Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Gunnyt31
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:35:00 -
[1]
so with all the mission alts in fw why not make the fw mechanics more rewarding? like say the plexing victory points you get make them be tranferable to loyaltly points or something. more loyaltly point for getting final blows. something that would encourage people to do stuff besides putting mission alts into fw.
|
Mara Abraham
Minmatar T.R.I.A.D
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:59:00 -
[2]
Good day:
See the bottom of http://www.factionalwarfare.info/812/minmatar-faction-warfare-getting-to-know-player-run-corporations/ where I got feedback from a number of Minmatar FW CEO's (or authorized parties) on the subject matter.
Specifically:
One of the survey questions involved the perceived and real problems that exist in Minmatar faction warfare, and ways those problems might be solved. What follows are some highlights of what should be looked at by CCP:
More loyalty points should be given for PVP. Right now one PVP kill might yield as much as 20 LP where as doing just one level 4 mission gives an average of 16,000 LP. Militia members should get proper LP pay for their time and effort.
Capturing and defending plexes should count for more than standing increases. Right now, outside of role playing, plexing has no real rewards. Especially when the sovereignty of the system captured never changes even if the system is captured for months on end. Any plex revamp should also take into account changes like the faction hulls buff. Capturing or loosing systems has very little impact on life in FW and it does not encourage more PVP. Capturing complexes is excruciatingly boring. Part of the plex change should include LP for capturing or defending a plex.
There should be harsher consequences to those that shoot friendly militia; the current system allows individuals and corporations to set up an environment where by they can regularly shoot friendly militia members for extended periods of time without being booted out of the militia. If neutrals shoot militia members, they should take a faction hit as if they were shooting faction NPC ships.
Reduce station camping by not allowing the enemy faction to dock up up or by dramatically extending the time it takes for them to switch in and out of switches.
Too many individuals join Minmatar militia only to mission for ISK without participating in PVP or capturing and defending systems. Joining faction warfare should mean something beyond a means to generate ISK.
Keep the storyline going û we need news PLUS it would be great to see the faction NPCÆs getting involved as a follow on plot from the book, maybe play things out like the Incursion LIVE EVENTS.
CCP should provide more publicity to the faction warfare.
Thank you.
--- Mara Abraham
* http://www.factionalwarfare.info
|
Manda Rin
Minmatar Sexy Thoughts
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 21:12:00 -
[3]
If they gave decent payouts for killing enemy ships I would not be alone in joining FW with two alts and farming away getting endless killmails. This would also ridicule the FW statistics.
|
Cosmic Raider
Capitalist Pig Running Dogs
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 23:32:00 -
[4]
I agree with Gunny. IMO, making plexing more rewarding will encourage widespread small gang pvp across the entirety of the available FW space. The plexing contest between factions is akin to a strategic chess match between warring factions. Well, OK, a chess match where people kill each other and hurl vile insults in local. However, there is little inducement for players to do so (other than new players trying to build standings in order to access FW agents and a small number of other certain lunatics for whom seizing occupancy is its own reward). This is because Victory Points (VP) accrued from plexing are the only non-tradable points. Loyalty points can be cashed in for stuff. Research points can be cashed in for data cores. VP should be tradable in FW stores the same as LP. Moreover, VP rewards per plex should be scaled to FW mission rewards accoring to relative difficulty. - Currently, taking a bunker results in no personal reward at all despite the fact it is the most difficult single thing to do in FW, requiring extensive work just to get to that point and is the equivalent of taking down a small POS. This is silly. Granted, there are real team rewards for taking a system (defensive plexes in system, chest-beating rights in forums). Personal rewards could be divided based on damage done to the bunker and be a killmail just as taking down a small pos. Additionally, a seized system could also result in the installment of friendly FW agents in a local station. - A tradable victory point system should be put in place that values offensive over defensive and could work akin to points one derives from a kill on battleclinic, e.g., more points for solo, more points for large vice small plex.
|
Super Chair
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 00:39:00 -
[5]
I feel that victory points should have their own exclusive rewards in addition to access to the LP Store items. People will just farm LP just as they always have because its easier than getting LP by PvP combat. Why risk your ship in combat if you can get the same reward from shooting NPCs?
Some rewards I feel could be introduced:
Faction Battlecruisers (Currently there are none in the game)
Faction Destroyers (Same reason as above)
Faction EWAR Cruisers (performance similar to that of a recon with the same role, minus bonuses, ressits, and other bonuses of flying a T2 over a T1 Ship).
Increased LP for kills, or change LP reward for a kill to rewarding VP instead.
Also I feel that the plexing system should be tweaked to periodically spawn plexes in every system over the course of a day so all timezones can see action throughout the day.
|
Andre Vauban
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 01:26:00 -
[6]
Just delete missions all together, then change VP to LP and maybe adjust LP awards based on plex size. Problem solved. Of course you have to fix the plex spawning issues first.
|
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 03:40:00 -
[7]
If it was a perfect world, and CCP hasn't completely ignored it.
* Remove all the missions
* Put a good reward system into the FW control/sov mechanics.
Until then? Grind away like a madmen, and then fly T1 BCs. Whine nonstop if somebody threatens your missions, because you need phat ISK to replace all the :DRAEK: you fly. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 06:31:00 -
[8]
- Remove missions. Only way to get LP is to plex, something that the other side can take away from you, unlike a mission where you can just go away and come back later. It will force mission bears to pvp assuming that enough people care about plexes (which they should if it's the only way to make fw LP).
And to make the above work
- Fix plex spawning - Balance the rats
And FW could be a pvp nirvana.
|
Target Painter
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 06:49:00 -
[9]
Originally by: chatgris - Remove missions. Only way to get LP is to plex, something that the other side can take away from you, unlike a mission where you can just go away and come back later. It will force mission bears to pvp assuming that enough people care about plexes (which they should if it's the only way to make fw LP).
Now I've never been in FW, but previously I've heard from quite a few people actually in the various militias that part of the appeal was that losing held no consequence, so you didn't have much the realpolitiking, metagaming, etc. that characterized sov nullsec (which has real consequences for defeat). Would you really be comfortable with an FW where one side called in 90 extra guys, but you were still compelled to fight at a horrible disadvantage to defend your primary source of income?
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 07:41:00 -
[10]
Edited by: chatgris on 17/06/2011 07:43:31
Originally by: Target Painter Would you really be comfortable with an FW where one side called in 90 extra guys, but you were still compelled to fight at a horrible disadvantage to defend your primary source of income?
Absolutely. They still aren't denying me space, and if I can't make fw income, there's always high sec missions, anoms, ratting etc. It just gives people a reason to fight.
There's still no real consequence for defeat, so there's no kicking out the enemy militia from where they live etc. You just continually fight over point objectives (the plexes) for a carrot, not a stick.
|
|
Cosmic Raider
Capitalist Pig Running Dogs
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: chatgris - Remove missions. Only way to get LP is to plex, something that the other side can take away from you, unlike a mission where you can just go away and come back later. It will force mission bears to pvp assuming that enough people care about plexes (which they should if it's the only way to make fw LP).
I don't know what I'm talking about
Fixed.
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:25:00 -
[12]
My old vision (yeah I pimp it a lot, haven't seen any better suggestion since so 'meh' )
Has missions play a part in system occupancy in a meaningful way, but their main purpose stays as a source of income.
PS: Rewards for capturing systems are pointless to debate as long as the underlying system is as broken as it is, can be slapped on at any time either way
|
Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:00:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 17/06/2011 10:00:32
Originally by: Andre Vauban Just delete missions all together, then change VP to LP and maybe adjust LP awards based on plex size. Problem solved. Of course you have to fix the plex spawning issues first.
I'd support this change. Perhaps the agents could actually contribute to the spawn of the plexes, as I mentioned here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1520969&page=1#3
Quote: Kinda'Shujaa - the Ushra'Khan Faction Warfare Detachment
|
Ein Phantom
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 11:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gunnyt31 trolling is expecting
OH MY GOD IS IT A BOY
|
Karl Planck
Inglorious-Basterds
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 11:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Andre Vauban Just delete missions all together, then change VP to LP and maybe adjust LP awards based on plex size. Problem solved. Of course you have to fix the plex spawning issues first.
again a bump for this idea. I really can't see anything wrong with it. As long as they fix the spawning to make them act like normal anoms this would take fw from being casual and fun to completely epic. Easy to implement, GET ON IT CCP -------------------------------------------------
Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 14:14:00 -
[16]
+1 for defensive plexing alts! Can't wait to get my Caldari alt up and running. Go to Sarenemi, cap an offensive plex and get some FW LP. Open next plex and have my minimum skill Caldari alt and get some FW LP. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Once my alt gets some skills up I'll buy it a dramiel and we can do this in Vifr and Athounon where there is no WT opposition.
pvp nirvana!
Why would anybody want to tie anything into the plexing mechanic that is mind numbingly boring 80% of the time?
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 14:21:00 -
[17]
Edited by: chatgris on 17/06/2011 14:21:59
Originally by: X Gallentius +1 for defensive plexing alts! Can't wait to get my Caldari alt up and running. Go to Sarenemi, cap an offensive plex and get some FW LP. Open next plex and have my minimum skill Caldari alt and get some FW LP. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Once my alt gets some skills up I'll buy it a dramiel and we can do this in Vifr and Athounon where there is no WT opposition.
pvp nirvana!
The hope is that by attaching some kind of reward, plexes won't be the wasteland they are now, and enemies will come to chase your alt out of the plex. Some kind of plex under attack notification system could help facilitate pvp.
Originally by: X Gallentius
Why would anybody want to tie anything into the plexing mechanic that is mind numbingly boring 80% of the time?
Because ship restricted fights can be a lot of fun. Problem is now, if you "win" and the enemy leaves the plex, you are simultaneously losing as you have to sit there and wait for the timer to count down while listening to people on vent who ignore plexes find pvp.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 14:53:00 -
[18]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 17/06/2011 14:53:44
Originally by: chatgris The hope is that by attaching some kind of reward, plexes won't be the wasteland they are now, and enemies will come to chase your alt out of the plex. Some kind of plex under attack notification system could help facilitate pvp.
"There's always hope." After you and your buds burn around for 10 jumps chasing an alt in a Condor you'll think otherwise. It's more isk efficient for you and your buds to let that alt contest alot of systems so that you can then cap other plexes in the same systems and at least make some isk!
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: X Gallentius
Why would anybody want to tie anything into the plexing mechanic that is mind numbingly boring 80% of the time?
Because ship restricted fights can be a lot of fun. Problem is now, if you "win" and the enemy leaves the plex, you are simultaneously losing as you have to sit there and wait for the timer to count down while listening to people on vent who ignore plexes find pvp.
If ship restricted fights are fun, why aren't more people doing them? When was the last time somebody needed an isk reward to pvp?
Nobody will stay and fight if they think they will lose. They will leave system and go run another plex. Same as now. Your reward is to sit on a button for 20 to 40 minutes. I'm glad you're now going to get paid for it, but it's still boring as hell.
|
Karl Planck
Inglorious-Basterds
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 15:30:00 -
[19]
@Gallentius
Your viewpoint is strictly from the cal/gal side of the gate. People use PLEX's to pvp all the time on the other side of the fence. The problem is YOU GUYS don't want to use them for some bittervet reason. A little while ago I ran 3 plexes (in Heyd of all places!) in a daredevil unopposed.
And yes, these could get farmed. But at least you could stop ppl from farming them like they farm missions now where we have leagues of mission alts just annoying us. -------------------------------------------------
Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 15:59:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Karl Planck "I sat in a minor in an OP Daredevil and didn't get a fight".
How will eliminating FW missions and adding more LP rewards for capturing plexes change that? Players will let you capture the first plex if the system is not contested (no fight), then they will overwhelm you with 4 daredevils to make sure they can get the LP reward(you will bail even if you are interested in the isk, no fight). If they can't muster the forces, they will let you capture the plex (no fight). Anybody actually interested in a fair fight (and not isk) will come in and fight you.
Same as always.
The difference? Some carebear somewhere near Nikkishima far away from the main fighting areas will be farming FW plexes 23/7 instead of making several jumps though low sec to get a fight. Have fun making 14+ jumps to grief somebody that won't engage.
|
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 16:36:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 17/06/2011 16:39:21
Originally by: X Gallentius ...A better suggestion would be to propose a way to grief mission runners if they bail from their mission.
Yeah, they should have a way for defenders to forcibly close the mission, currently only one that allows that "Wolf run .." or something, run 3 gates and grab a charter type of thing.
That's the reason why I don't bother chasing the stupid bombers any more, they just go next door to run another mission or AFK waiting for me to leave. Were I able to negatively influence their whoring ways by closing missions, thus giving them a standings hit, they would be forced to fight for the right to *****.
Perhaps a 60s timer button near the target spawn for a defender to orbit and essentially abandoning the mission on the *****s behalf.
|
Target Painter
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 16:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Cosmic Raider Fixed.
I don't know which part you are talking about, but like I said, I'm not in FW, never been in FW, only have second-hand info to go by.
|
Unfamed II
Caldari NPC Corporation Paisti Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 17:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 17/06/2011 16:39:21 Perhaps a 60s timer button near the target spawn for a defender to orbit and essentially abandoning the mission on the *****s behalf.
Oh yeah! That would be super awesome! -b |
Karl Planck
Inglorious-Basterds
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 19:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: X Gallentius A better suggestion would be to propose a way to grief mission runners if they bail from their mission.
1. they weren't minor plexes xD 2. you do have a good idea there, no doubt. All I want is someway to prevent the riskless nearly unstoppable farming in my backyard -------------------------------------------------
Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:29:00 -
[25]
Such a shift to plexes would need to be complimented by nerfing the faction frigs, or making minor plexes not accept faction frigs. Currently, a new player couldn't hope to compete.
In general, I would like to see plexing matter. But I also don't want the FW situation to get even more new player unfriendly.
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 17/06/2011 16:39:21
Originally by: X Gallentius ...A better suggestion would be to propose a way to grief mission runners if they bail from their mission.
Yeah, they should have a way for defenders to forcibly close the mission, currently only one that allows that "Wolf run .." or something, run 3 gates and grab a charter type of thing.
And this is why I suggest removing fw missions. Then plexes are like missions with a built in mechanism for the other side able to fail your mission.
|
Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy The Phoenix. Consortium
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:45:00 -
[27]
Remove plexes and missions in their entirety. Make occupancy based on kills!
|
Sugar Lee Willis
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:49:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Bluejacket CT Remove plexes and missions in their entirety. Make occupancy based on kills!
What he said.
|
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:55:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sugar Lee Willis
Originally by: Bluejacket CT Remove plexes and missions in their entirety. Make occupancy based on kills!
What he said.
Extremely exploitable. Occupancy would be effectively determined by who has more spare time and who is more willing to metagame. More than it already is, I mean.
|
Sugar Lee Willis
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Sugar Lee Willis
Originally by: Bluejacket CT Remove plexes and missions in their entirety. Make occupancy based on kills!
What he said.
Extremely exploitable. Occupancy would be effectively determined by who has more spare time and who is more willing to metagame. More than it already is, I mean.
Glad you added that caveat.
|
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 08:54:00 -
[31]
Originally by: chatgris And this is why I suggest removing fw missions. Then plexes are like missions with a built in mechanism for the other side able to fail your mission.
With plexes and NPCs being as broken (Ex. AB frig can close any and all Gall/Amarr plexes) as they are it would never work, not to mention it forces combat pilots to spend hours clawing their eyes out to make ISK.
Originally by: Bluejacket CT Remove plexes and missions in their entirety. Make occupancy based on kills!
Does the blobs need more encouragement? If occupancy is directly tied to ship destruction then you make having a superior fleet (ie. numbers) mandatory which leads to blue balls. Plus the fact that the only systems that would ever be in play are the ones in the pipes between militia HQ's as I don't see why people would travel X jumps in random direction and camp a system that is empty 22/7.
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 20:04:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: chatgris And this is why I suggest removing fw missions. Then plexes are like missions with a built in mechanism for the other side able to fail your mission.
With plexes and NPCs being as broken (Ex. AB frig can close any and all Gall/Amarr plexes) as they are it would never work, not to mention it forces combat pilots to spend hours clawing their eyes out to make ISK.
See my first post in this thread here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1529441&page=1#8 . I'm quite well aware of the npc imbalances etc, as listed at the link.
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 21:04:00 -
[33]
Originally by: chatgris See my first post in this thread here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1529441&page=1#8 . I'm quite well aware of the npc imbalances etc, as listed at the link.
Didn't see your edit. Question is if it is worth it making those changes and then not actually going all the way with a meaningful system as a whole.
It must be incredibly hard to remove eWar from rats since CCP hasn't done it yet despite most of FW asking for it since a few weeks into the wars .. If they were to make those changes then I'd rather they change the way plexes work (ie. sans timers) entirely, those bloody timers have been the cause of most of the game-breaking bugs in FW (cloaking capture, auto-running timer, frozen timers, backwards running timer etc.)
|
Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy The Phoenix. Consortium
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 01:28:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Bluejacket CT Remove plexes and missions in their entirety. Make occupancy based on kills!
Does the blobs need more encouragement? If occupancy is directly tied to ship destruction then you make having a superior fleet (ie. numbers) mandatory which leads to blue balls.
Blue balls = a lack of kills, which means that the fleet is too big to attract a decent fight. It's a problem that corrects itself.
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Extremely exploitable. Occupancy would be effectively determined by who has more spare time and who is more willing to metagame. More than it already is, I mean.
Dedication isn't an exploit, every competition in the game boils down to who is dedicated and skilled enough to get what they want.
|
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 01:33:00 -
[35]
I mean exploitable in the sense that I could just kill my alt a hundred times, and win the system.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 04:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: chatgris
And this is why I suggest removing fw missions. Then plexes are like missions with a built in mechanism for the other side able to fail your mission.
A very BORING mechanic for failing a very BORING mission.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 05:25:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Mutnin on 19/06/2011 05:34:02
For those that argue about getting rid of FW missions and instead giving rewards for plexing, what makes you think it would be any different with the farmers from how it is now?
We already see or have seen tons of noob alts farming plexes back in the day with barely any skills using recyclable noob alts. Meaning if it's rewarding people will figure out a way to farm them just as they do missions, WH's, high sec lvl 4's ect..ect..
Added to this how should the other 50% of FW members make their ISk once the after DT crew farms them out for the day? Are the guys that log in later in the day just **** out of luck because we know CCP will likely never fix the spawn mechanics.
Last of all what is real the problem with FW missions? I see people whine about them all the time and TBH I really don't see why. Yes there are farmers, just like anything else, so what's whats difference from any other way to ISK grind and why does it affect you so much? TBH I think the only problem is it's not "easy" to gank them and takes a bit of luck & skill added with patience, something that 90% of EVE player base does not have.
TBH, I only wish there was a way to do FW missions in a PVP ship. When I first started doing them way back on the Minmatar side, I used to use a BC and had a decent amount of fights in them. Now days it's just too hard to move a BC around in any efficient manor to make it reasonable so bomber is the best option.
|
Owena Owoked
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 07:15:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 19/06/2011 05:34:02
For those that argue about getting rid of FW missions and instead giving rewards for plexing, what makes you think it would be any different with the farmers from how it is now?
We already see or have seen tons of noob alts farming plexes back in the day with barely any skills using recyclable noob alts. Meaning if it's rewarding people will figure out a way to farm them just as they do missions, WH's, high sec lvl 4's ect..ect..
Added to this how should the other 50% of FW members make their ISk once the after DT crew farms them out for the day? Are the guys that log in later in the day just **** out of luck because we know CCP will likely never fix the spawn mechanics.
Last of all what is real the problem with FW missions? I see people whine about them all the time and TBH I really don't see why. Yes there are farmers, just like anything else, so what's whats difference from any other way to ISK grind and why does it affect you so much? TBH I think the only problem is it's not "easy" to gank them and takes a bit of luck & skill added with patience, something that 90% of EVE player base does not have.
TBH, I only wish there was a way to do FW missions in a PVP ship. When I first started doing them way back on the Minmatar side, I used to use a BC and had a decent amount of fights in them. Now days it's just too hard to move a BC around in any efficient manor to make it reasonable so bomber is the best option.
The problem with FW is purely mission farmers. If CCP would remove FW missions from the game or make them more like incursions on contested systems there would be more dependency on the militia as a whole and FW would be better. I used to think that I was a person that loved PVP and that is why I put my corp into FW, but after seeing the pointless banality of it all I was disenfranchised.
What is the point of fighting for something if that something holds zero influence over anything in the game. I mean sure I could go to frog highsec and kill their mission runners, but what out come does that have on the war? Answer, none. CCP gave us a great base, but left it at that. It is base content the draws people to FW and then eventually drives them away from it. In my case I quit the game again because with all the high hopes I had for EVE for a simple non-alliance way to get large scale PVP they left me hanging.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 09:30:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Mutnin on 19/06/2011 09:34:56
Originally by: Owena Owoked The problem with FW is purely mission farmers. If CCP would remove FW missions from the game or make them more like incursions on contested systems there would be more dependency on the militia as a whole and FW would be better. I used to think that I was a person that loved PVP and that is why I put my corp into FW, but after seeing the pointless banality of it all I was disenfranchised.
What is the point of fighting for something if that something holds zero influence over anything in the game. I mean sure I could go to frog highsec and kill their mission runners, but what out come does that have on the war? Answer, none. CCP gave us a great base, but left it at that. It is base content the draws people to FW and then eventually drives them away from it. In my case I quit the game again because with all the high hopes I had for EVE for a simple non-alliance way to get large scale PVP they left me hanging.
Ok so you are saying the problem with FW is purely FW missions yet you don't say why they are such a huge problem. I've been in FW pretty much since I started playing this game and long before FW missions were buffed. Somethings have changed and somethings have stayed the same.
One thing I can tell for 100% certainly is that other FW mission runners have zero effect on my PVP or game time other than I might catch a WT in a mission from time to time. Hence I can't understand why you think FW missions are somehow what is wrong with FW.
So what if some guy flys around in a cloaking bomber making ISK. Do all he cloaky haulers running around low sec also ruin it? What about all those guys in high sec grinding missions 23/7 do they also somehow affect your gaming experience?
It's simple ignore them, move on and find a target you can shoot at & have some fun. Who gives a crap what some guy in a cloaky bomber is doing as long as he's not shooting your ship.
As for meaningless PVP, well that's the entire point of FW for a large number of us. I understand that this might be hard to get, but there is a large number of us that just like to blow ships up for no reason other than the guy is a WT.
Not that I have anything against having PVP "mean something" but if that's all you are after, then go join some null sec alliance and go shoot POS's, SOV structures and wake up for CTA's at 4 am, because the PVP means you lose your station rights.
Meanwhile I'll continue to have mindless PVP in FW, because the above sounds not so fun to me.
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 09:34:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Owena Owoked The problem with FW is purely mission farmers....
Huh!?!
The problems are: - A convoluted, buggy and unbalanced plexing system. - Too easy and lucrative missions. - Inconsistent GM rulings (neuts are fine as tanks in missions but not plexes even if reasoning is same, WTF!). - Keeping alliances out even when most RP in eve is alliance based (Veto, U'K, CVA, EM, SF etc.).
Personally like the fact that I can take a day off and make ISK to last me a month or more. It is just so easy that farmers have overrun the damn place.
Assign a LP value to ship kills and plexes. Put that LP in escrow to be redeemed upon mission completion. - Forces farmers out while leaving missions as income source for active militia members.
|
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 11:54:00 -
[41]
Edited by: chatgris on 19/06/2011 11:56:31
Originally by: Mutnin
For those that argue about getting rid of FW missions and instead giving rewards for plexing, what makes you think it would be any different with the farmers from how it is now?
Because farmers would need to compete with pvpers, and more importantly, other farmers for their rewards. Someone who came in a pvp ship could seize the plex the farmer was working on.
Originally by: Mutnin
We already see or have seen tons of noob alts farming plexes back in the day with barely any skills using recyclable noob alts. Meaning if it's rewarding people will figure out a way to farm them just as they do missions, WH's, high sec lvl 4's ect..ect..
Yes, but it will be more competitive. You can't do another person's mission. You can take, and complete for reward, another person's plex. Consider the current situation:
You find someone's mission. You chase them out. They go somewhere else until you get bored and finish the mission later.
Consider the improved situation:
You find someone in a plex. You chase them out. If they come back, you get pvp. If they go somewhere else, you wait and complete the plex making LP/ISK.
Originally by: Mutnin
Added to this how should the other 50% of FW members make their ISk once the after DT crew farms them out for the day? Are the guys that log in later in the day just **** out of luck because we know CCP will likely never fix the spawn mechanics.
Fixing spawn mechanics, NPC balance are crucial for the plex replacing missions to succeed. If CCP won't fix these issues, they should not replace missions with plexes.
Originally by: Mutnin
Last of all what is real the problem with FW missions? I see people whine about them all the time and TBH I really don't see why. Yes there are farmers, just like anything else, so what's whats difference from any other way to ISK grind and why does it affect you so much? TBH I think the only problem is it's not "easy" to gank them and takes a bit of luck & skill added with patience, something that 90% of EVE player base does not have.
It's a pure pve activity in what is supposed to be a pvp portion of the game. It's my belief that the mechanics of fw should be pvp centric.
The mission runner has to severely screw up to be caught. I've made about 80B ISK running fw missions through all hours of the day, and have never lost a ship to players. I didn't run a stealth bomber, I flew a dominix (pre location nerf) or a gila usually solo (because it's more profitable that way, no alts along for the ride), sometimes for 36 hours straight on a weekend.
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, I only wish there was a way to do FW missions in a PVP ship. When I first started doing them way back on the Minmatar side, I used to use a BC and had a decent amount of fights in them. Now days it's just too hard to move a BC around in any efficient manor to make it reasonable so bomber is the best option.
Moving a BC around is hard? I roam alone or with 2-3 people in a drake pretty much anytime I am playing. I used to rat in syndicate for hours in a drake as well. Moving a BC in lowsec is easy.
I do agree on the missions should be doable in a PVP ship. I joined the TLF to experiment, and I could do those missions in a pvp ship, was great fun. However, the issue still stays that someone who is just there to farm, you can't mess with them at all. It'd be great if there was a way to fail their mission, say a timer or something. But then, it's just a plex and hence my suggestion to remove missions and give rewards for plexes (along with fixing the damn plexing mechanics).
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 12:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: chatgris Consider the improved situation:
You find someone in a plex. You chase them out. If they come back, you get pvp. If they go somewhere else, you wait and complete the plex making LP/ISK.
I think this is why people don't like the idea, it is a colossal waste of time.
I find someone in a major plex with five minutes remaining, he runs: I can now find some other shadow to chase or sit on my ass for 35 minutes to get some LP.
You'd need to make the LP/minute insanely high to make it worthwhile, but do that and you get even more alts swarming the FW zones.
It simply won't work.
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 12:31:00 -
[43]
Edited by: chatgris on 19/06/2011 12:31:13
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: chatgris Consider the improved situation:
You find someone in a plex. You chase them out. If they come back, you get pvp. If they go somewhere else, you wait and complete the plex making LP/ISK.
I think this is why people don't like the idea, it is a colossal waste of time.
I find someone in a major plex with five minutes remaining, he runs: I can now find some other shadow to chase or sit on my ass for 35 minutes to get some LP.
This is exactly why I think it will work to improve FW. Right now, you chase someone out of the plex - it's a colossal waste of time to close the plex. If plexes are the only way to get LP, then you have actually achieved a victory by closing the plex, instead of wasting 35 minutes of your life. It might even make people fight for plexes.
It's my general view that plexes give a refreshing take on pvp over the gate/station humping (with appropriate fixes to plexes), and incentives to allow them to promote pvp would be good. Plexes also force people to move out of their comfort zone in the pipes. The entire point of giving the plexes a reward is so that if you chase someone out of a plex and spend the 35 minutes closing it - You win, not lose.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 14:06:00 -
[44]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 19/06/2011 14:07:05 Actually I agree with chatgris. We can have somebody run a plex down to 1 minute and then wait for all of our friends to pile in for the VP/LP rewards and we can all make a ton of isk for very little overall effort.
What?! You want LP rewards for a plex FIXED? To what level? 60k lp for a L4? That's fine with me too. I don't mind solo'ing a defensive L4 in a far away system once a day. Not a problem at all!
This will also be good for cross-militia team building. I can help the Caldari militia farm missions in Enaluri. I cap a major to contest, then they pile in for easy lp on the next one - might as well make some easy LP spinning in a plex rather than the station. They can do the same for us in Heyd.
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 17:14:00 -
[45]
Originally by: X Gallentius Edited by: X Gallentius on 19/06/2011 14:07:05 Actually I agree with chatgris. We can have somebody run a plex down to 1 minute and then wait for all of our friends to pile in for the VP/LP rewards and we can all make a ton of isk for very little overall effort.
This here is the really hard question I don't have an answer to yet, and I assume it's why CCP didn't implement LP for plex capture when they said they would.
Do you
a) Give all LP to everyone on grid? (very exploitable) b) Split LP among everyone on grid? (imagine the anger as some militia guys warp in at the last minute to steal half the LP for the plex you spun down) c) Split LP based on the proportional time spent inside the plex (best solution, but can CCP code something that like? Requires tracking people and time spent instead of the current plex finish count people on grid and award).
On the flip side - completely removing plexes and using missions would be great. They are spawned, LP splitting is based on a fleet basis. You just need to add something to the mission that allows the plex to be failed by the other side.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 21:34:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Mutnin on 19/06/2011 21:39:16
Originally by: chatgris stuff
Sry can't quote it all and reply due to form limits..
First off you are dreaming.. Yes it would be nice to fight over ability to make isk but we all know how that will work out. They will just go do the next mission and who gives a rat ass if you chase them out with a pimped Dram or Cyn. It will be no different as it is now with mission runners getting chased out of their missions and so on.
First off, PVE & PVP don't mix in a efficient manor, so when you chase the mission runner out of his mission in your pimped Dram or Cynabal you aren't gonna be able to complete his mission any way.
Next as I mentioned in my other post and now this post the keywords "efficient manor". Not many PVPers want to grind ISK. Hence the reason the current FW missions are great. I never said it was impossible to fly a BC in low sec I said it was not "efficient" to do so while doing FW missions.
I don't want to waste my time grinding ISK, so when I do so, I want to get it done quickly. This means I'm gonna do it in the most efficient manor possible just like any good farmer would. If I'm obviously not in a PVP ship because I'm, farming some ISK for a plex or new ships, then I'm damn sure going to ignore the guy trying to camp my mission in a Dram. Yep I'll just do like what happens now and move on to the next.
It's called efficiency. No matter what it's still going to be more profitable to ignore a mission that is getting camped and move on to the next.
Also CCP isn't gonna fix FW anyway because they are gonna be too busy working on null sec yet again pushing us aside and also their new shiny "contraband". Not to mention all the tears from the broken Incarna are gonna push us back even further.
Welcome to the next 18 months as if you shouldn't of expected that anyway. Anyone whom thinks they will work on low sec or FW anytime SoonÖ is dreaming. The only low sec buff that is coming is the Dramel nerf.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 22:08:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Mutnin on 19/06/2011 22:13:31
Originally by: chatgris
On the flip side - completely removing plexes and using missions would be great. They are spawned, LP splitting is based on a fleet basis. You just need to add something to the mission that allows the plex to be failed by the other side.
I'll also reply to this.. They can already be camped causing the mission to be not completed or at very least delayed. For the most part it's just a waste of time for both parties TBH as it's pretty obvious that stealth bomber isn't gonna fight anything that can camp it's mission.
Next "failing" a FW mission means faction standings loss. Sorry but CCP isn't going to change missions to the point that it could force people out of FW because they couldn't complete them. That would just be out right stupid game mechanics as well as the fact that people often have real life to deal with. (same thing happens with complexes in low sec or null so why should a FW mission be any different, if you don't want them to complete the mission then waste your time camping it)
This is a game, the closest you are going to get to forcing someone to fail a mission is just chasing them off. If CCP did it any other way, it would be one less reason for someone whom isn't l33t PVPer to log on. (ie 90% of EVE population)
edit.. also I'm still trying to figure out why mission farmers somehow hurt my PVP experience.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 04:18:00 -
[48]
Keep missions, make it easier to grief mission runners.
Keep plexes, pay out LP, perhaps by allowing multiple players to run timer more quickly (10 players orbiting button makes plex burn down 10 times as fast). ??
|
Julius Foederatus
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 05:36:00 -
[49]
The whole point I believe chat is trying to make is that competition for shared objections on either side forces pvp of some kind. By making plexes the source of LP and thus isk, it means more pvp because you actually have to compete with the other side to take the plex. The main benefit of it is that it will put those farmers in situations where they can actually be killed, or at the very least effectively griefed. It'll expand the realm of FW pvp beyond the narrow pipes and make it so that he with the biggest blob doesn't always win anymore.
I can't believe anyone thinks the current situation of mission running is a good thing. FWers need isk to fund our pvp, and while we can get it now, it's being farmed by people who have no interest in FW as a pvp enterprise into worthlessness. Hell, we have pirates in the Gal/Cal area who have FDU alts that mission to fund their operations against us. Maybe it's just me, but that's rather messed up and a perversion of the system.
The plex system can be tweaked so that you get more LP for doing contested plexes, more LP for killing enemies inside contested plexes. If you see someone exploiting, you can go kill their alt, or just close their plex. Plus, if it goes as I think it would, there would be plenty of people filling out systems looking to pvp others in plex fights.
Whatever your thoughts on the plex idea, I think everyone, except XG for some bizarre reason, thinks that FW as is needs a complete rehaul and some new mechanics to put PVP back at the fore.
|
BuzzyBeagle
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 11:49:00 -
[50]
i would like to thank Gunnyt31 for organizing and running a kickass fleet yesterday, i had a great first FW experience thanks to the more experienced PVP guys in the Fleet.
|
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 14:14:00 -
[51]
Actually Jules, I'm just suggesting a more fun way (IMO, you may like orbiting buttons for 35 minutes more) to grief alts farming FW LP.
But of course that means FW players would have to be out and about trying to grief the mission runners (which depending on the amount of griefing would potentially turn into mission running gangs with a more pvp focus) instead of spinning ships waiting for intel.
Bitterness over alts farming FW LP is the real issue here, and forcing everybody to run plexes for isk doesn't necessarily stop the farming by alts. It may just change the mechanics they use to farm. It won't necessarily encourage more fights either. If you bring a fleet out to farm plexes, then it may be in your opponent's best interest to let you farm away. That means he'll have plenty of defensive plexes to close over the next few days.
|
Julius Foederatus
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 14:29:00 -
[52]
Then why not simply make it so offensive plexes are worth more than defensive, lets say twice as much. Defensive plexes would only be worth as much in contested systems. That way the farmers have to either fight or get pushed out of the bigger rewards. And we can always change the button timers. Fact is mission running does not encourage pvp. You might can catch the odd bomber but eventually they will get wise and it'll just turn more mind numbing than it already is, if that's possible.
|
Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 15:37:00 -
[53]
Originally by: X Gallentius Bitterness over alts farming FW LP is the real issue here, and forcing everybody to run plexes for isk doesn't necessarily stop the farming by alts. It may just change the mechanics they use to farm. It won't necessarily encourage more fights either.
This... FW Missions work as advertised for those of us actively engaged in FW PvP. That their structure allows alts to farm them shouldn't be used as an argument to get rid of them for those of us that find them very useful. And, the fact is that if they are contested, they are almost impossible to complete solo, or even in a typical speed-tank/hitter duo.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 15:56:00 -
[54]
Two things are required for pvp:
1. One player/group wants to achieve an objective and another player/group wants to stop them (that could mean both groups want to control a L5 mission hub for example, or a Tech moon, etc.., both want to win a fight), and 2. Both sides must think they can achieve their objectives - whatever they are.
Right now missions lack a realistic way for the mission griefer to think he can win. A somewhat minor modification to the FW paradigm - a poison pill - would do that.
Doing this, IMO, would be more fun than forcing me to orbit a button for 20-35 minutes to grief an isk farmer or earn isk myself. But that's just me. YMMV. I'd be all for FW plexes being the sole source of LP as long as you gave me objectives to complete other than time spent in the plex.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 16:25:00 -
[55]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 20/06/2011 16:29:36
Originally by: Julius Foederatus Fact is mission running does not encourage pvp. You might can catch the odd bomber but eventually they will get wise and it'll just turn more mind numbing than it already is, if that's possible.
Red herring. Plexing doesn't encourage pvp. As you well know, closing plexes is most efficiently done by avoiding conflict either by blobbing or moving on to another system. Plexing for isk won't encourage fighting either. The last thing anybody wants to do while making isk is waste time actually fighting (you risk dying, and then reshipping).
Edit: It does allow for griefing however - at the cost of orbiting buttons by your FW alt.
|
Julius Foederatus
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 17:49:00 -
[56]
So we have plexes where one side can take the point from the other, even if it takes 30 minutes, versus missions, where you would have to sit for 10 hours or however long it takes for the mission to expire. Seems like a no brainer to me, and you would actually get something for kicking the enemy out.
At least with plexing, the pvp would be based around control. The more plexes you can complete, the more LP you get. Conversely, the less plexes your enemy completes, the less LP he gets, and the harder it is for him to make isk.
TBH, all this about plexes replacing missions is just a band aid fix. What would be best imo is to tie system ownership at the end stage level to the LP reward system, and also have penalties for system loss in place that make a faction more willing to defend said system. Hell maybe a combination of the two. But regardless, the lack of purpose in system ownership is at the root of FWs perceived problems atm.
|
Super Chair
Caldari Hell's Revenge
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 18:54:00 -
[57]
(Inb4walloftext strikes you perfectly for over 9000 damage)
I know everyone got really fixated on the whole replace FW missions with plexes, and how they want to grief people, etc, thing but I think thats not the only way to go about this. So lets get back on track to discussing other ideas as well.
I was thinking more along the lines of making VP meaningful (to help with one concept that I think really has a lot of potential for good fights, which is the plexes in FW), as right now VP is just an E-Peen Strokery stat. Hence I suggested some of the faction ships as exclusive rewards earlier for VP. I feel that FW missions could coexsist along side VP for kills/plexing but this alone isn't a magical "fix" for FW. I feel occupancy should be meaningful in addition to the VP idea. There are multitudes of threads out there about this so I won't discuss how we can make occupancy meaningful right now.
NPC balancing needs looked at (for instance, all EWAR could be removed or scaled down to be less effective than it is now). Plex Spawn mechanics could be better I admit and the aggro/NPC spawn mechanics need changing as well. (For example, NPCs do not shoot members of the opposite militia with good standings, which I feel should be changed to shooting everything besides friendly factions). NPCs should begin to spawn when an amarr/minnie alt touch the timer just as though they were caldari/gallente inside a gallente/caldari plex. Currently its not that way. If CCP can code the NPCs to not shoot someone with horrendus standings but still the same faction then they can easily change the code that the NPCs just shoot everything that isnt part of its own two allied factions.
Theres a lot of potential with the plexes (I think faction ships should be moved up a teir), as of right now any noobs joining faction war (for pvp) either go into minor plex to be shat on by a faction frig or join a blob fleet to get their merlin/incursus one vollied by a larger ship or drone swarm). These guys could use some love, I think one way of doing this is making it so that faction frigs are moved up a teir to mediums and up. The old days of frig/dessie gangs blowing eachother to bits were so fun! Nowadays most players in FW have been there awhile and have more SP, fly bigger/shinier ships, etc. I feel that there should be a niche for the new guy besides just dieing horribly attempting to get a point because the only (I using the word only very loosely here) tackle for blob fleets is a faction fit lach with the current way fleets fight :P.
TL;DR : Spwan mechanics for NPCs as well as plexes need looking at, aggro mechanics need looked at. VP is a possible way to create incentives for plexing if there were rewards for VP. System Occupancy should be meaningful, but not have nearly as severe consequences like losing sov in nullsec does, and finally, ship restrictions on plex gates need tweaked to include niches for all demographics of player age/experience.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:36:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Super Chair
TL;DR ... ship restrictions on plex gates need tweaked to include niches for all demographics of player age/experience.
Support ship restrictions in plexes
|
Archenom
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:39:00 -
[59]
It seems to me there are two large complaints in this thread:
1) I want more pew pew and the mechanic I see presented to me to help me get pew pew (Occupancy Mechanics/Plexing) does not reward me with anything other than maybe some pew, but more likely watching a button tick down)
And
2) FW Mission alts are overrunning FW missions and tanking the FW LP market. This is forcing me to run FW missions more to make the same ammount of isk, which is in return taking away from my pew pew time.
Something I have not seen suggested yet, to my suprise, is putting a weekly limit on FW missions. Cap it so you can run 1 mission per week per agent. Then we can still use FW missions as a source of income, but people can only do it so often. Along with this, increase the LP rewards from plexing/anti plexing and fix the mission rats. Do not cap the rewards from plexxing and it will funnel people into plexes for isk generation. An alternative is to keep the seperate reward structures (VPs and LPs) and then cap the number of purchases per week/month/whatever from the LP store but not the VP store. Either way this forces people into the plexes for any income beyond a certain point, and helps to keep the isk/lp ratio from continuing to sink into oblivion.
|
Deen Wispa
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 19:41:00 -
[60]
this is all moot considering CCP has stated that they won't look at FW for at least another year or so.
|
|
Super Chair
Caldari Hell's Revenge
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:41:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Archenom It seems to me there are two large complaints in this thread:
1) I want more pew pew and the mechanic I see presented to me to help me get pew pew (Occupancy Mechanics/Plexing) does not reward me with anything other than maybe some pew, but more likely watching a button tick down)
And
2) FW Mission alts are overrunning FW missions and tanking the FW LP market. This is forcing me to run FW missions more to make the same ammount of isk, which is in return taking away from my pew pew time.
Something I have not seen suggested yet, to my suprise, is putting a weekly limit on FW missions. Cap it so you can run 1 mission per week per agent. Then we can still use FW missions as a source of income, but people can only do it so often. Along with this, increase the LP rewards from plexing/anti plexing and fix the mission rats. Do not cap the rewards from plexxing and it will funnel people into plexes for isk generation. An alternative is to keep the seperate reward structures (VPs and LPs) and then cap the number of purchases per week/month/whatever from the LP store but not the VP store. Either way this forces people into the plexes for any income beyond a certain point, and helps to keep the isk/lp ratio from continuing to sink into oblivion.
Well I was thinking FW needed some more exclusive rewards that dont have to compete with highsec bear markets (AFAIK, the only items that cant be farmed in highsec by the legions of highsec missioners are the teir1 navy battleships, maybe navy capboosters too). Thats why I suggested VP for these rewards (to make incentives to fight over objectives, and at least alleviate (but not eliminate, i dont think thats possible) the impact farmers (who are in FW strictly to make isk and arent really "involved" in FW) on the values of the items obtainable from faction war (since maybe plexes will attract more pvpers and less farmers, making it harder to "farm" and not participate in FW).
|
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:05:00 -
[62]
Originally by: chatgris Edited by: chatgris on 17/06/2011 07:41:29 - Remove missions. Only way to get LP is to plex, something that the other side can take away from you, unlike a mission where you can just go away and come back later. It will force mission bears to pvp assuming that enough people care about plexes (which they should if it's the only way to make fw LP).
And to make the above work
- Fix plex spawning - Balance the rats - Faction/pirate ships get bumped up a tier
And FW could be a pvp nirvana.
I like the idea except I think under the current system most plexers are just carebears. So you are just moving the carebears from missions to plexes.
Until you notify the enemy militia about plexes being taken and do away with the rats so people can fit for pvp, plexing will remain a mostly pve activity.
WasnÆt it ank who said she did over 100 plexes in under a week and never engaged in any pvp? You can take away missions and give lp to plexers all you want but until something changes about plexing mechanics it will still be carebears earning the lp.
|
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:15:00 -
[63]
I agree with this logic. Its clear you have thought this through a bit. I just wish they would let the enemy militias know, so they could drop the npcs in the plexes, and we didn't have to fit our ships for pve in order to do the plexes.
Originally by: chatgris Edited by: chatgris on 19/06/2011 11:56:31
Originally by: Mutnin
For those that argue about getting rid of FW missions and instead giving rewards for plexing, what makes you think it would be any different with the farmers from how it is now?
Because farmers would need to compete with pvpers, and more importantly, other farmers for their rewards. Someone who came in a pvp ship could seize the plex the farmer was working on.
Originally by: Mutnin
We already see or have seen tons of noob alts farming plexes back in the day with barely any skills using recyclable noob alts. Meaning if it's rewarding people will figure out a way to farm them just as they do missions, WH's, high sec lvl 4's ect..ect..
Yes, but it will be more competitive. You can't do another person's mission. You can take, and complete for reward, another person's plex. Consider the current situation:
You find someone's mission. You chase them out. They go somewhere else until you get bored and finish the mission later.
Consider the improved situation:
You find someone in a plex. You chase them out. If they come back, you get pvp. If they go somewhere else, you wait and complete the plex making LP/ISK.
Originally by: Mutnin
Added to this how should the other 50% of FW members make their ISk once the after DT crew farms them out for the day? Are the guys that log in later in the day just **** out of luck because we know CCP will likely never fix the spawn mechanics.
Fixing spawn mechanics, NPC balance are crucial for the plex replacing missions to succeed. If CCP won't fix these issues, they should not replace missions with plexes.
Originally by: Mutnin
Last of all what is real the problem with FW missions? I see people whine about them all the time and TBH I really don't see why. Yes there are farmers, just like anything else, so what's whats difference from any other way to ISK grind and why does it affect you so much? TBH I think the only problem is it's not "easy" to gank them and takes a bit of luck & skill added with patience, something that 90% of EVE player base does not have.
It's a pure pve activity in what is supposed to be a pvp portion of the game. It's my belief that the mechanics of fw should be pvp centric.
The mission runner has to severely screw up to be caught. I've made about 80B ISK running fw missions through all hours of the day, and have never lost a ship to players. I didn't run a stealth bomber, I flew a dominix (pre location nerf) or a gila usually solo (because it's more profitable that way, no alts along for the ride), sometimes for 36 hours straight on a weekend.
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, I only wish there was a way to do FW missions in a PVP ship. When I first started doing them way back on the Minmatar side, I used to use a BC and had a decent amount of fights in them. Now days it's just too hard to move a BC around in any efficient manor to make it reasonable so bomber is the best option.
Moving a BC around is hard? I roam alone or with 2-3 people in a drake pretty much anytime I am playing. I used to rat in syndicate for hours in a drake as well. Moving a BC in lowsec is easy.
I do agree on the missions should be doable in a PVP ship. I joined the TLF to experiment, and I could do those missions in a pvp ship, was great fun. However, the issue still stays that someone who is just there to farm, you can't mess with them at all. It'd be great if there was a way to fail their mission, say a timer or something. But then, it's just a plex and hence my suggestion to remove missions and give rewards for plexes (along with fixing the damn plexing mechanics).
|
Julius Foederatus
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:22:00 -
[64]
I believe the context of that was that there just wasn't enough people plexing to provide pvp, not that she wasn't trying to pvp. So it would follow that if we attach actual incentives to it, more people will be drawn to plexing, and thus more pvp.
|
Chatgrus
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:30:00 -
[65]
Julius Foederatus' southern charm and dashing good looks cause severe imbalances in FW gameplay.
|
Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:30:00 -
[66]
Originally by: X Gallentius +1 for defensive plexing alts! Can't wait to get my Caldari alt up and running. Go to Sarenemi, cap an offensive plex and get some FW LP. Open next plex and have my minimum skill Caldari alt and get some FW LP. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Once my alt gets some skills up I'll buy it a dramiel and we can do this in Vifr and Athounon where there is no WT opposition.
pvp nirvana!
Why would anybody want to tie anything into the plexing mechanic that is mind numbingly boring 80% of the time?
Make the LP/time potential be: Offensive Plexing > Missions > Defensive Plexing
How's that for a win/win? Oh, and make it so you need to clear the enemy npc's off the field to cap a plex. That part of the mechanic bugs me.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:47:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 00:52:59
Originally by: Julius Foederatus So we have plexes where one side can take the point from the other, even if it takes 30 minutes, versus missions, where you would have to sit for 10 hours or however long it takes for the mission to expire. Seems like a no brainer to me, and you would actually get something for kicking the enemy out.
At least with plexing, the pvp would be based around control. The more plexes you can complete, the more LP you get. Conversely, the less plexes your enemy completes, the less LP he gets, and the harder it is for him to make isk.
TBH, all this about plexes replacing missions is just a band aid fix. What would be best imo is to tie system ownership at the end stage level to the LP reward system, and also have penalties for system loss in place that make a faction more willing to defend said system. Hell maybe a combination of the two. But regardless, the lack of purpose in system ownership is at the root of FWs perceived problems atm.
Except then you just make it wide open for the next obvious farm method of using noob alts in both Militias that require 0 skills. By having a alt in each milita you could then just put which ever toon in the plex that had control at that moment.
Now you have even easier farming and to top it off they can get LP's from both sides with ease.
I really think you guys are putting far too much emphasis on "out side" farmers. I fly around all over FW spaces and yes there are people running missions but it's nothing as bad as what you guys are trying to make it sound like.
I think it's more of the matter than people are mad because they don't get as much as they "used" to for their own FW farming so want to make a big deal out of FW farmers. Not to mention it's easy to see half you guys are also mad that it's not "easy" ganks of mission bears.
Again.. if I'm out trying to grind ISK to fund my PVP or game time, why on earth would I want to waste time risking a mission ship and possibly having to fly 16 jumps back to get a new one?
You guys are grasping on nothing more than a pipe dream if you really think people are gonna try to fight while on their grinds. Hell I used to fight during mine. I used a Navy Slicer & a bomber and fought pretty much anything but Dramiels that tried to camp my missions. Killed a few BCs, cruisers and several frigs like this, but also lost a few ships causing long time delays of getting back to the grind.
I eventually decided that while getting the occasional fight was fun, it was also too much of a PITA to go re-ship if I happened to lose, causing the grind time to be even longer.
This is exactly why any change will be just like it is now for 99.9% of the people running missions. They will just go dock up, cloak or move to the next because it's far too time consuming to risk losing your ship while you are trying to earn some ISK.
Right now IMHO FW mission work as intended but due to NPC's differences some sides have it a bit harder (ie Amarr & Gallente). Other than that it does what it intended to do, give us a decent ISK source that allows us to keep the meat grinder going with out having to leave for high sec for days of lame LVL4 farming.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:04:00 -
[68]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 21/06/2011 01:07:27
Originally by: Dirk Smacker
Make the LP/time potential be: Offensive Plexing > Missions > Defensive Plexing
How's that for a win/win? Oh, and make it so you need to clear the enemy npc's off the field to cap a plex. That part of the mechanic bugs me.
You had me at clear the enemy npc's off the field - as long as they automatically respawn when a set of them is dead and the plex closes immediately after the last one dies off. That way capping a plex or griefing a WT isn't dependent on me orbiting a button.
But then the alts who ran FW missions will just kill NPCs and still collect rewards. No win situation - those bastard afk mission running alts ruin everything!
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:18:00 -
[69]
Edited by: chatgris on 21/06/2011 01:19:42
Originally by: Mutnin You guys are grasping on nothing more than a pipe dream if you really think people are gonna try to fight while on their grinds.
I'm not looking for people to fight during their grinds. I'm looking to make some side ISK during my pvp. I am also looking for plexing to give me *anything* for chasing someone out of a plex and closing it (right now it feels like you lose when the opponent leaves the plex for you to capture). I could wait in a plex and make some LP while pvping, instead of just camping the tama gate in nourv for my pvp. (ofc, get rid of npc ewar, plex spawning fixes, faction ships getting kicked up a plex size etc to make this work).
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:48:00 -
[70]
Originally by: chatgris Edited by: chatgris on 21/06/2011 01:19:42
Originally by: Mutnin You guys are grasping on nothing more than a pipe dream if you really think people are gonna try to fight while on their grinds.
I'm not looking for people to fight during their grinds. I'm looking to make some side ISK during my pvp. I am also looking for plexing to give me *anything* for chasing someone out of a plex and closing it (right now it feels like you lose when the opponent leaves the plex for you to capture). I could wait in a plex and make some LP while pvping, instead of just camping the tama gate in nourv for my pvp. (ofc, get rid of npc ewar, plex spawning fixes, faction ships getting kicked up a plex size etc to make this work).
Yes that's understandable, I wouldn't mind ISK while I PVP as well. But was a lot of talk of "replacing" the FW missions with that plexing idea, which is what I was replying to.
|
|
Julius Foederatus
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 05:10:00 -
[71]
The issue is that we have this entire part of the eve game that's supposed to promote pvp. But FW missions don't promote pvp. We have people who don't participate at all and are only here for the FW LP items. We have people who leave FW but keep their alts in so they can make isk. Hell, we have pirates who keep alts in to not only grief us but sell FW items from our store so they can keep pewing us. Only a ****** would say this is working as intended, and clearly we need something better.
I'd be fine with eliminating plexes as they are now, but you need some kind of objective-based system to control system occupancy. You can't make it based on kills for many reasons.
One idea is to eliminate missions, give tiny LP rewards for plexes and give huge rewards for killing enemies in contested systems and even bigger rewards for capturing a system. |
Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 12:52:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Julius Foederatus Only a ****** would say this is working as intended, and clearly we need something better.
Better than what? What we have now is the ability to go out and make decent isk [i]on demand[i]. This means we get to choose when to make isk. Now, I'm not against changing around LP bonuses for PvP kills or plex/system captures, but the missions allow us to make isk when we want. We're not dependent on plex spawns or the enemy showing up. If I can only play for an hour, I can grab a few missions and go.
Again, we can hate all of the FW alts--despise them for taking advantage of the game mechanics if you want. But if I need to go out and pick up a couple hundred million in a week to replace ships, I'm glad it exists so I can afford to fly ships other than T1 frigs and cruisers.
|
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:15:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Julius Foederatus I believe the context of that was that there just wasn't enough people plexing to provide pvp, not that she wasn't trying to pvp. So it would follow that if we attach actual incentives to it, more people will be drawn to plexing, and thus more pvp.
Are you talking about Ank? If so you are just wrong. She thought pvp in eve was immoral. IÆm not kidding. She created that thread not long after fw was put in game bragging how she did all these plexes and achived the highest fw title so fast with no pvp. She was a diehard carebear.
If you look in that thread you will see at least one poster already saw that the militias players need to be informed when plexes are entered or plexing will continue to be a pve activity.
More people plexing means more pvp? Yes but you have to hit a *large* threshold number of people doing plexes for it to make an appreciable difference. When she did this there still were allot more pilots plexing than there are now. Even then they were very far from having enough plexers to make it a pvp activity. Even if you remove missions you wonÆt get that threshold number where it is more cost effective to pvp for a plex than to just run to another.
You must also let the militias know when plexes are entered. Also they should drop the rats so you can fit your ship for pvp!
I agree itÆs a good idea to make the plexes more profitable but it will remain pve as long as the enemy militia is not notified and there are rats there that you have to ôtankö.
|
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:52:00 -
[74]
Warning: Wall of text
First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.
Were it not for FW missions I could not afford to replace my losses. I run FW missions, alone, in a SB where I have to navigate many jumps through enemy lowsec,where I can get caught and killed on a gate( occasionally I do), then run missions in a paper bag ship where I get neuted, damped, webbed, and, if I'm not careful, scrambled. Enemy wts and pirates enter these missions with regularity, and, if i am not careful, I get killed, ( as i do occasionally).Other guys use a buddy( requiring 2 guys to run the mission) or a T3( requiting some investment in both coin and training to run them). I run risks, and I lose ships doing it.This is not free ISK IMHO.
I also run plexes.Dont really like to, dont have much of an interest in it, but i do it for 1 reason and 1 reason only. I get fights doing it.As for plexes being broken, I ask a simple question.If they are so easy to run, why haven't any systems in Cal/ Gal war changed hands in ages???I'll tell you why. Because anytime a system gets close to flipping the other side comes out and puts up a fight. That's where I fight, if I am doing plexes.
Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.
I hear a great deal about how " this one blobbed and that one blobbed and ruined it and blueballed us". Well, shame on you then, that as a commander you were unable to bring about an engagement on your terms.A good FC knows how to dictate the terms of the engagement. I used to fly with an fc ( Andraz)who has now left militia who would take a 20 man fleet and fight a running battle with a 50 man fleet, and at the end of 3 hours he had shredded them, typically getting 20+ kills for about half a dozen losses.He did this by dictating the terms of the engagement, shaping the battlefield and moving and striking in a timely fashion, forcing the enemy to displace from his chosen positions and hitting them whilst they relocated.When they advanced, he withdrew his inferior force. When they fell back he attacked swiftly and picked off anyone he could.He maintained the initiative, dictated the tempo, got inside the enemy commanders decision cycle and exploited the confusion of battle to cause as much friction for the enemy FC as he could, whilst minimizing his own by controlling his fleets comms and making the commanders intent clearly understood to the entire fleet.This, IMHO opinion should be what FW warfare is about.That, and applying this ability to acheive strategic goals.If the game doesnt give you any, set your own.I can come up with half a dozen ideas where we could all get rich without running plexes or FW missions. It's what the big boys do in 0.0
The resources of Blackrise are largely untapped, and if they are they are by other alliances who dont even bother to commit significant forces to defend them. Blackrise is ore rich. Noones mines there worth mentioning. There are 17 tech moons i think, in BR.
This is a war.A war is an act of violence to compel your enemy to fulfil your will. Militias should decide exactly what there will is and go and fight that war. I know what mine is. Going out and Jousting is not war. Random roams with no strategic objective is not war.its fun, its pew pew, its training. Its an isk sink. To my mind any real war should be waged for monetary gain, to build the economic backbone for a bigger and better war machine.
In short, we in FW are Lazy War is Hell- William Tecumseh Sherman |
Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:23:00 -
[75]
Here are some key benefits of FW missions besides the isk/LP:
1. You learn the warzone. It was many months after I had entered FW with a PvP corp (who scoffed at mission-runners) that I realized the benefit of having to zig-zag across Gallente space. No longer did I have no freakin clue where the fleet was on our roams without staring at a DOTLAN map.
2. You learn who lives in the warzone. Maybe even more important than the geography is learning what corps, and what kinds of corps, live in areas outside of the main pipes. That kind of info delivered to an FC could mean the difference between getting a fight or not, or not wasting 10 minutes of the fleet's time trying to get one.
3. Early intelligence. Running missions just before the normal fleet times? You can get valuable intel on the war targets, pirates, or unexpected visitors from nul sec that wouldn't be gathered by the normal forward scout or spy alt.
There's a few others dealing with the soft skills you learn just by being out there on your own in low sec, avoiding the sharks and completing somewhat risky missions, but those are the benefits for those who engage in PvP and do FW missions as an income source.
|
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:23:00 -
[76]
Gallente commanders are able, with 2000 less people in there militia, to field a fleet in about 1/4 the time it takes us, typically.Their response times are much faster.Their fleet is usually tasked and fitted for the particular type of fight they want to have.They choose their engagements and decline the ones not on their terms. Kudos to them.
Recently Caldari fleets have had a string of victories, wherein we were able to dictate the terms of the engagement, where the Cal commanders put out a proper fleet fitted to counter what they expected the Gallente to bring.I would like to see these wins followed up on and used to bring more pressure on the gals, as opposed to just going back and breaking the fleet.
What I dont like to see is when we go out in a huge fleet, let ourselves get eyescrewed by gal scouts, who then relay our fleet comp to Gal FCs who in turn are able to task their fleets for what we have brought. Likewise, going out with a large fkleet, when they enemy cant muster the same numbers leads to us gettiing " blueballed" only because we allowed our fleet to get scouted.More thought should be put into this Use 2 manuever elements. Use a larger scouting element to drive our gal recon and scouts.Use deception.relling the gallente " ok hear we come, and if you dont come out we are going home" smacks of tactics used from before Nelson fought at Trafalgar. You dont ask the enemy " please fight us".You make them.You do that by imposing consequences on them when they don't. This is where militia falls short.Far as "blobs" go, near as i can tell, a blob is any fleet bigger than yours.Blobs are not the problem.We in militia focus on game mechanics, and the science of war. War is both an Art and a Science.It's time we spent some effort focusing on the art end of it, as opposed to whining about game mechanics.
I do have 2 suggestions to help with game mechanics.
1)If occupancy is held for 3 months in a system, and all adjacent systems to that system, then system sov changes.The only stations that need change are the FW stations.Guaranteed if someoen is about to lose the ability to pull FW missions in an area they will sure as hell fight for it.
2)link the ability to run FW missions with rank in militia, rank that can only be gained by running plexes.You wanna run lvl 4 FW missions, then you better be a brigidier general in militia.would do a lot to get rid of guys who never fight or do anything for militia and just missions *****. War is Hell- William Tecumseh Sherman |
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:27:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Dirk Smacker Here are some key benefits of FW missions besides the isk/LP:
1. You learn the warzone. It was many months after I had entered FW with a PvP corp (who scoffed at mission-runners) that I realized the benefit of having to zig-zag across Gallente space. No longer did I have no freakin clue where the fleet was on our roams without staring at a DOTLAN map.
2. You learn who lives in the warzone. Maybe even more important than the geography is learning what corps, and what kinds of corps, live in areas outside of the main pipes. That kind of info delivered to an FC could mean the difference between getting a fight or not, or not wasting 10 minutes of the fleet's time trying to get one.
3. Early intelligence. Running missions just before the normal fleet times? You can get valuable intel on the war targets, pirates, or unexpected visitors from nul sec that wouldn't be gathered by the normal forward scout or spy alt.
There's a few others dealing with the soft skills you learn just by being out there on your own in low sec, avoiding the sharks and completing somewhat risky missions, but those are the benefits for those who engage in PvP and do FW missions as an income source.
THIS War is Hell- William Tecumseh Sherman |
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:39:00 -
[78]
Edited by: jackaloped on 21/06/2011 15:40:31
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.
How many hours go by where you are just warping around looking for fight? What about waiting for a fleet to form to just go roaming in a large gang ganking stragglers? That is not my bag. FW should be exciting stuff. When you log in you should immediately be told where you are needed to fight and there should be literally dozens of fights going on in all the systems all the time.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.
The game mechanics are bad. FW should be involve constant fighting all through the fw regions. Instead its waiting for one blob to form to fight another blob that will then dock reship and chase the next blob. ItÆs really the problem for all of eve. FW should be the solution but ccp ignores it.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
In short, we in FW are Lazy
Yeah we want to play a computer game without having to trade in a real life like the ôbig boysö in null sec.
|
Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:40:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Julius Foederatus The issue is that we have this entire part of the eve game that's supposed to promote pvp. But FW missions don't promote pvp. We have people who don't participate at all and are only here for the FW LP items. We have people who leave FW but keep their alts in so they can make isk. Hell, we have pirates who keep alts in to not only grief us but sell FW items from our store so they can keep pewing us. Only a ****** would say this is working as intended, and clearly we need something better.
I still don't know why people are so intent on eliminating FW missions when those who only grind them have no effect on the war. Some people who only do them to support their FW PvP. They may have to go far away to run L4's in safety, or clone out to rat in nul sec. That leaves them far away from the fight when battle opportunities arise. Some would have to quit from time to time to pile up a ton of isk.
Originally by: Julius Foederatus I'd be fine with eliminating plexes as they are now, but you need some kind of objective-based system to control system occupancy. You can't make it based on kills for many reasons.
Yes! Like some sort of control center in place of a bunker you need to defeat increasingly more difficult waves of npc's, both there and at spawns (maybe at locations given through hacking), that only a decent-sized fleet could complete totally. Make the isk payout go up exponentially so 1-2 alts can't grind the first few stages. They already have the fleet payout system down with Incursions, That would be great.
My fear is that I hear from time to time DUST won't be impacting sovereignty right at launch. That leaves FW as the system DUST matches will have an impact on. With no word on touching the FW mechanic in the near future, and with DUST development possibly being done around the current system, we're likely screwed with the same broken FW for a long, long time.
|
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:49:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Dirk Smacker
Originally by: Julius Foederatus The issue is that we have this entire part of the eve game that's supposed to promote pvp. But FW missions don't promote pvp. We have people who don't participate at all and are only here for the FW LP items. We have people who leave FW but keep their alts in so they can make isk. Hell, we have pirates who keep alts in to not only grief us but sell FW items from our store so they can keep pewing us. Only a ****** would say this is working as intended, and clearly we need something better.
I still don't know why people are so intent on eliminating FW missions when those who only grind them have no effect on the war. Some people who only do them to support their FW PvP. They may have to go far away to run L4's in safety, or clone out to rat in nul sec. That leaves them far away from the fight when battle opportunities arise. Some would have to quit from time to time to pile up a ton of isk.
The reason is economics. If there are no more missions then you get the fw lp by plexes. So they will run plexes in order to get lp. More people running plexes should lead to more pvp because either side can profit from them.
Originally by: Julius Foederatus I'd be fine with eliminating plexes as they are now, but you need some kind of objective-based system to control system occupancy. You can't make it based on kills for many reasons.
Yes! Like some sort of control center in place of a bunker you need to defeat increasingly more difficult waves of npc's, both there and at spawns (maybe at locations given through hacking), that only a decent-sized fleet could complete totally. Make the isk payout go up exponentially so 1-2 alts can't grind the first few stages. They already have the fleet payout system down with Incursions, That would be greatà..
DonÆt you have plenty of opportunities to fight red xes in this game already? Incursions, high sec missions low sec missions, null sec pirate missions, anomalies, sleeper sites etc.? Do we have to make fw yet another opportunity to shoot red xes? It would be nice if ccp designed one single mechanic for small gang pvp.
|
|
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:53:00 -
[81]
Originally by: jackaloped Edited by: jackaloped on 21/06/2011 15:40:31
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.
How many hours go by where you are just warping around looking for fight? What about waiting for a fleet to form to just go roaming in a large gang ganking stragglers? That is not my bag. FW should be exciting stuff. When you log in you should immediately be told where you are needed to fight and there should be literally dozens of fights going on in all the systems all the time.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.
The game mechanics are bad. FW should be involve constant fighting all through the fw regions. Instead its waiting for one blob to form to fight another blob that will then dock reship and chase the next blob. ItÆs really the problem for all of eve. FW should be the solution but ccp ignores it.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
In short, we in FW are Lazy
Yeah we want to play a computer game without having to trade in a real life like the ôbig boysö in null sec.
I'll be damned if i can find any kills in any board on your char, so obviously this is an alt of your main who I'm sure has a great many kills, so clearly you know of what you speak( not that I've ever seen you around) but I'm in fleets pretty much the whole time I'm online, and I get plenty of action.BTW, I am immediately told where to go when I log on, for the record.Im no great pilot, but im busy enough that i am neglecting other things in game i could be doing besides PvP, but I've got 30 kills last 7 days, nothing great, but keeps me interested.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Tanaka+Sekigahara
How you doing? War is Hell- William Tecumseh Sherman |
Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:02:00 -
[82]
Originally by: jackaloped
The reason is economics. If there are no more missions then you get the fw lp by plexes. So they will run plexes in order to get lp. More people running plexes should lead to more pvp because either side can profit from them.
Oh, I hear that. The thing is CCP loves navy ships dropping in value. They want to see more of them fielded in PvP and exploded.
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
DonÆt you have plenty of opportunities to fight red xes in this game already? Incursions, high sec missions low sec missions, null sec pirate missions, anomalies, sleeper sites etc.? Do we have to make fw yet another opportunity to shoot red xes? It would be nice if ccp designed one single mechanic for small gang pvp.
The smaller the number you design the mechanic to, the easier it is for people to use alts to grind them. I thought that's what you wanted to limit?
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:13:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Dirk Smacker Oh, I hear that. The thing is CCP loves navy ships dropping in value. They want to see more of them fielded in PvP and exploded.
I agree with CCP. Faction war should be fought with navy faction ships! And petition CCP to have Arnerore Rylerave redesign the Gallente faction cruisers!
|
Mekhana
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:17:00 -
[84]
Plexing is just terrible from the ground up. CCP needs to look at games like Team Fortress 2 and how the capture system works. Basically make the cap time last a lot shorter, add a series of cap points with a final or an optional single big capture point that is harder to claim and takes longer.
I'd say get rid of plexing altogether. It doesn't really encourage fights, sane people wouldn't even touch it with a 10 foot pole, except those that want to make the lives of certain individuals a living hell.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:40:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 16:50:27
Originally by: Dirk Smacker
Oh, I hear that. The thing is CCP loves navy ships dropping in value. They want to see more of them fielded in PvP and exploded.
If that's the case, they need to do a bit more to help out the ships than getting a lower cost. It's not so much their cost that keep's most Navy Faction Cruiser & up from being used in PVP, but the mere fact that most aren't much better than their T1 counterpart.
The Navy Frigs are all pretty damn good, but Cruiser & up only a few of the ships are worth flying.
Example the Navy Omen & Stabber are really what the T1 versions "should" have been. The Navy Vexor gets a bit better done bandwidth option, but the drone bay is so small you get suck with out any lights if you choose to go for the 4 heavy drones, which gimps the ship completely for dealing with frigs. The Caracal gets an extra launcher & mid, but is still no match for a standard Rupture or Vexor.
Out of any of them it's typically just the Stabber FI that sees much usage other than I once saw a fleet of Navy Augoror's with like 6 guardians in Met.
As for the BS's well these days you don't even see many T1 variants roaming around other than in high sec.
|
Master Andrew
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:18:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Master Andrew on 21/06/2011 18:24:58 Link station docking rights to capping systems - this could be used to restrict the oppositions ability to farm missions and force lp farmers to actually pvp to defend their precious fw agent systems. currently there is no reason to run plexes - i know that alot of pvp happens in these plexes but honestly this is between a very small number of pilots who fight each other over and over all day - it would benefit fw as a whole to make a more direct link between controling systems through plexing and the strategic control over low sec (station docking rights/agent/pos anchoring rights etc). But as we all know CCP doesnt care enough about fw to listen or read any of this thread so moan away - it wont make any difference, i mean ffs they didnt even turn up at their own fw event during fanfest,(so much for an apology and round table during the AT as we were promised) Such a shame as fw is imho the best way for new players to get into eve pvp and learn - a good experience in fw can lead to a long term subscriber for ccp, in the same way joining fw as a new sub and seeing that ccp doesnt give a crap is a good way to discourage a new sub from staying in game if they are having any doubts. I dont normally moan on forums but it seems so obvious to me from a business perspective that either ccp is collectively stupid or as many of us suspect ccp want to remove fw from eve, and running it into the ground helps them to reduce numbers until they quietly remove fw altogether
|
Super Chair
Caldari Hell's Revenge
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:23:00 -
[87]
One major reason I have been seeing the price of faction ships dropping is because of they are now on market rather than contracts. Undercutting someone is firstly, now cheaper (the deposit could be anywhere from 500k to a couple mil (or more) isk+brokers fees,depending on the value of the ship, and this is just for one ship, imagine the cost trying to pull down 20 ship contracts all at once to undercut) so it wasn't economical to continously undercut someone when faction ships were exclusively available via the contract systems. Now with the open market, you merely pay a 100 isk brokers fee to undercut someone. With the contract system you'd lose millions of isk each time you undercut.
Secondly, it's easier to undercut someone on market than with contracts. You can have 20 ship hulls on a single order and simply update them all within a minute to undercut someone. There was a little more time and isk involved in undercutting with the ships being exclusively available via contract, hence people usually werent arsed to be that competitive to make sales resulting in higher prices. Now you have probably the same number of people continously sniping eachother at the market hubs causing the value of the ships to drop. Rather than remain static.
And as far as the navy caracal goes, it gets 1 extra highslot, same number of mids, and 2 more lowslots than the original to fit powergrid modules to use that said extra highslot if you arent aml fit (And then be less speedy/ganky than the rest because the other races get to use most of their slots since they arent completely powergrid deprived like a lot of caldari ships are, not to mention if a caldari cruiser ship tries to fit to outspeed/out dps (hams/heavies) a simliar ship of cruiser size its pretty much a sitting duck to many frigs.) Which is why they're used for sniping (lol warp off before missiles hit) and killing frigs, not much else. Same can be said about a lot of other cruisers that are "stuck" into one role (Bait maller, frig killing caracal). Some other races have a little more flexability in how they can fit their ships, but then again not by much. I hope this winter when they rebalance cruisers they open up a world of possibilities besides baity amarr cruisers, frig killing caldari ones, and "I hope I can get into range before my drones/myself die" gallente ones :P
|
Julius Foederatus
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:24:00 -
[88]
I don't know why everyone thinks that when we say we want to get rid of FW missions it translates to not being able to earn any LP/isk. That is not the intention at all. What we want, or at least what I want, is a system where you have to actually participate and have a stake in FW in order to earn isk from it. Is that so wrong? Or are we really so devolved that we think all eve mechanics should be corrupted by farmers?
Allow me to put forward a proposal.
Lets start by giving proper LP for kills. Lets use a metric and do it proportionally from there. A start would be 10k LP for a t1, tier 1 battleship kill, 15k for a tier 2 BS, and 30k for a tier 3 battleship kill. We can spread it by damage done on the killmail or simply spread it evenly based on who's on the killmail. For t1 ships we can simply make the LP payout proportional to the cost of the ship, using the tier 1 battleship as a base. So a tier 2 BC would be about 5k LP, a tier 1 bc more like 3-3.5k lp, and so on.
Now, for plexing/system capture, lets make it so that it actually attracts people to pvp and fight over it. Lets say doing a plex in an uncontested system gets you something like 1k lp. It could be less than that for all I care. Now since system capture is on a sliding scale mechanism, the closer you get to the magic number of plexes, the amount of LP you get for completing a plex is double what it was initially. So if your side does about 10 plexes, and hypothetically it takes 20 to capture a system, the plex you're doing would payout 20k lp.
Lets have that be like incursions where it goes to every fleet member that completes the plex and is on grid. Maybe even ditch the timer aspect for tougher NPCs and treat it on a DPS dealt basis, much like incursions are done now, though not quite as tough as that. This keeps farmers from being able to go in with 1 alt and get their LP.
Of course, we'd have to treat defensive and offensive plexing differently to avoid the temptation for people to simply let the offensive side get as close as it can to system capture and only then have it come back down. Offensive plexing would function as above with the proportional payouts, but defensive plexing would be treated like we do incursions now. Each plex would be on the sliding scale, but you would only get the LP if you uncontest the system. That way it becomes a disincentive to allow the other side to get too close to system capture, because you could never get your LP if you let them get too far.
Then we need incentives for system capture itself. We need proportionally large benefits so that capturing a system rewards the sheer amount of effort put in to take it. Lets say that on system capture, everyone in the fleet gets a bonus of 500k-1m LP, with a further bonus of maybe 100k LP that goes to everyone in the militia, regardless of whether they were there or not. The reason for this is that plexing and system capture spans multiple timezones and players who aren't on at the exact right time of day should still get something for contributing, even if they're not actually there shooting the bunker.
At the same time we need penalties for losing systems so that people are sufficiently motivated to fight in their defense. Perhaps a faction standing hit when a system is lost, or maybe a direct LP loss. More controversially, I'd like to see some kind of system put in place so that a pilot is denied docking rights at station owned by a corp or faction that he has -5.0 standings with. Whichever faction occupies the space said pilot is in can waive these restrictions if he does not have such bad standing with them. That way, everyone who affects FW now, from enemy militiamen, to pirates, to the suppliers who give us our gear, would be in turn affected by the fortunes of the different contenders in the FW arena in which they live and play.
|
Deen Wispa
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:39:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 16:50:27
Originally by: Dirk Smacker
Oh, I hear that. The thing is CCP loves navy ships dropping in value. They want to see more of them fielded in PvP and exploded.
If that's the case, they need to do a bit more to help out the ships than getting a lower cost. It's not so much their cost that keep's most Navy Faction Cruiser & up from being used in PVP, but the mere fact that most aren't much better than their T1 counterpart.
The Navy Frigs are all pretty damn good, but Cruiser & up only a few of the ships are worth flying.
Example the Navy Omen & Stabber are really what the T1 versions "should" have been. The Navy Vexor gets a bit better done bandwidth option, but the drone bay is so small you get suck with out any lights if you choose to go for the 4 heavy drones, which gimps the ship completely for dealing with frigs. The Caracal gets an extra launcher & mid, but is still no match for a standard Rupture or Vexor.
Out of any of them it's typically just the Stabber FI that sees much usage other than I once saw a fleet of Navy Augoror's with like 6 guardians in Met.
As for the BS's well these days you don't even see many T1 variants roaming around other than in high sec.
agree as well. i'm not a big frig pilot but prefer to go with a cruiser. but i just don't like flying navy vexors. in fact, i traded my LP in for a Stabber Fleet due to the above reasons.
Someone mentioned about adding in Navy BCs which I'm sure would bring more people into FW. Though, I'd hate to see a Drake Navy issue come out considering the normal Drake is OP as it is.
|
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:40:00 -
[90]
I see you ignored all the questions I asked about how long it takes to find fun pvp under the actual mechanics and instead chose to post your killboard stats.
How many good fights do you get from the time you sign in until the time you sign out? How many hours per good fight?
Anyone can get a bunch of kills. Its not that hard. But finding good fights is a different story.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
Originally by: jackaloped Edited by: jackaloped on 21/06/2011 15:40:31
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.
How many hours go by where you are just warping around looking for fight? What about waiting for a fleet to form to just go roaming in a large gang ganking stragglers? That is not my bag. FW should be exciting stuff. When you log in you should immediately be told where you are needed to fight and there should be literally dozens of fights going on in all the systems all the time.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.
The game mechanics are bad. FW should be involve constant fighting all through the fw regions. Instead its waiting for one blob to form to fight another blob that will then dock reship and chase the next blob. ItÆs really the problem for all of eve. FW should be the solution but ccp ignores it.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
In short, we in FW are Lazy
Yeah we want to play a computer game without having to trade in a real life like the ôbig boysö in null sec.
I'll be damned if i can find any kills in any board on your char, so obviously this is an alt of your main who I'm sure has a great many kills, so clearly you know of what you speak( not that I've ever seen you around) but I'm in fleets pretty much the whole time I'm online, and I get plenty of action.BTW, I am immediately told where to go when I log on, for the record.Im no great pilot, but im busy enough that i am neglecting other things in game i could be doing besides PvP, but I've got 30 kills last 7 days, nothing great, but keeps me interested.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Tanaka+Sekigahara
How you doing?
|
|
Mekhana
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:43:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Mekhana on 21/06/2011 18:44:02 I get plenty of good fights at certain times. Usually within a hour or two from the same window.
Sometimes fights will even be arranged between both sides.
The secret is to know when to be around or simply learn to do something in the spare time.
|
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:49:00 -
[92]
Julius
People will put their alts in the other militia and kill them in fully insured ships to exploit the lp for pvp.
As far as more lp for plex yes it can and should be done. I'm not sure about your method. I think a simpler method would just be to give lp based on the size of the plex and the amount of time it takes to run.
I'm not interested in being part of large coodinated efforts. I don't have the time to commit to the game for that. If you do I would suggest going to null sec. I think FW should be available for those who like pvp but don't have time to hang around online all that often.
|
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:54:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Mekhana Edited by: Mekhana on 21/06/2011 18:44:02 I get plenty of good fights at certain times. Usually within a hour or two from the same window.
Sometimes fights will even be arranged between both sides.
The secret is to know when to be around or simply learn to do something in the spare time.
Arranged fights are proof that the mechanics are failing.
Plus having a good fight every hour or 2 is pretty poor. You should be able to reliably get 3 good fights in an hour, sometimes 5 or 6. Otherwise this is really just a game for people with way too much time on their hands.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:58:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Deen Wispa
Someone mentioned about adding in Navy BCs which I'm sure would bring more people into FW. Though, I'd hate to see a Drake Navy issue come out considering the normal Drake is OP as it is.
Well not to totally derail the topic into ships.
I think best option for more Navy ship versions would be to follow the example of the Navy Frigs. Instead of creating say a Navy Issue Drake or Hurricane for example create a new ship instead.
What I'd like to see, would be a new class of Navy Destroyers but as much as I love to fly BC's, I'm not so sure making Navy BC's would be a good idea. As you mentioned Drakes for example are already pretty good as well as most of the others (Canes, Harbs, Myrms ect..).
I think creating a Navy class of BC's might end up with them being a bit too OP, due to the fact BC's are already pretty much the best all around ships in the game.
|
Deen Wispa
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:01:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Deen Wispa on 21/06/2011 19:02:23
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Mekhana Edited by: Mekhana on 21/06/2011 18:44:02 I get plenty of good fights at certain times. Usually within a hour or two from the same window.
Sometimes fights will even be arranged between both sides.
The secret is to know when to be around or simply learn to do something in the spare time.
Arranged fights are proof that the mechanics are failing.
Plus having a good fight every hour or 2 is pretty poor. You should be able to reliably get 3 good fights in an hour, sometimes 5 or 6. Otherwise this is really just a game for people with way too much time on their hands.
3 good fights in an hour? LOL. Curious to know what your current pvp experience is in EVE that you would suggest that?
What you are suggesting does not exist anywhere in FW nor EVE. That's more of a FPS; log in and shoot stuff. Eve nor FW just isn't designed for on-demand pew.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:02:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 19:03:43
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Mekhana Edited by: Mekhana on 21/06/2011 18:44:02 I get plenty of good fights at certain times. Usually within a hour or two from the same window.
Sometimes fights will even be arranged between both sides.
The secret is to know when to be around or simply learn to do something in the spare time.
Arranged fights are proof that the mechanics are failing.
Plus having a good fight every hour or 2 is pretty poor. You should be able to reliably get 3 good fights in an hour, sometimes 5 or 6. Otherwise this is really just a game for people with way too much time on their hands.
I think you have an awful lot of wishful thinking and don't understand reality so well. EVE isn't WOW arena PVP, it's a bit more complicated and risk is involved with fights. Meaning ship losses can only be sustained at a reasonable rate for most players involved.
Tossing away 5 ships in a day for example is not sustainable for most players ISK as well as replacement time wise. (ie takes time to move in resupplies to most forward bases)
This isn't a respawn with new ship game.
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:11:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Julius Foederatus Lets start by giving proper LP for kills.
We went over this a million times in the weeks prior to the current LP-for-Kills was introduced and nothing has changed. Buy BS -> Insure BS -> blow up BS with alt in enemy militia -> repeat ad nauseum.
Originally by: Julius Foederatus Now, for plexing/system capture...
Unless plexes actually become hard as hell to do and/or are severely restricted in spawn number the farming will increase to insane levels. Amarr takes 15 plexes in Auga, leaves to let Minmatar take 15, return to take 15 .. same arrangement in Kourmonen - ad nauseum. Once ISK enters the picture in amounts significant enough to warrant such a change the pew will be limited to arranged bouts (more than it is now).
Originally by: Julius Foederatus Then we need incentives for system capture itself.
HELL NO! Have you ever plexed extensively? Personally been involved in 20-30 system flips and I can guarantee you that the work is 100% in the plexing. Paying people for not even participating is folly beyond comprehension and a slap in the face of honest plexers .. by all means reward the plexing and maybe have some little benefit from occupying a system but there is no way any of the old guard would go for a scheme like that.
Bottom line: If something can be exploited you can be damn sure it will be to the extreme. The only way to promote pew over plexes is to regulate their spawning into a handful of systems at a time (ie. the frontline concept). If they spawn willy-nilly as is the case now, people will just run to next open beacon at the first sign of trouble.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:19:00 -
[98]
The biggest problem with the plexing system, is it was not created specifically for FW. Plexing & system captures were put into FW as null sec sov mechanic test and once CCP decided not to use it in null, they pretty much ignored it in FW as well.
The irony is combined with system upgrades in Null the plexing system if reworked a bit could actually work out in null as a incentive to get small gang warfare.
|
Princess Nexxala
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:22:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Princess Nexxala on 21/06/2011 19:23:45 I agree arranged fights are not nearly as fun and proof of faults in the FW system. There is currently no incentive to pew besides epeen and the fun of it. Why that isn't enough for some people I a can't say. Personally, blowing your **** up is the entire reason I play this game.
Your second point is just silly. Sure there are times when you are getting fights constantly, but there are also nights that fights are hard to come by. Getting a fight is one of the hardest skills to perfect in Eve PvP. It has nothing to do with FW. I get more fights in lowsec FW then I ever have in Null. And highsec PvP is a ****ing joke.
Originally by: jackaloped
Arranged fights are proof that the mechanics are failing.
Plus having a good fight every hour or 2 is pretty poor. You should be able to reliably get 3 good fights in an hour, sometimes 5 or 6. Otherwise this is really just a game for people with way too much time on their hands.
|
Julius Foederatus
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:24:00 -
[100]
Originally by: jackaloped Julius
People will put their alts in the other militia and kill them in fully insured ships to exploit the lp for pvp.
As far as more lp for plex yes it can and should be done. I'm not sure about your method. I think a simpler method would just be to give lp based on the size of the plex and the amount of time it takes to run.
I'm not interested in being part of large coodinated efforts. I don't have the time to commit to the game for that. If you do I would suggest going to null sec. I think FW should be available for those who like pvp but don't have time to hang around online all that often.
To the first point, then we can scale the rewards down a bit. But I highly doubt you would make enough isk to justify the effort required to farm at that level.
As to the second point, if you're not interested in large coordinated efforts, don't take part. There's nothing stopping you from doing your own thing or just participating in the initial stages, or even participating in the large fights if you happen to be on.
But we're talking about two different things here. There's a difference between participating as a casual player and getting rewarded as a casual player. There's nothing in my proposal that stops a casual player from pvping at his leisure. What it does stop is casual players being able to be rewarded at the same level as a hardcore fw player.
FW should be like any enterprise, you get out of it what you put in. The situation for hardcore FW players as it is now is, while not as bad as it used to be, still one of diminishing returns. FW missions as they are now, in addition to doing absolutely nothing to promote pvp, are a tool for people who are not directly involved in FW to make money that we need in order to keep fighting. Other than simply not participating, the farmers sole existence is to make isk, which means selling the items that we need to sell to keep fighting, pushing our prices down and making it harder for us to participate in FW. So these farmers are indirectly hurting FW by killing the cash flow that is needed to sustain FW activities.
Surely no one is going to argue that casual FW players should be able to get as much out of the system as hardcore players. After all, FW would collapse without the vets. We're the ones who fc the fleets, gather strategic and real-time intel, provide the resources that enable FW fleets to engage in more fights, and train the less experienced players who come into FW. Why shouldn't we have a system where these types of players are able to get more rewards than the guy who shows up for 1 or 2 hours sporadically?
|
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:35:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 19:46:15
Originally by: Princess Nexxala
I agree arranged fights are not nearly as fun and proof of faults in the FW system.
While of course I do agree that arranged fights are not quite as realistic, lets face the facts. FW in a sense is an arranged fight and pretty much as close as you can get to what could be considered Arena PVP.
While yes there is still risk involved, it's pretty much just risk of losing your ship & pod. We have no risk of losing our space just our bragging rights.
Lets also be honest in the fact that for the most part we are all here to PVP. While personally I'm not a fan of arranged 1v1's I don't see a lot of issue with arranged gang fights.
First of all it's not like anyone is arranging numbers or fleet comps. FC's typically are just saying to the other FC. We want to fight if you have the numbers let's do it.
It's just agreeing to set up a fight which still leaves all the other variables into play. There is still typical fleet movements trying to out position the other gang or reships to counter what other guys brought. At most they might haggle from time to time about who has to jump into the other.
FW isn't null sec where you waste half the day just getting a fleet together and waste the other half of the day waiting for the other guys to show up or blue ball you.
The arranged fights typically allow the gangs to get some action faster, with fairly equal sides. It's a lot more fun than what we used to see, which was blobs ganking frigs all day and over last month or so it's allowed for a hell of a lot of GF's IMO.
|
Julius Foederatus
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:44:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Julius Foederatus Lets start by giving proper LP for kills.
We went over this a million times in the weeks prior to the current LP-for-Kills was introduced and nothing has changed. Buy BS -> Insure BS -> blow up BS with alt in enemy militia -> repeat ad nauseum.
Already addressed this, but to go into more detail, a tier 1 BS costs roughly 50-55m to buy. Insurance is (I'm not in eve so I can't check on this accurately) roughly 13m. So we simply adjust my original numbers to half of what they were, so you're losing something like 6-7m everytime you blow one up. Not to mention, this kind of thing is easily adjustable for and self-correcting at that, since farmers will fast find themselves losing money once prices drop too far.
Quote: Unless plexes actually become hard as hell to do and/or are severely restricted in spawn number the farming will increase to insane levels. Amarr takes 15 plexes in Auga, leaves to let Minmatar take 15, return to take 15 .. same arrangement in Kourmonen - ad nauseum. Once ISK enters the picture in amounts significant enough to warrant such a change the pew will be limited to arranged bouts (more than it is now).
This is preposterous. Are you honestly going to tell me, that over 100 pvpers within 2 jumps of each other are going to simply arrange it so neither of them ever pvps when there are flashy targets undocked and forced to orbit an objective? Especially when there are tangible rewards and penalties for taking/losing systems? For ****s sake, we come to FW to pvp, not conspire with the people we shoot on a daily basis to make isk. It would require controlling the actions of nearly everyone in militia, which will not happen.
Quote: HELL NO! Have you ever plexed extensively? Personally been involved in 20-30 system flips and I can guarantee you that the work is 100% in the plexing. Paying people for not even participating is folly beyond comprehension and a slap in the face of honest plexers .. by all means reward the plexing and maybe have some little benefit from occupying a system but there is no way any of the old guard would go for a scheme like that.
Bottom line: If something can be exploited you can be damn sure it will be to the extreme. The only way to promote pew over plexes is to regulate their spawning into a handful of systems at a time (ie. the frontline concept). If they spawn willy-nilly as is the case now, people will just run to next open beacon at the first sign of trouble.
First of all, yes I have plexed extensively, I was one of the players involved in crafting the strategy that led to the Gallente reclaiming their first systems when we had none. I've done the plex thing and I know how the 'old guard' thinks. The fact is, the 'old guard' as you put it, wants more people to plex. They want people to take a stake in system occupancy, and they want to have people pvp in plexes so that it doesn't feel like the work it is now.
A frontline is easily created through docking access and the removal thereof. Want to plex 10 jumps from the nearest dockable system? When you get chased out you have nowhere to repair, nowhere to ship up, nowhere to rearm, whereas your enemy has all these things. It would be so hard to offensively plex in areas that far away that it would mean most plexers would only get a few plexes deep before the enemy was on top of them and they were forced to withdraw. I do agree that changing the respawn mechanics to reinforce this behavior would be best, but I don't think that that would need to happen to facilitate it in the first place.
|
Princess Nexxala
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:52:00 -
[103]
Well to me that would be an arranged fight in the same way that a 1v1 is arranged with frigs or what not. FCs in the caldari/gal zone do that from time to time. Just saying "hey we want to pew" isn't arranging a fight IMO. Its when they say bring only frigs, no podding, in this system, etc....**** all that.
Originally by: Mutnin
First of all it's not like anyone is arranging numbers or fleet comps. FC's typically are just saying to the other FC. We want to fight if you have the numbers let's do it.
|
Super Chair
Caldari Hell's Revenge
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:11:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Mutnin
Originally by: Deen Wispa
Someone mentioned about adding in Navy BCs which I'm sure would bring more people into FW. Though, I'd hate to see a Drake Navy issue come out considering the normal Drake is OP as it is.
Well not to totally derail the topic into ships.
I think best option for more Navy ship versions would be to follow the example of the Navy Frigs. Instead of creating say a Navy Issue Drake or Hurricane for example create a new ship instead.
What I'd like to see, would be a new class of Navy Destroyers but as much as I love to fly BC's, I'm not so sure making Navy BC's would be a good idea. As you mentioned Drakes for example are already pretty good as well as most of the others (Canes, Harbs, Myrms ect..).
I think creating a Navy class of BC's might end up with them being a bit too OP, due to the fact BC's are already pretty much the best all around ships in the game.
I suggested navy faction ewar cruisers as well, tbh I dont think theyd be that hard to implement, just as most navy cruisers behave similar to their HAC counterparts the faction ewar cruisers would do the same and mirror the recons.
Navy BCs are a bit tricky ill admit. I would get a nerd-rection to see a navy ferox though.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:22:00 -
[105]
Location: Heydieles Time: After proposed LP for plexing mechanics have been introduced. Gallente Intel Channel:
Val Erian > Joanna Ramirez, Condor, Minor, Heydieles (uncontested) X Gallentius > Hey Val, let her cap the plex, we'll run the unopened major after she's done and make some bank.
Heyd Local: X Gallentius > Hey Joanna, there's three more minors, please run them too!
Fast Forward 2 weeks: X Gallentius > Hey guys I need to make some isk, logging my Caldari alt Yuri Agoze to run the minor in Heyd. 10 minutes later. X Gallentius > OK back, opening the major.
|
Super Chair
Caldari Hell's Revenge
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:29:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Super Chair on 21/06/2011 20:30:05 Was just reading the patch notes and I came across this:
Factional Warfare NPCs now care about defending against their allies enemies.
Perhaps a fix to amarr/minnie alts plexing in caldari/gallente plexes (and vice versa), or a fix to the high standings alt issue, or just complete bull and CCP is just pulling our leg? We will see...
Edit, pasted and got cut off
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:32:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Julius Foederatus Already addressed this..
Problem is the envelope is infinitesimal. LP/ISK ratio ranges from 1k to 3k, so pump the LP-for-Kill high enough to make a difference and you automatically make it exploitable.
Originally by: Julius Foederatus This is preposterous....
Not at all, this is the way it has been for well over a year. The only time there is actual fighting going on is when it is arranged or when two crews of equal size meet (which is pretty rare). This will not change just because you throw money at them, as a blob will still not find anything to shoot other than a gank once in a while and with plexes readily available the inferior force has no reason to dance.
Docking will never be denied in NPC stations, CCP has said as much on numerous occasions. There might be a way to convince them to deny access to services though but haven't heard anything official on that so don't know .. would provide most of what you seek though.
PS: In case you haven't read it yet, allow my to pimp my old thread which contains answers to most of the issues with FW (as they were back then).
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:58:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Super Chair
Factional Warfare NPCs now care about defending against their allies enemies.
lol, 2 years late. Perhaps in another two years NPCs will care about defending against WTS with +5 standings towards their militia.
|
Julius Foederatus
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:13:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Julius Foederatus on 21/06/2011 22:15:52 Maybe it's like that in minnie space, but that's not how it is in our end.
And if you're really worried about alts farming, then fine, we can eliminate any LP rewards for plexes or make them negligible and load all of the LP rewards into system capture. But that's not as guaranteed to get people to plex as direct rewards. It'll just allow freeloaders to come in and bash the bunker and get all the rewards while the real effort goes unrewarded.
Lets be real here, what you guys are suggesting is that 2 sides would have to coordinate on a massive level in order to farm this stuff. They would have to specifically ignore each other in order to let the plexes get far enough down the road to system capture and then you still have to compete for the plexes in the actual contested systems. All it takes is one or two people who want to pew the other side and it falls apart. And that's if you even buy the premise that two factions, who exist to kill each other, who try everything to disrupt the each other, that have built up so much hatred for each other over time that they can't be civil in local, would willingly stand by and let each other make isk in peace.
The whole point of my proposal is that yes you can farm at a low level. But the guys who are going to get the real rewards are the ones who actually go out and pvp and take risks. Hell, if you all are that concerned with low level farmers, lets make it so both sides don't get any LP until the system is either taken or uncontested. That will force people into them if they want their compensation. The fact of the matter is that missions do not encourage pvp, they never will unless you alter them so radically that they're hardly missions anymore. Plexes, for all their faults, at least give both sides an objective that they can fight over that take in a reasonable amount of time.
Edit: Frankly if CCP won't revoke docking rights for some at NPC stations then they're worthless and gutless and FW will never be what it could be. Something like that would solve so many problems with the current warzone and completely alter the strategic outlook of the FW area. Lets hope they grow some balls and change their minds.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 22:58:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 23:00:22
Originally by: Super Chair
I suggested navy faction ewar cruisers as well, tbh I dont think theyd be that hard to implement, just as most navy cruisers behave similar to their HAC counterparts the faction ewar cruisers would do the same and mirror the recons.
Navy BCs are a bit tricky ill admit. I would get a nerd-rection to see a navy ferox though.
The problem with more EW ships, is how do you make them a worth while ship that isn't just a duplicate of ships already in the game?
Using an example of say ECM. We already have Griffen > Kitsune > Black Bird > Rook > Falcon > Scorp. Each does pretty much same job just in a slightly different way & with slightly different options.
Before seeing another Cruiser type added, I'd personally rather see the ship tier system abolished so the current lower tier ships could be made useful & only separated by their roll rather than effectiveness.
Example, take the Breacher, it's kind of an odd ball Minmatar ship that is missile bonused. It almost has potential as a decent frig but it just lacks the ability to give it a decent fit. Not just grid wise but also slot layout.
It's a ship that has it's potential taken away because it has to fit in it's spot of a useless tier system that's only effect on game play is to make a vast majority of ships irrelevant.
|
|
Rigel Vex
|
Posted - 2011.06.22 01:22:00 -
[111]
This thread got Trolled.
|
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.22 01:25:00 -
[112]
Originally by: jackaloped I see you ignored all the questions I asked about how long it takes to find fun pvp under the actual mechanics and instead chose to post your killboard stats.
How many good fights do you get from the time you sign in until the time you sign out? How many hours per good fight?
Anyone can get a bunch of kills. Its not that hard. But finding good fights is a different story.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
Originally by: jackaloped Edited by: jackaloped on 21/06/2011 15:40:31
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.
How many hours go by where you are just warping around looking for fight? What about waiting for a fleet to form to just go roaming in a large gang ganking stragglers? That is not my bag. FW should be exciting stuff. When you log in you should immediately be told where you are needed to fight and there should be literally dozens of fights going on in all the systems all the time.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.
The game mechanics are bad. FW should be involve constant fighting all through the fw regions. Instead its waiting for one blob to form to fight another blob that will then dock reship and chase the next blob. ItÆs really the problem for all of eve. FW should be the solution but ccp ignores it.
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
In short, we in FW are Lazy
Yeah we want to play a computer game without having to trade in a real life like the ôbig boysö in null sec.
I'll be damned if i can find any kills in any board on your char, so obviously this is an alt of your main who I'm sure has a great many kills, so clearly you know of what you speak( not that I've ever seen you around) but I'm in fleets pretty much the whole time I'm online, and I get plenty of action.BTW, I am immediately told where to go when I log on, for the record.Im no great pilot, but im busy enough that i am neglecting other things in game i could be doing besides PvP, but I've got 30 kills last 7 days, nothing great, but keeps me interested.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Tanaka+Sekigahara
How you doing?
-I answered every thing you asked. I'm thinking you are a nutter, or what they call around here a troll. War is Hell- William Tecumseh Sherman |
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.22 01:32:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Julius Foederatus Already addressed this..
Problem is the envelope is infinitesimal. LP/ISK ratio ranges from 1k to 3k, so pump the LP-for-Kill high enough to make a difference and you automatically make it exploitable.
Originally by: Julius Foederatus This is preposterous....
Not at all, this is the way it has been for well over a year. The only time there is actual fighting going on is when it is arranged or when two crews of equal size meet (which is pretty rare). This will not change just because you throw money at them, as a blob will still not find anything to shoot other than a gank once in a while and with plexes readily available the inferior force has no reason to dance.
Docking will never be denied in NPC stations, CCP has said as much on numerous occasions. There might be a way to convince them to deny access to services though but haven't heard anything official on that so don't know .. would provide most of what you seek though.
PS: In case you haven't read it yet, allow my to pimp my old thread which contains answers to most of the issues with FW (as they were back then).
This is utterly ridiculous.Fights happen all the time and not only within the parameters you describe.Fly with an FC that knows how to get a fight and dictate the terms of the engagement. War is Hell- William Tecumseh Sherman |
Assassin126
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.06.22 06:53:00 -
[114]
I see the 2 main suggestions are LP reward for plexing and PVP, plexing is good to reward with LP and not really exploitable, and to stop people exploiting PVP, the LP reward depends on the market value of the kill, so a super capital kill gives lots of LP, a rookie ship could give about 3
The best way is probably to make an increased reward for plexing, because for people like me with 10.00 tribal liberation force standing, there is no point at all in doing a plex any more - except when im in kourm/houla, as there is a reasonable chance of PVP plexing in there. I guess that's what I end up doing when my home system is the Amarr staging system :P Valkyrs pos's FTW
Also something needs to be done about the blob *cough* Nephilim Xeno and some other names come to mind I have just updated my torpedoes with a new windows operating system guidance system, prepare to feel my wrath!! oh... my torpedoes are coming back towards me |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.22 11:03:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara ..Fly with an FC that knows how to get a fight and dictate the terms of the engagement.
So you have a magical FC that is able to conjure up "fair" fights? Holy crap, you should hire him out because that is what all of Eve has been wanting for a long time.
'Dictate the engagement' is FC speak for ganking the crap out of someone, be it by sheer numbers, RR/ECM abuse or overshipping .. any fool can do that. There are fights to be had but the point is they don't automatically appear just because you throw money at people .. not when the same money can be had without fighting.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.22 14:02:00 -
[116]
Andraz is an exceptional FC.
|
Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.22 17:30:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Von Kroll on 22/06/2011 17:31:13 @Hirana, what we're looking for is competitive PvP. I think that's a different metric than "fair". Fair is t-ball leagues where people don't keep score. Competitive is a fight that's "winnable" by either side, depending on the skill and acumen of the FC and his team. Everybody wants to win and get lots of kills, but no one, long-term, will stay interested in clubbing baby seals.
One thing that impacts all of this is how much isk the player pilots have in their respective wallets. If everyone has a fat wallet, they're eager to fight and potentially lose ships, and futhermore, they can sustain losing ships. FW missions give people the ability to create isk locally, without having to run off to high-sec. Personal pilot wealth is extremely important when corps/alliances live in low-sec because the corp/alliance doesn't have the same mechanics available to null-sec alliances to control and exploit the resources available. While there is a considerable amount of wealth available in FW space, its tougher for the FW corps to exploit them. Having personal wealth potential available is very important. To be honest, I could care less what mechanic is used to provide that potential to the individual pilot, as long as we have one. I think its foolish to assume though, that any mechanic that gets implemented, will be one that some non-FW player can't exploit. Null-sec alliances get farmed all the time. I'm sure as Incursions mature, someone will find a way to exploit them as well.
Anyway, I think overall, there's a decent balance right now. There are things that need to be tweaked, no doubt, but otherwise, with respect to the current state of FW, "close enough" right now actually is...
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.22 18:01:00 -
[118]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 22/06/2011 18:11:15 Edited by: X Gallentius on 22/06/2011 18:07:45 lol, here's an idea. Re-frame FW to fit reality of low sec, balance NPCs, etc...
FW is really a proxy war between empires. CONCORD, in its interest of keeping high sec free from war, has brokered a deal. The empires can fight each other in low sec, but are not allowed to fight each other in high sec.
However, the empires do not have the resources to deploy into low sec and therefore they have set up militias to do this for them. This is a proxy war.
(free war dec) Corporations in FW are privateers and are given letters of marque by CONCORD (through the NPC militia alliances) to go shoot kill opposing militia members anywhere in New Eden.
(limits in high sec movement) The letter of marque forbids militias to enter opposing militias high sec, but it is up to the Empire navies to enforce this rule.
(missions) In addition to killing opponents, the militia office also gives out missions deep in enemy space. But paying FW members comes at a price, they have had to reduce patrols in their low sec systems.
(Occupancy War) The populations in FW low sec (perhaps all of low sec (and perhaps 0.0 NPC space if you want to carry it that far), however, are more concerned about protection from NPC pirates than this proxy war. They're going to pledge their allegiance to whoever protects them the most - whether it is a given militia, pirate corp, or non-sov holding alliances (hell why not sov holding alliances). Plexes in FW space change from Empire driven plexes to NPC pirate occupied plexes - Serpentis in Gallente space, Guristas in Caldari space. Instead of timer, the plex is won by whoever kills the most NPC pirates. Otherwise it shows up on overview as always. These plexes can still be used for ship-limited pvp! YOU DO NOT GO GCC INSIDE PLEXES
Anomolies, dens, etc.. also count (inside and outside of FW areas, they do not show up on overview), but you still go GCC if you are not at war (same as always).
The entity that clears out the most plexes over a given 30 day period is called the Occupier. Your e-peen is huge. Station services in these systems are reduced in price for occupying corporation.
This way, low sec and NPC 0.0 occupancy e-peen is opened to all. The ILF, IRED, CVA, and all rp alliances could contribute to the low sec sov game and still maintain their warped rp identities, etc...
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.22 18:16:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Mutnin on 22/06/2011 18:17:24
Originally by: Von Kroll Edited by: Von Kroll on 22/06/2011 17:31:13 @Hirana, what we're looking for is competitive PvP. I think that's a different metric than "fair". Fair is t-ball leagues where people don't keep score. Competitive is a fight that's "winnable" by either side, depending on the skill and acumen of the FC and his team. Everybody wants to win and get lots of kills, but no one, long-term, will stay interested in clubbing baby seals.
One thing that impacts all of this is how much isk the player pilots have in their respective wallets. If everyone has a fat wallet, they're eager to fight and potentially lose ships, and futhermore, they can sustain losing ships. FW missions give people the ability to create isk locally, without having to run off to high-sec. Personal pilot wealth is extremely important when corps/alliances live in low-sec because the corp/alliance doesn't have the same mechanics available to null-sec alliances to control and exploit the resources available. While there is a considerable amount of wealth available in FW space, its tougher for the FW corps to exploit them. Having personal wealth potential available is very important. To be honest, I could care less what mechanic is used to provide that potential to the individual pilot, as long as we have one. I think its foolish to assume though, that any mechanic that gets implemented, will be one that some non-FW player can't exploit. Null-sec alliances get farmed all the time. I'm sure as Incursions mature, someone will find a way to exploit them as well.
Anyway, I think overall, there's a decent balance right now. There are things that need to be tweaked, no doubt, but otherwise, with respect to the current state of FW, "close enough" right now actually is...
For the most part I can agree with this.. When I look at gang fights, I'm typically only interested if the other side can bring a decent fight. It's not much fun to just gank people, hence the reason I've always hated blobs.
On the other hand if the other side is capable of bringing a fight then I have no issue with joining a gang. I also think there are many whom will continue to club baby seals as long as they can because there are a lot of guys you will never see out side of a over powering blob.
Look how most gate camping low sec corps work or even large alliances. Not many of them are looking for decent fights, they are looking to farm KM's or gank the other side. Meaning FW has opportunity to provide what no other part of EVE is able to and that's fairly equal or competitive PVP.
As for the ISK and FW missions I think Von hit on something there. Active players in FW probably PVP on average much more than most null sec players. This means we burn through a lot of ISK and our corps do not have the ISK sources that Null sec alliances have that allow them to offer up ship replacement programs and so on.
TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program. While maybe they exist, it would be extremely rare, meanwhile it's pretty common out in null. This means it's much more important that players have personal ISK source that can keep up with the ship loss demands.
For the most part in FW the only time a player gets help on ship replacements, is from the gangs they are part of and that's typically given in loot from ship kills from that gang. However that's not always the case and more often than not it's the player that is comping the bill.
|
Bad Messenger
draketrain
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 00:17:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program.
When draketrain was in militia we had 100% reimbursement for ship losses that happened in fleet ops. You even got insurance money for yourself so losing ships gave you more isk.
|
|
Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 01:04:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program.
When draketrain was in militia we had 100% reimbursement for ship losses that happened in fleet ops. You even got insurance money for yourself so losing ships gave you more isk.
How did the corp bankroll this?
|
Unfamed II
Caldari NPC Corporation Paisti Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 01:10:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program.
When draketrain was in militia we had 100% reimbursement for ship losses that happened in fleet ops. You even got insurance money for yourself so losing ships gave you more isk.
How did the corp bankroll this?
I helped them a bit. (ಠ_O) -b |
Rail Gun
Caldari The Cathedral of Flesh
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 01:14:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Rail Gun on 23/06/2011 01:14:26
Originally by: Unfamed II
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program.
When draketrain was in militia we had 100% reimbursement for ship losses that happened in fleet ops. You even got insurance money for yourself so losing ships gave you more isk.
How did the corp bankroll this?
I helped them a bit. (ಠ_O)
With my shiny monocle I see what you did there.
|
Deen Wispa
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 01:27:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program.
When draketrain was in militia we had 100% reimbursement for ship losses that happened in fleet ops. You even got insurance money for yourself so losing ships gave you more isk.
Curious to know how you funded the corp wallet? Funding a FW corp wallet is alot tougher than doing it in hisec empire.
|
Rail Gun
Caldari The Cathedral of Flesh
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 02:48:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Deen Wispa
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program.
When draketrain was in militia we had 100% reimbursement for ship losses that happened in fleet ops. You even got insurance money for yourself so losing ships gave you more isk.
Curious to know how you funded the corp wallet? Funding a FW corp wallet is alot tougher than doing it in hisec empire.
Funding FW corp wallet is hard? You do realise that draketrain made titan in FW in few days? Maby you guys are just doing something wrong...
|
Bad Messenger
draketrain
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 02:53:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Rail Gun
Originally by: Deen Wispa
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program.
When draketrain was in militia we had 100% reimbursement for ship losses that happened in fleet ops. You even got insurance money for yourself so losing ships gave you more isk.
Curious to know how you funded the corp wallet? Funding a FW corp wallet is alot tougher than doing it in hisec empire.
Funding FW corp wallet is hard? You do realise that draketrain made titan in FW in few days? Maby you guys are just doing something wrong...
You should note that Deen Vispa is fightning for gallente, so maybe it is not so easy to do isk.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 03:32:00 -
[127]
When FW missions were really OP (you could refuse missions until you got one where you wnated it), many people trained up alts and declined missions until they were spawned in the exact system they wanted (Ladistier). They then podded their alt back to Ladi, opened mission, and then podded back to mission system to pick up another mission.
beelions!
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 08:56:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Mutnin on 23/06/2011 09:03:30
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Mutnin
TBH, the entire time I've played FW, I've never heard of any corp that offered a ship replacement program.
When draketrain was in militia we had 100% reimbursement for ship losses that happened in fleet ops. You even got insurance money for yourself so losing ships gave you more isk.
edit.. derp guess someone already asked.
Originally by: X Gallentius When FW missions were really OP (you could refuse missions until you got one where you wnated it), many people trained up alts and declined missions until they were spawned in the exact system they wanted (Ladistier). They then podded their alt back to Ladi, opened mission, and then podded back to mission system to pick up another mission.
beelions!
Yea but that was long before they made Draketrain. They nerf'd that long before I left Minmatar Militia to go pie and well before I rejoined FW and went Caldari. I joined Caldari with my alt about the time they started Draktrain then joined with my main not long after that.
TBH I should have farmed a hell of a lot more back then. When the BS's were selling for 800-600 mil I used to just do enough to buy my plexes and ships each month. (I hate PVE grinds)
Now I just buy toons fix them up for a bit and resell them..
|
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:31:00 -
[129]
My main account Cearain ran out - and will be renewed when fw is fixed. This is an alt account. I didn't want to reveal that at first for gameplay reasons, but I also don't want to mislead people on the boards so I decided to state this fact.
I do believe the proposal I made regarding fw plexing would lead to 3 -5 good fights an hour in fw. (that assumes you have your ships and ready to go in the front line systems.) Here is the thread you will see allot of good discussion in it:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
You can sustain that sort of fighting in eve if they would give some rewards for plexing. If you fight for minor plexes a well fit t1 frigate will cost about 10-15 mill. A well fit t1 cruiser will cost about 30 mill after insurance.
You shouldn't die in every good fight. And if you are average at plexing then the rewards from plexing *should* cover about 1/2 to 2/3s of the cost of your ship. If you are very good then perhaps the rewards will allow you to break even or perhaps get a small profit. Of course that is not the case now but it *should* be when they fix faction war.
Your comments about how this is not done in eve is somewhat correct. That is a huge failing of the game that CCP refuses to implement mechanics that lead to action when you play eve. The plex mechanic is almost there but it needs some tweaks.
What you say about the logistics of moving in ships would become very important if they changed the game mechanics to lead to more battles. Imo this would make the game better not worse.
Just imagine how ôawesomeö eve would be if you really did lose 5 ships in good fights. That might mean you had 7-15 fights total in 2-3 hours of play!
People so often throw out ideas they like about fw without even thinking what they want to accomplish in the time they play the game. I want lots of exciting fights.
I want CCP to accomplish this: mechanics that reliably supply 3 good, (non-arranged) fights per hour of play! Not arena stuff but fights for occupancy where everyone is genuinely using their best strategy to gain occupancy for their faction and by doing this you naturally end up with allot of small scale quality pvp fights. Before you start saying thatÆs impossible, ask yourself if you think that would be a worthy goal.
The next step is to consider how it could be done. DonÆt just decide itÆs impossible because no where else in eve do you get that. Null sec is designed for large scale fleet fights. Low sec and fw never really had a focus on trying to accomplish this. CCP can do it. But, of course, they havenÆt done it yet. They havenÆt even tried!
Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 19:13:01
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Mekhana Edited by: Mekhana on 21/06/2011 18:44:02 I get plenty of good fights at certain times. Usually within a hour or two from the same window.
Sometimes fights will even be arranged between both sides.
The secret is to know when to be around or simply learn to do something in the spare time.
Arranged fights are proof that the mechanics are failing.
Plus having a good fight every hour or 2 is pretty poor. You should be able to reliably get 3 good fights in an hour, sometimes 5 or 6. Otherwise this is really just a game for people with way too much time on their hands.
I think you have an awful lot of wishful thinking and don't understand reality so well. EVE isn't WOW arena PVP, it's a bit more complicated and risk is involved with fights. Meaning ship losses can only be sustained at a reasonable rate for most players involved.
Tossing away 5 "properly fitted" ships in a day for example is not sustainable for most players wallet, as well as replacement time wise. (ie takes time to move in resupplies to most forward bases)
This isn't a respawn with new ship game.
|
Chatgrus
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 06:43:00 -
[130]
I love to exploit plexes, QCATS is a corp of exploiters and Damar has been right about everything all alonge.
|
|
Zaraxis Uchonela
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:04:00 -
[131]
Quote: Reduce station camping by not allowing the enemy faction to dock up up or by dramatically extending the time it takes for them to switch in and out of switches.
I like this idea :)
|
Draycen Trell
Amarr 1st Praetorianorum Fabri
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:18:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Draycen Trell on 24/06/2011 19:19:00 Just had a idea, how about the ranks for militia pilots give you npc wing-men you can call on when plexing or pvp'ing. Say for your first rank you get a spider drone you can call on when you need him..say once every 24 hours? Then as you rank up you get better wing-men. So at the top of the militia rank tree you can call on a faction cruiser or something (subject to balancing) once a day/week or something. You can only use these in fw low sec plexes and obviously you can not use a cruiser in a minor plex.
(Yes, closest thing to a wow pet :) )
|
Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 13:49:00 -
[133]
I'd still like to know how Draketrain (the Corp) bankrolled a 100% ship replacement program. If it was from running missions, that's more of an individual thing.
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:40:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Von Kroll I'd still like to know how Draketrain (the Corp) bankrolled a 100% ship replacement program. If it was from running missions, that's more of an individual thing.
Taxation baby!
|
Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 18:30:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Taxation baby!
That's just giving them their own isk back then...
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 18:44:00 -
[136]
I think we have a great compromise here: VP = Aurum, not LP. Discus....
|
Tea Ester Elliot
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 19:13:00 -
[137]
Originally by: X Gallentius I think we have a great compromise here: VP = Aurum, not LP. Discus....
Then you wouldn't have to pay cash for 6% implants, upgraded ships, and noble ammo.
In other words, never going to happen.
|
Super Chair
Caldari Hell's Revenge
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 03:46:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Chatgrus I love to exploit plexes, QCATS is a corp of exploiters and Damar has been right about everything all alonge.
Confirming that QCATS are dirty, dirty exploiters (who ride polar bears to work).
|
IbanezLaney
Caldari Dingo took my corp name
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:54:00 -
[139]
I don't get to play a lot these days so the FW missions mean I can make the best of the time I do play due to their high rewards. Sell some items from the LP store and then I am free to lose ships until I have no isk then the process starts again. Missions are a must for me cause I am really good at losing ships.
Even if people do farm the missions - other people need them so they can afford to be in FW. I do like the idea of LP for pvp wins but people would just put alts in opposite militia and farming LP would be way easier.
Best way to fix FW would be to make having control of a system useful.
Having control over a system should mean the gate guns and station don't fire at the navy that now owns it.
Basically - If you own the system, its defenses should never fire at you. This would make plexing an attractive option by making systems worth fighting for.
|
Master Andrew
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:33:00 -
[140]
FW plexing would be far more inclusive and interesting for the regular militia pilots if there was actualy some benifit to capping and flipping systems, atm there is some good pvp to be had, especially in the minor plexes - personally as i have said before - i would like there to be a benifit to capping systems - such as denial of access to station/facilities if your militia doesnt have occupancy (this would hurt the fw mission farmer in the wallet) or random spawns of friendly npc in systems you own, hten there would be a reason to actually plex other than rp'ing reasons
|
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:38:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Super Chair Confirming that QCATS are dirty, dirty exploiters (who ride polar bears to work).
chatgrus on her way to work.
|
Bad Messenger
draketrain
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 13:12:00 -
[142]
1st thing to do to fix FW is change ship restrictions for FW complexes. Change it so that pirate faction ships can enter same plexes than same size t2 ships.
Current situation has nothing to do with new players who take their first steps on pvp. All you can now see in plexes is faction an pirate faction ships because those are counted as t1 ships.
|
Seraphine Keratuus
Royal Order of Security Specialists
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 13:54:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Bad Messenger 1st thing to do to fix FW is change ship restrictions for FW complexes. Change it so that pirate faction ships can enter same plexes than same size t2 ships.
Current situation has nothing to do with new players who take their first steps on pvp. All you can now see in plexes is faction an pirate faction ships because those are counted as t1 ships.
This so much its not even funny anymore.
|
Damar Rocarion
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:10:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Seraphine Keratuus This so much its not even funny anymore.
Fully supported. Would love to have proper cruiser duels in mediums but I know opposition will always bring the biggest gun (= pirate cruiser) so i'll do the same. Nobody wants to lose so power creep is pretty inevitable.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 18:04:00 -
[145]
Support ship restrictions in plexes
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:05:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Mutnin on 28/06/2011 20:06:14 I'd love to Fly Vexors, Ruptures & Rifters again knowing that the other guy will be in something appropriate to fight against, instead of them always being in Cynabals, Drams, Dare Devils or some other faction ship.
Some of the funnest solo PVP I've had in this game, was just jumping in a Vexor and going out to see what I could catch. Problem being people would still just fly the faction stuff and would likely ignore the plexes they couldn't get in. Al but the hard core plexers anyway.
|
jackaloped
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:21:00 -
[147]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Support ship restrictions in plexes
I did support it. Thanks for proposing it.
|
Super Chair
Caldari Hell's Revenge
|
Posted - 2011.06.29 05:43:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 28/06/2011 20:06:14 I'd love to Fly Vexors, Ruptures & Rifters again knowing that the other guy will be in something appropriate to fight against, instead of them always being in Cynabals, Drams, Dare Devils or some other faction ship.
Some of the funnest solo PVP I've had in this game, was just jumping in a Vexor and going out to see what I could catch. Problem being people would still just fly the faction stuff and would likely ignore the plexes they couldn't get in. Al but the hard core plexers anyway.
One reason why there should be incentive to plex. I'm still for my VP for faction dessie, faction ewar cruisers, faction BC for victory points Maybe one of these days i'll get off my rear and type up a proposal...
|
Alain Colcer
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:14:00 -
[149]
Interesting thread, wish i had seen it before...
An overall review and refinement of FW is indeed needed, but i don't believe it needs to be a total change over, let me explain a few points:
1) FW missions: they are content designed for people who are less PvP-inclined than the rest; they are still exposed to PvP with the beacon being visible by everyone, and also by having to travel low-sec systems.
2) Complexes: currently the tiered approach to ship size does give the ability to set up fights of "roughly" the same size and firepower.
3) Bunkers: using bunkers in the same way null-sec outposts are conquered provide a good chance to mount a counter offensive, and also exposes players to a mechanic that happens in null-sec.
4) Specific LP store: items only sold by the militia corporations were a good incentive to make items there either cheaper or unique, and therefore more profitable for those who actually earned such LP.
The above are probably the good aspects, however, FW lacks in the following:
a) Missions are not important at all in the overall "occupancy" mechanic, they are just ISK and LP faucets.
b) Plexing is a time-consuming (read boring), often badly balanced mechanic
c) There is no real benefit to "claim" or reap any reward out of conquering a system after shooting the bunker.
So here is my view on the matter:
FIRST Mission stays as they are, a source of isk, standings and LP, along with the exposure they have in low-sec through visible beacons. However there is a slight change, they DO count, in a miniscule way, to the Victory points needed to capture a system. Say, people run 5 missions in a single it then shows as contested, and could progress down that state until is vulnerable if an obscene amount of missions are performed there in a short timeframe (10k ? a day). This will not change the behavior of mission runners' per-se, but would make "hunting" said runners a side goal.
SECOND Plexes are completely changed, they will continue limiting ship size (with the adjustment of faction frigs/cruisers to the upper sized plex), but will no longer have a time completion mechanic. Instead they will grant LP when completed by an appropriate sized "fleet" just like incursion sites (concord pays isk according to fleet size, in this case it would be LP) by clearing the NPCs there. Given that we have multiple sized plexes (outposts, facilities, installations) the framework can easily be adapted to have sites that require 2-3 frigs and others that require 5-6 frigs, or cruisers or whatever.
THIRD When Bunkers are under attack, they will automatically send a distress message in their appropriate militia channel, alerting pilots and inviting them to muster a defensive fleet. Conquering a Bunker will grant a massive LP boost to all in grid.
That for me would fix quite a bit in FW.
|
Psychotic Sidekick
Spiritus Draconis
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 22:18:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Super Chair
navy faction ewar cruisers
I can see patch day now: everyone and their alt(s) in the Caldari Militia will cash out on the new Blackbird Navy Issue. A BNI blob will form and make its way down to Heydieles.. it will be a nano blob orbiting station at 100k at 2000m/s and jamming everything that undocks with the sole purpose of trolling the Gallente at how much better their navy EWAR cruiser is. The Gallente defense fleet will rally in their Celestis Navy Issues to try to damp out the blackbirds but to no avail.. |
|
Super Chair
Caldari Hell's Revenge
|
Posted - 2011.07.25 06:54:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Psychotic Sidekick
Originally by: Super Chair
navy faction ewar cruisers
I can see patch day now: everyone and their alt(s) in the Caldari Militia will cash out on the new Blackbird Navy Issue. A BNI blob will form and make its way down to Heydieles.. it will be a nano blob orbiting station at 100k at 2000m/s and jamming everything that undocks with the sole purpose of trolling the Gallente at how much better their navy EWAR cruiser is. The Gallente defense fleet will rally in their Celestis Navy Issues to try to damp out the blackbirds but to no avail..
Cerbs, or any sniper with a range over 100km > Caldari Ewar.
In other news I was looking at the thread about CCP missing the FW roundtable and the Devs answer your everyone question thread, no new updates within the past month or two. It's all been Soon(tm) stuff.
|
Super Chair
Caldari Hell's Revenge
|
Posted - 2011.07.25 07:39:00 -
[152]
Ok, so I made a thread in the assembly hall http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1556497 for the navy ships for VP. I would like the discussion to be limited to possibly what those rewards should be and how it can be implemented to reward those directly involved in FW rather than just farmers. Occupancy changes, ship balances (omg BNI blob > Celestis Navy Issue blob), and other crap should be left out of the discussion (we all know hybrids (rails especially) need some love) as well as other balance issues.
|
Johnny Punisher
Wolfsbrigade
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 12:47:00 -
[153]
Many really good points here. Too bad many of them would demand a lot of work from CCP...
But at least they should make that "pirate faction ship to t2 when entering plex" -fix. It wouldn't change anything TOO much, but would at least make small plexes better for small-scale pvp.
Also: Don't take missions away. Like someone already mentioned, they teach newer players the enemy lowsec/who lives there, gives pvp players isk to lose expensive ships, gives abilitity to report intel while you move from mission to mission, teaches how to fly a bomber etc. Yes the missions are exploitable, but what system in eve isn't ;)
Even with it's flaws, I've enjoyed FW alot more than any other aspect of eve I've tried. Just few small fixes would make it even better ;)
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |