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Is it time to revisit the Dread ban in Hi sec?

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Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.11 23:01:00 - [1] Other than the mechanics issues involved with changing cynos, is there any valid reason in current EvE to not allow Dreads in Hi sec? What do you think and why? I personally think that Dreads should be allowed to fly freely. CONCORD is impossible to tank, Hi Sec POS owners do need a reason to be paranoid, and none of the Dreads are going to be used for suicide ganking and such since they cost so much. In addition, the lack of carrier support will make them more vulnerable to other fleets without making them a guaranteed kill like they are in low/null sec. With their increased mobility and usability, Dread popularity will increase, plus it will give smaller alliances a way to build a somewhat capable capital fleet without risking the wrath of khan before they are ready to actually use it. Other buff ideas notwithstanding, this relatively simple change could go a long way to helping Dreads increase in relative popularity. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Lykouleon Bad Kitty Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.06.12 00:41:00 - [2] Why would the sovereign nations of EVE allow ships that can spread large-scale destruction roam freely through their most populated star systems? Especially when some are at war with each other currently? Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO THAT I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD
Obsidian Hawk RONA Legion RONA Directorate	Posted - 2011.06.12 01:02:00 - [3] You cant mine moon goo in high sec, therefore no reason to have dreads in high sec.
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.12 01:29:00 - [4] Dread's in Highsec. You don't need Moon Goo to make this plausible. There are plenty of POS after all, and I'm sure they'd be much easier to take down with a nice Dread. Think of all those BPC farmers, and how they just continuously research and manufacture all the time. That's kinda like Moon Goo, and they have the ability to heavily impact the market while providing heavy competition for non-POS industrialists. Reason for Dreads? Yes. Not high on my priorities list, but it wouldn't bother me if it happened.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.12 03:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Lykouleon Why would the sovereign nations of EVE allow ships that can spread large-scale destruction roam freely through their most populated star systems? Lore? That hasn't mattered since 2005. Quote: Especially when some are at war with each other currently? All the more reason to provide a more effective method of killing enemy POSes. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.12 03:56:00 - [6] If SCs are not addressed, then Dreads in HighSec may not be such a bad idea. They've been rather marginalized in that respect. Having them romp about high sec ... why not. Of course if this happens, there will be hundreds of them roaming around high sec, some of them looking for tasty POSes run by industrial people that could care less about PVP with guns. So, I would suggest that they could not enter seige mode in high sec. This will somewhat balance out the general nature of high sec activities with dread capabilities. The Real Space Initiative - V7
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2011.06.12 04:12:00 - [7] Not supported. Why? Imagine THIS as a neutral repper: [Moros - Repanaught] [Lows] Damage Control Unit II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Power Diagnostic Unit II Capital Remote Repair Unit I Capital Remote Repair Unit I [Mids] Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II [Highs] Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Shield Transporter I Siege Module I [Rigs] Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I [Drones] Heavy Armor Bots II x 5 With all level 5 skills: - Gets about 1.5 mil EHP with 73, 65, 65, 51 resistances. - Local tank reps about 3.4k damage per second while in Triage Mode - Can rep about 600 DPS in armor and 300 in shields (plus drones). Now you have the imagine... add several more. Capital ships, regardless of what their specialty is, are HUGE force multiplies and require ACTUAL effort to take down... more than what your average nubbin is able to muster. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.12 04:24:00 - [8] Originally by: ShahFluffers Not supported. Why? Imagine THIS as a neutral repper: [Moros - Repanaught] [Lows] Damage Control Unit II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Power Diagnostic Unit II Capital Remote Repair Unit I Capital Remote Repair Unit I [Mids] Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II [Highs] Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Shield Transporter I Siege Module I [Rigs] Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I [Drones] Heavy Armor Bots II x 5 With all level 5 skills: - Gets about 1.5 mil EHP with 73, 65, 65, 51 resistances. - Local tank reps about 3.4k damage per second while in Triage Mode - Can rep about 600 DPS in armor and 300 in shields (plus drones). Now you have the imagine... add several more. Capital ships, regardless of what their specialty is, are HUGE force multiplies and require ACTUAL effort to take down... more than what your average nubbin is able to muster. Alright, first of all, 16.5 km is not a really long range. Locking yourself down to improve your local tank also disables any RR you might receive and I'd personally like to know how you got Remote Reps in the low slots. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2011.06.12 04:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Val'Dore Alright, first of all, 16.5 km is not a really long range. Locking yourself down to improve your local tank also disables any RR you might receive and I'd personally like to know how you got Remote Reps in the low slots. It's actually 15km for capital remote reps... but that's still far enough to rep any ship in the undock area. And the idea of the fit is that you GIVE remote reps to ships while absorbing damage... not to receive them itself (unless you are thinking of "pantheon"/"spider-tanking" fits, in which case GL killing 3 or so dreds without a "good number" of battleships). Also, the fit reads from low slots to high slots. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.12 06:25:00 - [10] Originally by: ShahFluffers Originally by: Val'Dore Alright, first of all, 16.5 km is not a really long range. Locking yourself down to improve your local tank also disables any RR you might receive and I'd personally like to know how you got Remote Reps in the low slots. It's actually 15km for capital remote reps... Well if you aren't using this... Quote: but that's still far enough to rep any ship in the undock area. And the idea of the fit is that you GIVE remote reps to ships while absorbing damage... not to receive them itself (unless you are thinking of "pantheon"/"spider-tanking" fits, in which case GL killing 3 or so dreds without a "good number" of battleships). I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure your Moros would cap out very fast trying to do all that. And with the limited range on the reps, in addition to being anchored, it won't be that useful overall. Quote: Also, the fit reads from low slots to high slots. Originally by: ShahFluffers [Lows] Damage Control Unit II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Power Diagnostic Unit II Capital Remote Repair Unit I Capital Remote Repair Unit I ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Rip Minner ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries	Posted - 2011.06.12 07:53:00 - [11] I dont realy see a problem with this you got my vote. But I would reather see them kick Super Caps out of low sec and let that be the main kicking grounds for None super caps. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
debbie harrio	Posted - 2011.06.12 11:38:00 - [12] Awful idea, neutral RR is bad enough but at least you can send them scurrying back into station with a little dps, try that with a neutral dread. Quote: Hi Sec POS owners do need a reason to be paranoid If you can't take a POS down in hi sec, well tough, get more dps or friends, they are SUPPOSED to be difficult to take down. In Null the moons have resources, creating conflict, in Hi sec you have none. Quote: and none of the Dreads are going to be used for suicide ganking and such since they cost so much Oh really, why is that? about 700 mill after insurance is peanuts compared to a full of technetium JF. Quote: Other buff ideas notwithstanding, this relatively simple change could go a long way to helping Dreads increase in relative popularity. The reason dreads are unpopular is because people are frightened of losing them, a 200 man dread fleet although not a counter could easily kill 10-15 Supercarriers off field before they died, the isk value is around the same but they have a time advantage now, dreads are far easier and quicker to produce than Supercaps. The reason you don't see dreads fielded is just through fear and not because they are not viable.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.06.12 12:17:00 - [13] Can ask the exxact same question in reverse: Is there any valid reason to allow them back? High-sec POS are almost exclusively used for invention as far as I have seen so the value of tearing them down is minimal. If you want to make them easier/safer to knock down then just double the fitting requirement of all POS mods if in 0.5+. For logistics purposes I can see them making a re-entry, but it would be without being able to activate capital mods while there (ie. travel only).
Rawbone Gallente S3MINAL FLUID Imperial 0rder	Posted - 2011.06.12 16:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Val'Dore With their increased mobility and usability, Dread popularity will increase, plus it will give smaller alliances a way to build a somewhat capable capital fleet without risking the wrath of khan before they are ready to actually use it. Other buff ideas notwithstanding, this relatively simple change could go a long way to helping Dreads increase in relative popularity. While I agree that you should get more use out of your dread, your suggestion that it will actually help small alliances is laughable. Dreads can be built in .4 space, out of reach from pos bashing mega alliances. any alliance in empire that has the isk to build a cap fleet, can do so with ease and in safety. Small alliances would actually be the most victimized here as they try to build assets for an eventual cap fleet only to have privateers, orphanage or any number of high sec pvp wannabes, use their own dreads to either extort them into poverty or pound them into submission. Not supported
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.12 16:54:00 - [15] Stupid idea ,if you want to take down a pos gather a fleet then. This change would make it impossible to any small corp to hold a pos at all. Tell me what could a 10 or less member corps could do vs 10+ dreads+support , like nothing,as only they could fight due to concord would def the dread fleet vs anybody who isnt wardecked.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2011.06.12 16:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Val'Dore It's actually 15km for capital remote reps... Well if you aren't using this... Let's be realistic. The meta capital mods cost somewhere in the range of several hundred million ISK. The base version costs a paltry 30 to 50 mil. Which are you more likely to see? Originally by: Val'Dore I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure your Moros would cap out very fast trying to do all that. And with the limited range on the reps, in addition to being anchored, it won't be that useful overall. With level 5 skills it caps out in 1 minute 32 seconds. But that's only IF you are running absolutely everything. While in Triage Mode a dred gets a bonus to local armor repping amount so you only have to pulse those armor reps every now and again. Plus, most station campers just want to be kept alive long enough to deaggro and dock up when the situation turns on them. This kind of dred with its massive EHP "wall" will greatly assist in that (it can't be forced out of the fight). And yeah... I made a mistake on the fit (typed it out manually). Still, you know to what I was referring to. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Herping yourDerp	Posted - 2011.06.12 17:34:00 - [17] only purpose of dreads in highsec are nub highsec wars and neut repping. so no thank you
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.12 17:54:00 - [18] Originally by: debbie harrio Awful idea, neutral RR is bad enough but at least you can send them scurrying back into station with a little dps, try that with a neutral dread. Or just disable capital remote reps on anything not also fitting a Triage module. Quote: Quote: Hi Sec POS owners do need a reason to be paranoid If you can't take a POS down in hi sec, well tough, get more dps or friends, they are SUPPOSED to be difficult to take down. It is not a matter of ability. Quote: Quote: and none of the Dreads are going to be used for suicide ganking and such since they cost so much Oh really, why is that? about 700 mill after insurance is peanuts compared to a full of technetium JF. If you find a JF full of anything that actually sticks around long enough to be targeted by a Dread, you could have killed it with a Destroyer blob. Quote: Quote: Other buff ideas notwithstanding, this relatively simple change could go a long way to helping Dreads increase in relative popularity. The reason dreads are unpopular is because people are frightened of losing them, a 200 man dread fleet although not a counter could easily kill 10-15 Supercarriers off field before they died, the isk value is around the same but they have a time advantage now, dreads are far easier and quicker to produce than Supercaps. So what are the Dread pilots flying? Carriers and Supercarriers. If you had a choice between a Hel/Nidhoggur and any Dread, would you realistically choose the Dread? No, why would you? The Hel/Nid are considered the worst of the Carriers in general. Yet nobody would choose any of the Dreads over either of them for normal pvp operations. Quote: The reason you don't see dreads fielded is just through fear and not because they are not viable. Do you have any evidence of that? Dreads cost much more than Carriers and Carriers are just as vulnerable, yet I never see a shortage of Carriers. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Can ask the exxact same question in reverse: Is there any valid reason to allow them back? Yes. Quote: High-sec POS are almost exclusively used for invention as far as I have seen so the value of tearing them down is minimal. That doesn't mean there is no value in it. Some people do things for RP and not necessarily ISK. Quote: If you want to make them easier/safer to knock down then just double the fitting requirement of all POS mods if in 0.5+. I actually want them to be harder to knock down. Thus the Dreads. Dreads will force POSes to be stronger and better defended. Quote: For logistics purposes I can see them making a re-entry, but it would be without being able to activate capital mods while there (ie. travel only). Maybe and maybe not. But doing that for Dreads only wouldn't make sense since they would still be relatively useless. Originally by: Rawbone While I agree that you should get more use out of your dread, your suggestion that it will actually help small alliances is laughable. No, not really. Quote: Dreads can be built in .4 space, out of reach from pos bashing mega alliances. any alliance in empire that has the isk to build a cap fleet, can do so with ease and in safety. Small alliances would actually be the most victimized here as they try to build assets for an eventual cap fleet only to have privateers, orphanage or any number of high sec pvp wannabes, use their own dreads to either extort them into poverty or pound them into submission. If they can't handle that, then they will be slaughtered in low/null anyway. I'd consider it a test of will and practice for the 'real' thing. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.12 17:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Naomi Knight Stupid idea ,if you want to take down a pos gather a fleet then. This change would make it impossible to any small corp to hold a pos at all. Hardly, there are countless POSes in low sec that have nothing to fear. Why would hi sec be so much more dangerous? Quote: Tell me what could a 10 or less member corps could do vs 10+ dreads+support , like nothing,as only they could fight due to concord would def the dread fleet vs anybody who isnt wardecked. Well, it isn't impossible to defeat that. But if someone is going to run a POS valuable enough to be a target, you better be able to defend it yourself. I have no pity for people who deliberately avoid taking responsibility for their own safety. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.12 18:09:00 - [20] Originally by: Val'Dore Originally by: Naomi Knight Stupid idea ,if you want to take down a pos gather a fleet then. This change would make it impossible to any small corp to hold a pos at all. Hardly, there are countless POSes in low sec that have nothing to fear. Why would hi sec be so much more dangerous? Quote: Tell me what could a 10 or less member corps could do vs 10+ dreads+support , like nothing,as only they could fight due to concord would def the dread fleet vs anybody who isnt wardecked. Well, it isn't impossible to defeat that. But if someone is going to run a POS valuable enough to be a target, you better be able to defend it yourself. I have no pity for people who deliberately avoid taking responsibility for their own safety. In low-sec most pos are in big alliances alt posession , and anybody can counter drop a dread fleet anytime without a need for wardec --> ppl dont attack pos just to kill it / small money income. With your idea ,in high sec nothing could threaten the dread fleet due to wardec is needed , I'm sure you would be a pussiest player fielding your alli dreads in high sec when you are wardecked by a larger alli, who could easily counterdrop you. You would just wardec small corps and kill their posses knowing that they cant do anything at all to save it. If they want help their friends have to wardec you first-> plenty time to ***** hide your dreads ,what is that if not the biggest deliberately avoidance taking any kind of risk? I know you are just another "pirate" wannabe who wants to blow things up without any risk involved. Hiding it behing some capital balance+ RP thing...
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2011.06.12 19:11:00 - [21] I appreciate that all you poor dread pilots out there are saddened at your ships being made almost completely redundant by supercarriers, but I don't think this is the way forwards. If supercarriers are nerfed a bit (especially in their POS-bashing capacity) there'll be much more for you to do. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
debbie harrio	Posted - 2011.06.12 19:32:00 - [22] Quote: It is not a matter of ability. Of course it is, in whatever security space you are in, you use the tools available, there are plenty of pos in Hi sec that get blown up. Quote: If you find a JF full of anything that actually sticks around long enough to be targeted by a Dread, you could have killed it with a Destroyer blob. Do you actually know how to stop someone from warping away, a corp mate can bump it so it never aligns. Quote: So what are the Dread pilots flying? Carriers and Supercarriers. If you had a choice between a Hel/Nidhoggur and any Dread, would you realistically choose the Dread? No, why would you? The Hel/Nid are considered the worst of the Carriers in general. Yet nobody would choose any of the Dreads over either of them for normal pvp operations. you do realise that most dread/supercap pilots are alts and not the players main. If the NC had called for all dread pilots to get on and suicided fleets into the supercap blob when they were attacked the enemy would have no means to replace them to carry on momentum, as It said it takes balls and a good reimbursement policy but it takes 2 weeks to rebuild a dread and you can make them in stations, so a very cost effective way to beat a supercap blob.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.06.12 19:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Val'Dore That doesn't mean there is no value in it. Some people do things for RP and not necessarily ISK. So in order to cater to the 0.5% of the population (high-sec RP corps) you want to give the 99.5% remaining (griefer corps) a free ride? As much as I want RP to matter more than it does, I am not willing to chop off my limbs and sell my organs to get it. Originally by: Val'Dore Maybe and maybe not. But doing that for Dreads only wouldn't make sense since they would still be relatively useless. Once you allow for cynos you allow carriers and dreads in both .. didn't think that needed saying, but 'meh' The whole trend of bigger/more being better is sucking the fun out of the game and should be discouraged in all areas. Kicking caps out of high-sec was the best things that has ever happened for "real" pew in that sector since their introduction .. partially been replaced by neutral RR abuse and other shenanigans but at least the playing field is relatively even.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.12 23:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Naomi Knight I know you are just another "pirate" wannabe who wants to blow things up without any risk involved. Hiding it behing some capital balance+ RP thing... You should be wary of making assumptions. They tend to make you look foolish. Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro I appreciate that all you poor dread pilots out there are saddened at your ships being made almost completely redundant by supercarriers, but I don't think this is the way forwards. If supercarriers are nerfed a bit (especially in their POS-bashing capacity) there'll be much more for you to do. Well to be honest, the Dread buff I proposed first was far more interesting and went far more to actually fixing them. Originally by: debbie harrio Quote: It is not a matter of ability. Of course it is, in whatever security space you are in, you use the tools available, there are plenty of pos in Hi sec that get blown up. That statement was in response to the allegation that Dreads in hi sec is being proposed because I can't kill a POS today, which is false. Quote: Quote: If you find a JF full of anything that actually sticks around long enough to be targeted by a Dread, you could have killed it with a Destroyer blob. Do you actually know how to stop someone from warping away, a corp mate can bump it so it never aligns. I wasn't aware you could bump it from jumping. Quote: Quote: So what are the Dread pilots flying? Carriers and Supercarriers. If you had a choice between a Hel/Nidhoggur and any Dread, would you realistically choose the Dread? No, why would you? The Hel/Nid are considered the worst of the Carriers in general. Yet nobody would choose any of the Dreads over either of them for normal pvp operations. you do realise that most dread/supercap pilots are alts and not the players main. Yes, and what the frack do you think those alts do when they aren't giving away Dread killmails? Quote: If the NC had called for all dread pilots to get on and suicided fleets into the supercap blob when they were attacked the enemy would have no means to replace them to carry on momentum, as It said it takes balls and a good reimbursement policy but it takes 2 weeks to rebuild a dread and you can make them in stations, so a very cost effective way to beat a supercap blob. I am aware of the theoretical superiority of the Dreadnought Blob over the Supercarrier Blob. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.12 23:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Val'Dore That doesn't mean there is no value in it. Some people do things for RP and not necessarily ISK. So in order to cater to the 0.5% of the population (high-sec RP corps) you want to give the 99.5% remaining (griefer corps) a free ride? Has it not occurred to you that griefer corps might not be willing to take the risk that they will lose these Dreads? Quote: Originally by: Val'Dore Maybe and maybe not. But doing that for Dreads only wouldn't make sense since they would still be relatively useless. Once you allow for cynos you allow carriers and dreads in both .. didn't think that needed saying, but 'meh' CCP has indicated that it is possible to discriminate explicitly which ship can and can't use a certain cyno. Quote: The whole trend of bigger/more being better is sucking the fun out of the game and should be discouraged in all areas. Capitals were a mistake from the beginning. But they are not going away. Quote: Kicking caps out of high-sec was the best things that has ever happened for "real" pew in that sector since their introduction .. partially been replaced by neutral RR abuse and other shenanigans but at least the playing field is relatively even. Hi sec's existance is the main problem with pvp in general ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.06.13 03:07:00 - [26] They already are allowed in, haven't you seen the Veldnaught? Seriously though, I don't know on this. On the one hand, it would be a nice to see some new ships since I don't spend a lot of time in null. On the other hand, the simple power of dreads would potentially **** current HS combat. On the other hand, I would love to loot from a dread that dies outside Jita...
Holland Galebi Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.13 04:41:00 - [27] Edited by: Holland Galebi on 13/06/2011 04:42:58 Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard They already are allowed in, haven't you seen the Veldnaught? Yeah, they were allowed from the very beginning. But after banning capital assemblies in highsec, with some restrictions like no combat use, etc. But with recent changes, you even can't trade your capital in highsec.
salty Milk	Posted - 2011.06.13 10:50:00 - [28] think about all those third rate alliances that are funded by 3 man "invite only" corps how would they every survive if dreads were popping off their untouchaposes in hisec?
Wyke Mossari Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.13 13:16:00 - [29] Ban needs to go further. They should be excluded from all sovereign space.
Ghurthe	Posted - 2011.06.13 13:50:00 - [30] No

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