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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.30 15:02:00 -
[1]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 30/05/2011 15:06:02
Simple test on if they are OP.
This hypothetical is assuming you will have speced for said ships since you made your character before those that come in saying dumb things like "I only fly Caldari" and all that jazz. Also "but it cant break a drakes tank" is another stupid point since that means that game became nothing but drakes and cynabals which is just as flipping bad.
If in the ship classes frig, cruiser, battleship, your character can only fly one ship of that class and that ship is the only ship you will ever be able to fly, bother pve and pvp. Which ship do you choose.
If you answer anything other then the dramiel, cynabal, Machariel you are either a liar or and idiot.
If you are a fool to pick any other ship then said ship is overpowered. If every other choice is subpar and one obviously stands on top in all situations its Overpowered.
They have tank, dps, speed, drones, agility. They have no solid weakness or shortfall.
Price is not a good argument point since even for the price they are OP. If the ships cost three to five times what they are now maybe you have a valid point. Same concepts applies to capitals.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:10:00 -
[2]
Originally by: slightly sillydude Machs have crap targeting range. Two Lachesis and two Huggins should eat them for lunch. Throw in a curse for extra lolz.
It only takes 5 tech 2 ships to weaken it enough to be able to deal with it.......
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:26:00 -
[3]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 30/05/2011 16:27:21
Originally by: slightly sillydude
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: slightly sillydude Machs have crap targeting range. Two Lachesis and two Huggins should eat them for lunch. Throw in a curse for extra lolz.
It only takes 5 tech 2 ships to weaken it enough to be able to deal with it.......
Well, thats to deal with two of them, and you don't need the curse. Two Tech 2 ships is really not an unreasonable request to deal with a Mach.
Reread you posts, they make no sense. Are you talking about dealing with two machs or only using two ships to deal with them;which is unlikely.
Originally by: Straight Edged The weakness of machariels, is they get ****d very very very hard by abaddon/recon blobs. As long as you blob, the mach dies.
Both cost effectively and overpoweringly.
They are also hardly cost effective against anything. It will die almost regardless what your fleet blob composition is. as long as theres recons
You are just completely delusional.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 01:38:00 -
[4]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 01:38:18
Originally by: mama guru Problem is most people fight machariels like ******s. They see the machariels at 50km off the gate then they charge them like lemmings with their t2 frigs/dramiels/dictors or whatever and wonder why they just lost 5 support about 30 seconds later.
A single curse can all but nullify a machs dps, a pair of scimitars will save your heavy tackler etc. Think a little, you do not need to permajam a ship and put 3 webbers on it to SURVIVE. Catching it is another story however.
Machariels are the best kiting ships in the game and the more of them deployed the deadlier they become. 5+ machs and you better have titans or run the **** away cause you will not catch them if they are led by a competent FC.
You just make the point more and more that they are Over powered. Re-Read your post and think about how much effort it takes to take on a mach. Its not just the people suck at fighting them.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 05:22:00 -
[5]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 05:23:24
Originally by: Straight Edged As i said again. The weakness of machariels, is they get F'd very very very hard by abaddon/recon blobs. As long as you blob, the mach dies.
Even if the numbers are equal, regardless if its arty vs tachy or ac vs pulse, when you pit a thousand to a thousand, the machariel side is going to cry as they get bricked and stoned hard.
A ship that cant survive in blobs = bad ship.
You cant be expecting anyone to take your seriously after this post. Mach gang with its own RR makes your claim silly.
Even more that you imply machs do not work well in gangs. You are clearly insane with the ramblings you are putting forth.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: McBorsk so get a bloody mach? what is with all this whining about op this and op that?
Your answer is to simply have everyone in the same ship because its that good....that of course being the very reason its broken after all.
Originally by: Straight Edged No. im just saying, a ship that is good at an inferior role is not an overpowered ship.
For example, Hulk is the absolute perfect best ship at mining. however it gets killed by abaddon blobs. No one is going to say hulk is overpowered?
Now replace hulk with mach. mining with small gang
Machariel is the absolute perfect best ship at small gangs. however it gets killed by abaddon blobs. Will you say mach is overpowered?
Your example and your logic are as ******ed as you are. Please stop posting before you make everyone reading your posts lose more brain cells with your infections ******ation.
Really blobs? The machs will alpha your abaddons faster then you can alpha theirs especially when its in the 1000s.
Originally by: Lady Skank
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: Lady Skank Try chasing them off with a Bhaalgorn, they will either not engage at all or die if they do and its not like you don't have the ISK value of 5 recons and w/e else you have on the field.
This man knows. OP is too noob to know the power of the Bhaalgorn.
People still cant see it and are rambling about what type of blob you need when all you need to deal with a pair of nano machs is a single Bhaalgorn.
What ****** mach pilots are you talking about that they would be caught by a slow as molasses Bhaalgorn. They can easily stay out of range of its neuts and webs and rip it up.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:34:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Common Origin Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05
When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.
I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.
You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.
Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 18:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Straight Edged why are you guys hurting your heads anyways.
Most of the time, its simply like this.
Mach jumps the gate/warps in. a couple hundred baddons lock in 4 seconds. POP. 1M-3M alpha of hot juicy lasers. Repeat.
So you set up a perfect situation where the mach has to warp to you...........get out and stop posting your fail.
No one would do what you just suggested BTW.
Originally by: Common Origin
You like making stuff up, don't you? Oh yeah, that's because your gang get pwned by 2 machs, out of all things. Where do you point your directionals and how fast do you cycle in the middle of combat. And how do you actually get out of range while tangling with the tackler he's warping to? Try the stuff you're sprewing before opening your mouth.
I tangle with Machs every day FYI.
Looked you up on BC. Why are you even posting again? You have no reason or experience worth a snot that gives you any authority to say a damn thing.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 18:38:00 -
[9]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Common Origin Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05
When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.
I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.
You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.
Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.
If the Mach wants to keep the bhaalg warp disrupted, it's got to fight in the bhaalg's neut and web range. So yea dead mach. Quit being stupid.
Cause as we all know, mach pilots dont use Booster Alts and faction points that put them far outside web and neut range. Herp derp, of course they do. Even and overheated tech 2 point puts them outside web and neut range even worse with a faction point paired with a boosting alt.
The only one being stupid here is the name of the person quoted.
Again another person that has yet to fight actually fight a mach pilot.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 19:59:00 -
[10]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:04:54
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Again you are being as stupid as hell, anything a mach pilot would do, a bhaalg pilot would also do. I use the same boosting alts/faction modules, long range points on both my bhalg and Mach. Looks like you've not fought a good Bhaalg pilot. Herp Derp? ******.
A Bhaal pilot getting extra range on a point wont help him neut and web the target 40km away. Sorry dude you fail at understanding the capabilities of the mods and ships involved.
Range of faction point with boost > web range with boost and range of neuts. You might tag it with the webs but the neuts wont reach it so it will be able to MWD outside your range and be faster then your bhaall even webbed.
You guys just suck its not theory.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:06:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?
You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.
Mach wins.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:20:00 -
[12]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:21:10
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 20:15:44
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?
You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.
Mach wins.
No I think he is pointing out that the Machariel needs an loki booster to have a chance of forcing an unboosted bhaalgorn off the field.
No I was responding to the fact he said a Bhaal would have a booster as well. A MWD fit mach can keep range even when webbed by Bhaal. It can stay outside the 30km range of the bhaal with faction neuts. It gets a range bonus to webs not the speed killing bonus. Bhaals are very slow.
Show me the piles KMs of all the machs being killed by Bhaals.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Show me the piles of KMs of Machs killng Bhaals. If it's coming down to a Mach's tank vs a bhaalg's tank, bhaalg is definitely going to win, especially since the bhaalg pilot is going to be fielding a slaveset. I think you'd have to admit that. A Mach's shield tank is dodgy at best with a nice increased sig radius.
Clearly you dont PvP otherwise you would realize how stupid this post was. A Mach that can stay outside your neut range and has you pointed and can laugh at your attempts to close even double webbed if you are off gate your bhaal is dead. Bhaals are for taking out carriers. If you cant neut it you wont beat its tank 1v1. But lets not ignore the fact almost all fights are never 1v1. And a mach can go in kill things and GTFO.
Mach vs a gang = it kills a bunch of that gang and gets away Bhaal vs a gang = it dies in a fire
Originally by: Korg Leaf
He actually said the bhaalgorn in his example doesnt have booster alt, with a booster alt the web gets out to 50km and the machariel even boosted cant point the bhallgorn outside of this so the machariel dies as its cant dictate range and cant win the tank/gank race against a bhaalgorn.
50km without booster alt? where do I get this magical Bhaal or is it an officer mod I dont know about being used? Im looking at 36km with overheat with Fed webs.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:49:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Korg Leaf
He actually said the bhaalgorn in his example doesnt have booster alt, with a booster alt the web gets out to 50km and the machariel even boosted cant point the bhallgorn outside of this so the machariel dies as its cant dictate range and cant win the tank/gank race against a bhaalgorn.
50km without booster alt? where do I get this magical Bhaal or is it an officer mod I dont know about being used? Im looking at 36km with overheat with Fed webs.
I bolded the part you didnt read, he said without the booster you get 30kmish without heat. I said with a booster alt you get 50km
Then we can both look foolish cause you ignore that a MWD mach even double webbed with booster is faster then a Bhaalgorn and still wins the range dictation. Not to mention overheating the MWD. Not to mention implants and boosters that might be employed.
And that a reality where the Bhaal comes off gate or station to get the mach is pretty much certain to get the Bhaal killed.
The fact you Have to go to such theory crafter Olympic levels is telling in how Overpowered it is.
It takes huge efforts and multiple people to maybe kill one mach. Its fairly easy in comparison to kill a Bhallgorn.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 31/05/2011 20:49:08
I have a 6:1 k/d ratio and you have a 4:1, if youa re going to make lame comments, I'll make one back and say that I am a better pvper based on kills over 1k.
A double webbed Mach is dead vs a slaveset bhaalg no questions. Not sure how you are even arguing this logically.
You really want to brag about the fact you are a carebare engaging in highsec ganks and killing noobships and pods left and right. Anyone that looks at my KB vs yours can see you are full of it. Your Kill stats are the stuff on the bottom of someones shoe.
Come to lowsec Ill show you what pvp is.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Double webbed mach with low grade snakes and a single nano goes 524m/s with heat. A bhaalgorn goes 1175m/s with heat not sure how the mach dictates range there but im glad you admit that the mach cant point a bhaalgorn outside of its web range.
I havent had to theory craft that much, I have just repeated the same point for 6-7 posts whilst you stick your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand.
In the situation described in the OP a single bhaalgorn would solve his issue, which is why I believe they were mentioned in the first place.
And as for overpowered in some situations that would look like its the case, in others the machariel either gets butt ****d or runs
Link the fit you are EFTing and implants used.
Cause its clear you went and used a booster and implants no one would use with a bhaal to get that speed. Or a fit no one would use just cause you hate losing the argument. And you made sure not to use the Optimal set up a Mach would use to make the lie about your point true.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:21:00 -
[17]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:24:42
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:02:35
Originally by: RougeOperator
[Machariel, New Setup 1] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5
[Bhaalgorn, New Setup 1] Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Imperial Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800
Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
Obviously not bothered on super t2 rigging and stuff, low grade snakes on the machariel.
edit. no booster on either, all lvl 5 character used
Machariel speed before web - 2738m/s with heat After first web - 1095m/s with heat After second web - 524m/s with heat
Im still just repeating the same points over and over
Again NO booster on machariel means you arnt doing the situation I have repeatedly laid out. Also Zors Hyperlink should be part of your speed set in that calculation. Heat speed should be over 3300.
Also 1 armor plate? wtf are you doing! That thing will get ripped up with only one plate.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:30:00 -
[18]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:31:24
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator
You don't even have a BS kill on your most recent page. looking over your last30 kills its all t1 battlecruisers, caracals, and thrashers/coercers. You're trying to tell me you are some sort of elite pvp'er? just stfu.
Yeah those are a whole bunch less dangerous then noob ships and capsules in high sec.
He mad!
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:37:00 -
[19]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:39:03 Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:37:56
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:32:35
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:24:42
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:02:35
Originally by: RougeOperator fits
Again NO booster on machariel means you arnt doing the situation I have repeatedly laid out. Also Zors Hyperlink should be part of your speed set in that calculation. Heat speed should be over 3300.
Also 1 armor plate? wtf are you doing! That thing will get ripped up with only one plate.
With three plates the bhaalgorns overheated speed drops to 1120m/s and with the zor's implant on the Machariel its speed jumps to 548m/s.
Seeing as it was a discussion about range dictation the tanks are irrelevant really (plates I admit do alter things LOADS). With a booster on the Machariel, it makes its A. less cap stable and B. lowers the cap independant tank (buffer), I was trying to give the Machariel a chance in the whole neuting game.
So with making the changes you recommend, the range dictation argument changed by exactly nothing.
BTW to get a speed above 3300m/s you need High grade snakes and dual nanos and even then dual webbed you are slower than a triple plated bhaalgorn. Admittedly the difference is only 500m/s in that situation.
One nano and low grade snake gets you over 3350 with booster. You are doing 3600 with high grades with booster. By time your Bhaal fit catches up its already dead vs most Mach fits and tactics I have faced. Even worse if its two.
Most mach pilots use and alt booster. Not using them in most calculations is like not including tackle on a PvP rifter. Its the reality.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: RougeOperator quotes
With a booster, low grades and a single nano you top out at 3600m/s overheated, this is all based the copy of eft I just downloaded from the forum.
Even if the mach was going over 5km/s it would still be slower than the triple plated bhaalgorn when double webbed. This bhaalgorn also has the range to start damaging the machariel from inside its web range (regardless of boosters) and has roughly 200k ehp(with low grade slaves and two plates) buffer you would need to chew through before it covers the 6-20km (depending on whether there are boosters involved or not) to get you into neut range then your tank disappears.
With a double plate and slaves the bhaalgorns tank is at roughly 201k ehp and 700dps with scorch, once it dual webs the Machariel its faster (the machariel would need to be faster than it can actually be to still be faster) then the Machariel would have to hope its tank holds long enough for it to chew through the Bhaalgorns buffer before the Bhaalgorn gets the Machariel into its Neut range, this could be anywhere from 6km to 20km but its still unlikely to happen.
The mach gets to decide if he fights or not. He also has plenty of time to get away if webbed out to 50km and take shots at the bhaal to see how tough the tank is. He just warps off if its too tough.
Look Rep fleet warp diruptor has a 45 km rang boosted and over heated. While the Bhaal in the situation of jumping into the mach that isnt boosted has a range of 36 with its unboosted webs. It just dies.
But the point remains that the Bhaal could never solo it as the only way it can catch it is if something else ties down the mach so it can get in range. The Bhaal just is not the answer. The only answer is to blob the hell out of them while losing two or three ships in the process. Many times they still get away.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 22:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Wardec me if you are any kind of a pvper, see how it goes. Are you blind in not seeing wormhole kills? Have you ever wardecced an alliance with a one man corp? Have you ever noticed that you spelt Rogue incorrectly? I'm guessing the answer is no to all three. With over 1000+ kills, I have EVERY right to comment on any pvp discussion whatsoever. Especially since the majority of my kills are solo, and VS expensive ships unlike your mutliple t1 BC kills/destroyer kills.
Pure delusion.
I dont have to wardec you if you just come to low sec, ill make a note to shoot you when you do. OH right thats risky, cant have that.You gots to keep soloing mission runners right!
Yeah cheap stuff all those carrier and faction ship and t2 kills im on are cheap.
The ridiculousness of your comments is off the charts.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 23:35:00 -
[22]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 23:41:00
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
lol look who is mad. Listen, i'm not even kidding around, look at your kills, all t1 BC, and destroyers while i am solo killing golems abbadons and god knows what else. Proof is in the killmails dude. Not only that, but I dont think I see a single solo kill on there, you are too afraid to do it, zero balls. I've done lowsec, i've done nullsec, and the sweetest tears are in empire. The noobs always want ships nerfed and whine about this and that. Don't know why i bother.
LAWL just checked BC, you fly prophecies and ravens. Holy horrible, no wonder you have no interaction with faction BS unless they are killing you. Do you even own one?
If you look now you will see the POS We killed. Everyone will look and compare our KBs and laugh their asses off at what you are spewing.
You saying me killing BCs is somehow bad is funny as hell to anyone that actually does real PvP. You see Im no longer actually talking to you. Im talking to the audience that is reading your posts and following them as small as they may be. Since talking to you is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.01 00:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Voith
Originally by: Goose99 5 100mil t2 hac/recons = 500 mil 2 1bil Mach = 2 bil
That's actually pretty good efficiency. What is there to whine about again?
This type of idiocy is what gave us super caps.
I actually hinted about that very point in my first post.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.01 02:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran This guy posting about how a Macherial can kill a Bhaalgorn is pretty funny, The fact that the Mach would be double webbed and slower than the Bhaalgorn and the fact that the Mach cannot run its MWD for long under the Bhaals neuts seems to completely escape him.
So do you normally go about posting without reading and understanding the situation and what has been talked about?
I hope not its shows a lack of intelligence.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.01 04:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran on 01/06/2011 02:43:24
Originally by: RougeOperator I hope not its shows a lack of intelligence.
Irony ITP.
EDIT
The content of the posting is pretty clear, you are either stupid or trolling and claiming that a Bhaalgorn is not a good counter for a Macherial and having lost the logical argument you have resorted to hurf blurfing about kill boards and other types of straw manning.
I think perhaps that I have a better grasp of whats going on in this thread than you have.
At least know what strawman means before you toss it around.
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