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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Kumafega
   |
Posted - 2011.05.19 23:05:00 -
[1]
Hi
Your t3 cruiser may jump from BO portal after patch?
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Quindaster
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Posted - 2011.05.19 23:10:00 -
[2]
No, it doesn't jump anymore with Covert Sybsystem.
CCP - return this possibility back idiots!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.19 23:25:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Quindaster
No, it doesn't jump anymore with Covert Subsystem.
Can somebody confirm this is true ?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Jack Tronic
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Posted - 2011.05.19 23:30:00 -
[4]
Confirming CCP's QA team is incompetent.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.19 23:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jack Tronic
Confirming CCP's QA team is incompetent.
What QA team ? 
Oh, you mean the handful of leftover former QA people with a horde of underpaid, underqualified and overworked interns ?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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FartMobile
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Posted - 2011.05.20 02:01:00 -
[6]
That's.... very annoying.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.05.20 02:11:00 -
[7]
Hello, anybody order a side of Version Control?
CCP loves to introduce old bugs into current patches. It is their way.
Perhaps the developers have been left to review their own code... 
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Bluetippedflyer
Invicta.
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Posted - 2011.05.20 04:32:00 -
[8]
ccp
WHY DON"T YOU JUST TAKE AWAY OUR JUMP GRAPHICS, OWAIT
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queen darkness
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Posted - 2011.05.20 04:32:00 -
[9]
04:27:13 Notify Your ship does not have the technology to utilize that jump portal
is what happens when a T3 with covop subsystem and covops cloak fitted tries to jump through now. tested and confirmed.
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Kyros Proxima
Caldari
Hanseatic League of Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.20 16:51:00 -
[10]
Fix Covert T3 Jump Harmonics please. Black ops is best ops.
****************************************
Navigare necesse est, vivere non necesse**************************************** |
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Kumafega
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Posted - 2011.05.20 18:53:00 -
[11]
Why we not see any comment from CCP???
If some people will lose all gang because of it bug???
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.20 19:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara
Hello, anybody order a side of Version Control?
CCP loves to introduce old bugs into current patches. It is their way.
Hope it's not Subversion. Refactoring + moves/renames + lots of branches + merging = missed merges.
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Outouchmatralala
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Posted - 2011.05.21 19:00:00 -
[13]
THIS SERCRETLY BOOSTS THE FALCON
nerf falcon.
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Niveon
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Posted - 2011.05.21 19:18:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Niveon on 21/05/2011 19:18:09
Originally by: stoicfaux
Hope it's not Subversion. Refactoring + moves/renames + lots of branches + merging = missed merges.
Newsflash: mergeinfo was added 2 years ago. |
KrustyKrab
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.05.21 20:39:00 -
[15]
Hello CCP. Please fix this. BlOps gangs are not working out too well without being able to jump the T3's...
Stuff goes here |
captain skinback
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Posted - 2011.05.21 21:19:00 -
[16]
are you ****ing kidding me
im 1 day away from using the portal
i wish i knew about this a few months ago before i started skilling for black ops
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Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.21 22:56:00 -
[17]
Sooo.. this confirmed or what? I have people to report to.
____________
Originally by: CCP Guard
Nobody gets to ruin EVE but us!
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Major Stallion
The Dark Horses.
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Posted - 2011.05.21 23:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kyros Proxima
Fix Covert T3 Jump Harmonics please. Black ops is best ops.
Not Always
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Outouchmatralala
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Posted - 2011.05.22 03:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Renan Ruivo
Sooo.. this confirmed or what? I have people to report to.
yes this is confirmed. T3's with cloaking subsystem are NOT able to jump thru blackops portals which is
r
e
t
a
r
d
e
d
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KrustyKrab
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.05.22 08:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: Kyros Proxima
Fix Covert T3 Jump Harmonics please. Black ops is best ops.
Not Always
lol @ black ops in .5 highsec
T3 still unable to jump through BlOps portal. CCP, what will it take to get some kind of reply about this?
Stuff goes here |
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.05.22 09:02:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Lady Spank on 22/05/2011 09:05:37
Oh dear... Thought you were talking about something else. Moved to avoid confusion!
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Dingding Wang
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Posted - 2011.05.22 10:18:00 -
[22]
And let T3s fit covert cynos while you're at it, it was initially promised but never delivered 
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Monstress
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Posted - 2011.05.22 11:05:00 -
[23]
This is very disappointing. It's the only reason I bought my Loki and use it at all.
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Gothikia
Regeneration
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Posted - 2011.05.22 11:11:00 -
[24]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara
Hello, anybody order a side of Version Control?
CCP loves to introduce old bugs into current patches. It is their way.
Hope it's not Subversion. Refactoring + moves/renames + lots of branches + merging = missed merges.
Almost as bad... perforce...
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2011.05.22 13:49:00 -
[25]
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.05.22 13:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
Thank you for your honesty.
***** Signature may appear without warning! *****
Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
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Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
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Posted - 2011.05.22 14:06:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
Did you also fix this yet?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1513943
-Darod- |
BLACK-STAR
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Posted - 2011.05.22 14:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
well congrats for you having the balls to admit it. your fellow employees have a hard time answering many things.
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.05.22 15:53:00 -
[29]
well since its been acknowledged and is being rectified I guess we can forgive you.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Silver Snake Enterprise
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Posted - 2011.05.22 16:25:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 22/05/2011 16:26:18
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
Are u saying here u are working on this?.
/me loves u if u do 
Fix Black Ops:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204416 |
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Quindaster
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Posted - 2011.05.22 19:35:00 -
[31]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
So, if this is just stupid mistake, I think we forgive you, and we will see in next patch you will give for Black Ops abbility to portal T3 Covert ships again.
And yes, for Covert ops T3 - you need to add abbility to fit covert cyno.
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Cunane Jeran
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.22 20:18:00 -
[32]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
Honest CCP = Best CCP
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Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
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Posted - 2011.05.22 21:18:00 -
[33]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
I don't see how lack of automatic test coverage is not QA fault. I can't understand how after 8 years you don't have tests systematically checking that kind of stuff, i.e. to cite some that made it past build and were deployed, some didn't pass SiSi but quite a few made it to TQ
- That only black ops can lock to covert cyno (carriers could at introduction)
- Exhaustive testing of ships that are authorized to (jump thru gate/jump thru BO portal/jump thru jumpbridge/jump thru titan portal)
- Exhaustive testing that you can assemble ships
- Exhaustive testing wrt fleet bonus and gang mods
That's just some examples... 8 years and still not testing basic gameplay. No one is asking you to automatically test massive fleet battles, but frankly some basic stuff we expect not making it in a broken state to TQ...
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Malen Nenokal
The Nightshift
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Posted - 2011.05.22 21:33:00 -
[34]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
This sort of transparency is really nice, keep it up.  |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.05.22 23:48:00 -
[35]
While the communication is impressive, I do wonder why QA doesn't have a separate check for code that has changed and, in turn, a means for performing regression testing on related features to ensure that stuff that works doesn't become stuff that's broke.
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Daneel Trevize
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.22 23:50:00 -
[36]
AFAIK the devblogs about lag hinted that they've only recently progressed any kind of automated client/bot-based testing. Who knows if individual functions and classes have automated unit testing, but there's certainly the vibe that the thing as a whole is/was only tested by someone sitting in front of a client and putting in the time and manual inputs. It sounded like a notable achievement that 100s of drakes could be made to shoot a POS until they reloaded, there's no ghost fleets being portaled about 24-7 on some spare server/in Jove space. |
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2011.05.23 00:55:00 -
[37]
Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 23/05/2011 00:57:22
Ok, so now we're getting into the ins and outs of what actually happened, here's some more insight.
First up, there was zero code touched in this change. We thought we would have to do some initially, but it turned out that the system as-was supported everything we wanted already. All I did was alter the value of some attributes on various types, which is (with a fair bit of hand-waving to avoid having to explain all the ins and outs of our internal tools) essentially just changing some values in the DB.
On all our jump-related stuff we have an attribute (ie, a DB value with a name) called "Jump Harmonics". If the Jump Harmonics on your ship is equal to or greater than the Jump Harmonics on the thing you're trying to jump with (cyno, jump bridge, jump portal etc), you're good, otherwise computer says no. Previously, we had covert-capable ships, modules etc set to 2 and everything else jump-related to 1 (IIRC). What we did was change covert to 5, most ships to 0, and ships with jump drives to -5, along with setting covert mods to 5, normal cynos to -5 and jump bridges/portals to 0. Following the equal-or-greater-than rule, this achieves everything we wanted just by changing a few dozen DB values. The choice of 5 and -5 was just to give us breathing room in the future in case we invented any more levels of granularity in between. (As you will see later, this last bit had unintended consequences.)
When I set this up I looked up everything that had Jump Harmonics set (fun fact, if you don't define an attribute it takes the default value, and the default was and still is 0, so most ships don't have it defined, making the result of this lookup easier to understand), and made changes accordingly, and re-verified it in the same way when I was done.
The reason T3s slipped through is because by default they have Jump Harmonics 0, as you'd expect, and it's set to 2 (well, 5 now that I've fixed it...) using a different attribute, which was necessary (and sensible) given the way we apply effects. This attribute obviously doesn't come up when you look at things with Jump Harmonics set, because it's not Jump Harmonics. Add to that the fact that using Covert Reconfiguration subsystems in conjunction with Black Ops is a fairly niche activity (we've all seen the Black Ops usage stats...), and the fact that Design had handed over an (incorrect) list of stuff that should and shouldn't work, and you end up with this sort of thing being missed on occasion.
So yeah, this isn't a case of an old code bug being reverted and not caught, it's a case of doing DB value updates and forgetting that certain things are special-cased. For the record, the original "fix" for letting Covert Reconfiguration work with Black Ops is still working on TQ right now - it's setting Jump Harmonics to 2, just like it was supposed to 
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Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Apolitical
One Power
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Posted - 2011.05.23 02:43:00 -
[38]
I always like a look behind the curtain. Thanks Greyscale.
====================
~/~ Sultan of Buruni |
Marlona Sky
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.05.23 04:49:00 -
[39]
So when can we expect T3's with covert sub systems to be allowed to take the covert jump bridge again? Or is it fixed already?
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KWyz
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Posted - 2011.05.23 07:57:00 -
[40]
Edited by: KWyz on 23/05/2011 07:58:42
CCP Greyscale said they had the problem fixed internally but he couldn't specify a date for when this fix would go live. I think it's because, from what i understand, he's not responsible for the whole patching process.
Just as everyone else,i enjoy the look behind the courtain, but i can't help feeling that you guys need some more people for these jobs. From what I understand, the work that needs to be done in order to enact any *large* changes is quite an endeavour, the volume of it is impressive, hence the lack of celerity in implementing a great deal of stuff. Not to mention the whole theorycrafting involved with ANY change in the game.
I appreciate all your hard work, but I think you guys need more skilled people like you to share some of the load.
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Niveon
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Posted - 2011.05.23 08:07:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Stuff about "Jump Harmonics" being a DB change and thus not checking the code
Sounds like the code's a bit too spaghetti for someone to easily do a grep for this variable and see the conditional statements around it that would have guided you to that special case other variable. |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Silver Snake Enterprise
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Posted - 2011.05.23 12:28:00 -
[42]
Could u share the black op usage stats with me? Out of your answere i can get that it is known how much ships and witch ship types are using the cov op bridge. I would like to process the stats in my fix black ops topic in the assembly hall. It would be much appriciated
Fix Black Ops:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204416 |
Captian Conrad
Minmatar
Empyrean Warriors
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Posted - 2011.05.23 12:46:00 -
[43]
Kudos to your honesty and balls sir!, very nice to see 
_________________________________
Looking for cool pilots, check our advert |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.05.23 12:59:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Othran on 23/05/2011 13:00:39
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
it's a case of doing DB value updates and forgetting that certain things are special-cased. For the record, the original "fix" for letting Covert Reconfiguration work with Black Ops is still working on TQ right now - it's setting Jump Harmonics to 2, just like it was supposed to
Mmmm surely it would be a good idea to require attributes to be defined before you can link/build it? ie you can't make the change without defining the associated attribute defaults.
I know its a monumental PITA but your post explains an awful lot about Eve and "retro" bugs.
Time to do surely before you inflict barbieville on us? 
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Ghurthe
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:17:00 -
[45]
Thank you greyscale! Though, still very frustrating.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Eternal Evocations
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:37:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Mendolus on 23/05/2011 13:40:17
Originally by: captain skinback
are you ****ing kidding me
im 1 day away from using the portal
i wish i knew about this a few months ago before i started skilling for black ops
If you've played for more than a couple years you should know by now that most of the time you train to something really useful, it gets nerfed or balanced before you get to it, why else would you be training it?
I finished Interceptor training six days *after* the nano nerf.
I only flew my Falcon for a couple weeks before the Falcon nerf.
I was two weeks away from a Golem after *months* of training when T3 came out.
I trained to T2 Large Pulse only to see Projectiles buffed to epic levels of win.
And on and on and on...
About halfway in, around the time I was training to a Golem, I stopped worrying about it. I play to have fun, whether the thing I spend months training to gets bent over and reamed or not.
They will fix T3 jump potential eventually, until then, relax! 
---------------------------------
It seems quoting the CSM minutes in your signature is inappropriate content! Hurr hurr. |
The R00k
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Posted - 2011.05.23 17:09:00 -
[47]
So we will soon be able to jump the t3 covops sub system? Does this also mean we will be able to light cov ops cynos from the covert ss?
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.24 02:18:00 -
[48]
Gotta say, wonderful logic at CCP.
Ram through a 0.0 nerf, even though there are 100 pages of screaming. Nope, CCP is going to make it happen. Rams it through with 2 weeks notice.
Wreck man-years of work setting up jump bridge networks on a whim, ram that change through with one week's notice.
Screw up something in the game, admit it is a screw-up, then say, "we will get around to fixing it sometime".
Awesome customer service CCP.
And yeah, I am bitter.
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Ketton
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Posted - 2011.05.25 05:34:00 -
[49]
Any specific info on when this will be fixed then?
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ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.25 08:36:00 -
[50]
*points at OP Gurista jamming boost
Sometime end of this summer, I guess.
______________
Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦
Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.`
Mal-¦Aint we just.¦ |
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.05.25 09:01:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha
Gotta say, wonderful logic at CCP.
Ram through a 0.0 nerf, even though there are 100 pages of screaming. Nope, CCP is going to make it happen. Rams it through with 2 weeks notice.
Wreck man-years of work setting up jump bridge networks on a whim, ram that change through with one week's notice.
Screw up something in the game, admit it is a screw-up, then say, "we will get around to fixing it sometime".
Awesome customer service CCP.
And yeah, I am bitter.
Comparing this bug to a couple fixes to how 0.0 works is hardly the same thing. The 0.0 fixes are intentional. And the 100 pages of tears your talking about? Delicious!!!
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hired goon
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Posted - 2011.05.25 10:27:00 -
[52]
Honest communication from CCP Grayscale again demonstrates CCP superiority
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Forumena Altair
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Posted - 2011.05.25 11:54:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Forumena Altair on 25/05/2011 11:57:49
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 23/05/2011 00:57:22
Ok, so now we're getting into the ins and outs of what actually happened, here's some more insight.
First up, there was zero code touched in this change. We thought we would have to do some initially, but it turned out that the system as-was supported everything we wanted already. All I did was alter the value of some attributes on various types, which is (with a fair bit of hand-waving to avoid having to explain all the ins and outs of our internal tools) essentially just changing some values in the DB.
On all our jump-related stuff we have an attribute (ie, a DB value with a name) called "Jump Harmonics". If the Jump Harmonics on your ship is equal to or greater than the Jump Harmonics on the thing you're trying to jump with (cyno, jump bridge, jump portal etc), you're good, otherwise computer says no. Previously, we had covert-capable ships, modules etc set to 2 and everything else jump-related to 1 (IIRC). What we did was change covert to 5, most ships to 0, and ships with jump drives to -5, along with setting covert mods to 5, normal cynos to -5 and jump bridges/portals to 0. Following the equal-or-greater-than rule, this achieves everything we wanted just by changing a few dozen DB values. The choice of 5 and -5 was just to give us breathing room in the future in case we invented any more levels of granularity in between. (As you will see later, this last bit had unintended consequences.)
When I set this up I looked up everything that had Jump Harmonics set (fun fact, if you don't define an attribute it takes the default value, and the default was and still is 0, so most ships don't have it defined, making the result of this lookup easier to understand), and made changes accordingly, and re-verified it in the same way when I was done.
The reason T3s slipped through is because by default they have Jump Harmonics 0, as you'd expect, and it's set to 2 (well, 5 now that I've fixed it...) using a different attribute, which was necessary (and sensible) given the way we apply effects. This attribute obviously doesn't come up when you look at things with Jump Harmonics set, because it's not Jump Harmonics. Add to that the fact that using Covert Reconfiguration subsystems in conjunction with Black Ops is a fairly niche activity (we've all seen the Black Ops usage stats...), and the fact that Design had handed over an (incorrect) list of stuff that should and shouldn't work, and you end up with this sort of thing being missed on occasion.
So yeah, this isn't a case of an old code bug being reverted and not caught, it's a case of doing DB value updates and forgetting that certain things are special-cased. For the record, the original "fix" for letting Covert Reconfiguration work with Black Ops is still working on TQ right now - it's setting Jump Harmonics to 2, just like it was supposed to
So if jump harmonics is a simple DB value that can be modified by changing a subsystem, it shouldn't be a huge leap to assume that ships can or cannot use Covert Cyno Generators is also a similar DB value that can be modified via subsystem.
And if that's the case, When the T3 covert subsystem was originally introduced it was supposed to be able to use the Covert Cyno Generator as shown here :
Why did you guys the delete the description in a patch instead of "fixing the bug" and claming this line of crap? :
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
we actually don't mind the subsystem having the ability to fit a covert cyno. The issue we encountered was our use of new fitting restrictions was never really meant for subsystems and we have to wait for code changes to allow that happen or revert the covert cyno back to using a good old cpu based fitting restriction.
The "niche" players haven't forgot about that. 
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VIP Ares
Minmatar
BALKAN EXPRESS
HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.05.25 13:03:00 -
[54]
Cheers for honesty. At least for me - it is easier to live (play) with bugs that way.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.05.25 13:44:00 -
[55]
would be cool if you were honest more often.
moreover as you can see ;
* if you don't answer, or say no : mass forum whine
* if you answer, even saying your guilty : not much whine
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Tao Zun
The Roaches
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Posted - 2011.05.28 12:44:00 -
[56]
Bump so more attention can be paid, so is there really no way possible to give us a general time frame on when this will fix itself? I don't think CCP realizes that T3s truly make the black ops work. They provide the vast majority for a normal fleets DPS. And black ops have only recently gained a lot of popularity because of the t3s, and with the growing number of players in EVE maybe it is something ccp should take another look at.
black ops is best ops
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.05.29 18:29:00 -
[57]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
That's not a QA issue, it's a design issue - I forgot about covops subsystems when I was speccing out the changes, and the "exhaustive" list I gave our testers didn't include them. There's a boring technical reason why I didn't catch it in review but essentially this is entirely my fault. I've just fixed it internally, but I can't guarantee when exactly it will hit TQ, sorry.
Do you work alone at CCP? I would like to use the word re+tard here, because man, you people are simply so embarrassingly bad at anything approaching competence it's just not funny. Always big words about how awesome, wise, mystical etc you are until the sun rises and reality hits you in the face at 200kph.
Morons.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.05.29 18:34:00 -
[58]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 23/05/2011 00:57:22
Ok, so now we're getting into the ins and outs of what actually happened, here's some more insight.
First up, there was zero code touched in this change. We thought we would have to do some initially, but it turned out that the system as-was supported everything we wanted already. All I did was alter the value of some attributes on various types, which is (with a fair bit of hand-waving to avoid having to explain all the ins and outs of our internal tools) essentially just changing some values in the DB.
On all our jump-related stuff we have an attribute (ie, a DB value with a name) called "Jump Harmonics". If the Jump Harmonics on your ship is equal to or greater than the Jump Harmonics on the thing you're trying to jump with (cyno, jump bridge, jump portal etc), you're good, otherwise computer says no. Previously, we had covert-capable ships, modules etc set to 2 and everything else jump-related to 1 (IIRC). What we did was change covert to 5, most ships to 0, and ships with jump drives to -5, along with setting covert mods to 5, normal cynos to -5 and jump bridges/portals to 0. Following the equal-or-greater-than rule, this achieves everything we wanted just by changing a few dozen DB values. The choice of 5 and -5 was just to give us breathing room in the future in case we invented any more levels of granularity in between. (As you will see later, this last bit had unintended consequences.)
When I set this up I looked up everything that had Jump Harmonics set (fun fact, if you don't define an attribute it takes the default value, and the default was and still is 0, so most ships don't have it defined, making the result of this lookup easier to understand), and made changes accordingly, and re-verified it in the same way when I was done.
The reason T3s slipped through is because by default they have Jump Harmonics 0, as you'd expect, and it's set to 2 (well, 5 now that I've fixed it...) using a different attribute, which was necessary (and sensible) given the way we apply effects. This attribute obviously doesn't come up when you look at things with Jump Harmonics set, because it's not Jump Harmonics. Add to that the fact that using Covert Reconfiguration subsystems in conjunction with Black Ops is a fairly niche activity (we've all seen the Black Ops usage stats...), and the fact that Design had handed over an (incorrect) list of stuff that should and shouldn't work, and you end up with this sort of thing being missed on occasion.
So yeah, this isn't a case of an old code bug being reverted and not caught, it's a case of doing DB value updates and forgetting that certain things are special-cased. For the record, the original "fix" for letting Covert Reconfiguration work with Black Ops is still working on TQ right now - it's setting Jump Harmonics to 2, just like it was supposed to
Again, do you work alone? Is actual communication forbidden within CCP, or is continually making really pathetically poor excuses for not having any internal communication process the way you think CCP will succeed as a company?
Also, wasn't Chronotis the one in charge of the web team disaster? Wasn't it enough for him to ruin that and make poor excuses there?
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.05.29 18:46:00 -
[59]
more :excellence: in action.
~~~
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Quindaster
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Posted - 2011.05.30 15:28:00 -
[60]
New patch, new patch notes and...NOTHING about Black Ops and T3 !
Only idiotic abbility for avatars in dock and on ships and useless trash.
Return back abbility for Black Ops and T3 use portal!
I don't want to sit in dock for weeks and wait till you return that you crashed in last useless patch!
I don't need NEW, nothing new in patches, I don't neew incarna or any other stupid patch!
Only return T3 to jump to BO portal!
And forget about patches after it!
No more patch - you will crash something usefull and add useless things again!
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pmchem
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.30 15:46:00 -
[61]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Add to that the fact that using Covert Reconfiguration subsystems in conjunction with Black Ops is a fairly niche activity (we've all seen the Black Ops usage stats...),
The Black Ops usage stats -- in fact, all ship usage stats in the QEN -- are crap. Useless data. A snapshot of 'ships people are in' at any given time which includes every single low sp cyno/scout/market alt is totally useless. That's why you have the Echelon coming in at the #5 most used ship in QEN 4. What a joke! You put out a 'report' like that and everyone knows it has ZERO credibility.
People get into Black Ops, use them, then dock them and get into something else, and spin station in something else. They are careful with these 3/4 billion-isk cloaking, bridging, battleships and they rarely die. But they are used.
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.05.30 15:54:00 -
[62]
Originally by: pmchem
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Add to that the fact that using Covert Reconfiguration subsystems in conjunction with Black Ops is a fairly niche activity (we've all seen the Black Ops usage stats...),
The Black Ops usage stats -- in fact, all ship usage stats in the QEN -- are crap. Useless data. A snapshot of 'ships people are in' at any given time which includes every single low sp cyno/scout/market alt is totally useless. That's why you have the Echelon coming in at the #5 most used ship in QEN 4. What a joke! You put out a 'report' like that and everyone knows it has ZERO credibility.
People get into Black Ops, use them, then dock them and get into something else, and spin station in something else. They are careful with these 3/4 billion-isk cloaking, bridging, battleships and they rarely die. But they are used.
Absolutely this.
~~~
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Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.02 01:14:00 -
[63]
Btw this was fixed in 1.6.1whatever, tested as of 20minutes ago and T3 are once again bridgable.
Also for the person who linked my screenshot about T3 Covert Cyno's, it is yet it isn't really a db attribute fix thing. They changed the Covert Cyno fitting requirement to "can be fitted to: x, y, z" instead of the old CPU based requirement (like Cov Ops Cloaks requiring 5k CPU and then giving certain ships bonuses to reduce it down to 0 CPU). However they can't add "Covert T3" to the ships that can fit the Cov Cyno as "Covert T3" is not a ship class. So basically any T3 would be able to fit it, or none of them can, as far as current coding limitations are concerned.
It should be a simple coding fix to allow them, either reverting back to the old CPU based fitting req or adding a new ship class "Covert T3" and having the Covert Reconfig sub-system, when fitted, change the T3 from T3 to "Covert T3", but it's more resources than they really care to commit to it.
btw that bug report of mine that you linked to is 2+ years old, and i'm betting it'll be 2 more years before they get around to fixing it, so i'd pretty much just let it go.
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aetherguy881
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.02 01:24:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Quindaster
CCP - return this possibility back idiots!
Can someone confirm this?
I dunno why they changed this, I didn't even know that the change had been made. But then again, if I flew T3's...
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Always remember this about EVE:
Life is cheap, or 15 bucks a month. |
Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.02 01:30:00 -
[65]
Scroll up all of 1 post.
btw thank you CCP for acknowledging the mistake, coming out and admitting what went wrong, fixing it, and then releasing said fix in a timely manner (for CCP)
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Quindaster
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Posted - 2011.06.02 10:26:00 -
[66]
Confirm,
in patch 1.61 CCP have repaired this bug and T3 covert ships can jump trough Black Ops portal!
Thank you CCP !
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Keiko Shizuka
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Posted - 2011.06.02 10:42:00 -
[67]
Honest, transparent reply from CCP results in:
Goodwill: +11 points
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