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meowcat
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Posted - 2005.02.19 03:39:00 -
[1]
Moved from General Discussions - Lomithrandra
EW is the new "Incresed Ship HP" ... not because it's a bad idea, but because the new system has the consequence of increasing the length of time required to resolve a combat encounter.
-> 1-on-1's where both parties are using 1 or 2 multispecs will (empirically) last more than twice as long as identical encounters where neither party is using any EW. Unlike the ship HP increase, you aren't simply slugging it out longer, you are frantically trying to relock, load FoF's, cheering on your drones or trying to run away.
-> 1-on-1's where one party has a gank setup and the other has a couple of multispecs will now favour the jammer (Dominix with 3* multispecs can pwn raven/geddon, for example)
Lots of people aren't going to like the new Jamming, especially the fact that you can break a BS lock with a single multispec (it's supposed to be unlikely but it seems to happen quite a lot). The probability is low, but because combat lasts longer, it 'seems' to happen more often.
However, the more i play with it, the more i begin to think this is actually how the game should have been all along.
-> Support cruisers will come into their own - your gankageddons are going to need them
Beware CCP: with a few small exceptions, most of the ppl on the test server aren't interested in testing the EW. I've had a number of 1-on-1's where my opponent has simply warped off making noises of disgust the minute i turn on a couple of jammers.
All hell is going to break lose when/if you roll this out on TQ.
some suggestions:
-> Webbifiers. make 2 different kinds - one short range with high speed reduction, the other a longer range variant with a lower speed reduction. The latter should NOT be sufficient to really catch a frigate/ceptor unless 2 modules are applied. The short range one should. Do this and you will reduce the blood pressure of a lot of frigate pilots.
-> Scramblers. People aren't going to like it when they've had someone scrambled for 2 minutes, got them into structure and then they suddenly warp away. The only improvement i can come up with is to increase the duration on these modules so that a successful scram holds the target long enough for a skilled team to get a kill. Decrease the probability if you have to.
-> Advice for players: Get out of the mindset that EVE combat is a process of locking a target and shooting at it, while watching little red bars racing each other, and biting your fingernails. If this stuff gets implemented, it's going to be alot more involved than that....
-> You're going to have ALOT more time to make strategic combat decisions actually during the fight itself. You're going to be able to swap ammo, launch drones, and switch modules onto different targets. These decisions will be the thing that determines whether you die, or the other guy does. NOT who has the largest member. (I do btw).
Conclusion: Skeptical to start with. Now convinced it's a bloody good idea.
note 1: I've spent quite a few hours on the test server in the last couple of days.
note 2: no idea how this is going to effect blob fleet combat... probably not much to be honest, but i hate blob wars so i couldn't give a toss :-)
note 3: target painters in fight club hanger pls... now? :-)
edit: spelling, title was truncated
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
w0rmy
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Posted - 2005.02.19 04:16:00 -
[2]
Nice info, but I do have to disagree with this point...
 Originally by: meowcat
NOT who has the largest member. (I do btw).
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2005.02.19 04:39:00 -
[3]
Quote:
-> Scramblers. People aren't going to like it when they've had someone scrambled for 2 minutes, got them into structure and then they suddenly warp away. The only improvement i can come up with is to increase the duration on these modules so that a successful scram holds the target long enough for a skilled team to get a kill. Decrease the probability if you have to.
Another alternate option worth considering is that for every x amount of seconds you have the target scrambled, the chance of that scrambling continues to go up by x%. Should mean that once you have someone scrambled, chances are they will stay scrambled, but there is still the chance they could get a 'lucky' escape.
Oh, and it's just an Idea, so don't flame me for it, just someting to discuss I guess.
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"Remember people: Omber is the biggest evil ever created, DO NOT let it get to you!"
Waagaa Ktlehr, BDCI
I have a blog
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.02.19 05:32:00 -
[4]
Originally by: meowcat
you can break a BS lock with a single multispec
Is the 'strenght' concept gone ?
Does that mean that with a strength 4 jamer you can jam a ship with 16 gravimetric as the scorpion ?
If yes, does it mean that with 4 multispecs (which jam a Scorpion without ECCM atm) you have 4 tries at jaming the target (4 times unlikely is still not likely) instead of adding up the strenght of your jamers ?
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Nomeshta
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Posted - 2005.02.19 08:30:00 -
[5]
EW is now turning battles into a struggle to LOCK not a struggle to inflict DAMAGE. This is even worse when you have frigates who, already taking a stupid amount of time to lock anyway, are seemingly able to very regularly and very easily jam a BS when the frigate only has 1 multispec equipped.
Sorry, TomB, but it is time to make EW size-specific.
Frigates should need to use combined numbers to sensor/propulsion jam a BS because it is just silly that a frigates small sensor/propulsion strength can interfere with a battleships massive sesnor/propulsion strength.
Basically, it should take 4 frigate-sized EW modules to even have a chance to interfere/interrupt a BS propulsion/sensors and 2 to interrupt a cruisers.
You either have to mess with the multispecs some more or make EQ size-specific. The current situation is just an awful mess where chance seems to turn fights into some sort of frustrating thumb-wrestling contest.
- Caution: Ninja Fingers
WTB: Implants
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Amthrianius
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Posted - 2005.02.19 09:04:00 -
[6]
in big fleet combat lag is bad enough let alone trying to lock a target 500000 times
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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.02.19 09:27:00 -
[7]
Nomeshta: I somewhat agree on the size relevance.. but 4 persons is a little extreme. 2 seems right for battleships or maybe 3 as a high end. But only 1 for cruisers. We do have to temporize with the fact that the most valuable asset on the field is still supposed to be a human being. I can understand >4 maybe for newer, larger classes of vessels. I don't think it is likely that CCP intends to make the battleship a rarer commodity any time in the near future.
Warp scramming needs to be well within the domain of the frig role, but since battleships theoretically aren't supposed to be able to do or take much from frigs directly, I kind of lean towards the idea of making sensor impairment a little more difficult at least solo. Fittings adjustment is one way, though unpopular. Widening the gulf of stats between classes of ships is another one. It certainly makes the idea of specialist techII EW frigs more viable or necessary if we transfer the jamming burden as a primary role of cruisers. TechII Griffin as a second wave tackler anyone? There's dozens of ways CCP could go about honing the EW battlefield and I trust that they know what they're doing.
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Nomeshta
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Posted - 2005.02.19 09:34:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Nomeshta on 19/02/2005 09:34:57
You know how TomB loves Amarr?
It's no surprise that he has somehow managed to make EW take less mid-slots to be effective.
- Caution: Ninja Fingers
WTB: Implants
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meowcat
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Posted - 2005.02.19 10:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Amthrianius
in big fleet combat lag is bad enough let alone trying to lock a target 500000 times
very good point.
Originally by: Sorja
Is the 'strenght' concept gone ?
Does that mean that with a strength 4 jamer you can jam a ship with 16 gravimetric as the scorpion ?
If yes, does it mean that with 4 multispecs (which jam a Scorpion without ECCM atm) you have 4 tries at jaming the target (4 times unlikely is still not likely) instead of adding up the strenght of your jamers ?
that's basically how it works.
the probability of a successful jam with 4 multispecs is pretty high though. I've never lost a 1-on-1 on SiSi where i've got 3 multispecs, and the other guy has none. lots of people are going to cry 'nerf'
3 multispecs > 7 megapulse
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
HatePeace LoveWar
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Posted - 2005.02.19 10:24:00 -
[10]
At the end of the day, it makes combat a little more varied and exciting. Something this game needs.
Former Member of Omega Corp |
Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.19 10:35:00 -
[11]
NOTE: look how many skillpoints you got in electronik on SISI
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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meowcat
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Posted - 2005.02.19 11:10:00 -
[12]
Edited by: meowcat on 19/02/2005 11:10:35
Dev Question:
Does the Jamming probability calculate on just the highest sensor strength of the ship, or does a successful calculation have to occur on all 4 in order to lose lock?
It's hard to test this as racial jammers still have non-racial jamming strength, so you cant isolate a particular type. Howvever, it looks like the calc is performed only on the ship's highest strength:
against a multispec:
-> Boost Grav 22 to Grav 32 -> incidence of lock-breaking drops
-> Leave Grav at 22, boost RADAR from 6 to 16 -> no noticeable effect
if the calc is done only on the highest strength sensor type.... wtf is the point of multispec ECCM?
as i said, it's hard to test so clarification would be nice.
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.02.19 11:15:00 -
[13]
my suggestion is CCP cuts it lose on the TO server then starts a specific thread on feedback and seriously takes player feedback and make necessary additions, changes, rebalancing as necessary according to player feedback from the feedback you have given us it sounds more involved and startegic. How ill this affect low level rats - will they have warp scramblers ?
Or is this aimed more at PvP ?
ANy extra changes can only be a good thing long term
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Aneu Angellus
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Posted - 2005.02.19 11:27:00 -
[14]
I am really excited about this one.
My alt account is allready preparing for the new EW skills, he will be pure EW.
I dont like the multispec changes, but hey, its going to be interesting. Gankageddons are going to be a thing of the past when these changes come into effect. Battle skills are going to have to come into effect, and concidering IMP have one of the best EW units in the game (R-K) its gona be a blast for us. 
________________
Aneu Angellus
Vengeance Of The Fallen - WolfPack Military Captain
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ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.02.19 11:30:00 -
[15]
group battles should now include jammers and basic overloaded gun ships as well. Ie with time to battle putting in some very heavily armed ships might be interesting
It will also encourage more use of the gang feature for ratting as well as travel in low spec system - ive quite often got a group of 3 or 4 relateive newbies in our frigates and cruisers to go ratting in more dangerous systems - you get more loot after battle and protection allows you to take on some of the harder groups in 0.4 space etc
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Nomeshta
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Posted - 2005.02.19 11:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
I am really excited about this one.
My alt account is allready preparing for the new EW skills, he will be pure EW.
I dont like the multispec changes, but hey, its going to be interesting. Gankageddons are going to be a thing of the past when these changes come into effect. Battle skills are going to have to come into effect, and concidering IMP have one of the best EW units in the game (R-K) its gona be a blast for us.
Best EW units? It's hardly difficult is it.
- Caution: Ninja Fingers
WTB: Implants
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.02.19 12:05:00 -
[17]
Wouldn't this post be better in ships and modules?
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Drakxter
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Posted - 2005.02.19 12:05:00 -
[18]
Hmmm, based on what I see in your post Meowcat, that sounds like how eve should have been.. Not insta ganks.. But "long" fights, where tactic is needed, and the right combo of ships.
Go for it CCP.. This change sounds like its gonna be great!
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Most tired of thing atm:
- Mods on the forum saying: "Please use the bug report page to submit bugs, the forum is not the place to post them." and then closing a topic. |
ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.02.19 12:05:00 -
[19]
im sure the dev team will monitor the progress once its out there in the wild and then the next big update might include additional changes, additions of new technologies, ships changes to ingame combat etc if to many problems occour.
Good to see them pushing the envelope so to speak
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meowcat
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Posted - 2005.02.19 12:07:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Discorporation
Wouldn't this post be better in ships and modules?
yes.
pls move it mr ISD.
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Aneu Angellus
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Posted - 2005.02.19 13:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nomeshta
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
I am really excited about this one.
My alt account is allready preparing for the new EW skills, he will be pure EW.
I dont like the multispec changes, but hey, its going to be interesting. Gankageddons are going to be a thing of the past when these changes come into effect. Battle skills are going to have to come into effect, and concidering IMP have one of the best EW units in the game (R-K) its gona be a blast for us.
Best EW units? It's hardly difficult is it.
You obviously havent been in large fleet engagements.
________________
Aneu Angellus
Vengeance Of The Fallen - WolfPack Military Captain
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Nekhad Jormuzzar
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Posted - 2005.02.19 14:58:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Nekhad Jormuzzar on 19/02/2005 14:59:05
Meow, what are your thoughts on blaster ships?
Oveur mentioned he saw gallente as a race that would benefit from this changes, but I can only see two ships that will massively enjoy the change, the Dominix and Ishtar, both based around drone damage, with good tanking and enough medslots.
Blaster ships will now be subjected to lesser tracking (weaker web strength), a harder time moving into position (much longer web range) and they lack available medslots to begin with.
Have you done any testing with Thorax or Megathron?
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meowcat
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Posted - 2005.02.19 15:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Nekhad Jormuzzar
Edited by: Nekhad Jormuzzar on 19/02/2005 14:59:05
Meow, what are your thoughts on blaster ships?
Oveur mentioned he saw gallente as a race that would benefit from this changes, but I can only see two ships that will massively enjoy the change, the Dominix and Ishtar, both based around drone damage, with good tanking and enough medslots.
Blaster ships will now be subjected to lesser tracking (weaker web strength), a harder time moving into position (much longer web range) and they lack available medslots to begin with.
Have you done any testing with Thorax or Megathron?
Gallente gain generally as they have the second highest sensor strength (after caldari) so there's less need to fit backup arrays. I'm pretty sure that's what he was on about.
Dominix really comes into it's own - esp if you focus on EW, lowslot tanking with drones as main offense. The mega in blaster form will suffer from the fact that a blaster boat is short on available midlsots anyway. The best you can do is lose some lowslot damage mods or tanking and fit a few backups. Rax is much the same.
I had my second account on SiSi earlier; i set him to orbit at 20km, and stuck a web on him. He went round about 3 times before it actually worked... at 16km it does kick in. I'm in two minds about this atm. As i suggested earlier, i think there should be 2 different webbifiers:
-> Long range, 10km optimal + 10 falloff + skills : speed reduction <50%
-> Short range, 5km optimal + 5km falloff + skills : speed reduction >75%
Its ok with a megathron, providing you're at full speed when the web hits - in which case you're just about in range by the time you've slowed. With the rax you're f**ked. The above suggestion is what is needed. For inties is doesn't matter - they can do fly by's while webbed and still be going 1200m/s + ... you need 2 of the new webs to halt one properly.
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Shirei
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Posted - 2005.02.19 15:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: meowcat
-> 1-on-1's where one party has a gank setup and the other has a couple of multispecs will now favour the jammer (Dominix with 3* multispecs can pwn raven/geddon, for example)
Are you sure this won't mean that gank set-ups will just end up stacking their mid slots with sensor boosters, so they can instantly re-lock after the multi duration has expired?
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meowcat
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Posted - 2005.02.19 15:41:00 -
[25]
Edited by: meowcat on 19/02/2005 15:47:29
Originally by: Shirei
Originally by: meowcat
-> 1-on-1's where one party has a gank setup and the other has a couple of multispecs will now favour the jammer (Dominix with 3* multispecs can pwn raven/geddon, for example)
Are you sure this won't mean that gank set-ups will just end up stacking their mid slots with sensor boosters, so they can instantly re-lock after the multi duration has expired?
that's certainly one tactic... but you'd still have 50% less shooting time - you might be better off losing damage mods and using some backup arrays in the lowslots.
DoT now needs to be calculated as "probable DoT" over the course of a minute, allowing for periods where you have no lock, rather than just raw damage per second.
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Nomeshta
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Posted - 2005.02.19 15:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
Originally by: Nomeshta
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
I am really excited about this one.
My alt account is allready preparing for the new EW skills, he will be pure EW.
I dont like the multispec changes, but hey, its going to be interesting. Gankageddons are going to be a thing of the past when these changes come into effect. Battle skills are going to have to come into effect, and concidering IMP have one of the best EW units in the game (R-K) its gona be a blast for us.
Best EW units? It's hardly difficult is it.
You obviously havent been in large fleet engagements.
Same could be said for you, Mr. Best Fleet Commander who nobody has seen.
- Caution: Ninja Fingers
WTB: Implants
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Grut
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Posted - 2005.02.19 15:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: meowcat
3 multispecs > 7 megapulse
You can fit 7 megapulse 3 multis and 8 dmg mods  now you can do extreme damage with ew ... unlike a scorp now
Mostly harmless |
meowcat
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Posted - 2005.02.19 16:02:00 -
[28]
Edited by: meowcat on 19/02/2005 16:04:29
Originally by: Grut
Originally by: meowcat
3 multispecs > 7 megapulse
You can fit 7 megapulse 3 multis and 8 dmg mods now you can do extreme damage with ew ... unlike a scorp now
you can... but you wont last long when you get jammed yourself, especially with your crappy amarr sensor strength and lack of F0Fs / inadequate dronage
the whole thing certainly upsets the apple-cart of current fitting convention
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.02.19 16:05:00 -
[29]
Instead of making it a pure lock/relock war, how about most of the time the EW just renders the active locks useless for a while, so that you don't have to relock? And if another module successfully jams when the locks are already out of order, then they are broken?
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Arimas Talasko
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Posted - 2005.02.19 17:20:00 -
[30]
Nomeshta, what's your problem? Never graduated from the Science and Trade Institute...
And didn't you know that Gallente are *supposed* to be EW "masters" with Caldari as ECCM "masters?" IIRC the whole midslot = EW win thing that exists now and will hopefully be remedied with the new system wasn't exactly the original plan, anyway.
Supremacy Keepin it Real |
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