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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2011.06.10 12:45:00 -
[31]
My money would be on canes too. But dont forget its 2v1 and there isnt many battleships, that can solo 2 well piloted bcs. In fact, armor cane with mwd, ab, scram and web can easily get under tracking of most turret bses. And most bcs can mitigate significant amount of dps just with scram and web.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.10 15:29:00 -
[32]
Hyperion is mediocre. It needs a scout(2 man fleet) but add to many more people to the group and a BS fleet would be better comprised of ships with buffer and RR(5 man fleet). Get much larger than that and you should just use a set of logis to run reps (~15 man fleet).
The tempest is a better shield bs between the speed difference the two neuts it carries and the utility of 800mm ac.
The 7.5% rep bonus is not good for Gallente. Self-rep-armor is a tiny niche.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.06.10 16:26:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ephiel RoF bonus would be countereffective - its more cap usage.
no no, you're not thinking too much.
consider the fact that a 25% RoF bonus is similar to a second 33% damage bonus on top of the 25% damage bonus the ship has. now consider the repercussions in terms of raw damage output the ship would give.
all that considered, a RoF bonus in a blaster boat is sorta self-balanced since you gain massive damage boost for a huge hit on cap.
in the end the hyperion would be a ship capable of dealing large amounts of damage but only able to sustain it for a short period of time. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Ephiel
Gallente Hello Kitty Space Marines Ewoks
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Posted - 2011.06.10 16:51:00 -
[34]
Sure but i think dmg is the one point where we can all agree the hyperion does enough. electrons and neutrons the same. But the problem is that you cant survive a fight long enough to be versatile. more dmg with less survive time would push the hyper into an even smaller niche. And stations docking games arent pvp in my opinion. if you want to gank one undocking by pressing even more dmg on him in a short time then get some folks with you. The Hyperion is a roaming BS trough and through. It needs a specific playstlye that differs from most styles flown today. But it works. It just could need some help surviving a bit longer or get faster into combat range. |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.06.10 17:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ephiel Sure but i think dmg is the one point where we can all agree the hyperion does enough. electrons and neutrons the same. But the problem is that you cant survive a fight long enough to be versatile. more dmg with less survive time would push the hyper into an even smaller niche. And stations docking games arent pvp in my opinion. if you want to gank one undocking by pressing even more dmg on him in a short time then get some folks with you. The Hyperion is a roaming BS trough and through. It needs a specific playstlye that differs from most styles flown today. But it works. It just could need some help surviving a bit longer or get faster into combat range.
hmm... well that is discussable tbh. if I'm not mistaken, a neutron hype with dmg + RoF bonus can border the 2k DPS applied
in hindsight, while you decrease survivability in terms of defensive stance (less ability to run active tanks, if going active), you actually increase survivability on the offensive stance (kill the other guy faster than you).
mobility-wise, the issue is more generalized since it's something that affects every non-frigate blaster ship.
thus why the reason of seeing shield buffer hypes which sacrifice the the armor repping bonus and some tackling capability for extra damage and mobility (and sometimes extra cap stability), and the reason why I think an armor repping bonus is, for all effects and purposes, counter-producent.
in sum, I do believe that significantly increasing the damage potential of a ship like the hyperion by replacing the very situational armour repping bonus for a self-balancing (in the case of energy-dependant weapons like blasters), RoF bonus, you aren't really decreasing ship survivability.
if any the only thing that decreases is strategical mobility, since the ship gets more dependant on cap charges, thus reducing operability range by some margin.
and no, I do not believe that the hyperion (and any other blaster ship above frigate level) do enough damage to offset the huge penalties they have, but this is an issue related to blasters. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.10 20:01:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Grimpak interesting
personally i think a rof would be bad news bears for the hype as its still slow as ****... and making it even more cap hungry wont help...
but changing the ship bonus from 7.5% to repper to a mass reduction bonus for MWD (to increase thier agility and top speed) or a bonus like 10% to armor per level. (so that you dont have to put on plates and armor rigs... or if you do you will have the hp to stick around for enough time to apply the dps)
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.06.10 21:21:00 -
[37]
Originally by: fukier
Originally by: Grimpak interesting
personally i think a rof would be bad news bears for the hype as its still slow as ****... and making it even more cap hungry wont help...
well ever tried a shield hype?
that aside however, making it cap hungry is the balance thing about able to dish out 2k dps. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.10 21:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: fukier
Originally by: Grimpak interesting
personally i think a rof would be bad news bears for the hype as its still slow as ****... and making it even more cap hungry wont help...
well ever tried a shield hype?
that aside however, making it cap hungry is the balance thing about able to dish out 2k dps.
yeah i have tried shiled hypes before... they are good for gate camps and such as they are not slowed down by armor mods but they still rely on someone else tackle as i usually use the mids for tackle gear on the hype as large blasters are lack luster when you look at tracking...
but even with a shield setup you are still pretty slow and will be kited easily... though you did say 25% increase to rof = 33% increase to dps so i would not mind the 5% changed to rof... but still would prefer the secondary bonus for either armor (i dont like too the idea of shield gallente) or a mass reduction bonus for mwd as it would make the hype faster and more agile and imo thats where the ship is lacking... (not in dps but in its ability to apply its dps)
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.06.10 21:58:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Swynet on 10/06/2011 22:05:48
Originally by: Ephiel Sure but i think dmg is the one point where we can all agree the hyperion does enough. electrons and neutrons the same. But the problem is that you cant survive a fight long enough to be versatile. more dmg with less survive time would push the hyper into an even smaller niche. And stations docking games arent pvp in my opinion. if you want to gank one undocking by pressing even more dmg on him in a short time then get some folks with you. The Hyperion is a roaming BS trough and through. It needs a specific playstlye that differs from most styles flown today. But it works. It just could need some help surviving a bit longer or get faster into combat range.
Out of the different issues you my have against ships with high resist in these particular dmg types such kin/therm the biggest issues of the hype is his buffer, then add the ridiculous tracking of blasters and you make the most mediocre BS ever out there.
Just to be sure you understand what I mean, fir some cane with meta 4 425mm autocanons and simple ammo like fusion (vs armor) or EMP (vs shields) or Phased plasma overall not bad for both.
Then take an Brutix and fit it with a full rack of neutrons...oups you can't OK then try electrons and fit buffer and fit mwd
Go to any belt and try to hit some rats, try it has mutch has you think it's good enough for you and realise the mobility your ship need to have to get in contact to those rats and how many times you'll miserably miss them.
Take the cane post yourself in the middle and wait the rats, shoot at 20Km or 3km and feel the power.
Blasters are fine? -search where is the mistake, and this is only at Med size, at BS size it gets worst. The Hype sucks? -hell yeah. Is it possible so succeed with? OC you can like with any scrapmetal and even with an hulk you can succeed, bring lots of friends doing the biggest job for you and you'll allways succeed, you don't need skills or ubber fit, all you need is aproach and hit F1 -in this case the hype is certainly "whooooo ouch" super bs, you must have one.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.06.10 22:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: fukier
yeah i have tried shiled hypes before... they are good for gate camps and such as they are not slowed down by armor mods but they still rely on someone else tackle as i usually use the mids for tackle gear on the hype as large blasters are lack luster when you look at tracking...
but even with a shield setup you are still pretty slow and will be kited easily... though you did say 25% increase to rof = 33% increase to dps so i would not mind the 5% changed to rof... but still would prefer the secondary bonus for either armor (i dont like too the idea of shield gallente) or a mass reduction bonus for mwd as it would make the hype faster and more agile and imo thats where the ship is lacking... (not in dps but in its ability to apply its dps)
A nano hype can easily keep pace with a bog standard cane
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.10 23:15:00 -
[41]
Originally by: baltec1
A nano hype can easily keep pace with a bog standard cane
just did a quick eft and you are correct ends up as a blaster cannon but good job you can even fit nuetron on it.. but no tackle... and still bad tracking...
but imagine if the ship had armor amount bonus... you could drop the shield tank and slap on some tackle... or if you had the mwd mass reduction bonus you could drop the speed rigs and nanos and put on armor tank or if you like add an even better nano setup... which would make the ship epic imo...
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RC Denton
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Posted - 2011.06.10 23:21:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Ephiel Sure but i think dmg is the one point where we can all agree the hyperion does enough. electrons and neutrons the same. But the problem is that you cant survive a fight long enough to be versatile. more dmg with less survive time would push the hyper into an even smaller niche. And stations docking games arent pvp in my opinion. if you want to gank one undocking by pressing even more dmg on him in a short time then get some folks with you. The Hyperion is a roaming BS trough and through. It needs a specific playstlye that differs from most styles flown today. But it works. It just could need some help surviving a bit longer or get faster into combat range.
hmm... well that is discussable tbh. if I'm not mistaken, a neutron hype with dmg + RoF bonus can border the 2k DPS applied
in hindsight, while you decrease survivability in terms of defensive stance (less ability to run active tanks, if going active), you actually increase survivability on the offensive stance (kill the other guy faster than you).
mobility-wise, the issue is more generalized since it's something that affects every non-frigate blaster ship.
thus why the reason of seeing shield buffer hypes which sacrifice the the armor repping bonus and some tackling capability for extra damage and mobility (and sometimes extra cap stability), and the reason why I think an armor repping bonus is, for all effects and purposes, counter-producent.
in sum, I do believe that significantly increasing the damage potential of a ship like the hyperion by replacing the very situational armour repping bonus for a self-balancing (in the case of energy-dependant weapons like blasters), RoF bonus, you aren't really decreasing ship survivability.
if any the only thing that decreases is strategical mobility, since the ship gets more dependant on cap charges, thus reducing operability range by some margin.
and no, I do not believe that the hyperion (and any other blaster ship above frigate level) do enough damage to offset the huge penalties they have, but this is an issue related to blasters.
I think you're making a mistake in assuming that the two bonus's (ROF vs tank) scale in a linear fashion. Instead I think it's more of a step function because by decreasing the tank you're making it that much harder to get into blaster range. And if you can't get into range you won't be able to apply the big DPS. I would give it an MWD bonus and make it like a big thorax.
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Adacia Calla
Minmatar Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita
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Posted - 2011.06.11 00:56:00 -
[43]
It's a blasterboat with no tracking bonus. That's why it's bad :/
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Somal Thunder
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.11 02:13:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Adacia Calla It's a blasterboat with no tracking bonus. That's why it's bad :/
Get a mega with no repping bonus then
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.06.11 08:39:00 -
[45]
Originally by: fukier
Originally by: baltec1
A nano hype can easily keep pace with a bog standard cane
just did a quick eft and you are correct ends up as a blaster cannon but good job you can even fit nuetron on it.. but no tackle... and still bad tracking...
but imagine if the ship had armor amount bonus... you could drop the shield tank and slap on some tackle... or if you had the mwd mass reduction bonus you could drop the speed rigs and nanos and put on armor tank or if you like add an even better nano setup... which would make the ship epic imo...
Tracking is simply a matter of positioning your ship and a well flown recon
But armour tanking for me is a no no seeing as I fly in shield gangs with scimi most of the time. Tackle is also not high on my list as thats what cepters, dictors and cruisers are for. A ROF bounus rather than armour would be welcome but people do enjoy the active armour setups. I am quite happy with what I have in all honesty and if people manage to get blasters buffed then all the more power for me
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Baneken
Gallente The New Knighthood Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 20:46:00 -
[46]
Bad about hype is that it's also near useless in PvE, even with maxed out skills you can barely squeeze in a rack of 425mm rails and an adequate tank; then you realize that a humble Dominix that has 3x less a price tag actually beats Hyperion in both PvE and PvP.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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