:45:00 - [82] Any idea why ECM, webs, and disruptors/scrams can be overheated, but damps, painters, and tracking disruptors can't? Removing the ability to overheat ECMs, or adding the ability to other modules, may help balance things a little, if they are in fact unbalanced. ECM whines will not go away until ECM is removed; however, it wont be removed without a good reason as well as an alternative. As far as alternatives go there aren't many other attributes to affect with e-war (mass, agility, resists, etc). Any attempt at balance, without removal, will be a short lived ebb in threads like these. I am not an advocate of removing ECM as it makes sense to have jamming in a game like eve. Constructive features and ideas are where this frustration should have been revealed. ------------- Do not speak- unless it improves on silence.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:50:00 - [83] Prods his ship... I have a falcon! ________________________________________________
Captain Futur3	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:58:00 - [84] I have to agree that the falcon is way overpowered. Sure, there are some few counters, but fact that the counter to ECM has nearly no effect against jamming says it all. I often do low sec pvp in small gangs and i have won and lost a lot of fights, but so far no one was won against a falcon in the other team (about 10 fights with a falcon so far), no matter how outnumbered or better our ships were. We also use counter ECMs and still the order is to warp out as soon as a falcon is on radar. If we have to fight, falcon is always primary for drones and everything that can get into range. I think the pro falcon posters here are falcon pilots or have never fought against one. Face it, Falcon is imba. Way more than the Drake can ever be.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.10 14:25:00 - [85] Edited by: Tippia on 10/05/2011 14:28:47 Originally by: Captain Futur3 Sure, there are some few counters, but fact that the counter to ECM has nearly no effect against jamming says it all. How is that a fact? Quote: I think the pro falcon posters here are falcon pilots or have never fought against one àor maybe they have fought against them using working counters, seeing as how there are quite a few of those. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Spurty Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp	Posted - 2011.05.10 14:38:00 - [86] F.O.Fs exist as the counter to ECM. No ECM, no need for F.O.F missiles. They are dire, it is silly. CCP has done not a lot to balance it has it? Fizzt!
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.10 14:39:00 - [87] Originally by: Tippia àor maybe they have fought against them using working counters, seeing as how there are quite a few of those. Few of them that I can see defending Falcons right here in this thread as well. People I've known for awhile that haven't even trained into Recon Ships.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.05.10 14:54:00 - [88] Originally by: Ludacrys Originally by: Millie Clode As soon as the falcon decloaked, you should all have attempted to lock him up and set drones on him before he could deploy jams. Do you even play this game? Falcons decloak at 80km usually and thats beyond even the targeting range of most cruiser and battlecruiser hulls, not to mention you cannot put drones on something that is beyond 45km on a regular ship Well nooo, the avg PvPer would have 57km drone control range minimum from skills. I guess some would have 54km And yeh that's still out of range, but if you're lucky what'll happen is falcon will get first jam, that's 20 seconds of you burning towards the falcon, if he misses his second jam he's now in drone range. ofc if your entire fleet is scram/webbed you can't do this. But if that's the case you're prolly boned anyway. You'll say that the falcon will just burn away and it'll take ages to catch him. Well this is a good thing as it should hopefully put him out of jam range of your fleet Also if you're in a small gang attempting to engage another small gang, and it happens the enemy has tactical bookmarks throughout the area, you're ****ed if they bring any recon or specialised ship/gang. Tactical superiority and better organisation != falcons being OP ...oh wait Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Jack Tronic	Posted - 2011.05.10 15:00:00 - [89] Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:04:04 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:03:24 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:02:34 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:01:54 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:00:02 Originally by: Akita T Each and every one of those COULD be reworked to involve very little or even absolutely no randomness whatsoever. For instance: * damage of turrets could be made to depend much more on maneouvering and positioning and not at all on chance * ECM could reduce sensor resolution based on sensor strength and trigger an auto-relock of currently locked targets at decreased base lock time (so, essentially, instead of a chance to jam, you get X seconds jammed and cycletime-X seconds not jammed, depending on ECM stats, sensor strength and sensor resolution) Turret damage is already based on transversal, vectors and range, it actually is not random, when orbiting around someone who is moving your transversal and velocity vectors change so much between each other it seems that damage is "random". Sensor resolution? Theres sensor dampeners for that! Each race has its own brand of ewar, sensor damps are Gallente(tm). Though it would be a nice boost to them :P I'm surprised people don't understand ECM is chance based to a ridiculously degree, their jam strength divided by your sensor strength, you increase your sensor strength, you reduce their chance of jamming. If I use two ECCM on my domi and get 130 sensor strength, their chance of jams is about 6%. To be honest if I were to bring my rook to a fight, these kinds of whines would still emerge, a rook does not cloak but easily have double the jamming strength of a falcon.
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.05.10 15:08:00 - [90] EWAR sucks - but its game. Always has been. deal with it and move on Wherever you went - Here you are.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.05.10 15:13:00 - [91] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/05/2011 15:14:29 Personally, if you truly feel that something in the ECM/ECCM mechanics are broken, I would grab a Falcon and do some testing of my own. With ECCM, without ECCM, with implants, without implants, etc. It would significantly increase your knowledge of the mechanics, your position in this thread, and any bug report you may turn in. It is entirely possible that some bug is affecting one of the involved factors (implants for example), which can be difficult to detect. It is also entirely possible that you just had a run of bad luck. Run a series of thorough tests, it's the only way to be reasonably sure. That said, yes, there are effective counters beyond ECCM. As mentioned above having a staged (cloaked) stealth bomber or two with damps is one of my favorites... especially if you have an uber fast tackler that can redirect to ram him between jams and allow the volley of torps to cover the distance before he warps off. This is one reason that I prefer using two rigs that increase missile speed instead of one for speed, one for flight time. But I digress. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
dgastuffz Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2011.05.10 15:15:00 - [92] Originally by: To be honest if I were to bring my rook to a fight, these kinds of whines would still emerge, a rook does not cloak but easily have double the jamming strength of a falcon.[/quote ? rook falcon gets the same bonus ! jamming strength of both should be around 14.2
E man Industries	Posted - 2011.05.10 15:15:00 - [93] I agree but for a diffrent reason. ECM dominates E-war...to the point that it is E-war. Other forms simple are not as good. They do not work on all ships under all situations. ven under ideal situations they only equal ECM and are easier to counter..of tracking disrupted, lower transversal, fit tracking comps. ECCM fails in so many ways and offers not other benifits. Other counters to other e-war have other benifits such as (sensor boosters are usfull not just to counter damps, tracking PC usefull even when not disrupted for example) ECM needs a nerf or other e-war needs a boost. Or something in between. ______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin
Captain Futur3	Posted - 2011.05.10 15:17:00 - [94] Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 10/05/2011 15:21:44 I always use a Sensor strength booster on my Cane when i do low sec pvp. My strength is something over 30 and still the chance to jamm me is way over 50% for one jammer (at least thats the practical experience i had in combat in several fights). Also its a wrong mechanic that you have to force all of your ships to put counter ECMs on them to counter one single ship in the game. Compare it to weapon damage types: if you know there is one ship that does thermal damage in eve and all others do not, not all of your ships in your fleet have to waste slots for thermal resis to be prepared. With a falcon, you have, because one falcon can jamm 4 ships at the same time without getting in combat range for 90% of the ships that are involved. Its also all the time in warping range, so not in danger. Also compare the falcon to the other pendants like tracking jammer ships. Its a big joke. No one flies them but everyone flies a falcon.
Drykor Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2011.05.10 15:35:00 - [95] Falcons don't jam NEARLY as often as many people in this thread make it out to be. The only reason people dislike them so much is because it's extremely frustrating to even be jammed once. But I definitely call BS on the OP's story, to even jam all of those ships just once in a fight would need extreme luck or a fight lasting like 30 minutes. 120 sensor strength is WAY too much for a Falcon. Though it's technically possible to be so unlucky, it's by no means a situation to judge Falcon balance by. But permajammed? No way. --- Drykor - AHARM
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.10 15:57:00 - [96] Edited by: JC Anderson on 10/05/2011 16:00:55 True... As I said, even with Max skills I end up with far more failed jams than the OP would be led to believe. At which point I'm likely going to try and pull off a cross jam with another Racial. And my chances then are even lower. As for the post a couple above mine about the cane... Minmatar ships are sadly much easier to jam than the other races. It's one reason why I don't even bother fitting a Min racial jammer on my Falcons and Rooks and instead just loadout 2 caldari. (Due to the abundance of Drakes.) For Min I often just use another ecm type and go for a cross jam off the bat.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2011.05.10 16:03:00 - [97] With sensor strength 120 (and one assumes it would be higher as why wouldn't you overload?) absolute maxed falcon with race specific legion jammers overloaded (for the whole minute that is possible)and maxed proteus gang boost would on average have a SINGLE guardian jammed for 71% of time. That shows just how unlikey the ops story is of this falcon (which if so fit would only have 6k ehp unless fitting slaves) permajamming 5 such ships simultaneously. I can honestly say I have never been jammed by a falcon in my own logi which usually has lower sensor strength than that. Waves of ecm drones on the other hand seem to get jams in regardless. Most likely the op was cycle jammed by a very skilled (and lucky) falcon pilot who also had some damping back up and the op is counting lock time as jam time.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.05.10 16:05:00 - [98] This may still be relevant here. [Statistics] ECM and ECCM: Facts instead of feelings. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Rustynail79	Posted - 2011.05.10 16:34:00 - [99] Originally by: E man Industries I agree but for a diffrent reason. ECM dominates E-war...to the point that it is E-war. Other forms simple are not as good. They do not work on all ships under all situations. ven under ideal situations they only equal ECM and are easier to counter..of tracking disrupted, lower transversal, fit tracking comps. ECCM fails in so many ways and offers not other benifits. Other counters to other e-war have other benifits such as (sensor boosters are usfull not just to counter damps, tracking PC usefull even when not disrupted for example) ECM needs a nerf or other e-war needs a boost. Or something in between. I completely disagree with this as it goes against the whole mechanic of balacne for the factions. If you nerf ECM you would have to do some seriouse work on the caldari as they would be even more underpowered than they are now. Basically the way it is at the moement for raw firepower the amarr and minmatar have the most firepower but have the weakest ewar. Were as the Caldari and Gallanttee have the best ewar but are lacking in the firepower department (not counting nyx). If you go nerfing ECM what is the point of the caldari. Shield tanking is rubbish, delayed damage of missle is no good in pvp, rails are a joke. Except for the drake which is probably going to get the nerf to with all the moaning what exactly do the caldari have to offer besides ECM.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released	Posted - 2011.05.10 17:28:00 - [100] Sounds like a "I royally ***ed up on the logistics and want to blame something else" thread to me! Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
GateScout	Posted - 2011.05.10 17:45:00 - [101] Originally by: Nemu Endoras 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 A single falcon "permajammed" 4 ships? 2 ECCM backed guardians, a BS and a T3? I think you need to define "permajammed" because while this is theoretically possible, the chances of it happening (assuming ECM mechanics are still working properly) are incredible low. If permajammed means a few minutes of being jammed (rather than a cycle), I'd buy a lottery ticket if I were you...
captain foivos	Posted - 2011.05.10 17:47:00 - [102] OP's a virtual cut and paste from a thread made months ago. Also, I only successfully invented three of eight jobs as opposed to the usual four of eight. Is this the place where I should be posting? -- Need a break from EVE?
Spurty Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp	Posted - 2011.05.10 17:56:00 - [103] So the accepted counter to one ship mods and role is a blob of randomly theoretically fit ships you would never use except for this one encounter.? Eh? roles eyes Fizzt!
Generals4	Posted - 2011.05.10 18:05:00 - [104] Am i the only one who thought about this upon reading the title?
Waaaaaagggh	Posted - 2011.05.10 18:12:00 - [105] Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 10/05/2011 18:14:32 I posted on page 2 asking you to calculate the chances before you whine. Did you calculate yet? Take a standard falcon fit to eft, all lvl 5's, and see what probibility you come up with. Don't start whining and asking to nerf ecm just because your roam ended up getting killed off. I've gotten murdered by plenty of falcon alts. Doesn't make them broken
Captain Futur3	Posted - 2011.05.10 18:54:00 - [106] Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 10/05/2011 18:53:54 Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 10/05/2011 18:14:32 I posted on page 2 asking you to calculate the chances before you whine. Did you calculate yet? Take a standard falcon fit to eft, all lvl 5's, and see what probibility you come up with. Don't start whining and asking to nerf ecm just because your roam ended up getting killed off. I've gotten murdered by plenty of falcon alts. Doesn't make them broken What uses you the best math, if in game falcons rule in comparison to other comparable ships? Nothing. I am not the OP, but i know and remember what i have encountered in low sec and i KNOW that EVERY single fight with ONE falcon on the other side was like self destructing our ships. No matter if we had more ships (small groups of <6) or if we had the better ships. So your arguement is good on the paper, but not in game.
Ludacrys	Posted - 2011.05.10 20:03:00 - [107] >Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >falcon uncloaks 80km away and jams you how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released	Posted - 2011.05.10 20:33:00 - [108] Originally by: Captain Futur3 Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 10/05/2011 18:53:54 Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 10/05/2011 18:14:32 I posted on page 2 asking you to calculate the chances before you whine. Did you calculate yet? Take a standard falcon fit to eft, all lvl 5's, and see what probibility you come up with. Don't start whining and asking to nerf ecm just because your roam ended up getting killed off. I've gotten murdered by plenty of falcon alts. Doesn't make them broken What uses you the best math, if in game falcons rule in comparison to other comparable ships? Nothing. I am not the OP, but i know and remember what i have encountered in low sec and i KNOW that EVERY single fight with ONE falcon on the other side was like self destructing our ships. No matter if we had more ships (small groups of <6) or if we had the better ships. So your arguement is good on the paper, but not in game. Proof or STFU and even if you post links to battles where you lost a gang to another with 1 falcon I bet there are plenty more you lost when they didn't have one! * Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.05.10 22:17:00 - [109] Originally by: Ludacrys >Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >falcon uncloaks 80km away and jams you how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >Maelstrom uncloaks 80km away and gives you an 8k RF Fusion enema how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.05.10 22:52:00 - [110] In case anyone didn't get the point, 2 ships are usually > 1 ship. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.05.10 22:55:00 - [111] Incidentally, you can do the same demonstration with pretty much any ship that can project at 80Km, including the other recons (A Rook is actually better than a Falcon because it can do ~300 DPS as well), almost any battleship, most HACs, heck, even a Drake. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Fix Lag	Posted - 2011.05.10 23:55:00 - [112] Originally by: Malcanis In case anyone didn't get the point, 2 ships are usually > 1 ship. Counterpoint: Echelon. Fix Lag!
Mark Hamill Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium	Posted - 2011.05.11 00:32:00 - [113] Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once. Sure, 1 thing? Bring your own Caldari pilot. 1. Fly toward falcon. 2. Load FOF's. 3. Watch falcon run or pop. The one thing you are forgetting to mention about a Falcon, it's actual tank is non-existent. I've personally sat there permajammed by Falcons and Blackbirds and shot them to pieces with FOF's. Rooks are a bit tougher to deal with but they can be handled in the same way. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool.
Captain Futur3	Posted - 2011.05.11 01:07:00 - [114] Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson Originally by: Captain Futur3 Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 10/05/2011 18:53:54 Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 10/05/2011 18:14:32 I posted on page 2 asking you to calculate the chances before you whine. Did you calculate yet? Take a standard falcon fit to eft, all lvl 5's, and see what probibility you come up with. Don't start whining and asking to nerf ecm just because your roam ended up getting killed off. I've gotten murdered by plenty of falcon alts. Doesn't make them broken What uses you the best math, if in game falcons rule in comparison to other comparable ships? Nothing. I am not the OP, but i know and remember what i have encountered in low sec and i KNOW that EVERY single fight with ONE falcon on the other side was like self destructing our ships. No matter if we had more ships (small groups of <6) or if we had the better ships. So your arguement is good on the paper, but not in game. Proof or STFU and even if you post links to battles where you lost a gang to another with 1 falcon I bet there are plenty more you lost when they didn't have one! No, YOU stfu or proof me the reverse! Also i dont care what you think. There are always a lot of people who dont want their stuff to be nerved, even if they know that its overpowered. I bet you also think the drake is absolutely balanced while facts in game and stats prove its not. I am minmatar, but i also skilled the drake and yeah.. i still think its too powerful in comparison to other ships. Btw, just because you CAN counter a ship does not make it balanced. Balanced means that with a comparable amount of ISK and players/skill, you have nearly equal results on both sides. This is practical not possible, but there are some extrema in nearly every game. Falcon is one in eve. Face it.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.05.11 02:22:00 - [115] Originally by: Captain Futur3 Btw, just because you CAN counter a ship does not make it balanced. Balanced means that with a comparable amount of ISK and players/skill, you have nearly equal results on both sides. This is practical not possible, but there are some extrema in nearly every game. Falcon is one in eve. Face it. EVE is a rock/paper/scissors game, not a "balanced ships" game. If all ships were balanced against each other, why would you fly T2 ships instead of T1 variants? -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Captain Futur3	Posted - 2011.05.11 12:06:00 - [116] Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 11/05/2011 12:07:30 Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: Captain Futur3 Btw, just because you CAN counter a ship does not make it balanced. Balanced means that with a comparable amount of ISK and players/skill, you have nearly equal results on both sides. This is practical not possible, but there are some extrema in nearly every game. Falcon is one in eve. Face it. EVE is a rock/paper/scissors game, not a "balanced ships" game. If all ships were balanced against each other, why would you fly T2 ships instead of T1 variants? And what is the point of your arguement? Did i (or anyone else in this thread) said anything about ships beeing balanced against all other ships, or that we want this? No and this is good, but still there must be a balancing between all ships and a game design where one single ship class can ruin nearly all small gang pvp is definately not balanced.
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.11 12:27:00 - [117] ecm is overpowered <~~~ yes knew that already eccm doesn't do much <~~~ yea we knew that too Conclusion??? oh you're just whining, k thx
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.05.11 12:35:00 - [118] Originally by: Herrring Edited by: Herrring on 09/05/2011 23:39:47 damn that falcon pilot should go out and buy a lottery ticket right now. This . Originally by: Doddy Waves of ecm drones on the other hand seem to get jams in regardless And this .
DasDizzy Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2011.05.11 12:39:00 - [119] It's because of Falcon
DarkAegix	Posted - 2011.05.11 12:56:00 - [120] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ludacrys >Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >falcon uncloaks 80km away and jams you how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >Maelstrom uncloaks 80km away and gives you an 8k RF Fusion enema how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt >Ship scrams you >Maelstrom uncloaks 80km away and can't target because of sensor calibration time >Timer is up, and enemy kills the tackler. Maelstrom manages to deal <8k damage. Not enough to alpha even a cruiser. >Enemy is still alive. Enemy can fight back & get under guns. Enemy can flee. Maelstrom doesn't have anything to do. Waits for arty cycle. Meanwhile, a Falcon can effectively disable 3+ ships with no decloak penalty.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.11 13:21:00 - [121] Originally by: DarkAegix Meanwhile, a Falcon can effectively disable 3+ ships with no decloak penalty. Not really, no. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ludacrys	Posted - 2011.05.11 15:29:00 - [122] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: DarkAegix Meanwhile, a Falcon can effectively disable 3+ ships with no decloak penalty. Not really, no. yes really, yes
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.11 15:32:00 - [123] Originally by: Ludacrys yes really, yes Seeing as how they do have decloak penalties and as how they can't really "effectively disable 3+ ships"à no. àunless I missed a sudden turn in the conversation somewhere, and we're talking about bombers all of a sudden. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.11 17:33:00 - [124] Sure, nerf the falcon. But when you do, don't forget to change the following electronic warfare to chance-based. Target Painting Sensor Dampeners Tracking Disruptors Energy Neutralizers Warp disruptors/warp scramblers Stasis webifiers HIC bubble/infinity point If you want to treat all electronic warfare as the same, we will make them all the same. Wanna fight that guy? Make sure he doesn't align because when your "point" misses a cycle, he'll be able to warp away. Is that dramiel going 5km/s? Make sure your stasis webifier doesn't miss a cycle, otherwise, he'll be able to make a run for it. Did that supercarrier just jump? Your infinity point must have missed a cycle. Whoops.
mentalmilly	Posted - 2011.05.11 18:49:00 - [125] Originally by: AtheistOfFail Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 11/05/2011 17:38:55 Sure, nerf the falcon. But when you do, don't forget to change the following electronic warfare to chance-based. Target Painting Sensor Dampeners Tracking Disruptors Energy Neutralizers Warp disruptors/warp scramblers Stasis webifiers HIC bubble/infinity point If you want to treat all electronic warfare as the same, we will make them all the same. Wanna fight that guy? Make sure he doesn't align because when your "point" misses a cycle, he'll be able to warp away. Is that dramiel going 5km/s? Make sure your stasis webifier doesn't miss a cycle, otherwise, he'll be able to make a run for it. Did that supercarrier just jump? Your infinity point must have missed a cycle. Whoops. PS: Anything under electronic warfare in the market should be chance-based if the falcon is further nerfed. Realy not following what your saying. You are saying you want them all treated the same. Jamming is supposed to be chanced based as it is the question(at least in my mind) is wether or not there is an issue with the calculations for getting that jam or wether ECCM dose well anything what so ever in my experiance it dosent. and you point out all the other types of ewar none of the rest gimp you so hard you cant turn on your guns. your pointed shoot the git pointing you run your webbed turn on your mwd/ab kill him run target panted erm just go away sensor damp get closer or wait longer for lock (script dependant) Tracking disrupters are chance based as I recal (I think) energu Neuts* cap boosters hic bubble *burn out of range. Ofcourse you never get hit with just one of these there are ALWAYS combinations of the above but in all circumstances that dont include Jammers you can "go down in a blaze of glory" throw in a jammer and you watch your ship slowly die thinking wow this is great fun. so to reitarate wtf are you on about lol
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.11 22:12:00 - [126] Originally by: mentalmilly and you point out all the other types of ewar none of the rest gimp you so hard you cant turn on your guns. So we should change the sandbox to fit you. Let's hope CCP gets around to this and takes away all variety from ship fittings and weapons. All weapons should be the same and so should all ewar. That way noone will whine.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.12 08:55:00 - [127] Damps dont counter falcons. (damps have limitted range, after which they are also chance based).
Borisk Zeltsh	Posted - 2011.05.12 11:04:00 - [128] seems like pilot error and said pilots blaming falcon for theyer stupidaty
mentalmilly	Posted - 2011.05.12 11:14:00 - [129] Originally by: AtheistOfFail Originally by: mentalmilly and you point out all the other types of ewar none of the rest gimp you so hard you cant turn on your guns. So we should change the sandbox to fit you. Let's hope CCP gets around to this and takes away all variety from ship fittings and weapons. All weapons should be the same and so should all ewar. That way noone will whine. They took away my nano to apease other people sandbox and it was infinatly more counterable than watching a counter bar while you die. Interesting how the same defences ccp ignored for that come up here.
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.12 11:34:00 - [130] Originally by: Furb Killer Damps dont counter falcons. (damps have limitted range, after which they are also chance based). Have you ever flown an arazu or lachesis? I know I routinely keep a buddy in a razu(or am the buddy in the razu) whenever I am dictating fleet comp, for the simple reason than a cloak arazu following your around is all the ace card you need... >fleets engage >falcon decloaks, starts jamming people >arazu, with better max range on damps(I have ~130km iirc, optimal out to ~45km, recons to 4, meta 4 damps, and range scripts) decloaks, and damps the falcons range down to 5km >falcon dies or runs >fight continues, only now YOU have the ewar, not them >??? >Profit Oh, and the arazu isn't there specifically because of falcons, because I almost never run into them, I like the arazu around for the same reason people like falcons around. It changes the rules, and I can control when the rules are changed. So, is the concept of flying with your own ewar ship around simple enough for you? Specialized ewar ships counter each other quite nicely, and imply similar amounts of skills(both SP and player) which makes it fair. tbh tho, ewar is the one real area in Eve where more SP is not counterable by a smart noob, meaning said noob need to be nice to older players. ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2011.05.12 11:40:00 - [131] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 12/05/2011 11:44:04 Originally by: Akita T To be honest, I personally dislike any chance-based mechanics automatically. They make sense because they keep an element of surprise / unpredictability in the game. Nobody would like a game where nothing can ever perform out of the ordinary and everything is always 100% predictable. As for the OP: Dampeners or counter ECM. Period.
Hermosa Diosas The Scope	Posted - 2011.05.12 12:15:00 - [132] Edited by: Hermosa Diosas on 12/05/2011 12:20:01 Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 12/05/2011 11:44:04 Originally by: Akita T To be honest, I personally dislike any chance-based mechanics automatically. They make sense because they keep an element of surprise / unpredictability in the game. Nobody would like a game where nothing can ever perform out of the ordinary and everything is always 100% predictable. As for the OP: Dampeners or counter ECM. Period. Why do people come out with silly statements like this...Your Jammed period from 50+KM away you cant use anything, becuase you cant lock the target! Jeezz Falcons as still overpowered, making them with less range doesnt really help
Hermosa Diosas The Scope	Posted - 2011.05.12 12:22:00 - [133] Originally by: AtheistOfFail Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 11/05/2011 17:38:55 Sure, nerf the falcon. But when you do, don't forget to change the following electronic warfare to chance-based. Target Painting Sensor Dampeners Tracking Disruptors Energy Neutralizers Warp disruptors/warp scramblers Stasis webifiers HIC bubble/infinity point If you want to treat all electronic warfare as the same, we will make them all the same. Wanna fight that guy? Make sure he doesn't align because when your "point" misses a cycle, he'll be able to warp away. Is that dramiel going 5km/s? Make sure your stasis webifier doesn't miss a cycle, otherwise, he'll be able to make a run for it. Did that supercarrier just jump? Your infinity point must have missed a cycle. Whoops. PS: Anything under electronic warfare in the market should be chance-based if the falcon is further nerfed. To be honest yes, because everyone should have a least A CHANCE to escape, having no chance is stupid and unfair. Especially if your solo and cant even attempt to get away
Diablo Ex Caldari Reasonable People	Posted - 2011.05.12 13:20:00 - [134] My answer is Drones set to Aggressive, and a full rack of F.O.F. heavy missiles. Go ahead,jam this... ---
Painpill	Posted - 2011.05.12 14:06:00 - [135] Edited by: Painpill on 12/05/2011 14:06:33 Troll is so ¦08 get over yourself 1/10 for effort I do not belive any of this BS which you spew on theese forums, since i haz proof of your failure wanna see? okay here goes. P = (ECM strength / Ship sensor strength), % chance of you getting jammed is therefore : P%=(Ecm Strength / Ship sensor strength)* 100, and most falcons have an ECM strength of 14 since you know ,stacking penalty, now lets put your figures in to do some calculations P(%)=(14/120)100 => P(%)=11.66% chance of getting jammed. Now the % chance of the jammer FAILING is = (1-P)100, this give you theese numbers (1-0,1166666)100=88,33% chance of failing Now lets assume that he has 2 racial jammers on each guardian the the chance of ALL jammers FAILING would be (1-p)^N, and so the the probability that at least one jammer succeeds is 1-(1-p)^N, now lets crunch some more numbers First : P(all failing)% = ((1-P)^N) => P(all failing)% = ((1-0,1166666)^2)100 => P(all failing)% = 78,028% chance off both jammers failing Second : P(1 Jam succeding)% = (1-(1-p)^N)100 => P(1 Jam succeding)% = (1-(1-0,1166666)^2)100 => P(1 Jam succeding)% = 21,972% Chance of 1 jammer succeding On top of that when you hit the max optimal with a jammer which is about 71 km max, there is a SECOND chance based roll on the falloff to determin whether or not you even get to do jamming chance roll Therefore the conclusion is either you guys where dual boxing and have absolutely no clue of what you where doing or you have ****ty whining pilots who have no idea of where they are on the battlefield, you know guardian have around 70 km range on reppers? my advice to you is either shoot the falcon as soon as it uncloaks OR have you combat ships right in themiddle between the falcon and the guardians if you look at it on a straight line, since falcons rarely go in close you can put about 120km range between gaurdians and falcons.
Cloora APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2011.05.12 21:38:00 - [136] I am that Falcon pilot. I am pretty uber and you can see from my Battleclinic stats I am a maxxed skilled Falcon pilot from how often I'm in it in PvP. I have EVERY skill related to flying that ship at level V and I have a really awesome fit. Ok no really, I am max skilled but I am going to tell you I have a 1600mm plate and a DC II for a reason. Derp! Drones, missed jams and OMG the smart pilots that use FoF missiles and fly right at my slow plated pig of a ship. I get called names and am accused of being an alt but I'm the main. Whatever I can handle it. But why is the Falcon hated so much more then a Scorp or Rook? It is the CovOps cloak. You don't see me on directional so I'm an absolute surprise most of the time and you aren't prepared for the violating I'm about to do. BTW I fly with a max skilled unprobable Tengu a lot that has an ECM link and a mindlink. I have a racial jam strength around 16 points. I still get killed sometimes and I have to warp out often. What does my gang fear as much or more then another Falcon? A pair of Guardians. The Falcon is a great ship and a Force multiplier but so are other ships ------------------------------------------ CEO and Major Shareholder of the APEX Conglomerate Producer of Starsi brand softdrinks and Torped-Os! brand cereal as well as many other fine products
Cloora APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2011.05.12 21:42:00 - [137] Oh and azhpol is so right. An Arazu damping me screws me up worse then another Falcon because while the Falcon MAY jam me first an Arazu will succeed in neutering me if I can't jam him first. I HATE arazus ------------------------------------------ CEO and Major Shareholder of the APEX Conglomerate Producer of Starsi brand softdrinks and Torped-Os! brand cereal as well as many other fine products
Komen Gallente The Night Crew	Posted - 2011.05.12 22:30:00 - [138] Originally by: Jack Tronic Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:04:04 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:03:24 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:02:34 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:01:54 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 10/05/2011 15:00:02 Originally by: Akita T Each and every one of those COULD be reworked to involve very little or even absolutely no randomness whatsoever. For instance: * damage of turrets could be made to depend much more on maneouvering and positioning and not at all on chance * ECM could reduce sensor resolution based on sensor strength and trigger an auto-relock of currently locked targets at decreased base lock time (so, essentially, instead of a chance to jam, you get X seconds jammed and cycletime-X seconds not jammed, depending on ECM stats, sensor strength and sensor resolution) Turret damage is already based on transversal, vectors and range, it actually is not random, when orbiting around someone who is moving your transversal and velocity vectors change so much between each other it seems that damage is "random". Sensor resolution? Theres sensor dampeners for that! Each race has its own brand of ewar, sensor damps are Gallente(tm). Though it would be a nice boost to them :P I'm surprised people don't understand ECM is chance based to a ridiculously degree, their jam strength divided by your sensor strength, you increase your sensor strength, you reduce their chance of jamming. If I use two ECCM on my domi and get 130 sensor strength, their chance of jams is about 6%. To be honest if I were to bring my rook to a fight, these kinds of whines would still emerge, a rook does not cloak but easily have double the jamming strength of a falcon. I'm sorry, did you say that turret damage is NOT random? Here's an easy one to show you where you're misinformed: Anchor a medium secure can. Sit stationary, relative to said can, and fire with turrets. Don't group them - you'll get more results more quickly. Then look at your log, and wonder at the sensibility of a stationary ship shooting a stationary object that can't maintain its aim and instead will even MISS occasionally. Transversal and angular do play a role in reducing the chance to hit, but it's still chance-based.
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.13 01:31:00 - [139] Edited by: Outouchmatralala on 13/05/2011 01:31:59 I agree whole heartedly that ecm is overpowered in this game. ccp knows this. The difference between it and the other recons is that once it's effect is made, even its just on two ships, thats two ships that can't do a single thing to anyone, as oppose to a rapier which can effect 1 aspect of the enemy.
IoWalker	Posted - 2011.05.13 01:35:00 - [140] to me the Falcon issue just rustles the need for anti-Falcon fleet members present. GOD FORBID you have to ask for this potential help in your small fleet. relax people.
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.13 01:41:00 - [141] Originally by: IoWalker to me the Falcon issue just rustles the need for anti-Falcon fleet members present. GOD FORBID you have to ask for this potential help in your small fleet. relax people. clearly you don't do solo or small gang pvp, GTFO.
IoWalker	Posted - 2011.05.13 02:36:00 - [142] Originally by: Outouchmatralala clearly you don't do solo or small gang pvp, GTFO. Who was talking solo here, idiot? As far as small gang goes, TELL ME why I am so very wrong. NOW.
Fix Lag	Posted - 2011.05.13 05:06:00 - [143] "Solo PvP" is for people who don't have any friends. Often confused with "suicide." Or the person is really, super, awesome, pro-level amazing, but there aren't too many people out there like that. Fix Lag!
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.13 06:14:00 - [144] Originally by: Azhpol Originally by: Furb Killer Damps dont counter falcons. (damps have limitted range, after which they are also chance based). Have you ever flown an arazu or lachesis? I know I routinely keep a buddy in a razu(or am the buddy in the razu) whenever I am dictating fleet comp, for the simple reason than a cloak arazu following your around is all the ace card you need... >fleets engage >falcon decloaks, starts jamming people >arazu, with better max range on damps(I have ~130km iirc, optimal out to ~45km, recons to 4, meta 4 damps, and range scripts) decloaks, and damps the falcons range down to 5km >falcon dies or runs >fight continues, only now YOU have the ewar, not them >??? >Profit Oh, and the arazu isn't there specifically because of falcons, because I almost never run into them, I like the arazu around for the same reason people like falcons around. It changes the rules, and I can control when the rules are changed. So, is the concept of flying with your own ewar ship around simple enough for you? Specialized ewar ships counter each other quite nicely, and imply similar amounts of skills(both SP and player) which makes it fair. tbh tho, ewar is the one real area in Eve where more SP is not counterable by a smart noob, meaning said noob need to be nice to older players. So you got 45km optimal range, now calculate how deep into fall off you are using them, so it is chance based if you will decrease the locking range of a ship (also not really useful for the fight itself), while for the falcon it is chance based if he completely shuts you down.
Dopekitten We Are Furious	Posted - 2011.05.13 07:21:00 - [145] I feel that the main reason people complain more about the falcon as opposed to the other ewar ships (pilgrim, rapier, and arazu) is because the ewar mechanism is luck based as opposed to skill based, as well as the fact that it's counter is a ship either fit specifically to counter it, or another account (which many don't have the luxury of having). Lets look at similar scenarios between the covert ops recon ships. You're sitting at a gate in 0.0 in your cap boosted, active tanked, heavy missile tengu, ready to beat up some unsuspecting gang that comes along and underestimates you. Sure enough, along comes a 3 man gank of a huricane, harbinger and myrmidon, and you think, i've got this, my faction fit tengu can tank all that dps and put out some hurt on them too. You start attacking the harbinger who flies away from you (and the gate), so you follow to keep tackle and kill him. As you're 20+km off the gate, and halfway through killing the harbinger, suddenly: A wild rapier appears! Uh-oh, this is perhaps an issue. You can no longer chase the harbinger because the rapier has slowed you, and you can't go back to the gate for this reason as well. However, you can still try shooting the rapier and force it to fly off and proceed to either go back to the gate or kill the other enemies. You're not in that much danger as long as you assess the situation correctly. Even if you were in a short range ship, you could take out the nearby tackle and warp off since the rapier can't tackle you from long range (and if it comes close, it's dead) This is all pilot skill. A wild arazu appears! No biggie, once again you can shoot the arazu from long range and/or MWD back to gate. It's unlikely the arazu will 2 point you, and if it does, you can shoot it. If it has you damped in 2point range (unlikely since that's around 28km), you can still attempt to fly back to the gate, albeit slowly, and if the enemy is already close to you, i.e. the harbinger you were killing, you can stay close to him since presumably you have him 2 pointed). In most cases you can outrun the arazu or run to gate. Again, this is all pilot skill. A wild pilgrim appears! Lol TD's on a missile ship. Lets say you were in a turret ship though. You can minimize the issues from TD's by properly maneuvering your ship, although this isn't a perfect solution, if you're good enough, you can maintain proper DPS. This is skill based. The pilgrim is also neuting you. Luckily, you have a counter to this, a cap booster, which is also a very often used item on a ship that serves other purposes apart from semi-countering neuts (not like an ECCM). Even if you did not have a cap booster or nos, or high cap regen (all very common), you can still use low cap mods/no cap weapons. Your use of the cap booster must be skillful though in order to boost your repper through the neuts. Again, skill. A wild falcon appears! You are permajammed/close to permajammed and are fully tackled by the other members of the falcons gang. You can't kill the harbinger anymore, much less the falcon. Even if you are unjammed for a little bit, there isn't much you can do--you never know when you will be next jammed, it could be right before you kill the harbinger where you would have gotten away due to the lack of tackle if you did, or you could be permajammed. This is all luck, not skill. You are not determining whether or not you live, the game is. Sure, you could have an ECCM, but this only improves your chances, and is a rather useless item on a ship that only helps in certain scenarios vs prop mods (vs webs/ranged based ewar), cap boosters (vs neuts), tracking enhancers (vs TD's). This is what I find infuriating, and I would imagine what others do aswell. The feeling of being helpless, literally unable to do anything, even try to kill your enemey. This is only associated with the falcon. I am of the opinion that ECM should be removed completely from the game for this reason
Brenya Perircle	Posted - 2011.05.13 07:30:00 - [146] Originally by: Desya Dak'ann Originally by: Nemu Endoras Originally by: Discrodia Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 2 things. 1. BECAUSE OF FALCON. 2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself. Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once. You sound to be quite an inexperienced pvper. You made a series of drastic errors, 1. you did not kill the falcon as soon as it appeared on grid. Whenever, I have FC'd an op, the order of **** to die first goes as follows, ECM, Logi, Bubblers > Else that is it, if you fail to keep order with you fleet you will fail. After the Falcon had jammed your guardians, a BS and a T3, had you not realised, that it was wrecking havoc across your fleet? Which brings me to my second point, why on earth had you not had your own ECM? Even if its a blackbird, ECM is chanced based, if you can jam their falcon before they jam yours, your in luck. My third and final point is based upon your fleet composition, why do you have T3s and BS's rolling around in the same gang? Unless your T3 was a fleet booster, then of course its understandable, but then it being jammed would make no difference.... being jammed doesn't make any difference to your fleet bonus's Apparently you only FC scrub gangs. Logi #2 primary? lol. Get more alpha, and learn2eve.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.13 07:32:00 - [147] I have a fully-fitted Falcon sitting in my home station that I am almost positive I've never used in combat. I'm actually starting to regret that, now. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.15 16:14:00 - [148] every1 train up falcons, and abuse the ship till some1 cries and makes ccp notice
Mr Blue Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.05.15 16:28:00 - [149] Edited by: Mr Blue on 15/05/2011 16:28:00 just drop supercaps and laught at the falcons been unable to save their mains. then if they still stick around trow a swarm of fighters on em. :texasranger:
Telvani Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber	Posted - 2011.05.15 16:29:00 - [150] Falcons are perfectly balanced atm (and no I have never flown one, or even had caldari cruiser 5 trained) there are plenty of viable counters. What does annoy me is this incorrect use of the term 'permajammed' Permajammed is when ECM strength > sensor strength so the ship can never get a lock. Getting jammed 3 times in a row is NOT permajam, its just unlucky. If your guardians really did have a SS of 120 then the chance of jamming them is gunna be something like 5-10%, so less than 1 in a 1000 chance of getting 3 jams in a row.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2011.05.15 16:53:00 - [151] LOL .. peeps coming after the falcons... AGAIN SKUNK (o)
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.15 21:09:00 - [152] Originally by: Telvani Falcons are perfectly balanced atm (and no I have never flown one, or even had caldari cruiser 5 trained) there are plenty of viable counters. What does annoy me is this incorrect use of the term 'permajammed' Permajammed is when ECM strength > sensor strength so the ship can never get a lock. Getting jammed 3 times in a row is NOT permajam, its just unlucky. If your guardians really did have a SS of 120 then the chance of jamming them is gunna be something like 5-10%, so less than 1 in a 1000 chance of getting 3 jams in a row. Your maths are incorrect sir. Having been in such situations i can also tell you that having a high sensor strength of 90 will do you little to nothing. (You can never get 120ss unless you dedicate alot of mids on your ship and on your friends ships)
Troll Bridgington Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.05.15 22:13:00 - [153] This thread was brought to you because of falcon.
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.16 02:48:00 - [154] please speak up about this matter. its a completely overpowered game mechanic.
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.16 11:32:00 - [155] Originally by: Outouchmatralala please speak up about this matter. its a completely overpowered game mechanic. No. Its not completely overpowered. Its a little overpowered, but fairly easy to beat with tactics that, in the absence of an enemy falcon, will make your enemy feel just like the falcon has been making you feel. Those tactics? As stated, your own ewar! Bring one of the gallente or caldari recons for yourself, and you level the play field against those ships, and have the advantage against people who didn't prepare right. Oh, and regarding the arazu 2pt range, fit 2 long points and 3 damps ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.16 11:40:00 - [156] Edited by: JC Anderson on 16/05/2011 11:44:43 I'm just not sure what sort of drugs people are on that say they've never won a fight if there was a falcon on the opposing side. When on contract, we treat them as primary targets just as they should be. But a falcon on the opposite side has never been anything close to an "I WIN" button in my experience. If that was the case, I would never leave my Falcon, and I doubt my CEO would want me to. But more often than not I am asked to bring out my curse and NOT my Falcon in order to fit our current objective. Falcon's are not the end-all deciding factor in a fight. When one shows up and our scout reports it, we don't completely change what we were doing just because a Falcon has arrived. No more so than we would do for any other recon ship. At least its not like assaulting a death star that is surrounded by a ton of faction jammers preventing half or more of our fleet from firing for most of the bash.
Caliglia	Posted - 2011.05.16 14:39:00 - [157] Edited by: Caliglia on 16/05/2011 14:46:51 This whole argument seems to me to be about some one who got unbelievably unlucky witch is statistical unlikely but apparently not impossible vs all the people that either think they dit not do enough to defend against ECM or people who love there falcons and don't want to see a Nerf. Posts like this is nothing new its probably NR. 2000 on this forums life time from people who experienced his and his fleet destruction be course of a single ECM ship. The match behind the game mechanics should be that if you have a falcon with max skills and 2 low slot booster you get a 13.45 point jam on a racial specific jammer if you like the posty hade a 120 sensor strength 13.45/120100= 11.2 % Chance that you get james for every time the falcon ran a jammer on one of your over ECCMed ships. Seems to me like your either extremely unlucky. Off course if you hade slow targeting times a falcon might be able to reapply jammers to another target before you can get a target lock on the falcon. As for ECM drones there jamming strength is vary low So Im guessing what happened was that your small fleet tryed to kill a larger fleet using the old permatanking ability's of a set of logistic ships linked together and the falcon got lucky so there overwhelming numbers just got the time needed to kill one of your logistic ships ending the fight as a win for them. If this is not the case then i cant think of a reason it turned out so bad for you. Any ways numbers matter especially if the other side knows how to counter the set of tactics your trying to use. PS. the omni jammer on a falcon with 2 lov upgrades has a 8.9 jamming stenght 8.9/120100= 7.4 %
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.16 21:26:00 - [158] Originally by: Caliglia Edited by: Caliglia on 16/05/2011 14:46:51 This whole argument seems to me to be about some one who got unbelievably unlucky witch is statistical unlikely but apparently not impossible vs all the people that either think they dit not do enough to defend against ECM or people who love there falcons and don't want to see a Nerf. Posts like this is nothing new its probably NR. 2000 on this forums life time from people who experienced his and his fleet destruction be course of a single ECM ship. The match behind the game mechanics should be that if you have a falcon with max skills and 2 low slot booster you get a 13.45 point jam on a racial specific jammer if you like the posty hade a 120 sensor strength 13.45/120100= 11.2 % Chance that you get james for every time the falcon ran a jammer on one of your over ECCMed ships. Seems to me like your either extremely unlucky. Off course if you hade slow targeting times a falcon might be able to reapply jammers to another target before you can get a target lock on the falcon. As for ECM drones there jamming strength is vary low So Im guessing what happened was that your small fleet tryed to kill a larger fleet using the old permatanking ability's of a set of logistic ships linked together and the falcon got lucky so there overwhelming numbers just got the time needed to kill one of your logistic ships ending the fight as a win for them. If this is not the case then i cant think of a reason it turned out so bad for you. Any ways numbers matter especially if the other side knows how to counter the set of tactics your trying to use. PS. the omni jammer on a falcon with 2 lov upgrades has a 8.9 jamming stenght 8.9/120100= 7.4 % your math doesn't work in eve, seriously play the game before you start posting numbers
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.05.16 22:02:00 - [159] Originally by: Outouchmatralala Originally by: Caliglia Edited by: Caliglia on 16/05/2011 14:46:51 This whole argument seems to me to be about some one who got unbelievably unlucky witch is statistical unlikely but apparently not impossible vs all the people that either think they dit not do enough to defend against ECM or people who love there falcons and don't want to see a Nerf. Posts like this is nothing new its probably NR. 2000 on this forums life time from people who experienced his and his fleet destruction be course of a single ECM ship. The match behind the game mechanics should be that if you have a falcon with max skills and 2 low slot booster you get a 13.45 point jam on a racial specific jammer if you like the posty hade a 120 sensor strength 13.45/120100= 11.2 % Chance that you get james for every time the falcon ran a jammer on one of your over ECCMed ships. Seems to me like your either extremely unlucky. Off course if you hade slow targeting times a falcon might be able to reapply jammers to another target before you can get a target lock on the falcon. As for ECM drones there jamming strength is vary low So Im guessing what happened was that your small fleet tryed to kill a larger fleet using the old permatanking ability's of a set of logistic ships linked together and the falcon got lucky so there overwhelming numbers just got the time needed to kill one of your logistic ships ending the fight as a win for them. If this is not the case then i cant think of a reason it turned out so bad for you. Any ways numbers matter especially if the other side knows how to counter the set of tactics your trying to use. PS. the omni jammer on a falcon with 2 lov upgrades has a 8.9 jamming stenght 8.9/120100= 7.4 % your math doesn't work in eve, seriously play the game before you start posting numbers Actually, lets see YOUR numbers. You've been given the exact breakdown of just how improbable your encounter was, try disputing it with something other than "NO YOU!!!" Falcons can be a pain, but they are also relatively easy to kill if you hold at least one or two ships in reserve at the beginning of the fight. As pointed out Stealth Bombers work well in this role, either killing or driving off the Falcon and supplying raw damage for the rest of the battle. Arazu's actually are very, very effective in this role (sorry Furb, you make a good point but you have to learn to fight in fall off). There are many others that will work too, it just takes not showing your hand too soon. Expect the Falcon. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
slightly sillydude	Posted - 2011.05.16 22:46:00 - [160] Situation as described by OP is not even close to possible. There was probably some sensor dampening going on and in the heat of the battle no one could figure out what the problem was.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.05.16 23:03:00 - [161] Originally by: Mag's This may still be relevant here. [Statistics] ECM and ECCM: Facts instead of feelings. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Riddick Liddell	Posted - 2011.05.16 23:32:00 - [162] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mag's This may still be relevant here. [Statistics] ECM and ECCM: Facts instead of feelings. The statistical value there that factors in is the date. Ignored by CCP since 2008. Not only the over powered nature of the Falcon but the underpowered nature of the ECCM. The part about this aspect of EVE that makes me see CCP as complete *******s is, the people trying to counter the Falcon want to fight, they don't want to run. CCP is telling them, that's nice. We want you to lose, period. Oh and interesting this came up the same time they decided to play with Gurristas ECM abilities and bugged it out.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.05.16 23:35:00 - [163] Originally by: riddick Liddell the people trying to counter the Falcon want to fight, they don't want to run. CCP is telling them, that's nice. We want you to lose, period. There are options available, they have been mentioned many times. Some just don't want/can't be arsed to use them. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Riddick Liddell	Posted - 2011.05.16 23:49:00 - [164] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: riddick Liddell the people trying to counter the Falcon want to fight, they don't want to run. CCP is telling them, that's nice. We want you to lose, period. There are options available, they have been mentioned many times. Some just don't want/can't be arsed to use them. Not enough info was given by the OP to determine what fully happened. A falcon excaped? Or a Falcon jammed them all down while his buddies slaughtered them like cows. As for the 'Option available' Fleet fit to counter one ship in EVE means you die. He is still dictating the battle.
Navii Mui The Iron Triangle	Posted - 2011.05.17 02:07:00 - [165] clearly people coming here to post when they qq'd over Falcon's punch :p
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.18 05:44:00 - [166] Edited by: Azhpol on 18/05/2011 05:44:27 Originally by: riddick Liddell Edited by: riddick Liddell on 17/05/2011 00:32:17 Originally by: Mag's Originally by: riddick Liddell the people trying to counter the Falcon want to fight, they don't want to run. CCP is telling them, that's nice. We want you to lose, period. There are options available, they have been mentioned many times. Some just don't want/can't be arsed to use them. Not enough info was given by the OP to determine what fully happened. A falcon excaped? Or a Falcon jammed them all down while his buddies slaughtered them like cows. As for the 'Option available' Fleet fit to counter one ship in EVE means you die. He is still dictating the battle. Oh, fianl point. U are right Meg's, there is a falcon killer. I'm just not offering it up yet. How is flying with an e-war ship of your own guaranteeing you die? The answer to falcon is either more falcon, arazu, or bomber. (watch him run if you launch a bomb at him ) Edit: The usual typo fixes :P ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.19 06:17:00 - [167] Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 ..... one ship just shouldnt be able to do that much. It's not just this time, we've seen a single falcon turn the tide every fight that they're included. And they're now in almost every fight for that reason. Aparantly the countermeasures dont work, either. A little math. With 2 ECCM's overloaded, and a full set of Low-grade grails, sensor strength is over 120. Permajammed. Yes, I know. They've already been nerfed. They aint as good as they were. But they're still overpowered. I know people will go against me for saying this, but they'll be the ones that wont undock without a falcon alt :D this
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.05.19 07:03:00 - [168] Nothing wrong with the falcon. Was already nerfed twice and it serves its purpose. I believe that projected eccm is more effective than eccm. Also the mistake was that your FC didn't immediately primary the Falcons and destroy them while they were jamming the Guardians....
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.05.19 07:08:00 - [169] why don't you people try a scorpion - it's an ewar battleship, cheap like a dominix. Loose one - no big deal, insurance pays for it. Stop whining, if you go gang on gang in low sec expect ewar. Nobody has cancelled e-war drones and sentries - both can fire even when parent ship is jammed. Either you all bring EC-600 or your BSes drop wardens - then send wardens after jammers. Problem Solved.
Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.05.19 09:50:00 - [170] Originally by: Outouchmatralala Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight. 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3 ..... one ship just shouldnt be able to do that much. It's not just this time, we've seen a single falcon turn the tide every fight that they're included. And they're now in almost every fight for that reason. Aparantly the countermeasures dont work, either. A little math. With 2 ECCM's overloaded, and a full set of Low-grade grails, sensor strength is over 120. Permajammed. Yes, I know. They've already been nerfed. They aint as good as they were. But they're still overpowered. I know people will go against me for saying this, but they'll be the ones that wont undock without a falcon alt :D this Except you be quoting lies. Try harder, please? 1/10
Ecky X SniggWaffe FREE KARTTOON NOW	Posted - 2011.05.19 10:26:00 - [171] I have a solution for you, PRIMARY the dang thing and problem solved. Falcons melt to a sneeze.
Merkus Letifer Gallente Everset Dropbears Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.05.19 10:52:00 - [172] Suggestion: No ECM restrictions on the upcoming Tournaments. ROOKS ROCK!!!! 0/
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.28 05:57:00 - [173] I agree with the op that falcons are too powerful
Demolishar	Posted - 2011.05.28 06:24:00 - [174] ECM drones are more of a problem tbh. They completely destroy solo pvp. You CANNOT kill someone with them alone, cram on as much ECCM as you want, you won't kill them unless you specifically fit to counter them with a smartbomb or get insanely lucky. You can't kill them with anything other than a smartbomb as they will recall them before you even lock them. They don't need nerfed so much as removed entirely.
Outouchmatralala	Posted - 2011.05.30 04:58:00 - [175] Originally by: Demolishar ECM drones are more of a problem tbh. They completely destroy solo pvp. You CANNOT kill someone with them alone, cram on as much ECCM as you want, you won't kill them unless you specifically fit to counter them with a smartbomb or get insanely lucky. You can't kill them with anything other than a smartbomb as they will recall them before you even lock them. They don't need nerfed so much as removed entirely. MORE excellent reasons to reassess the way ecm is applied in eve!!!

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