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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.06 11:19:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Caliph Muhammed on 06/06/2011 11:29:46
Hello, my name is, well you know my name. So lets get to the point. Im interested in the stocks and dividends side of the EVE trade scene. Im a successful trader already but im looking to expand my operations outside of the region I currently trade in. What I trade in can swallow my entire bankroll. Im trading in a volume now that can take a week to fill. Granted im not buying one item at a time. I usually have minimums on orders but even if I buy 1 at a time it still takes me a 4-5 days on average to fill.
If I could expand my operations obviously I can monopolize the market to a greater degree & eventually reap in more profit than I can currently. It would also allow me more time trading and I feel as though I can handle the additional responsibility. My current setup is minimal work and I spend alot of time doing level 4s. I'd prefer a little less missioning.
What you are investing in should you choose to is my ability to win the .01 wars. I do it whenever I decide to trade. I'm self employed and work from home so my time is free to do as I please. If you have ever been in a .01 war and thought you were against a bot, you probably weren't. There are players like myself who watch their orders down to the minute. Obviously this can monopolize your time which is why I deal in select markets and keep diversity minimized when possible. Sure, you can spread your risk around by being diverse, but you also spread your time around as well as stack on the responsibility.
I believe many scams have probably started off as legit ventures but the person attempting to make it work ends up overwhelmed. Given the anonymous nature of the net it makes walking away with the money that much easier. In EVE there is risk. You have to learn to minimize it. Some of the bonds I see wouldn't be worth the risk if the interest payment was 100%. The initial investment is often at a level where one could play and live comfortable in EVE as a pvper for the remainder of their EVE life with just a casual mission or game interaction. Quite honestly the .05% chance the deal is a scam might as well be 99% for all intents and purposes.
I'm well aware of how risk averse the population is. I'm the same way. So I had to figure out a way to approach the investment scene with a plan that people can live with, myself included. I'd also like the opportunity to help less than wealthy individuals enter into the investor market without alot of risk. It serves two goals.
I get the satisfaction of running a mutual fund of sorts and play around with the shares and dividends side of the game and perhaps make some friends along the way. Im not the most social individual, im a self sufficient loaner so any passive help in that area is a benefit to me.
I want to create, say 1,000,000 shares. I want to sell them for 1000 ISk each. Im going to invest my personal money to buy 51% to maintain control of the corp and i'd like to sell the rest to the public. That totals 1 billion isk which is in realistic terms enough to make working in a second region worth the effort. Im not going to promise a set % per share because the market can be faster or slower in a week. And while my current assets allow me to cover this entire amount a few times over i'd rather not have to explain why x% wasn't made this week.
So instead what i'd like to do is in the corporation charter have it where for every 100 million profit, 50 million is put into the investment fund and 50 million is paid out in dividends. That means over time larger investment capabilities which will lead to larger/faster dividends paid out. No one works for free thats why obviously im going to buy 51%.
I am making money out of this but I am doing the work. The invester merely has to wait for his dividends. Over time with regular payouts the value of the stock will rise and through word of mouth a credible stock can be bought and traded. If the person should want to sell the stocks back I think a 90% buyback would be fair. Meaning if the current sell price of the stock is 1000 you can sell them at anytime back to the company for 900. That covers any fees that may or not be present (if the corps money is tied up, liquidating for the buyback) and just in general prevents people from doing a two day investment wasting my time and the funds in general.
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.06 11:22:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Caliph Muhammed on 06/06/2011 11:31:24
When the investment fund grows enough to warrant an expansion or just in general should I come across a lucrative option and selling more shares sounds like a good idea, a vote will be called and a mail will be sent to all shareholders with an explanation, a projected outcome regarding the opportunity, as well as any other significant information that would bring light to the situation.
I, as the 51% shareholder will abstain from voting. Meaning only the shareholders will decide whether creating more shares is in the companies best interest. Those shareholders will have first option on buying the new shares before they go public.
Now this is in the planning stages in so much as the share creation, but should there be an interest I will put things in motion. There is no minimum investment. Buy one or buy many. I do recommend though not to over-invest. Treat it as a social experiment with perks. Yes you'll make more money with a bigger investment but i'd rather have a diverse investment group. It keeps things honest. The more investors, the more the risk is spread and the more likely the ceo (me) is to keep it honest. Making many enemies is far scarier in EVE than making one enemy. Not to mention the word of mouth factor. One investor doesn't have the credibility of 50 investors.
I will be creating a new corp with a new name, something more appropriate. The corp will be a 1 man corp, as it keeps me from being wardec'ed through the fault of irresponsible corp members and no one will have access to the corp's fund but me. One person is accountable. Me.
Now im a pvp toon, about 2 days away from my eighth pvp focused elite cert so in war time im still able to conduct business. Either through contract hauling as a last ditch effort or through use of a cloak (im 2 days from having elite cloak cert) so there isn't much that's going to hamper the funds ability. If I deem the risk too high (incredibly unlikely) all shares will cash out at 100% of the price paid with an opportunity to reinvest at a later date.
Now, im in no rush, I have my own money to make a living with so let's proceed slow and steady. If you have a question or a suggestion post it and i'll do my best to answer it.
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.06 11:25:00 -
[3]
reserved....
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.06 11:28:00 -
[4]
reserved....
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Tom Hagen
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Posted - 2011.06.06 12:56:00 -
[5]
So you are looking for 490million..
I can take all shares :-)
I am at work and short on time I have a couple of question thou.
1. Would it be ok to use Tutski on some small fact cecking?
2. Do you have a lowball estimate on what one could expect in return?
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.06.06 13:51:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 06/06/2011 13:50:55
what I read:
 Originally by: Caliph Muhammed
Im a successful trader already but im looking to expand my operations outside of the religion I currently trade in.
stop using names that screw with my mental context!
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.06 14:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tom Hagen
So you are looking for 490million..
I can take all shares :-)
I am at work and short on time I have a couple of question thou.
1. Would it be ok to use Tutski on some small fact cecking?
2. Do you have a lowball estimate on what one could expect in return?
1a)This wouldn't be a problem. Though currently with this 1 man corp im in, it has no sales records as I use my own personal wallet. The API key im sure will show my personal ability to make money and past transactions but when I create the new corp all transactions will be done through the corporate wallets instead. I would point out that currently I trade for myself. Meaning I don't treat it as a job and just make money when I feel like it. If there is genuine interest in the idea however I would be much more consistent logging in and doing what I do. Essentially as it stands I might trade 3 weeks in a row and then stop for two weeks.
So in summary, yes I am more than happy to provide proof of my ability to generate income. I'm not concerned for the most with people learning what I do, because in the end I still have what many people don't have, and that's the ability to monopolize a regions trade of a item through pure control of the highest buy order. I also have the ability to supplement income through planetary interaction (4-5 planets if I wanted) and of course level 4 missions. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself and i'd like to start simple, and perhaps discuss additional ideas with the fund as we go along.
2a)I work with a larger amount so i'd have to do some calculations, it really depends on what item(s) im monopolizing at the time. I try and deal with volume, so instead of making 30k per item I might make 5k per item but sell 30000 of it. Or I may make 1.5 mil per item but only sell 25 of them. I do have the option to sell some items for 50-200 times its cost with losec deliveries. The market is a fluid beast, I don't lose money. I deal in things people use and predominantly quick money. The exact way I go about it varies depending on the current profitability and with what will be in the future my shareholders best interest. What I suffer from at the moment is lack of purpose. When im making money for myself I make what I need and find something else to entertain me. If I had a real purpose in being a pure trader the sky's the limit.
2b)I don't really need 490 million. If there is genuine interest in a large investment fund then I could work with far greater numbers but what im trying to do here is create a fund where the little guy can throw money into it, and not feel like hes gonna ragequit if the guy he doesnt know personally runs off(which isn't my intention). I want people to be able to look at thier wallet and see a stock there and then once a week or so see dividends go out. IDK maybe im part roleplayer and just enjoy the feel of a working stock system. As the fund grows and becomes reputable I assure you for the amount you put in, you will find the percentage worthwhile.
2c)Let me see how much interest there is in the idea and i'll get back to you with a fleshed out profit margin. I will tell you this just half assing for myself I can keep myself playing free. If im trading im making money and a worthwhile amount. If you're looking to make billions overnight, this particular fund isn't inspired by the idea to do so. I'm confident with the right funding I could, but I came to the board with a notion of casual and absolute minimal risk.
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.06 14:18:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Caliph Muhammed on 06/06/2011 14:26:33
Originally by: Cyaxares II
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 06/06/2011 13:50:55
what I read:
Originally by: Caliph Muhammed
Im a successful trader already but im looking to expand my operations outside of the religion I currently trade in.
stop using names that screw with my mental context!
I have alot of debates online over religion, and when you quoted it as such I had to check my original post and make sure I didn't subconciously spell it that way. Now you're messing with my mental context!
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2011.06.06 14:32:00 -
[9]
 ZOMOIGWAD
un mien guttevuun vuas einen bletzen Ich mich auf; ein blietzkreigen by dun VALL UF TEXT eist haben mich sprechen ein deutch du heirst. ffs wtf!?
You single handedly just shrunk down the size of any of VV's monumental speeches.
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Coty
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Posted - 2011.06.06 15:20:00 -
[10]
Vote me in. Please remember i am a newer player with a smaller wallet, but i would love to be included in this.
smaller wallet means less i have to lose, so im not as concerned with some factors that may turn others away. please evemail me when ready
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.06 15:34:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Coty
Vote me in. Please remember i am a newer player with a smaller wallet, but i would love to be included in this.
smaller wallet means less i have to lose, so im not as concerned with some factors that may turn others away. please evemail me when ready
Noted.
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OllieNorth
Gallente
Interstellar Entrepreneurs
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Posted - 2011.06.06 18:44:00 -
[12]
If you choose to expand this, I would like to sign on for 5000 shares @ 5,000,000 ISK, a nice entry-priced nub-share 
It sounds like a pretty cool idea, I would like to see where it goes. I find the idea of paying someone else to do the 0.01 isk game for me. . .
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Natsett Amuinn
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Posted - 2011.06.06 19:23:00 -
[13]
I'd be interested in 5k shares if you get this going, as well.
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Tom Hagen
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Posted - 2011.06.06 20:31:00 -
[14]
I get the feeling you really want your shares widespread among the Eve population :-)
Since it is your shares I wont complain about it.
When everyone have got there shares and you have reached a number that you are satisfied with just sign me up for the rest so you get this one filled.
I just like the idea of having ISK trickle in on my account every month..
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Xinlisupreme
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Posted - 2011.06.06 23:06:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Xinlisupreme on 06/06/2011 23:06:50
This looks pretty cool. I'm a starting trader doing pretty well. Mostly high sec because low sec still feels scary although I probably use the same methods you do. (For all I know I'd be trading against my own shares!) Anyway, when I found this forum I started getting interested in the business world of EVE and this seems like a nice way to see how things work in the game.
Sign me up for 10.000 shares.
How would I go about giving you the money?
we're the unfixed, the ever mixed up. here's where we nog longer occur. |
Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.06 23:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tom Hagen
I get the feeling you really want your shares widespread among the Eve population :-)
Since it is your shares I wont complain about it.
When everyone have got there shares and you have reached a number that you are satisfied with just sign me up for the rest so you get this one filled.
I just like the idea of having ISK trickle in on my account every month..
Sure thing. Tom I appreciate your willingness to invest in my idea, I genuinely do. I know the 490 mil is probably a drop in the bucket for you and you love investing. The idea of it, like me. This will be as much an experiment as a business opportunity and that's why I want absolute casual investment.
I want the investor to see a stock in his wallet & the mail of a dividend payout. I don't want to have to reassure an investor that if im pvping or doing something on my own that their investment is still sound everyday I log in. When you have hundreds of millions or billions of one persons ISK the natural tendency heads that way. I want investments where people can basically forget about it on the day to day and have a "neato" effect when a dividend pays out.
Honestly i'd love to see a working stock exchange in EVE but its seriously limited by the fact nothing is enforceable to a large degree. So understanding that, to effectively start a stock exchange from the ground floor and have it eventually populate with stocks that are worth investing in one has to find a way to set a standard of building mutually low risk, low commitment investment options.
Optimally this would catch on and you'd have thousands of traders selling cheap stocks. Those stocks that perform would be known and would command a higher price. Now, trading does require, in my opinion, a fair amount of ISK to invest to be worth the legwork.
So low share cost, high share count, spread over many investors seems the best route for raising it with that gameplan in mind. If I were to die in real life a month from now and never logged in again the stock could be written off by each investor as good fun if nothing else.
The downside to this approach is each individual investment you may dabble in won't be a get rich quick scheme. It'll be a small passive income, that may or may not evolve into a "fortune 500" type of deal.
Weigh it against what you really believe your chances of investing billions of ISK into a player whom you do not know personally and having them make you rich or even for that matter not scamming you completely.
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.07 00:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Xinlisupreme
Edited by: Xinlisupreme on 06/06/2011 23:06:50
This looks pretty cool. I'm a starting trader doing pretty well. Mostly high sec because low sec still feels scary although I probably use the same methods you do. (For all I know I'd be trading against my own shares!) Anyway, when I found this forum I started getting interested in the business world of EVE and this seems like a nice way to see how things work in the game.
Sign me up for 10.000 shares.
How would I go about giving you the money?
I'll contact you when i've got everything setup as I want it. Anyone who wants an opportunity to invest will have one. The fund becoming active isn't dependant on selling all the shares just a matter of me setting up the corp, voting to create the initial shares and then sending out emails for notification. Im on a large portion of the day (depending on my mood) but once we get going when you recieve the evemail you can send the ISK to this character and should I not be on (not sure if you can send money to me if im offline) i'll send the shares out as soon as log on. If and when you do send the ISK send a evemail as well letting me know you did. It will make tracking things alot easier as I could avoid having to scan through my wallet details.
Don't send the ISK until I contact you though. Im not prepared at the moment to begin, and this can be considered the brainstorming portion of it. Im about to crash so when I get up and log on i'll get my ducks in a row and figure out what I need to get setup. I'll keep the thread updated, and we'll go from there.
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Arancar Australis
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Posted - 2011.06.07 11:42:00 -
[18]
I'd be interested in buying 5 to 10K of shares
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Chevalleis
The Legendary Conquest
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Posted - 2011.06.07 12:22:00 -
[19]
I didn't read half of your posts, but put me down for 5-10k.
VV, can you take the challenge on huge posts?
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Strrog
Caldari
Zero Excavations
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Posted - 2011.06.07 12:53:00 -
[20]
Greetings Caliph,
It looks like a progressive fund :). Lets see if I understood you right on the way the fund works:
we buy shares
you do business ( which kind we need to expand on that )
the profit will be split in two ways, 1 it will be pay out in interest payment to investors/shareholders ( dividends), the second part will go to the growth of the fund?
The questions that's most of interest to me is what you up to in terms of business plan ?
PS. I am new to the shares/corp thing, would like some tips. And will it be considered non-collateral investment?
thank you
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Mu-Shi Ai
The Chrysalis Group
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Posted - 2011.06.07 12:58:00 -
[21]
I could see myself taking on some shares if/once you make the offering official. I'm not so big on bonds, but I rather like IPO-style offerings.
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.07 13:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Caliph Muhammed
I don't really need 490 million [..] what im trying to do here is create a fund where the little guy can throw money into it, and not feel like hes gonna ragequit if the guy he doesnt know personally runs off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku2dP1klj_I |
Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.07 16:16:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Caliph Muhammed on 07/06/2011 16:19:21
Edited by: Caliph Muhammed on 07/06/2011 16:16:36
Originally by: Strrog
Greetings Caliph,
It looks like a progressive fund :). Lets see if I understood you right on the way the fund works:
we buy shares
you do business ( which kind we need to expand on that )
the profit will be split in two ways, 1 it will be pay out in interest payment to investors/shareholders ( dividends), the second part will go to the growth of the fund?
The questions that's most of interest to me is what you up to in terms of business plan ?
PS. I am new to the shares/corp thing, would like some tips. And will it be considered non-collateral investment?
thank you
1a) Precisely. Instead of the fund claiming to borrow 100 billion from investors and offer a 15% interest rate after "X" days (15% yeah we wish) it will payout based on the actual profit the fund makes. So for every, say 100 million in profit, half would go back into the fund itself and the other half would be distributed through the shares system. Once the fund became large enough through its 50% self-reinvestment charter that (re-investment) percentage could be lowered to allow for greater than 50% profit to dividends. The exact number I don't know but there will come a point where its buying power should be great enough to make expanding it at a 50% rate unnecessary. That I suppose would be up to the investors.
2a)The business plan at this point in the venture is hard for the type of trader I am to really say exactly. There's quite a few types of trade.
-invest long term in minerals/trade goods and make profit through retail.
-buy something in one region and sell it in another through buy orders or at a retail level (instant or delayed).
-supply low cost useful items to losec stations at greatly inflated prices (Risk involved but steady income).
-a myriad of other possibilities in EVE research & industry.
2b)Nailing down 1 precise plan in my opinion is why alot of ventures go bad. If someone wants to borrow X-amount to buy a blueprint to sell copies, promises x% interest only to find out that no one lost a large quantity of this or that or another competitor decided to do the same thing he's forced to default on the promised interest.
This leaves the trader/entrepeneur in a difficult scenario. The failure to meet expectations will in many cases see their credibility damaged by word of mouth. Even if it's not particularly spiteful when it happens its still there.
If Schmotrader's deal turned bad but not dishonest their still going to have problems getting future investors. People want success and have zero sympathy for failure. If something catastrophic goes wrong who takes the loss? Should the trader or should the investor? Both knew of the risk but the way it plays out is the trader should refund everyone thereby removing all risk from investing. That system is hard to navigate.
Many at this point choose option B which is to understand you're going to be trolled for lack of success and just keep what you managed to borrow or what's left.
2c)The business plan is to do what I do best. Take the capital find the exploitable trade option and make it work. Its the only guarenteed profit system as it has the flexibility to adapt to the market. Besides that if I laid out my every move it could cost the fund great heaps of profit as there is nothing stopping a non-investor or for that matter a spy from stealing the information and doing it themselves. Counter-productive.
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.07 16:25:00 -
[24]
The point to this structure is to make it cheap enough that someone can with no worries invest in this character Caliph Muhammed as a profit making trader. Instead of investing in any 1 particular idea you are investing in my ability to find the exploitable market and take advantage of that knowledge.
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Mayor Scott Kurvora
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Posted - 2011.06.07 16:34:00 -
[25]
I would also like to buy 10k shares
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.07 18:05:00 -
[26]
Im putting together a plan at present that will provide a more substantive appeal to the fund. Something tangible to go along with the market. Ill elaborate further, later, after i've done some research in game.
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Rogueresearch
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Posted - 2011.06.07 18:11:00 -
[27]
Anybody who talks about 'working a second region' has no clue how trading works.
This is about as scammy as it gets.
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Roguehalo
Caldari
Roguehalo Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2011.06.07 18:15:00 -
[28]
So I log in for the 1st time in months and I'm asked what character I want to log.......so I type Roguehalo and I get logged in to Rogueresearch.
How hard is it for CCP to make character login default settings stick?
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Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Command Intelligence Security
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Posted - 2011.06.07 19:30:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Caliph Muhammed on 07/06/2011 19:34:39
Originally by: Roguehalo
Anybody who talks about 'working a second region' has no clue how trading works.
This is about as scammy as it gets.
If I buy in A and sell to C would expanding into B not make sense? Anyway, the simple solution if you find it unacceptable is don't invest.
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Strrog
Caldari
Zero Excavations
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Posted - 2011.06.08 12:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Rogueresearch
Anybody who talks about 'working a second region' has no clue how trading works.
This is about as scammy as it gets.
I once did it in 4 regions, hauling from jita, profit margins were between 20-35%.
So what so scammy about it?
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