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An overdue apology and request for parley

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 19 post(s)
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 01:02:00 - [1] Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 01:03:05 EDIT: Holy crap, 9 pages in the time it took me to type this! Originally by: CCP Pann -post snipped due to forum character limits- Like I said, I wonÆt be able to answer all of your questions tonight, but I promise weÆll start getting some info out tomorrow. As I see it, the chief complaint is regarding the high cost of goods in the Noble Market. Second, many people are unhappy about the CaptainÆs Quarters. Third, there are some performance issues with Incarna. I would appreciate it if you would confirm my observations or tell me what IÆm missing, but I do ask that you do it in a productive way. I will remove posts without prejudice if they are counterproductive to the conversation I hope to have with you. I can only speak for myself, I'm sure you'll have hundreds of EVE players posting here soon enough to get as much of a consensus as is possible though. That being said. My chief complaint, and many other people's, with the Captain Quarters is the mandatory nature. Can you confirm that the current functionality of disabling the station environment is only temporary? Will every EVE player ultimately be forced to use the WiS or will they be getting a faster, simpler, more convenient hanger as we used to? A lot of the time we're only docking to offload or load up on cargore-load ammo/grab a mission/some other minor task that really doesn't - from an RP or an efficiency perspective - make sense to get out of our pods for. Microtransactions. It's a lot more complicated than just pricing. We're also highly concerned with the "nickel and diming" of what should be standard features. EVE is not a "free to play" MMO. In f2p models, it's understandable that functionality gets reduced and then only provided on a paid-for basis. However, ideas such as restricting players to a maximum of 50 fittings and then down the line allowing an "upgrade" paid for with cash (plex/WTFever) simply does not belong in a subscription-based MMO. Furthermore there's the nature of EVE's economy - making ships, modules, weapons, or ammunition available from a cash shop could substantially impact the industry side of the game. Buying a custom paint job for a ship or a special weapon skin or similar vanity stuff would be cool, but surely CCP can understand that every actual item sold in in the cash shop is an item that isn't being sold by a manufacturer. On top of the more obvious concerns with Incarna content itself, there's also a huge amount of underlying distrust towards the company as a whole. The fact that the threads about the now-infamous .pdf leak were active for well over 24 hours without a single reply does indeed speak volumes. Even now, although it's been implied that it's a legit document, no-one from CCP has actually come out and outright said yea or nay on it's authenticity. And then there's just how committed CCP are to the actual Internet Spaceships. Yes yes, holistic approach, EVE as a universe, integration with DUST, we all know the spiel. Other than the bugfixes and tweaks that a few Devs are managing to sneak in, are there actual plans for some much-needed ship/weapons balancing passes? Are CCP actually working on EVE the game or is the whole company now focused on DUST and WiS-as-a-beta-for-WoD? What is actually being done? Huge detailed plans aren't needed, but some reassurance that Internet Spaceships are still a priority would be nice. Communication, as you rightly say, is something that used to happen a lot between EVE devs and players. And just one more thing: The forum moderation, when it finally kicked in, was also a little odd. Removing personal attacks and potentially offensive images is understandable, but entirely harmless threads that were a source of light-hearted relief such as the simply awesome "doors" thread was just absurd. Anyway, I've run out of characters and I'm sure there are more points that others far more eloquent and insightful can bring to the table.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 01:13:00 - [2] Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 01:14:45 Originally by: Lirael Dyrim Also, using some ancient PR dev is not the way to go. Sure, you think you're going to get flamed and you want to use her as a meatshield. Grow some balls, where is is Hilmar? Where is Soundwave? Zinfindel? Like she said she's just the mouth piece. We want it from the TOP, not some dev you fished out from the bottom of the barrel. +1 In a addition to my post, this was something I ran out of characters to type about. With all due respect Pam, you're a PR person. It's not the PR department that people are ***ed off at. It's the management and the devs themselves. Where's the accountability? The taking ownership of their words and deeds? I wasn't one of the posters calling for Soundwave's job (or head!), but I was one of many that sent him an in-game private contract for a Damage Control II - and we want him* to put them to use personally, not hiding behind your skirts as it were. The accused don't just have a right to speak for themselves, but a responsibiity to do so.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 01:59:00 - [3] Although I'm not a fan of having multiple people repeat posting over and over and making threads 4 times larger than they need to be, it does appear to be "the done thing" on the ever forums so: Originally by: Boardwalker CCP Soundwave, Kristoffer Touborg. This is your defining moment. Please step forward and face the community that you have splintered.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 02:15:00 - [4] Originally by: CCP Manifest Originally by: Takishu Damn, they bring us back the Ancients. Quote: She's not THAT old. We don't want your ****ing jokes. Either answer the points, or stop posting altogether. Your trolling your own bloody forums and directly contributing to the PR headache..
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 02:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Jerry Pepridge Make a customer satisfaction survey on the splash page. Must be completed before entering game. (thus 100% of opinions are drawn) Ask questions regarding incarna Take the results into consideration when patch days comes That would actually be a good idea, as one-off after every major release.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 02:45:00 - [6] Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 02:46:09 Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 02:45:35 Originally by: CCP Pann Like I said, I wonÆt be able to answer all of your questions tonight I'm currently up to page 31 of this thread and posts are being made faster than I can read them, thus far dozens of serious issues have been raised with not one single quantative response other than "yes, the newsletter was legit" - the rest is just Manifest contradicting himself and cracking ill-advised jokes. What is the purpose of you even posting this, other than creating yet another threadnaught? Never mind answering "all", how about answering just a few? Where are the Internet Spaceships? Is CQ/WiS going to be mandatory? What is the future of the MEGAtransaction model - is it going to be taking business in the form of ships, weapons, modules, ammunition, etc, away from in-game manufacturers or not? Why are we paying for Internet Spaceships and receiving a buggy, resource-hogging, WoD Alpha test? These are just a few of the dozens of questions brought up, and not a one has been answered.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 03:38:00 - [7] Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 03:39:00 Originally by: CCP Manifest Still reading. Progress? I am at post 325. On the one hand, I understand you must have lots to do and sympathise. On the other hand.....that's less than 1/4 of the postcount and it ain't slowing down any. At this rate you'll be reading this post sometime on Sunday. I'm beginning to think opening up a blatant threadnaught bait such as this really should have waited until they could dedicate someone to read them rather more swiftly.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 03:43:00 - [8] Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 03:46:19 Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 03:45:29 Originally by: Th0rG0d Originally by: Kallynda Nai Mother****ing unbelievable I lol'd! Even knowing this memeclip so well, I still laughed so hard at the subtitles I had a coughing fit.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 16:46:00 - [9] When I went to bed, this thread had 60-odd pages and a mere half-dozens posts by CCP, most of them worthless content wise. Now I've come back to check again, and it's up to 150-odd pages, but still only the same half-dozen posts. WTF CCP? Three days of Threadnaughts, of bitter reactions, of people unsubscribing. And no quantative response to a single one of the dozens of valid points raised in them. Are you actually trying to **** of your most loyal fans and kill the game at this point?
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 17:13:00 - [10]

diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 17:23:00 - [11] Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 17:25:48 Originally by: ACY GTMI 40,000+ pilots logged in. No wonder they think they can get away with it. ~5000 "mains" ~15000 "alts" ~20000 bots. Even if a few hundred people stop playing, the ludicrous numbers of bots in this game will always make it look "busy". CCPs "current user numbers" will only take a significant nosedive if enough people stop playing that the botters don't bother logging in.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 17:36:00 - [12] Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 17:35:59 Originally by: Riflin' Betty Liang Nuren is now also banned. I can only assume Akita T is next. We're out of the fight capsuleers, stay strong. I salute you all o7 -Helicity
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 21:27:00 - [13] Edited by: diaufop on 24/06/2011 21:30:22 Well at least the blog answers one of the questions. PAY-TO-WIN WILL BE COMING SOON TO EVE. The simple fact that Zulu deliberately ignored it is as good as a confirmation. I hope the few who continuing playing this game will enjoy their $1000 cash-shop only super-ships and their gold ammunition. Oh, and just for fallout:
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.24 22:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Miilla CCP's vision of the sandbox -> Customers view of CCP management -> Pretty much sums it up, although could do with a Pony for fallout.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.25 02:29:00 - [15] Originally by: leth ghost Linkage So that would be a huge "thank you very **ing much" t those dip**s that bought monocles just to troll the forums.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.25 03:36:00 - [16] I've unsubbed. Given that e-mail, and the sudden waking-up of the forum moderators, there remains only one thing to say:
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 03:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Indy Rider http://bit.ly/mS9aYj Irony? Amazing
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 06:58:00 - [18] Edited by: diaufop on 26/06/2011 06:58:28 This thread's pony quota not being met!
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 08:02:00 - [19] Someone who actually watches that pony show gave me a better picture.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 08:28:00 - [20] Edited by: diaufop on 26/06/2011 08:29:09 Originally by: Flesh Slurper Originally by: Pherick Sjang At least now we know where CCP Pann's been... Giving lectures about community management, oddly. Its funny how they are giving a talk about community management at the summit. If this is the proper way to handle a game community then god help us. Dunno how you missed it, but Hilmar's a headline speaker at Game Horizon in just 2 days time too. Source Of course, they have to let him speak - since CCP are SPONSORING THE EVENT! More excellent use of the CCP budget.

diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 08:32:00 - [21] Edited by: diaufop on 26/06/2011 08:36:50 Originally by: DarkTemplarCrimsonWolf Time to heckle Hilmar off the stage, just need 10-20 people and synchronized heckles (1 gets thrown out the other starts), keep it up for long enough and Hilmar won't be able to say a damn thing. I don't live too far from where it's being held actually, but I'm not paying ú402 (that's 9.5 monocles ) plus travel costs to heckle him, fun as it would be Edited to add the cost in monocles- you guys quoted me before I could do that calculation!
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 08:50:00 - [22] Edited by: diaufop on 26/06/2011 08:50:33 Originally by: Londo Cebb Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha It's all in the metrics! How many metres are in a foot? 0.305
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 08:58:00 - [23] Stolen from the naughty forum:
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 09:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Hormus Imagine a few thousand angry experienced players transfering to an unsuspecting MMORPG. I pity it... Sufficient EVE players joined up with Perpetuum yesterday that we crashed their log-in server. The Devs in that game seemed very pleased to have us (and our money, naturally).
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 09:23:00 - [25] Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items? Hadn't been posted for a while.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 09:25:00 - [26] Originally by: Manos Heimenbarger Originally by: Algathas 10000? Epic post deserves a pony. Please edit. +1 Preferably this one:
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 09:49:00 - [27] Originally by: Londo Cebb I hope to see this thread at a million views when I wake up. Night all 07 I too am off to bed: To those of you keeping this thread alive, please remember to stay on target. Message now available in both BIG YELLOW TEXT and Pony format, keep it alive on every page: Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 19:20:00 - [28] Edited by: diaufop on 26/06/2011 19:21:16 "There are no plans". I'd just like to take a moment to say this to all eve customers. "There are no plans". This was exactly what Turbine used to deny LoTRO going f2p+cash shop less than 2 weeks before the official announcement. "There are no plans" is the single most common weasel-word phrase used to mean "we're doing it, but not ready to go public". "there are no plans", from Zulu means precisely **-all. This whole blog is just another stalling tactic. There is absolutely nothing that CCP can discuss with the CSM in Iceland in a week's time that they couldn't discuss with them via skype over the last few days. CCP are hoping that by announcing they refuse to discuss the issues until then that everyone will calm down and carry on buying monocles and ignore the veritable piles of ** CCP have heaped upon them in the past few days. And then post some weasel-worded document at the end of the week that amounts to "we're carrying on anyway, but this time we got the CSM drunk enough to agree!".
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 21:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Morgan Polaris Edited by: Morgan Polaris on 26/06/2011 20:44:11 According to the tally, CCP is down $806,760 on annual subscription fees. $975,050 if half of those cancelled subscribers paid with euro's. But Hilmar was expecting that, of course.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 22:23:00 - [30] Edited by: diaufop on 26/06/2011 22:24:05 Edited by: diaufop on 26/06/2011 22:23:34 Originally by: Angeliq Edited by: Angeliq on 26/06/2011 21:37:58 Originally by: Hot Brunette Originally by: Angeliq Originally by: Julian Kirov Here's a presentation from the creators of BF:Heroes that explains why Hilmar gives no fcks about the forums. http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win This is a very interesting presentation. Everyone should... MUST watch it! This presentation will tell you why EVE Online WILL have a Cash Shop WITH GAME CHANGING ITEMS beyond vanity ones!! It shows that the business model works and why it will work in EVE too. I'd be interested in seeing the survey if they added the option of "I would quit the game if advantage-giving items were induced" Sadly, it wasnt an available option. If they do introduce such types of items in eve, there's a possibility that the game doesnt die, but the player base changes...old players leave, new (and different) players come in. But let's hope that doesnt happen. They don't really care about player age, they only care about money. That hits the nail on the head. 2 most important differences between that game and EVE Firstly, it's free-to-play, CCP want to double-dip with both a subscription and pay-to-win. Secondly, as Ben stressed in that presentation, a large part of their income came from SMS sales from teenagers who aren't even old enough to have a credit card. Pay-to-win works very well for free-to-play games. Especially those with 2 million+ teenage users who can rely on mummy and daddy paying their mobile phone bills. I can't imagine how CCP are crazy enough to think they'll have such a massive success with pay-to-win with EVE, having such a vastly different customer base.

diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.26 23:14:00 - [31]
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 08:04:00 - [32] Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 08:05:31
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 09:13:00 - [33] Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 09:16:18 Originally by: Zeg Quul Slowly crawling towards 400 . Good morning Eve community Also: The fact that a blatantly NSFW thread has lasted over 4 1/2 hours and 5 pages would indicate that the mods have completely given up on the forums. Well, either that or they're ALL too busy posting pro-CCP threads with their alts.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 11:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Wakeland PENNY ARCADE CHIMES IN - NSFW That's pretty damn hilarious.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Zero GodOfDestruction Edit: Could someone be so kind as to repost the initial big yellow question, for the sake of those who just joined us in the thread and have a TL:DNR mentality? Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:49:00 - [36] Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 21:50:23 Originally by: Benri Konpaku And this is how it will be for the next few months with more and more people going puff unless CCP regains some sense and actually listens to the community that supported EVE all these years. Sadly, what will more likely happen is that CCP will simply outright lie to the customer base and then continue whatever their plan is anyway. By this point, it's been made perfectly clear that listening to their customer base is the last thing on CCP's mind. The only thing that changed the "very predictable feedback...ignore the noise...stay the course" train of thought was the mass unsubscribing and the widespread gaming media reporting of rioting players. Once they've managed to stop the haemorrhaging subscriptions, it'll be back to "very predictable feedback...ignore the noise...stay the course" once again.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Capsuleer Newton So, this is the best option they have? Alienate a lot of players into unsubscribing? hehehe, still not a very good option. if you ask me, i would have opted to get rid of the discount i got from having a 6-month sub plan than MT. i'd be happy to pay $15/month, not $72/6months even if i have the 6 month plan, but then, meeh, its unsubbed now. It should be noted, CCP didn't plan on alienating players. Someone within the company leaked the infamous Greed is Good newsletter and Hilmar's e-mail - the rest is just terribly bad work by the PR department and lack of a crisis managment plan. CCP could easily have survived the fallout of a poor, buggy expansion, a CQ that melt's people gfx cards, and Monocle-gate, if the players hadn't learned of the looming pay-to-win. Without those documents leaked, this wouldn't have snowballed anywhere near so far, CCP wouldn't have lost so many subscribers they go into sheer panic, and no-one would have even thought of taking a look at CCP's financial statements.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:11:00 - [38] Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 23:13:54 Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 23:11:45 Originally by: Miilla It would have once it went live. It just happened earlier than they planned. That is why they are miffed. True, but I'm assuming that by the time pay-to-win went live, Dust would have been out - it's not as if CCP were going to launch pay-to-win right off that bat, it'd be done incrementally. The $70 monocles were a quick cash injection were to test the waters regarding just how much cash they could milk us for, and to show investors that there's plenty more profit to be made both from EVE and the upcoming projects. I'm thinking CCP were banking on Dust being a Huge Success and having enough income from that to absorb the loss of thousands of EVE subs from the p2w outrage.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:04:00 - [39] Edited by: diaufop on 28/06/2011 00:04:43 Originally by: Kruger81 Just a crazy thought... Who are the ppl most likely to try WoD and Dust? Who are the ppl most likely to tell other ppl how awsome it will be? I would have thought EvE players. Will you buy Dust or WoD after this? I used to play V:TM pen&paper many years ago, and was indeed looking forward to the WoD MMO back when it was first announced that CCP had bought out White Wolf all those years ago. As years went by, I started looking forward to it less and less, fearing that the recent Twilight sparkle craze would have a negative impact on CCP's interpretation of the game. By this point, I wouldn't play CCP's WoD MMO - if it ever gets released - if they paid me. Maybe if they sold to licence to some other company I'd play "a" WoD MMO, but not one from CCP. As for Dust, I stopped playing FPS games years ago so that was never on the cards for me.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.28 18:06:00 - [40] Originally by: Zen Sins Edited by: Zen Sins on 28/06/2011 17:09:32 Originally by: Miilla Short version: you are in no position to demand anything. I realize that the CSM's bargaining position is weak. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's completely weak. If the CSM were to, for example, decide they were used as a PR stunt and that CCP will be rolling in pay-to-win against the player's wishes, all they'd really need to do is to post on the forums exactly that, publicly resign and unsubscribe from the game, and encourage everyone else to do so as well. The CSM were largely voted in by their alliance blocs. Taking thousands more players with them when they go in addition to encouraging tens of thousands more to leave is a very clear threat to CCP - we've already seen that a mere 5K unsubs is enough to send CCP into panic mode, the threat of losing 10x that would put them into "****ting bricks" mode. Not that I personally believe the CSM would even consider doing such a thing, the whole CSM is nothing but an egotrip anyway.

diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.28 18:17:00 - [41] Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks mbl inteview ]What I got from that is: "We're never going to say "NO" to pay-to-win, because ultimately we will introduce them the moment we think we can garner more profit from them than we lose in subscriptions" - nothing new there, it's what we've been saying for the past week. "The statements from the newsletter and e-mail were taken out of context". The newsletter perhaps - although it's very clear that the newsletter was a NEWSletter and is used as an internal propaganda device to ensure everyone in the company is one the same page, not as a "discussion provoker". Only soundwave and turbefield's articles were "discussion", the rest was pure statement of intent. As for the e-mail, it was quoted wholly verbatim, how the **** is that out of context? "CCP have already decided what they're going to say and the CSM will be used as a tool to rubber-stamp our decisions and present them to the players." As we all expected anyway. How does it feel to be played for fools, oh mighty CSM? To be used as the PR stunt you avow you aren't?

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Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?

Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?

According to the tally, CCP is down $806,760 on annual subscription fees.

Originally by: Julian KirovHere's a presentation from the creators of BF:Heroes that explains why Hilmar gives no fcks about the forums.http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

This is a very interesting presentation. Everyone should... MUST watch it!This presentation will tell you why EVE Online WILL have a Cash Shop WITH GAME CHANGING ITEMS beyond vanity ones!! It shows that the business model works and why it will work in EVE too.

PENNY ARCADE CHIMES IN - NSFW

Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?

Originally by: Julian Kirov

Here's a presentation from the creators of BF:Heroes that explains why Hilmar gives no fcks about the forums.

http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

This is a very interesting presentation. Everyone should... MUST watch it!

This presentation will tell you why EVE Online WILL have a Cash Shop WITH GAME CHANGING ITEMS beyond vanity ones!! It shows that the business model works and why it will work in EVE too.