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Terminal Insanity Minmatar Convex Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:37:00 - [31] Originally by: Patch Gatsby Here is the quote from the Dev Blog- òOpen-ended - You can charge subscription fees, receive donations, sell your app in an app-store and more òNon-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license That sure sounds like you can charge real money to me, and states very plainly that there is a free license option. You're assuming that they mean 'charge' for 'money'. They mean 'charge for isk'. READ THE DEVBLOG. Quote: Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services? No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:37:00 - [32] They sure are getting more greedy by the day.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:40:00 - [33] Edited by: Tippia on 15/06/2011 22:40:03 Originally by: Postumius Aculeo If they don't want to charge, they don't have to buy a license - so all those free apps can stay free if the developers choose. àbut if they don't want to charge and want to use, say, ads to offset the cost of hosting their software, they do have to buy a license. If you are really anal about it, corps are no longer allowed to have websites without paying a license ù they get taxes, after all, and this constitutes an ISK donation, for which a commercial license is needed. Quote: Can we actually try reading and making sure we understand before we start spewing venom Yes, you really should. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:41:00 - [34] Steam wouldnt charge a game site for simply making a forum with The Steam logo in the header. CCP plans to. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Bloodpetal Mimidae Risk Solutions	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:49:00 - [35] NOT to mention the slap in the face to "ISK based" services. Now, you can't run a website that offers ISK based services anymore, or you have to pay $100. GOODBYE PLAYER MADE CONTENT. So, now you get to pay for a subscription to EVE to only do 3 things. Mission Run, Mine, or PVP. There is no other content available to EVE anymore. There is ABSOLUTELY no comparison to Steam here. Let me list some of the community sites affected by this... http://www.eohpoker.com/ http://evemaps.dotlan.net/ http://www2.phaserinc.com/ http://noir.pinacoderm.com/phpBB3/ http://wiki.eve-id.net/Main_Page http://www.eve-bb.com/ http://www.evehq.net/ ____________________________________________________ Bastet :: Captain
Jim Luc Caldari Rule of Five Split Infinity.	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Jim Luc Up til now nobody could charge for their apps read the dev blog. You STILL CAN NOT CHARGE MONEY FOR YOUR SERVICES. It is STILL AGAINST THE EULA. The licencing only allows you to charge ISK for your service... and you have to pay 100 dollars to do that now. Before today, you were 100% allowed to. They decided to monetize the community's work... for themselves. I don't think you read my post. Up till now you COULD NOT charge for your app. People might've done it, but it was definitely against their EULA. Now, you can still have a free app, you just need to sign their free agreement which clearly lays out what is covered in the free agreement, and what is not. How hard is this to understand??? They always say Eve players are uber intelligent, but I'm starting to think otherwise here...
Bloodpetal Mimidae Risk Solutions	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:52:00 - [37] Edited by: Bloodpetal on 15/06/2011 22:56:09 Edited by: Bloodpetal on 15/06/2011 22:52:34 Originally by: Postumius Aculeo Wow...mass reading comprehension fail! If they don't want to charge, they don't have to buy a license - so all those free apps can stay free if the developers choose. You can't supply IN-GAME SERVICES for money, but accepting donations, service fees, in-game currency, or any other compensation for third-party software that doesn't violate EULA or ToS is OKAY if you buy a license. All of you who are inventing the "only charge ISK" need to read it again, slowly this time. Can we actually try reading and making sure we understand before we start spewing venom at CCP? They've just done something Blizzard hasn't, and offered to let players and software developers piggyback on their intellectual property, and you are flaming them for it! WRONG. You run a 3rd party website the sells IN-GAME SERVICES for ISK you will have to pay for a commercial license. Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. Let's read that again. Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. And the follow up. Quote: 2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more. That means ANY in-game SERVICE that has a WEBSITE will get charge $100 FOR TRADING IN ISK. ____________________________________________________ Bastet :: Captain
Postumius Aculeo	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:54:00 - [38] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 15/06/2011 22:40:03 Originally by: Postumius Aculeo If they don't want to charge, they don't have to buy a license - so all those free apps can stay free if the developers choose. àbut if they don't want to charge and want to use, say, ads to offset the cost of hosting their software, they do have to buy a license. Yes. And if the ads don't make enough to offset the cost of the license and development, charging another $5 per person fee will do the trick if they get more than 20 people per year to use their stuff. Originally by: Tippia If you are really anal about it, corps are no longer allowed to have websites without paying a license ù they get taxes, after all, and this constitutes an ISK donation, for which a commercial license is needed. Entirely too anal. I'm pretty sure the license covers 3RD PARTY development, NOT in-game mechanics. It's all right there, if you read carefully. Originally by: Tippia Quote: Can we actually try reading and making sure we understand before we start spewing venom Yes, you really should. I did. Seems a lot of others aren't.
Postumius Aculeo	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:56:00 - [39] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Patch Gatsby Here is the quote from the Dev Blog- òOpen-ended - You can charge subscription fees, receive donations, sell your app in an app-store and more òNon-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license That sure sounds like you can charge real money to me, and states very plainly that there is a free license option. You're assuming that they mean 'charge' for 'money'. They mean 'charge for isk'. READ THE DEVBLOG. Quote: Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services? No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services. Apparently you missed the part that says IN GAME SERVICES. I bolded it for you. My read is that such things as EveMon wouldn't be considered in-game services, and thus real money could be charged. I'd like to see CCP clarify this.
Bloodpetal Mimidae Risk Solutions	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:57:00 - [40] Originally by: Postumius Aculeo Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 15/06/2011 22:40:03 Quote: Can we actually try reading and making sure we understand before we start spewing venom Yes, you really should. I did. Seems a lot of others aren't. No, it seems you are not reading. Quote: 2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more. That means ANY in-game SERVICE that has a WEBSITE will get charge $100 FOR TRADING IN ISK. ____________________________________________________ Bastet :: Captain
Bloodpetal Mimidae Risk Solutions	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:01:00 - [41] Originally by: Jim Luc Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Jim Luc Up til now nobody could charge for their apps read the dev blog. You STILL CAN NOT CHARGE MONEY FOR YOUR SERVICES. It is STILL AGAINST THE EULA. The licencing only allows you to charge ISK for your service... and you have to pay 100 dollars to do that now. Before today, you were 100% allowed to. They decided to monetize the community's work... for themselves. I don't think you read my post. Up till now you COULD NOT charge for your app. People might've done it, but it was definitely against their EULA. Now, you can still have a free app, you just need to sign their free agreement which clearly lays out what is covered in the free agreement, and what is not. How hard is this to understand??? They always say Eve players are uber intelligent, but I'm starting to think otherwise here... Alright, the problem is simple. DONATION sites and AD-sponsored "FREE" software is NOT POSSIBLE. YOU MUST PAY. So there is no FREE ware anymore, there is "I pay for everything" software with no way to offset the hosting/development costs - even if you give it up for free. SO no, the developer is now forced to pay $100 to CCP, whether they took donations, or put up ads - OR to pay for hosting and bandwidth on their own WITHOUT ANY COMMUNITY SUPPORT. So CCP is cutting off developers from their communities. Period. End of story, that is the bottom line that is not written at the end of that blog. CCP CUTS OFF FREEWARE DEVS FROM COMMUNITY AT COST OF $100. ____________________________________________________ Bastet :: Captain
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:02:00 - [42] Originally by: Postumius Aculeo Yes. And if the ads don't make enough to offset the cost of the license and development, charging another $5 per person fee will do the trick if they get more than 20 people per year to use their stuff. àin other words, they can't actually develop for free any more. You can no longer "not want to charge" and your claim that "if they don't want to charge, they don't have to buy a license" becomes entirely contingent on things that are out of your control. Quote: Entirely too anal. I'm pretty sure the license covers 3RD PARTY development, NOT in-game mechanics. It's all right there, if you read carefully. No. ISK donations (an in-game mechanic) is already in there and requires a license. Quote: I did. Seems a lot of others aren't. You did it poorly then. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Jim Luc Caldari Rule of Five Split Infinity.	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:07:00 - [43] Originally by: Bloodpetal Edited by: Bloodpetal on 15/06/2011 22:57:20 Originally by: Postumius Aculeo Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 15/06/2011 22:40:03 Quote: Can we actually try reading and making sure we understand before we start spewing venom Yes, you really should. I did. Seems a lot of others aren't. No, it seems you are not reading. Quote: 2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more. That means ANY in-game SERVICE that has a WEBSITE will get charge $100 FOR TRADING IN ISK. In-game services that you charge ISK for I'm not sure is what they're talking about here, but rather apps or websites that like Eve-Central that require ISK or ask for ISK donations. I could be wrong however. Even so - I am not sure why this is such a big deal. So you charge ISK for something in-game, and they charge you $100 per year, how is this a big deal?? $100 doesn't even cover the cost of a nice dinner for two, and you want free advertising for something you can turn around and purchase PLEX and resell for $35 each? You can easily make up that $100 per year by selling 4 PLEX that you purchased with ISK earned from your services.
N'tek alar Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:11:00 - [44] For all those going ape-** about this, Read the dev blog closer. Quote:** Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license No, you don't have to pay unless you're charging for it or asking for donations.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:16:00 - [45] Originally by: N'tek alar For all those going ape-** about this, Read the dev blog closer. Quote: Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license No, you don't have to pay unless you're charging for it or asking for donations. Funnily enough, that's not the part people are "going ape-*" about. The problem is that that particular exception will almost never come into playà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki*
Postumius Aculeo	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:18:00 - [46] Edited by: Postumius Aculeo on 15/06/2011 23:18:16 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Postumius Aculeo Yes. And if the ads don't make enough to offset the cost of the license and development, charging another $5 per person fee will do the trick if they get more than 20 people per year to use their stuff. àin other words, they can't actually develop for free any more. You can no longer "not want to charge" and your claim that "if they don't want to charge, they don't have to buy a license" becomes entirely contingent on things that are out of your control. What is out of your control?? If you want to develop and host a 3rd party app and aren't worried about compensation, no $99 dollar license needed. If you want to get paid for your time, now you'll be able to charge formally and legally. In the former case, if some kind soul wants to contant you via email and set up a donation anyway, I'm pretty sure CCP won't know. Originally by: Tippia Quote: Entirely too anal. I'm pretty sure the license covers 3RD PARTY development, NOT in-game mechanics. It's all right there, if you read carefully. No. ISK donations (an in-game mechanic) is already in there and requires a license. What part of '3rd party development' are you missing? In what way is a corp/alliance accepting taxes '3rd party development'? You could check with CCP, but I'm pretty sure just talking about an in-game transaction on an out-of-game forum doesn't constitute '3rd party development'. Ask them to clarify. My guess is, that is why they are thinking of pulling isk-payment out of the $99 license, so there can be no mistake as to their intentions. Ask them, before you support another gloom-and-doom pronouncement. Originally by: Tippia Quote: I did. Seems a lot of others aren't. You did it poorly then. I think not.
Mocam	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:20:00 - [47] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Patch Gatsby Here is the quote from the Dev Blog- òOpen-ended - You can charge subscription fees, receive donations, sell your app in an app-store and more òNon-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license That sure sounds like you can charge real money to me, and states very plainly that there is a free license option. You're assuming that they mean 'charge' for 'money'. They mean 'charge for isk'. READ THE DEVBLOG. Quote: Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services? No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services. I read the blog and it draws frowns. EVEMon and EveHQ are hosted on battleclinic. Both are "free" yet both are hosted on a site that has advertising. As such, the developers may be held to pay $99 a year each to offer those applications - DUE to the hosting of advertising on the battleclinic site. If a developer offers his application with a note there saying "donations welcome, please feel free to send isk to <insert char name>" - that requires a $99 fee due to their allowing players to donate to them. No "fee" charged. - I have no problems with them charging KB operators and the like for charging isk for their services. - I DO have a problem with any site that has adverts to pay for the board hosting, which implement the API, being considered as "commercial" as well as the "donations" portion being included the way it is. Hell, about ANY site that offers "free downloads" has advertising on it in one way or another and this will make all but the "I own my own server" types qualify as commercial. That's ****-poor form on CCP's part and they should address/reword it.
N'tek alar Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:22:00 - [48] Edited by: N''tek alar on 15/06/2011 23:24:02 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: N'tek alar For all those going ape-** about this, Read the dev blog closer. Quote: Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license No, you don't have to pay unless you're charging for it or asking for donations. Funnily enough, that's not the part people are "going ape-**" about. The problem is that that particular exception will almost never come into playà How so? If you don't use ads, don't ask for donations, Don't charge for the service/app/site and don't try to gain any iskies/cash from it you don't have to pay according to what the dev blog says, So how is it that you can say that that exception will almost never come into play? I do think that people using ads and donations to support keeping their site up/pay for bandwidth etc probably should be exempt as well as a lot of them are doing a lot of good for CCP and the EVE community as a whole, But it sounds to me like you're exaggerating a bit here, Or at least making an assumption that so far doesn't have anything to base it on.
cyclobs Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:23:00 - [49] wait wait wait wait... does this mean mercs (like PL) will now have to PAY CCP $100 to offer their services in game?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:27:00 - [50] Originally by: N'tek alar How so? If you don't use ads, don't ask for donations, Don't charge for the service/app/site and don't try to gain any iskies/cash from it you don't have to pay according to what the dev blog says, So how is it that you can say that that exception will almost never come into play? Because most people put ads on their sites to pay for the hosting. And note the obscenity that his has nothing to do with the software: if the site has ads to support the site, then the software needs to be licensed as it is currently written. Quote: I do think that asking people using ads and donations to support keeping their site up/pay for bandwidth etc probably should be exempt as well as a lot of them are doing a lot of good for CCP and the EVE community as a whole, But it sounds to me like you're exaggerating a bit here, Or at least making an assumption that so far doesn't have anything to base it on. And that is the problem: they are not exempt. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
N'tek alar Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:31:00 - [51] Edited by: N''tek alar on 15/06/2011 23:32:40 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: N'tek alar How so? If you don't use ads, don't ask for donations, Don't charge for the service/app/site and don't try to gain any iskies/cash from it you don't have to pay according to what the dev blog says, So how is it that you can say that that exception will almost never come into play? Because most people put ads on their sites to pay for the hosting. And note the obscenity that his has nothing to do with the software: if the site has ads to support the site, then the software needs to be licensed as it is currently written. Quote: I do think that asking people using ads and donations to support keeping their site up/pay for bandwidth etc probably should be exempt as well as a lot of them are doing a lot of good for CCP and the EVE community as a whole, But it sounds to me like you're exaggerating a bit here, Or at least making an assumption that so far doesn't have anything to base it on. And that is the problem: they are not exempt. I know they aren't according to the dev blog, I agree they should be, I do NOT agree that that there's a need to go nuts about it until we know the exact terms for getting a non-commercial license. If they go on to finalize it with these demands in place, With no other exceptions than the ones mentioned in the dev blog, Then yes, Bad move, But until then i see no reason to panic.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:37:00 - [52] Originally by: N'tek alar I know they aren't according to the dev blog, I agree they should be, I do NOT agree that that there's a need to go nuts about it until we know the exact terms for getting a non-commercial license. If they go on to finalize it with these demands in place, With no other exceptions than the ones mentioned in the dev blog, Then yes, Bad move, But until then i see no reason to panic. Fair enough. It's just that over the years, "going nuts" has repeatedly proven to be the one way to get the point acrossà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Atticus Fynch Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:40:00 - [53] I dont recall praising steam over anything so WTF are you talking about? You are comparing apples and oranges.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.16 00:09:00 - [54] Quote: No, you don't have to pay unless you're charging for it or asking for donations Holy Einstein, imagine you just finished your free and open source app. You just want to make it available and get your oh-so-free license right? Too bad, 99.9% of the free hosts HAVE ads and you can't do anything. Even Google, Sourceforge, everywhere there's ads. So you WILL have to pay $99. Of you can pay: - domain name - 1 year of virtual hosting - 1 certificate in case your work requires some security for the users. - Someone to install all the weblog or whatever you use. Or spend days doing it yourself (which have a value). This easily make for a good penny. So I can pay 100-200 euros in my new zero ads server OR pay $99 to CCP to put all on a free-yet-ads-ridden website. NO WAY TO ESCAPE. THE 3rd freeware developer is FU*ED. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
nahtoh Caldari Brotherhood of The Saltire	Posted - 2011.06.16 01:40:00 - [55] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 15/06/2011 22:05:05 Originally by: Patch Gatsby CCP owns the Eve IP. It's how they make money. Other companies would just unleash the lawyers on all the 3rd party stuff. All those people would get cease and desist letters and some would probably get sued. Then CCP would offer their own sites at extra cost. Instead CCP has basically offered to let these 3rd parties go into business with them. It doesn't mean that you will have to pay for the stuff. Some will be free and supported by ad revenue just like other free web stuff. Some will ask you to pay, but you only have to if it is worth it. Wouldn't it be nice if any of the agent sites were up to date for the new rules. Well if someone was making a little $$$ off the site they would probably have the motivation to get it up to date. CCP has created a business opportunity for everyone in the Eve community. Anytime there is even the hint that we might, MIGHT, have to pay a little more everyone freaks. I for one can think of very few entertainment options which give me the hours of fun I have with Eve for $14.99 a month. If I spent those hours in the bar, that would break me! Wrong. Other developers allow their players to make 3rd party apps freely. Look at Tribes and Tirbes2, allowed nearly full client-side scripting. World of Warcraft, allows third party plugins that also directly modify and add to the game's UI Every game developer in the planet has always allowed players to create their own websites and ****. As far back as Duke Nukem's custom skins, and Quake's custom models. There has never been a game developer that i know of yet who's charged their customers for the customer's work that benifits the whole game community... untill CCP anyway. And where is this 'business oppertunity' exactly? They said that you STIL CANT MAKE REAL MONEY from your 3rd party stuff.... You just have to pay 100 bucks a year in order to accept ISK in exchange for your services (such as killboards). In effect, you are paying CCP in order to improve their community. If anyone is getting paid, it should be the person developing the 3rd party program... not CCP. sodding forum times outs... Your seem to be misunderstanding teh dev blog, evemon, EFT while API driven external software is nopt a ingame service. So by my reading of it yes you can charge real money for it. You can't however charge money for for instance for a hauling run (a actual in game action). The only thing that is a bit of a dissconect is if a mec corp has a private webpage with their prices for serices on it. As for download sites some clrification on if its for instnce just a dowload link on some like sourceforge or a actual fully eve based website. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
da go	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:10:00 - [56] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Jim Luc Up til now nobody could charge for their apps read the dev blog. You STILL CAN NOT CHARGE MONEY FOR YOUR SERVICES. It is STILL AGAINST THE EULA. You should read it. They are doing this EXACTLY for that reason: allow developers to charge real money. --- I don't know! I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it, and I don't know why I'll do it again! Bart Simpson.
Antihrist Pripravnik Scorpion Road Industry	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:31:00 - [57] Originally by: Ayieka Steam makes it possible for smalltime developers to make actal money, and we praised them for it. Ccp does pretty much the same thing for 3rd party programmers for eve and we just poop all over it. Explain your work. It's not about developers that charge for their apps - it's about "Like this app/service? Then donate some ISK" crowd. You know... like Dotlan.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:39:00 - [58] Originally by: Ayieka People also need to remember that ccp isn't forcing these developers to make people pay for their apps and such. Are you braindead or just plain stupid? Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Syphon Lodian Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:40:00 - [59] Steam is a platform that sells games. That's it. You don't pay a monthly fee to operate Steam. EVE is a game you pay to play, it isn't a platform to sell other things. Wtf am I reading. -------------------------------------------------
Atticus Fynch Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:49:00 - [60] Originally by: Ayieka People also need to remember that ccp isn't forcing these developers to make people pay for their apps and such. Seriously now. You are a regular EVEMon user, and suddenly EVEMon wants to charge you for using their app. Would you pay? **** NO!!! Why should I pay for something I used to get for free. I'll write my own goddamn personal app. Another example: An agent finder site. I'm supposed to pay to access it? Why? CCP recently implemented Agent-finder in Incarna and it functions just like the site. So why pay for what should be in-game anyway? Bottom line: NO one is going to pay for any extra accessory outside of EVE itself.

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