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Mr Peanut420
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.05.31 03:14:00 -
[1]
Have hope people of New Eden, with the end of the NC comes the end of the game breaking overpowered Supercarrier. CCP will nerf them as soon as the NC is destroyed (which was their goal with the anom nerf also, I mean, really, destroying legitimate income while leaving botting income, comeon).
The Supercarrier is far out of step with the very fine EVE doctrine of diminishing marginal returns. This is where as things get more expensive, the increased value gets less and less. This is not true of supercarriers. In properly bonused form a supercarrier has more effective hit points than the combined total EHP of a full fleet (255) of equally well bonused abaddons. But the abaddons cost 4 times more than the supercarrier. With unrestricted remote repping a good size force of supercarriers can survive literally any assault from a subcap/regular cap fleet that the node can support. This means nothing from empire can ever challenge existing supercapital fleets, no matter what happens.
Supercarriers are the primary tool of SOV warfare, so nothing out of empire can ever challenge a large supercarrier force for SOV. This means the dominate force in 0.0 can impose a complete monopoly on Supercapital construction. So nothing out of empire will ever be able to build a supercapital force to challenge existing ones. This is the kind of elite risk free PVP that drives paying players away and it will not continue after CCP gets what they want (NC gone).
Here are the changes that will go into effect:
Fighter bombers will no longer be able to engage SOV structures, dreads will have a role again, and supercarriers will become a counter rather than an invasion tool in their own right.
Fighter bombers will require an active siege module for deployment, no more shoot and scoot, no more remote rep.
Fighter bombers effectiveness against subcaps will be diminished by a further 50%, making it necessary and beneficial for supercarriers to switch out to normal fighters in order to engage subcaps.
Total effective hitpoints will be reduced by 20%, they will still be very hard to kill, but somewhat more vulnerable when combined with the other drawbacks.
They will still be very powerful and useful ships, but they will no longer be the only ship that matters.
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Tyme Xandr
Gallente Stones Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 04:49:00 -
[2]
Whered u get that info from?
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kerradeph
Gallente Penumbra Military Industrial Complex
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Posted - 2011.05.31 05:57:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tyme Xandr Whered u get that info from?
ya, I have to ask that too. and I highly doubt CCP has something so much against NC that they would heavily alter the mechanics just to get rid of a group of well organized players(if you can call NC well organized).
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King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
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Posted - 2011.05.31 06:49:00 -
[4]
I call troll. That said his ideas for changing them would be a pretty sound nerf. I don't support the siege like module but it's worth noting I think the siege mod on dreads should also vanish. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Heidi Mount
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Posted - 2011.05.31 07:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mr Peanut420 Have hope people of New Eden, with the end of the NC comes the end of the game breaking overpowered Supercarrier. CCP will nerf them as soon as the NC is destroyed (which was their goal with the anom nerf also, I mean, really, destroying legitimate income while leaving botting income, comeon).
The Supercarrier is far out of step with the very fine EVE doctrine of diminishing marginal returns. This is where as things get more expensive, the increased value gets less and less. This is not true of supercarriers. In properly bonused form a supercarrier has more effective hit points than the combined total EHP of a full fleet (255) of equally well bonused abaddons. But the abaddons cost 4 times more than the supercarrier. With unrestricted remote repping a good size force of supercarriers can survive literally any assault from a subcap/regular cap fleet that the node can support. This means nothing from empire can ever challenge existing supercapital fleets, no matter what happens.
Supercarriers are the primary tool of SOV warfare, so nothing out of empire can ever challenge a large supercarrier force for SOV. This means the dominate force in 0.0 can impose a complete monopoly on Supercapital construction. So nothing out of empire will ever be able to build a supercapital force to challenge existing ones. This is the kind of elite risk free PVP that drives paying players away and it will not continue after CCP gets what they want (NC gone).
Here are the changes that will go into effect:
Fighter bombers will no longer be able to engage SOV structures, dreads will have a role again, and supercarriers will become a counter rather than an invasion tool in their own right.
Fighter bombers will require an active siege module for deployment, no more shoot and scoot, no more remote rep.
Fighter bombers effectiveness against subcaps will be diminished by a further 50%, making it necessary and beneficial for supercarriers to switch out to normal fighters in order to engage subcaps.
Total effective hitpoints will be reduced by 20%, they will still be very hard to kill, but somewhat more vulnerable when combined with the other drawbacks.
They will still be very powerful and useful ships, but they will no longer be the only ship that matters.
Not true. You can accumulate a massive capital in empire and buy a bunch of super carriers, and sneak up on them unsuspectingly! Slaves do need a nerf though.
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Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2011.05.31 08:16:00 -
[6]
Buy 200 supercarriers without someone noticing? Good luck.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.05.31 09:03:00 -
[7]
yeah, supercarriers were ok as long as the NC could throw them on everyone when there was no reasonable force being able to counter their blob. Now, a counterblob formed and NC tards are whining, hilarious.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 09:19:00 -
[8]
+1
Slaves don't need a nerf. SC's do. The OP is dead on, I wouldn't be surprised if CCP's nerf looks something like this.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.31 10:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mr Peanut420 Fighter bombers effectiveness against subcaps will be diminished by a further 50%, making it necessary and beneficial for supercarriers to switch out to normal fighters in order to engage subcaps.
Supercarriers are anticapital platforms, they should not have the ability to easily engage subcapitals. No fighters or drones for supercarriers - FBs only.
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Gaz Widdow
Caldari Stargate SG-1
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Posted - 2011.05.31 13:48:00 -
[10]
Why would they Nerf drone space, when theyre the ones making CCP there wages....?
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Xorth Adimus
Caldari Blackwater USA Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.05.31 14:15:00 -
[11]
These may reduce the symptoms of a problem but not the cause, even if these are actually real changes and not some kinda poor troll attempt.
There is still no counter to 80 supercaps I can see other then 90 supercaps.
Therefore still utterly broken.
Dreads are the perfect counter but without some kind of significant buff they will just be instakilled (increase HPs in addition siege mode should create even more damage vs supercaps and 90% base resists plus reduce tracking penalties so you can actually hit other capitals that move).
Counter to dreads? stront runs out / cap warfare / sub caps avoid all but dread drone damage.
Also to answer with some helpful advice on the other off topic issue, the NC failed to adapt despite having access to more assets then the rest of eve put together, adapt or die.
(Also next time don't sell all your best arms to your future enemies, that you then invade... may help a tad).
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tyme Xandr Whered u get that info from?
It was addressed in the "Question and Answer Dev Blog". However, they did not say it was going to happen soon...only that it was inevitable.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Mr Peanut420 Fighter bombers effectiveness against subcaps will be diminished by a further 50%, making it necessary and beneficial for supercarriers to switch out to normal fighters in order to engage subcaps.
Supercarriers are anticapital platforms, they should not have the ability to easily engage subcapitals. No fighters or drones for supercarriers - FBs only.
uuhh right.. no drones no fighters.... and what pray tell will the super"carriers" then be "carrying"?
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Ker'Plah
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:29:00 -
[14]
um Fighter Bombers?
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Mastah Mazoku
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Posted - 2011.06.01 20:43:00 -
[15]
I just hope ccp will remember that the Hel is already nerfed for the -20% tank :D
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Mr Peanut420
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.06.09 07:01:00 -
[16]
Dreads will not be boosted much, they are currently well balanced with subcaps. If they were boosted (more ehp, better weapons, no siege), it would further widen the gap between caps and subcaps and the problem would just be moved down the isk chain to all capital pilots. Everyone would just fly dreads and that would be the game. It would be better than it is now, but it's not going to be the solution. Eve is committed to the continued usefulness of subcaps, that's good business and it's not going to change.
***previous posters are correct, the sheer volume of hitpoints for supercarriers will still be overwelming, it will be addressed.
Once the new fighter bomber constraints are in place (siege, less dmg to subs, no sov attack) it will not be unbalanced to allow normal carriers to deploy them. Carriers will still be weak, but their effectiveness against supercapitals will be greatly increased. In order to deploy fighter bombers they must mount fighter bomber control units, with each allowing 2 fighter bombers to be deployed (fighter bomber control units will provide 1000 bandwidth, with the fighter bomber siege module providing another 1000, for a max of 5000). If you wish to deploy 10 fighter bombers from a normal carrier, you lose all your high slots. Supercarriers natually have the bandwidth for fighter bombers and will not need control units, just the siege module.
How sweet cap warfare will be! I can't wait.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.09 08:13:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 09/06/2011 08:14:32
pointless thread and bad troll.
There will be always blobs of top tier ships in the game. The matter is how low you set that "top" tier. If you set it too low, a lot of older players will leave and a lot of players will lose a goal to play also, since a regular capital can be skilled pretty quick. This wont be good for CCPs income at all.
If no supercarrier blobs, then there will be huge carrier blobs with even more lag. Not an improvement IMO. Do we maybe want battleships as top tier of the game? No. I think if supercarriers will be nerfed, we will see titan blobs, the crying will begin all over again, CCP would have to nerf everything to utter uselessness.
NC failed to compete and recruited a ****ing lot of useless noobs whose goal was only ratting. That was the reason for all failure, not supercarriers.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.06.09 08:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Robert Caldera pointless thread and bad troll...
I am curious as to how you will spin that argumentation if looking at the entire timeline
The first mentions of SC's being/becoming OP pre-date the patch that introduced them (test server discussions).
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.09 09:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
The first mentions of SC's being/becoming OP pre-date the patch that introduced them (test server discussions).
before that they were pretty useless. People tend to call everything OP, where some they cant keep up but others can. What is if the supercarriers become useless again (people dont stop moaning otherwise), titans will be the next OP. What after that? Then people probably start even more whining about lag because 1000 carrier blobs begin to happen.
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Tinu Moorhsum
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Posted - 2011.06.09 11:54:00 -
[20]
Well he does have a point. Supercarriers are rediculously overpowered. It's the only ship in the game that doesn't have an achilles heel or a multiple smaller ship counter.
Sov warfare in 0.0 has become a simple task of comparing numbers. If you have more supers than the other fleet, you win. It's that's simple. There is simply no counter for them except putting more supers on the field than the other guy. And if you can't.... you lose.... every.... single.... time. It's extremely frustrating because CCP has created a no-win scenario with the way super-caps are right now.
In the old days the Titan used to have a "win" button and thankfully CCP balanced that to the point that the titan still has a role but you can't jump in a few titans and destroy/disperse a max-fleet of battleships with them. The new "win" however, is that you can still accomplish that task with a limited number of supers, and probably with no losses.
As far as rebalancing them, I don't know the answer. Perhaps one solution would be to make them unreppable by traditional logistics so they would be forced to rep themselves or each other (or use carriers in triage mode) and possibly have cap problems in longer engagements (create an achilles heel in terms of logistics). My personal preference, however, would be to give the dreadnaught a "mini" DD so they would have have a role as a possible multiple-ship counter to supers.
T-
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Gibbo5771
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Posted - 2011.06.09 13:22:00 -
[21]
CCP dont want rid of NC, they want DRF to own all of 0.0 so they have room for more bots so CCP makes more money, duh.....
0.0 is ****ed mate, its literally done with.
First CCP changed sov mechanics, making it easier for bigger alliances to overthrow smaller ones, this removed small alliances leaving only large ones.
Then came the supercap buff, meaning the person with the biggest blob and most supers won the fight.
They then nerfed true sec, deserting 90% of 0.0 freeing up lots of empty systems for bots to do there business without being bothered. Forcing all the legit players into "anomoly hubs" yet they were so worried about mission hubs so they fixed "that" forcing even more people out of 0.0, making room for more bots ofc.
CCP cant ammend 0.0, the damage is done
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Tinu Moorhsum
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Posted - 2011.06.09 13:51:00 -
[22]
... and don't forget the jump-bridge nerf :)
Actually, I'm not convinced at all that CCP is pro/anti- DRF (or anyone else) or that CCP as a company profits from 3rd party RMT trading. I also can't see how it would benefit them to have 0.0 taken over by one big RMT super-blob. What you're saying is completely illogical to me.
I *do* suspect from the times that I've gone roaming in drone space that a HUGE amount of robo-ratting is going on out there but don't forget that the DRF *did* buy a lot of their caps from the NC and even at that, the DRF had to hire PL to do their dirty work for them because the neither have good enough FC's or enough super-caps to do it themselves.
So don't worry about the DRF. They'll hold up in Tribute now that they swung their dirty little deal with Test and once PL is out of the picture you'll see some push back happening. Prepare for operation "Fountain of Blood".
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Heidi Mount
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Juliette DuBois Buy 200 supercarriers without someone noticing? Good luck.
Actually the Russians did just that, using alts. So yeah.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gibbo5771 ..CCP cant ammend 0.0, the damage is done
Wasn't the same said by Goons when BoB had them on the ropes and by BoB when Goons had them on the ropes and by Russians when they were on the ropes and ...
Eve has died so many times that it could fill a stadium with zombie extras all on its own
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Misunderstood Genius
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Posted - 2011.06.10 07:36:00 -
[25]
Compared to the 20x higher price to a carrier I don't see them overpowered. Before the RMT and botting conspiracy is mentioned again: everyone who's playing EVE for years must have recognized that this game is full of alpha- and hypernerds who dropped RL for EVE. I won't say that there's no "illegal ISK making" but when you look at ppl playing EVE 16/7 I am not surprised that we have so much "overpowered nerds" ingame.
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Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2011.06.10 09:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Heidi Mount
Originally by: Juliette DuBois Buy 200 supercarriers without someone noticing? Good luck.
Actually the Russians did just that, using alts. So yeah.
I think someone in NC must have noticed, they just did not care.
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Mr Peanut420
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.06.10 22:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 09/06/2011 09:12:29
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
The first mentions of SC's being/becoming OP pre-date the patch that introduced them (test server discussions).
before that they were pretty useless. People tend to call everything OP, where some they cant keep up but others can. What is if the supercarriers become useless again (people dont stop moaning otherwise), titans will be the next OP. What after that? Then people probably start even more whining about lag because 1000 carrier blobs begin to happen.
top tier ships in eve must be kinda "OP" for the usual noob, simply because they either cost a lot and use a lot or they are useless and thus no top tier actually.
Titans really aren't that unbalanced, and with normal carriers deploying fighterbombers as described, they will be very well balanced, as will the carriers. A blob of carriers set up to kill caps would be very vulnerable to subcaps (no repping) and will make for a rich combat environment (where people will actually fight because smaller non bank breaking ships can actually make a difference).
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Astor Daeoli
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:29:00 -
[28]
Instead of nerfingsuper carriers, why not boost regular carriers and dreads?
How do you like the sound of carriers and dreads with twice the EHPs and twice the DPS?
Siege and triage timers down to 1 minute?
Ccp can always compensate for this boost by doubling the mineral cost needed to make carriers and dreads.
While this change would still see super carriers ludicrously strong in comparison to regular carriers and dreads, at least the boosted ships would narrow the ludicrously large gap, and eve's elite "I win button" owning vets would still keep their uber ships untouched.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 18:40:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mr Peanut420 Have hope people of New Eden, with the end of the NC comes the end of the game breaking overpowered Supercarrier. CCP will nerf them as soon as the NC is destroyed (which was their goal with the anom nerf also, I mean, really, destroying legitimate income while leaving botting income, comeon).
The Supercarrier is far out of step with the very fine EVE doctrine of diminishing marginal returns. This is where as things get more expensive, the increased value gets less and less. This is not true of supercarriers. In properly bonused form a supercarrier has more effective hit points than the combined total EHP of a full fleet (255) of equally well bonused abaddons. But the abaddons cost 4 times more than the supercarrier. With unrestricted remote repping a good size force of supercarriers can survive literally any assault from a subcap/regular cap fleet that the node can support. This means nothing from empire can ever challenge existing supercapital fleets, no matter what happens.
Supercarriers are the primary tool of SOV warfare, so nothing out of empire can ever challenge a large supercarrier force for SOV. This means the dominate force in 0.0 can impose a complete monopoly on Supercapital construction. So nothing out of empire will ever be able to build a supercapital force to challenge existing ones. This is the kind of elite risk free PVP that drives paying players away and it will not continue after CCP gets what they want (NC gone).
Here are the changes that will go into effect:
Fighter bombers will no longer be able to engage SOV structures, dreads will have a role again, and supercarriers will become a counter rather than an invasion tool in their own right.
Fighter bombers will require an active siege module for deployment, no more shoot and scoot, no more remote rep.
Fighter bombers effectiveness against subcaps will be diminished by a further 50%, making it necessary and beneficial for supercarriers to switch out to normal fighters in order to engage subcaps.
Total effective hitpoints will be reduced by 20%, they will still be very hard to kill, but somewhat more vulnerable when combined with the other drawbacks.
They will still be very powerful and useful ships, but they will no longer be the only ship that matters.
Is this a suggestion for a new feature..because if it is I'm missing it.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.06.13 18:54:00 -
[30]
Nerf Supers
OR
Buff Dreads
OR
Assign some sort of limitation to constructing and fielding supers. Money and time won't stop them from being built. Instead attach the number your alliance can field to the aggregate industrial index/size of your empire. You have 10 systems with an average industrial index of 3? Your alliance can field 15. You can own 30 but only 15 at any time can log on. Something like that.
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