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Asharan Nadav
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Posted - 2011.06.05 07:30:00 -
[1]
Hey, i've read through the forums but unfortunely most guides are active from 2008. I'd like to know as apprentice in the proffesion if their's a guide for this types of ships and how to use them, what ship specs and such exist on forums or on the web.
Thanks in advance!
Doomhammar
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Sindora Bedala
Minmatar
New Eden Trade Union
Genesis Invictus
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Posted - 2011.06.05 09:42:00 -
[2]
I am wondering the exact same thing, for instance: other than being a utility for your corp. What other ways are there to make ISK as a covert-ops pilot.
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Mocam
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Posted - 2011.06.05 10:07:00 -
[3]
Black ops are used to bridge gangs to a cyno - covert or normal, either works as a destination but only other covert ops cloak using ships can be bridged.
Recons come in flavors but your choice of wording lends itself towards forced recon - the cloaky one. Many uses for these (my favorite is the Pilgrim - excellent ship for PvE exploration use but all are decent ships if flown well).
The first thing to ask would be PvE or PvP? If PvE, there are some limits to what you'll look at - check out probing and exploration tutorials.
With respect to PvP there are some in-game classes you might be able to pay ISK for on practical/hands-on uses - I believe Agony Unleashed occasionally offers such classes.
I know EVE University has done some class and field work with black ops in the past but this is fairly rare due to it's "newbie training corp" nature. Some of us older chars occasionally get involved in such things but, again it is rare.
here are a few links to some resources from the uni.
http://www.eveuniversity.org/2011/03/e-uni-guests-lectures-on-scamming-and-black-ops/ - announcement on a guest lecture.
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/w/images/6/68/E-UNI_Black_Ops_and_Scamming.mp3 - recording of the lecture.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1003/dns-covert_warefare_clinic.mp3 - recorded class on covert/black ops warefare (dirt nap squad guest lecturers)
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Exploring/Exploiting_Wormholes - PvE guide on exploration of wormholes...
Other such resources are on the wiki as well - feel free to look around. The wiki is available for the community at large, not just uni members.
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Asharan Nadav
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Posted - 2011.06.05 10:26:00 -
[4]
Well i've been in Eve for abit and the sound of Covert Ops and Black Ops sounded appealign to me, the question is(at PVP level and at 1on1 level) how effect are both?(mainly Black Ops and Stealth Bombers) and if they are worth the trouble at any point? For example is this proffesions can earn you in cash at Corp-level/Missionlevel/somelevel and mainly how importent is this proffesion in Corperation level
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Mocam
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:05:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Asharan Nadav
Well i've been in Eve for abit and the sound of Covert Ops and Black Ops sounded appealign to me, the question is(at PVP level and at 1on1 level) how effect are both?(mainly Black Ops and Stealth Bombers) and if they are worth the trouble at any point? For example is this proffesions can earn you in cash at Corp-level/Missionlevel/somelevel and mainly how importent is this proffesion in Corperation level
Black ops are extremely expensive for very limited performance gains. Their primary use is to bridge other ships through - they are the only other ship, outside a titan, that can provide jump bridge capabilities for others to use.
It is quite possible to fit a T1 battleship out with superior fire power to a black ops. This is often a complaint about them so if you're looking for combat use - this isn't a ship I'd recommend you choosing. They can't warp cloaked like other covert ships (cannot fit covert cloaks) but they do move fairly quickly while cloaked. This lack of warping cloaked means you'll be visible when you arrive at a target until you do cloak and that's not a great way to "jump" someone.
Stealthbombers can work but are tricky. They don't hit small targets that well - bombs and torps are designed to hit bigger targets (battleship class but BC's get hurt by them) but there are ways around such limitations. It *IS* a frigate and they are so paper thin that almost anything that can lock it can kill it so you use hit-and-run tactics with them.
With some good skills the bombers can be used for a variety of "messing someones day up" but they are best used in teams vs soloing - though soloing can and is done with them.
For 1v1 solo work I'd suggest looking at the recon ships. They can pack a bit of a punch and have EW capabilities to cripple up your targets. Due to their sneaky nature, they are a favored ship to use for hot-drops. You can fly up close to a ship, drop cloak then target them. You pick the fights - they don't and being cruiser sized, you remain nimble.
With respect to this - you can also go with a T3 but they do tend to be pricey - though not really much more than a decently fit black ops.
My advice on this would be to study up on web info a bit then see about contacting Agony about a practical class when you have the skills to fly them. They can provide far more/better info and you'll get hands-on practice with pilots that use these things.
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Daneel Trevize
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:10:00 -
[6]
Only the brave/stupid 1v1 in a Black Ops or cov ops. Bombers aren't much smarter/easier, you have to be very selective to gank anything and stay alive. The pigrim can solo quite a few PvE and PvP ships, the other cloaky recons generally all need backup, they are ewar boats and work as force multipliers.
A cov ops pilot should be able to make a living if their corp truely values what they can do. Bears could pay for the grav, ladar and other pve sites they can find in empire/k-space, but the best money I know of is as point man for w-space hunters. Any decent pvp corp should split the loot evenly between all involved, so if you're flying the ship that gets the gang to the wormhole and then is the warpin to a pimped t3 in an anom, or even the initial tackler, they should get their fair, substancial cut. My alt certainly got to fly a cov ops/bomber for the longest time and rack up the shiny kills. You'd be hard pressed to be such a pilot 100% of the time but cov ops 5 benefits 2 great and cheap boats, and leads to recons which are a nice change of pace (generally a little more range/safety/tank and can be involved in fights rather than just ganks). |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.05 22:07:00 -
[7]
Quote:
Black ops are used to bridge gangs to a cyno - covert or normal, either works as a destination but only other covert ops cloak using ships can be bridged.
you mean only other ops ships. since the black ops itself has been denied the covert ops cloak but still may travel in a covert cyno...
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Hazel Starr
Krypteia Brotherhood
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Posted - 2011.06.06 00:54:00 -
[8]
It is possible to use Black Ops BS as ambush ships on gates
to catch high-value low-sec mission runners such as unprobable T3's
doing a gate transition. The zero-delay uncloak plus appropriate
fitting bonuses gives you a chance of catching the unwary mission
runner who sees an empty arrival gate.
This is high stakes poker as your ambush ship is going to be
coming in not far shy of a Billion ISK...
We've done it...but we're not over-keen.
-- Haze
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Mocam
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Posted - 2011.06.06 02:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Barbara Nichole
Quote:
Black ops are used to bridge gangs to a cyno - covert or normal, either works as a destination but only other covert ops cloak using ships can be bridged.
you mean only other ops ships. since the black ops itself has been denied the covert ops cloak but still may travel in a covert cyno...
Picky, picky... yeah *snicker*
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BolsterBomb
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Posted - 2011.06.06 17:42:00 -
[10]
The best way to learn is really go out there. YI have read tons of forum post about what a bomber can and cant do, what to fit it with and what not to etc etc.
Get one and go at it. I have learned what I like to use fitting wise based off of experience. I like the solo bomb launcher fit with nanos in the bottom and ab/mse fit. Others hate it and prefer the mwd fit, which I think is a garbage fit. Others think a solo bomber needs to use bcu's in the lows instead of a BL. Its all subjective to how you play.
In addition, learning how to stalk and position yourself near targets is a crucial piece of learning info that you can only learn by doing. I have a blog out http://abomberslifeonthehighropes.blogspot.com/ that shows my learning experience.
Ive recently joined a fleet of bombers and am learning a whole other aspect of how bombers operate. Hopefully the corp will learn it as well. Most of the time your learning experience goes like this.....lets get it!! pop...oh crap.....lets get it...pop...crap....lets not get this one...good....oko lets get this Yes destruction *fist pump*. Its all about trial and error, get into a bomber before a recon so you understand stealth mechanics, then fly the t1 varriant of the recon. Combine the two and you should have a good feel of how things can operate.
Hope that helps...
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Daneel Trevize
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.06 18:01:00 -
[11]
Don't fly the T1 Gal/Min recons, they only have the painter and damps bonuses. The Amarr one at least has the TDs even though it's not got bonused neuts, and the blackbird gets 2 jamming bonuses. |
Red Teufel
Blackened Skies
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Posted - 2011.06.06 18:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Don't fly the T1 Gal/Min recons, they only have the painter and damps bonuses. The Amarr one at least has the TDs even though it's not got bonused neuts, and the blackbird gets 2 jamming bonuses.
now now. the gall and min recons get bonuses to webs and scrams.
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Daneel Trevize
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.06 18:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 18:48:28
Originally by: Red Teufel
Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Don't fly the T1 Gal/Min recons, they only have the painter and damps bonuses. The Amarr one at least has the TDs even though it's not got bonused neuts, and the blackbird gets 2 jamming bonuses.
now now. the gall and min recons get bonuses to webs and scrams.
This is the T1 cruisers as suggested. They don't get tackle bonuses. EA frigs do as cheaper ways of learning the T2 bonuses, but they're not as cheap or useful to train as said cruisers. |
BolsterBomb
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Posted - 2011.06.06 18:59:00 -
[14]
The t1 variants give you a very good idea as to how to fly it. Clearly the t2 variant is going to be much more feasible and have more variety, but the skills used to fly the t1 variant are very very similiar as the t2 and you get to learn the thigns it is good at so it gives you a bar to measure against.
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Daneel Trevize
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.06 19:08:00 -
[15]
Except when the context is learning ships that can cloak, really only the arbi and BB are flown/perform anything like their cloaky recon counterparts. AFAIK Arbi just doesn't have the surprise factor, BB not quite the jamming/range. But the bell and celest can't dictate range at all so they're nothing like the true recons. |
Cydens
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.06 19:37:00 -
[16]
As previously stated, it is best to go out and get experience in-game.
You can read as many guides as you like, but like a lot of things in EVE there is no substitute to fleeting up with people who know what they're doing and jumping into some ops. You'll find out if it's for you and what role you prefer to play.
A lot of people have trained up the skills, then found covert ops boring or slow and never touched their Recon again. I highly reccomend you find a group to fly with to test the waters.
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Daneel Trevize
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.06 19:54:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 19:55:12
Just to make it clear:
Cov ops can be 100% PvE pilots, they can find site for themselves/friends, then come back in site-running/salvaging ships. These secondary ships need not be T2 and so the majority of SP can go towards the cov ops ship/other iskmaking if that's what the pilot likes.
For PvP they can also be on-grid warpins/issue squad warps while sitting by a gate/wormhole onto combat scan results without having to risk themselves.
Recons are for pvp or possibly a weird cov ops cloaked hauler. I don't believe they can really fit any tank enough for pve.
Black ops need pvp friends, and are for ganks/ballsy fights. You would be stupid to fit a weak active tank to them unless you're being very inefficent in highsec and love their looks more than isk. |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
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Posted - 2011.06.07 00:11:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 07/06/2011 00:12:18
Originally by: Hazel Starr
This is high stakes poker as your ambush ship is going to be coming in not far shy of a Billion ISK...
Old data. A T2 fitted Widow costs around 500 million, or about the same as 3 Falcons. Since it does about 3x the damage of a Falcon with the same jamming bonus, it's a pretty good ship for the money. It can lock and jam right after decloaking, which 3 Falcons can't do. It can also jump out of system without aligning or warping, in case things go pear-shaped.
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Daneel Trevize
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.07 00:27:00 -
[19]
Interesting BO thing while I remember it: creating the portal breaks points (or was it locks) on yourself, unless this was just a temp bug a corpmate found on Sisi.
So I guess you can spam jump as soon as your cycle ends and just vanish. |
Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.09 01:10:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Old data. A T2 fitted Widow costs around 500 million, or about the same as 3 Falcons. Since it does about 2-3x the damage of a Stealth Bomber with the Falcon jamming bonus, it's a pretty good ship for the money.
Fixed your post
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Wilddragon25
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Posted - 2011.06.09 06:53:00 -
[21]
I know the idea behind black pops sounds really cool and all but being able to only move cloaking ships which themselves are kinda week unless there are many of them, and the black opps not being able to warp cloaked kinda kills it, why not just allow it to bridge any type of ship? This will really bring it into it's own. Still use covert cyno's and be able to from 100 ships into a system that is camped to hell will bring it's popularity up significantly.
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Creepy Goat
Collateral.
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Posted - 2011.06.09 09:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Wilddragon25
I know the idea behind black pops sounds really cool and all but being able to only move cloaking ships which themselves are kinda week unless there are many of them, and the black opps not being able to warp cloaked kinda kills it, why not just allow it to bridge any type of ship? This will really bring it into it's own. Still use covert cyno's and be able to from 100 ships into a system that is camped to hell will bring it's popularity up significantly.
Because then you will have BlackOps everywhere hotdropping everyone with Battleships and Battlecruisers. That is a terrible idea. That is not what the ship is designed for. It is designed for precision hit and run attacks, not bloody Titan-esque entire fleet hotdrops.
----
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Wilddragon25
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Posted - 2011.06.09 10:41:00 -
[23]
Then limit them to just dropping a squad in, nothing would be more damaging to a gate came than to have 10 meastroms or apoc's dropping in at 180 km off gate and alpha'ing the campers before they can react.
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Baudolino
Gallente
Royal Crimson Lancers
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Posted - 2011.06.09 10:46:00 -
[24]
While i still find the BO poorly defined and would like a revamp of bonuses and stats and do find it an enjoying ship.
Mostly i use it for mission busting, anti-ratting and camp-busting. My BO designs typically kills in 60 seconds (+/- 10).
BO is a great ship for outright muggings, but very very bad for prolongued engagements and equally matched forces (which is why you aim for the 60 second kill)
Panther can do 1300 DPS with a good shield tank
Widow can do 1600 DPS with a combination of tank/jam
Panther is fast and Widow is stupidly slow, but combined they are the perfect guerilla team imho.
My preferred BO scout is Arazu, but the pilgrim is also very good.
For me as a -9 character it`s a great ship, but very expensive and except for mission-busting there are plenty of ships that do things better..
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:35:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rajere
Quote:
Old data. A T2 fitted Widow costs around 500 million, or about the same as 3 Falcons. Since it does about 2-3x the damage of a Stealth Bomber with the Falcon jamming bonus, it's a pretty good ship for the money.
Fixed your post
I meant 3 Rooks. :) But yeah, 3x SB is a good comparison too.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Baudolino
Widow can do 1600 DPS with a combination of tank/jam
 
Is that a realistic fit for lie-in-wait mugging? I'm seeing a bit more than 1000 dps with all V skills and a straight T2 fit. I assume yours is an officer fit to hit that dps figure?
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Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.10 11:59:00 -
[27]
Widow hits 1300 DPS with just T2 and overheating.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
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Posted - 2011.06.10 18:19:00 -
[28]
Is EFT wrong? 5 Rage torps, 4 BCU, 3 Ogre II, all level V skills, and EFT reports around 1100dps overloaded with a T2 fit.
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Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.10 18:48:00 -
[29]
dunno, I changed EFT pref to include reload time (normally I don't for Black Ops b/c it's not relevant) and I still can't get 1100 dps, ~1150 with 3xBCU IIs, 5x Siege II Rage Torps and drones (2xogre 2xhammerhead 1xhobgob, but honestly in a real fit it would be 3xGarde IIs), even with 3xOgres it's still 1130ish.
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Gunner Cid
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2011.06.10 22:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Is EFT wrong? 5 Rage torps, 4 BCU, 3 Ogre II, all level V skills, and EFT reports around 1100dps overloaded with a T2 fit.
I think the 1600 DPS was a fairly aggressive number.
If you go with;
5 siege/rages
3cn bcu
t2 rof rig
5% dmg/rof hardwires
ogres
You get 1500 dps heated
4 navy bcus = 1480 (no rof rig)
4 bcus = 1400 (no rof rig)
3bcus +1 t2 rof rig = 1430
That said, we are looking at paper dps that does not factor in speed/sig at all. My buddy and I have been flying Panther/Widow for the past period of time, we both have the comparable SP/isk investments into our ships. Anything smaller than a BS I normally outdmg him, when it is a BS or larger target there are several factors that come into play, namely if we both have same time on target (panther locks noticeably faster/lag) and the resist profile of the target. He does outdamage me when there are no variables impacting his performance.
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