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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Hexxx on 15/06/2011 16:49:16
So, today CCP has finally announced the ability to monetize third party apps.
edit: added link
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=901
Here's a few things to chew on:
How do you feel about auditing/accounting Software-As-A-Service(SaaS) solutions?
What other meta-services/reporting solutions do you feel would be worth micro-subscriptions in RL currency?
What other MD-centric apps and services do you think could or will benefit from this?
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:43:00 -
[2]
linky?
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:50:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Liberty Eternal
linky?
Linky added via edit. 
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:57:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 15/06/2011 17:00:08
Potentially there are some very large implications - most immediate few that spring to mind are;
i) There will be an increase in such services and websites in general
ii) There will be an increase in investments and offerings on MD of such services and websites
and the big one -
iii) A bank or other financial company in EVE now has an incentive not to scam, if they make more money by staying loyal to their customers than they will by stealing the isk
and of course
iv) A new breed of scams - possibly followed by legal action  - are on the horizon.
Edit: And are you able to clarify the meaning of this?
Originally by: CCP
Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services?
No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.
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Skarii TuThess
East Aridia Trading Company
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:00:00 -
[5]
Quote:
> òInexpensive - $99 per year, no other fees
> Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
> Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Wow.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 15/06/2011 17:00:08
Potentially there are some very large implications - most immediate few that spring to mind are;
and the big one -
iii) A bank or other financial company in EVE now has an incentive not to scam, if they make more money by staying loyal to their customers than they will by stealing the isk
I wrote about that a year ago actually:
[proposal] Banking Evolved: Consequences and Incentives
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Edit: And are you able to clarify the meaning of this?
Originally by: CCP
Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services?
No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.
Well, my first thought was that there's a difference between in-game services and meta services. For example, me paying $5 for Red Frog to haul some Zydrine around for me in-game seems like a no-no. Me paying $5 for a nice pretty report of my wallet transactions using the API is a meta service, and totally fine. Short version, anything using the API is a meta-service. That's my take anyway.
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Tutskii
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:19:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Tutskii on 15/06/2011 17:19:22
I think its a terrible idea.
Doors are being opened that I think, perhaps, shouldn't be.
But who knows.
As for the other answers:
None.
None.
Go make a new disaster, that's what I'm counting on. You're someone else's problem, now I only want you gone...
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1516147 mcv |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:43:00 -
[8]
Here is my take on this clusterf*k
Linkage
Also, this is exploitable like crazy.
"HI, I made this 10 lines API app, now pay me $100".
And on Sykpe: "Ok, here's your RMTed money dude, this CCP idea was BRILLIANT!"
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Linkage
Nice tantrum.
I agree that shooting people with a headache in the head is a good idea, because it will stop their headaches. |
Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Linkage
Nice tantrum.
Wow, so someone could make hundreds or - who knows? - maybe even thousands of dollars of pocket money a year by running a banking website.
Not gonna be you though is it? 
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Ibn Faldan
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Here is my take on this clusterf*k
Linkage
Also, this is exploitable like crazy.
"HI, I made this 10 lines API app, now pay me $100".
And on Sykpe: "Ok, here's your RMTed money dude, this CCP idea was BRILLIANT!"
How is this any different from someone who makes money outside of the game they use to purchase extra ETC and fill their wallet? If I'm clever enough to leverage the EVE API and develop a valuable service around it others are willing to pay for, no one has the right to object to how I use the income derived from it.
Let's applaud CCP for stimulating, not stifling creativity surrounding their hard work.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Not gonna be you though is it?
Challenge accepted.
I agree that shooting people with a headache in the head is a good idea, because it will stop their headaches. |
Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Skarii TuThess
Quote:
> òInexpensive - $99 per year, no other fees
> Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
> Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Wow.
This is the main problem for me.
So I make an app.
I don't want to charge RL money for it but a little in-game isk to keep me playing for 'free' would be nice.
and now I have to pay CCP $100 per year for the pleasure..
nice.
--------------------------------------
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:41:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jackie Fisher on 15/06/2011 18:41:56
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Wow, so someone could make hundreds or - who knows? - maybe even thousands of dollars of pocket money a year by running a banking website.
Although CCP are charging real life currency for a licence they are not permitting developers to charge real life currency for their applications.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:50:00 -
[15]
My take on this clustershag ?
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license.
Everything else, sure, why not.
But not those two.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Ibn Faldan
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:50:00 -
[16]
My feeling is everyone asking for some form of compensation in order to have access to their service should be required to pay the fee, ISK-based compensation, ad-supported and donation-based should not, so hopefully CCP will alter the terms to account for that.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:13:00 -
[17]
Chribba's feedback
ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
RAW23
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:16:00 -
[18]
What does this mean for auditing? The licensing charge is not only for applications but also for services. Or should 'services' be understood in a narrower, or more technical, sense?
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:19:00 -
[19]
Thank god EBANK is closing down, that crap heap would be required to pay $99 a year!..
--> Always finding a way to throw in EBANK <--
On a related topic BSA Exchange would also have to pay.
EVE Insurance will have to pay.
SexyWallet Would have to pay.
That Trade Finding web service will have to pay.
Ambo would have to pay for EMMA
The list goes on.
It's clear whoever proposed this in this form was taking direction from the legal nutters.. The whole thing has a real... "If you gain anywhere anyhow, you have to pay." fell do it. That is a Legal Department's fall back position on pretty much anything. Here is how stupid it is when it comes to virtual currency in an enclosed system.
I have a BLOG, which shows my EVE Thoughts and Observations. To the side it has API generated information about me. What my skills are, what I'm training, my wallet balance, my industrial jobs, where I currently am and in what ship. A real "voyeuristic" style Blog with nothing held back.
At the bottom of the page, I have..
--> If you like my stories feel free to donate...
That line, means.. I have to pay $99 to CCP.
THAT is why nutjob legal asshats should stay clear when writing policies like this.
Amarr for Life |
Tirestun
Intaki Armaments
Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:20:00 -
[20]
"Services" Needs to be clarified. What constitutes a Service?
Things like selling ad space in player made publications, especially those that don't even touch the API, for ISK, shouldn't require a 99 dollar a year license.
Originally by: Abrazzar
Are we down yet?
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:21:00 -
[21]
So CCP has just turned it self into a global in-game government by charging a flat tax on externalized innovation. Government regulation and taxation is bad for innovation. Guess they like money more than they like player's contributing to Eve, making it a better place and increasing Eve's market share.
Such contradictions seem to be beyond CCP's grasp of understanding.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:31:00 -
[22]
More rage of mine.
Since I never have anything to hide I posted my RL account with HOW HOLY MUCH I am making with my filthy vahrokh.com website!
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:31:00 -
[23]
Amazing. Truly, utterly stupefying. Seriously.
Whoever it is that's advising CCP on where the line is between real world currency and virtual currency deserves to be shot. Everything CCP has done up to this point with PLEX, MTs, etc. has been with one simple concept in mind: all payments of real world currency to CCP are in exchange for "entertainment services". This is the line that protects them from all sorts of legal trouble with governments all over the place. No one is paying cash for virtual goods, they're paying cash for play time. Buying GTCs is buying game time. This is why you have to buy a GTC and then convert it to PLEX and then convert that to ISK, rather than be able to directly pay cash for ISK. It obfuscates the situation enough that governments cannot accuse CCP of "monetizing" virtual assets, which is exactly what they're doing, and progressively doing more and more.
Now they're doing something very, very dangerous for them. By allowing 3rd parties to charge real world currency for ANYTHING related to actual data within Eve Online, they are effectively "monetizing" that data. Sure you can argue that the value is in the service the 3rd party is providing and not the data itself, but they'll actually have to make that argument over and over again to each tax authority that takes an interest in what they're doing.
That could potentially be a very expensive process.
Oh, not to mention the fact that they're effectively enabling a rather opaque fronting opportunity for RMTers. Come to my website, pay me $20 for access to my super-duper API front-end, and *wink wink nudge nudge* get a "gift" in-game. What's that CCP? You think I'm RMTing? Prove it. Oh, and if you revoke the license I paid you $99 for, I'll sue, regardless of what the EULA says.
EULAs are not legally binding agreements in the vast majority of jurisdictions anyway, particularly when money is changing hands for something other than a service, so will offer very thin protection against such lawsuits. I work professionally in the entertainment industry and discussions on the legality of this very issue come up regularly. The takeaway is always the same: Yes, we can legally do this. Do we really want to have to defend this position? No way.
This is NOT a wise move.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: CCP
òNon-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license
Wait... did they say free?
Yep!
Free - sounds good to me 
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
So CCP has just turned it self into a global in-game government by charging a flat tax on externalized innovation. Government regulation and taxation is bad for innovation. Guess they like money more than they like player's contributing to Eve, making it a better place and increasing Eve's market share.
Such contradictions seem to be beyond CCP's grasp of understanding.
Yes, however, we need some kind of way to charge money (if we want to) for services that use EVE IP (i.e. API data).
The current suggestion is flawed in that RL $ Donation and ISK payments shouldn't need a commericial license but we do need something to give developers more options on how to subsidize their costs...unless you're volunteering to foot my development bills.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:42:00 -
[26]
greedy douchebag bag is the term that springs to mind.
I dont use any services that require my API but this is dumb.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SencneS
--> If you like my stories feel free to donate...
That line, means.. I have to pay $99 to CCP.
You would not have to pay CCP anything. You are accepting donations for the maintenance of your website. Your blog qualifies as fanfic, which is considered an allowable derivative work of CCP's IP as long as you're not directly charging for access to it.
Worst case, if the lawyers are zealous enough, you'll get a cease and desist letter, which you can prompty ignore. CCP is not big enough to behave this way, but apparently somebody in their legal department thinks they are.
PS: Clearly someone hired to manage the CCP/Sony agreement has extra time on their hands, and is making suggestions on "shoring up" CCP's IP assets. Probably with thoughts of blockbuster movies and Walmart merchandising deals floating around in their head.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:51:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ghoest
greedy douchebag bag is the term that springs to mind.
I dont use any services that require my API but this is dumb.
I doubt greed is an issue since they will make a pittance selling licences. It looks more like a combination of laziness, in attempting to create a one size fits all policy, combined with stupidity, in not seeing the consequences of such a policy, plus a dose of arrogant contempt (see Hilmar's tweet about the playerbase 'whining' about this).
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Originally by: CCP
òNon-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license
Wait... did they say free?
Yep!
Free - sounds good to me
Nothing is free. You have to register with CCP and agree to their restrictions. This is a cost in terms of diminished opportunity to act.
Lawyers like this because it can potentially turn into a voluntary list of people to sue for breaking those restrictions. This is all about control of their IP, again because somebody has delusions that Eve is bigger than it is.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:57:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 15/06/2011 20:01:00
I and other EvE big time supporters of EvE third party software / websites will shut down our stuff as indicated here:
Originally by: woddel
Originally by: Joe SMASH
As a show of force that most 3rd party devs do NOT like this rule. I think we should figure out a day where all Eve Online 3rd party sites get taken offline. This will show the community what it will be like if CCP gets this in place. For those 24 hours, the Eve community (voted best in the MMO world!) goes quiet and CCP will (hopefully) begin to see their many mistakes with this new set of rules.
i'm in with www.eve-commander.com and agents.eve-commander.com...
--------------------------
I am in with the following:
Here is the list of open to everyone services that I will have to shutdown
EvE Emergency Trust PLEX Charity initiative when RL disasters happen (featured on Fanfest 2011 videos, donated > $4000 to Japanese)
Official EvE thread
Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Technical Analysis (finance)
Official EvE thread
Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Public Audits Archive (Market Discussion investments)
Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Public Investmens Records (Market Discussion investments)
Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Charting Service
Official EvE thread
Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site
NEISIN free app
Official EvE thread
Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Income Analyzer (trading / sales analysis graphs and statistics)
Hosted on
Vahrokh.com official sub-site
Edit:
And now you will understand why in game I said I was litigating HARD with CCP.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
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