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Liam Marx
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Posted - 2011.06.10 04:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Liam Marx on 10/06/2011 05:00:40
Edited by: Liam Marx on 10/06/2011 04:53:08
For those of you who don't know how margin or "futures" trading works, let me give you a simple example.
You place a buy order with money borrowed from a brokerage and the seller gets the full amount you posted for the buy. You then attempt to sell your commodities at a higher price to cover your margin: http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Buy+on+Margin
In this case, the seller ACTUALLY RECEIVES the promised amount and the buyer is left on the hook to pay back the difference. In cases where the buyer doesn't have the money on hand, his personal inventory or his license to sell is at risk for the FULL AMOUNT.
Eve's version of a market order is the same as a really bad used car salesman. "I'm buy all these cars for INSANE Prices!" Then, then when you show up to sell the car, the salesman goes "Oh, sorry... I don't have the cash for that!" and tells you to **** off. But then they have a buddy waiting there for you to sell your stuff at dirt cheap prices cause you're ****ed off.
So in essence, the Margin Trading skill on eve is a license to scam from CCP. This needs to be changed now. At the VERY least, the seller should get the escrow amount that the buyer had to post AND get keep the items.
To be truly accurate, the buyer should be on the hook to EVE for the full amount and the seller should get what is promised via the market. Otherwise, the market is a lying sack of **** thanks to CCP and can't be trusted. Therefore, the market will fall... and no market driven economy... and no CCP
edit:
tl;dr "Margin Trading" on Eve is a way to steal approximately %66 of the money from a trade because it only requires 24% to post an item for sale and a 10% penalty for not covering the trade.... If you post items that are at least 34% less expensive than your buy order, you can steal tons of money because the market doesn't differentiate between margin and real orders.
TRADER WARNING: Never try to satisfy an order that can only be completed with more than 24% of the requested item because it's a CCP approved scam.
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.06.10 04:57:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Lady Spank on 10/06/2011 04:59:32
Confirming this is the only legitimate use for this skill and CCP should stop all scamming activity in this game.
EDIT: Oh lol the last bit... Eve is dying, and has been since 2003.
Get a clue noob
~~~
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.10 04:58:00 -
[3]
Your stuff, can I have it? 
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CanIHave YourStuff
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Posted - 2011.06.10 05:01:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Hexxx
Your stuff, can I have it?
This guy has margin trading V, do not trust this scammer. I however will PROMISE to take your stuff.
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Liam Marx
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Posted - 2011.06.10 05:04:00 -
[5]
No you can't... :D
I have other people I may give it to if I decide to leave.
And no, its not intended to stop all scamming. However as the market is the core of this game, finding out that it lies is quite disturbing. I can understand contract scamming where people don't take time to read... but if a sell order is presented as legitimate, it should be satisfied.
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Manda Rin
Minmatar
Sexy Thoughts
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Posted - 2011.06.10 05:07:00 -
[6]
Your TL;DR is funny. You seem confused.
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Liam Marx
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Posted - 2011.06.10 05:09:00 -
[7]
34% + 66% == 100%
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Manda Rin
Minmatar
Sexy Thoughts
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Posted - 2011.06.10 05:13:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Liam Marx
34% + 66% == 100%
I didn't say your numeracy was bad but thanks for proving you are clueless.
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The Illustrious Juden
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Posted - 2011.06.10 05:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Manda Rin
Originally by: Liam Marx
34% + 66% == 100%
I didn't say your numeracy was bad but thanks for proving you are clueless.
I wonder who explained it to him
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Liam Marx
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Posted - 2011.06.10 05:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: The Illustrious Juden
I wonder who explained it to him
..OP how did you gather this knowledge?
GM after I was wondering why a sale I made wasn't completed even though I satisfied all the requirements.
In other words, CCP gave them a license to abuse the market. :D
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Graic Valente
Gallente
Valente Galactic Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.10 06:15:00 -
[11]
Should they also ban skills that allow players to train to fit bait ships?
Sorry, I'm being a bit silly. Yes, it can be abused, however if deals are too good to be true - guess what.
Contracts can be abused, in station training can be abused, heck you can even set up external web sites to promote "banks" that can be abused. There are probably big signs in CCP reading, "SELF ABUSE, YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO.".
EVE is not a safe place. Even in station. |
Joxxy
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Posted - 2011.06.10 07:04:00 -
[12]
So ummm.... sucks to be you :D
In other news - as soon as buyer sells stuff or in any way receives ISK you will get 100% of ISK that you sold stuff for.
Enjoy ...
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.10 07:37:00 -
[13]
i'd like to propose removal of Intelligence attribute from EVE. it's obviously not working.
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: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Doeko
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Posted - 2011.06.10 07:45:00 -
[14]
The legitimate use for this skill (which by the way is totally uncomparable to real life futures or margin trading and should not be named such. Having more buy orders than you could carry if you were filled has NOTHING to do with "margin trading") is to be able to carry more buy orders acrosss more markets where you don't expect to be filled all at once. This way you can improve your chances of getting a "cheap" fill by being active across the board. Of course you shouldn't do this if you get filled quickly on all orders at the same time because then you won't have any ISK left which might be a problem (as you might not even be able to pay for the transacion tax then to unload your stuff again).
Anyway, yes you can "scam" with it and I do think that it's an illegitimate use of it which should be fixed by CCP in some way. For example by, if you get a fill which you cannot afford, first cancelling the buyer's other buy orders to get the escrow back and if that does not cover it by selling off assets from his hangar to buy orders (max ~15% below average prices otherwise it would be a bit unfair) and if all that doesn't cover it, well then you, the buyer, will have to carry the burden.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.10 08:01:00 -
[15]
While we're banning dangerous things let's also ban the sale of all those guns and missiles launchers.
Oh wait, I forgot -
killing - ok
piracy - ok
war - ok
corp theft - ok
ganking - ok
trading - immoral
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Doeko
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Posted - 2011.06.10 08:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
trading - immoral
It's an unfair information as(s)ymetry when the buyer knows the order is fake and the seller doesn't.
Also there are penalties for killing in high sec (security status loss) and corp theft isn't really a CCP-invented feature, just something that happens. Your comparisons are infantile at best.
If you want to have unrestricted margin buy orders in 0.0 be my guest, but in high sec there should be penalties for failure on the buyer's part (possibly what I mentioned above) just as there are penalties for every other gameplay-related type of griefing in anything but null-sec.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.10 08:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Doeko
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
trading - immoral
It's an unfair information as(s)ymetry when the buyer knows the order is fake and the seller doesn't.
Dude, information asymmetry is MEANT to make the deal rigged.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Joxxy
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Posted - 2011.06.10 08:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Doeko
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
trading - immoral
It's an unfair information as(s)ymetry when the buyer knows the order is fake and the seller doesn't.
Also there are penalties for killing in high sec (security status loss) and corp theft isn't really a CCP-invented feature, just something that happens. Your comparisons are infantile at best.
If you want to have unrestricted margin buy orders in 0.0 be my guest, but in high sec there should be penalties for failure on the buyer's part (possibly what I mentioned above) just as there are penalties for every other gameplay-related type of griefing in anything but null-sec.
Let me put it in more simple terms ...
I buy XY for 5 mil, yet I have 2 mil in my wallet.
My wallet is now at 0.
Seller* received 2 mil.
I go ahead and sell XY item for 6 mil. I get 3 mil in wallet and seller* receives 3 mil.
Or I dont sell said item, but get ISK from any other source, missing 3 million will be deposited into sellers* wallet and rest into mine.
So its NOT scamming. Since you cant keep both ISK and items. In the end you WILL pay what you bought.
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Doeko
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Posted - 2011.06.10 08:32:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Doeko
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
trading - immoral
It's an unfair information as(s)ymetry when the buyer knows the order is fake and the seller doesn't.
Dude, information asymmetry is MEANT to make the deal rigged.
There are fair information asymmetries as well. For example if I know that there will be a large scale destruction of a certain item in the near future. The reason this is fair is because it is in theory possible for anyone to know that with the right information network (remember insider trading isn't an issue in commodities markets).
If you can predict demand based on the fact that there is no real demand (because the demand is you and you are fake) while it is impossible for anyone else to know that (except via educated guess) then that is an unfair information asymmetry.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.10 08:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hexxx
Your stuff, can I have it?
I suspect CCP scammed him out of all his good stuff.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.10 09:42:00 -
[21]
OP - you DO realize that you're NOT actually getting the items when the order bounces, do you ?!?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Doeko
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Posted - 2011.06.10 10:09:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Akita T
OP - you DO realize that you're NOT actually getting the items when the order bounces, do you ?!?
lolwut? A sell order can't bounce.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.06.10 11:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Doeko
Originally by: Akita T
OP - you DO realize that you're NOT actually getting the items when the order bounces, do you ?!?
lolwut? A sell order can't bounce.
The buy order disappeared and the OP's sell order failed.
I think what Akita T is saying that neither money nor goods changed hands so how can it be a scam?
Or more precisely, the scam actually happened when the OP bought some stuff at inflated prices thinking he was going to make an easy profit. But for some reason he didn't want to bring his own stupidity into the discussion.
Lesson #1: If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
Lesson #2: If you can't figure out why it is too good to be true, stay the bleep away.
Lesson #3: If you come to MD looking for sympathy after not after not following #1 and #2 you will not find it here.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.10 11:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Doeko
Originally by: Akita T
OP - you DO realize that you're NOT actually getting the items when the order bounces, do you ?!?
lolwut? A sell order can't bounce.
A sell order has nothing to do with margin trading either.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Locar Quilus
Amarr
Banana On A Plate
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Posted - 2011.06.10 11:45:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Locar Quilus on 10/06/2011 11:49:04
-----------------------
Signature image removed. If you wish to inquire, please email [email protected] with a link to your signature. Thanks, Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.10 12:09:00 -
[26]
Quote:
The reason this is fair is because it is in theory possible for anyone to know that with the right information network (remember insider trading isn't an issue in commodities markets).
If it is possible for anyone to know, then it's not asymmetry enough.
If it takes the "right information newtwork" then it's not fair any longer, since it's exactly your case and you say it's unfair.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Strrog
Caldari
Zero Excavations
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Posted - 2011.06.10 12:10:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
While we're banning dangerous things let's also ban the sale of all those guns and missiles launchers.
Oh wait, I forgot -
killing - ok
piracy - ok
war - ok
corp theft - ok
ganking - ok
trading - immoral
KEK =)
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Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2011.06.10 12:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Doeko
The legitimate use for this skill (which by the way is totally uncomparable to real life futures or margin trading and should not be named such. Having more buy orders than you could carry if you were filled has NOTHING to do with "margin trading")
Wouldn't you say that the margin trading-skill in eve simulates the expansion of ones investment capital much like how real life leveraging lets one invest beyond ones personal capital aka margin trading?
I don't see a problem with the name of the skill. Even tho the penalties might be less severe than irl the same basic mechanic of margin trading seem to be implemented.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.10 12:42:00 -
[29]
Meh, in a way, "Margin Trading" is indeed not quite properly descriptive... but then again, what WOULD be more appropriate ? "Deposit Haggling" ? "Escrow Reduction" ? Doesn't sound that much better, and doesn't really describe it in that much more detail either.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.06.10 12:55:00 -
[30]
Throwing away a lovely skill wich is damn handy for a lot of traders because you are too stupid ,lazy or probably both to press the graph history and check the item is not a 1000 times overpriced?
No thank you.
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