Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum.

---

Quote:

---

Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?

---

Originally by: Dimitri Fukoyama

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

---

Stopped reading there

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

If the Brits had won that war, the founding fathers would be remembered as the Osama bin Ladens of the late 18th century.

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

Originally by: Holly Cleland

---

has red bruising and veins popping up where the monocle plugs in.

---

Originally by: Skex Relbore

---

This isn't a prison and it isn't an asylum it's service they provide which we pay for. It's voluntary and we can and will take our money and go if they do not satisfy our needs/wants/desires.


Being responsive to the concerns of your customers is just good business sense. They wanted to see if they could get away with MT for power items/services and we gave them a resounding no. If they chose to go forward with P2W when they can do so with out my money.

What the protests and hell raising has done is make sure they can't sneak such changes through without us or the rest of the gaming community noticing.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

idiotic over dramatic metaphor

~Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Don Maddox

---

I'm not sure why people are surprised by any of this or would even think of calling for protesters to be banned. This is EXACTLY the way CCP has encouraged players to deal with each other in the game for years. EVE not only encourages players to band together and grief other players using the most destructive, onerous, and frustrating tactics possible, it practically forces players to operate in that fashion because nothing else works! In many subtle (and some not-so-subtle) ways, the devs have created an environment where banding together and imposing your will by whatever means necessary is the intuitive and instinctive way to play this game. It should surprise absolutely no one that the EVE community has now evolved (or mutated) into a state where we treat the developers in exactly the same fashion as they encourage us to treat each other.

You reap what you sow. And CCP has created a Frankenstein monster that will no longer blindly do as commanded. CCP talks a lot about bravery and creating new virtual worlds where players truly control their own destiny's. Well, CCP's response to this crisis is going to speak volumes about who they really are as a game company. And it will also reveal whether they really believe any of that fancy talk or whether it really is all just about the bucks.

So far the signs are not encouraging. CCP has demonstrated a remarkable degree of incompetence in dealing with their own game and the player community over the past 24 months. There's very little reason to believe they're capable or willing to stop and actually listen. They often hear what we say, but they don't listen.

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?101089-Leaked-internal-CCP-documents-reveal-EVE-s-new-focus-on-f2p-and-microtransactions/page2

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

---

Originally by: Jacoba Stalker

---

Inmates running the asylum?

Gotta clue for you; PAYING CUSTOMERS run this business, and if CCP wants to assert their authority (which is well within their power and right to do), then the customers that do not wish to follow along blindly to the showers, can and will assert THEIR authority and vote them out of business by taking their money (i.e. the fuel that runs CCP) and put it in another gas tank.

All the while departing the scene with a single finger salute.

---

Originally by: Lonox

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

You're stomping your little foot and threatening to leave if "teh ebil" CCP doesn't meet your childish and unrealistic demands. Even more hilarious? When you realised noone cares and started your emo rage asshat campaign. Funnier still? When you all come groveling back.

It will be awesome!

---

Originally by: Le Sabre

---

Kinda putting every protester and everyone shooting the monuments into the same league there op.

I joined in the protests for one reason, I didn't agree with the way CCP had presented itself to its playerbase, or some of its decisions in the latest patch. So, I went there to make sure if there was a CCP alt, media reporter or someone similar taking numbers, I wanted to make sure I was counted as one of the people who were unhappy.

The protests had a good effect, both in CCP finally noticing that they were not getting the traction they wanted with the store/direction/attitude and also gaining the game a lot of publicity, if CCP can sort the mess out, the media no doubt will report on the resolution of the problems which as everyone knows, good publicity is good for our game and will help generate the revenue that they are seeking. Eve will then be 'business as normal' and everybody's happy.

---

Originally by: i am jita

---

Edited by: i am jita on 26/06/2011 20:33:53

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

---

Obvious Fox News viewer. You sir are full weetard.

---

Originally by: Olvel

---

Players insisting on a promise that non-vanity items will never, ever appear on the NEX would be equally idiotic.

---

Originally by: Skex Relbore

---

This isn't a prison and it isn't an asylum . . . .

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

If CCP has any sense at all--and I'm not sure if they do--the result of this meeting will be to accelerate the deployment of non-vanity items.

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum. If the execs make a choice that can be in any way construed as a victory for the bedlam of the last several days, it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

People will go around wrecking trade hubs every time they feel like it, over any detail they decide they want. Given the insanity logic of many of the ragers, I really can't say they I want any of them in charge of the direction or future of the game.

The obvious way for CCP to get out of this with some semblance of credibility is to have the meeting, tell the CSM what's up, and move forward--most likely at a faster pace to show that they really mean it. If non-vanity items really weren't planned, they should throw them in there to make the point loud and clear. CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

A secondary option would be to backtrack slightly, but invoke the banhammer mercilessly against everyone who has violated the ToS. That would be the equivalent of saying, "We hear you. But we don't accept the way you made your voice heard."

Frankly, I'd like to see some combination of both options. Rules that don't get enforced, or are enforced intermittently, aren't really worth much of anything. Either enforce the rules or change them.

In any case, there's not a good option for those of who decided to intentionally wreck the trade hubs. You've ruined your cause.

As a side-note, I wouldn't listen to the CSM either. Their polling methodology is horribly messed up. You can't toss a vote thread right into the middle of a bunch of massively biased people and take that as some representation of the population.

Vote threads here are like polling only republicans on election day and saying, "OMG! 95% of The People voted republican! How did any democrats get elected? OMG! CONSPIRACY!!! Sony bought the government!!!!"

If either CSM or CCP is interested in finding out what the community really thinks, they should send out surveys to random subscribers and pay them ISK or SP to complete the study and look at that data.

On the other hand, what I got from the leaked email is that they did a bit of real research with a good survey methodology and came to a conclusion. I hope CCP sticks to its guns on this because I don't want to play in a universe run by protestors that ruin certain parts of the game by breaking the ToS.

If I'm wrong, and CCP never did that research, have someone contact me. My company will be happy to do some real, scientific research on the eve players.

~Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum. If the execs make a choice that can be in any way construed as a victory for the bedlam of the last several days, it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

~Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Dimitri Fukoyama

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

---

Stopped reading there

---

Meh, fair enough. One person's protest is another person's terrorist. It's just a matter of perspective.

The British called the Colonies terrorists back in that Revolution thing. Who ends up being called what by the history books is determined by who wins.

If the Brits had won that war, the founding fathers would be remembered as the Osama bin Ladens of the late 18th century.

And that's kind of my point. If the protestors win, you become heros of eve against the evil CCP empire. CCP can't let that happen, or the whole game goes to crap. The protestors have to go in any reasonable scenario.

---

Originally by: Ordon Gundar

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Dimitri Fukoyama

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

---

Stopped reading there

---

Meh, fair enough. One person's protest is another person's terrorist. It's just a matter of perspective.

The British called the Colonies terrorists back in that Revolution thing. Who ends up being called what by the history books is determined by who wins.

If the Brits had won that war, the founding fathers would be remembered as the Osama bin Ladens of the late 18th century.

And that's kind of my point. If the protestors win, you become heros of eve against the evil CCP empire. CCP can't let that happen, or the whole game goes to crap. The protestors have to go in any reasonable scenario.

---

Founding fathers? You mean the French. Without our Froggie friends, North America would still be a colony.

CCP can chain the inmates if they like. Except this is business, and we are customers. If we leave, they die. EvE dies.

---

Originally by: Le Sabre

---

Kinda putting every protester and everyone shooting the monuments into the same league there op. . . .

---

Originally by: Jacoba Stalker

---

Inmates running the asylum?

Gotta clue for you; PAYING CUSTOMERS run this business, and if CCP wants to assert their authority (which is well within their power and right to do), then the customers that do not wish to follow along blindly to the showers, can and will assert THEIR authority and vote them out of business by taking their money (i.e. the fuel that runs CCP) and put it in another gas tank.

All the while departing the scene with a single finger salute.

---

Originally by: Scerolikk Teromni

---

Businesses are ruled by their customers.

---

Originally by: Allestin Villimar

---

Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.

Originally by: Torothanax

---

Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.

Originally by: APOLL0S

---

Does anyone else kinda get the feeling like they've seen this all before?

Does anyone else remember the protests in the market hubs of Star Wars Galaxies when the Combat Downgrade was unceremoniously thrust on the player base?

CCP getting in bed with Sony for Dust could very well be the downfall of Eve.

Linkage

The whole thing reeks of John Smedley,

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Perhaps I'm wrong - YES you are completely! In any case, breaking the rules you agreed to when you signed up to play shouldn't have any effect on anyone's business decisions. It should just get you banned - AND if the other side of the coin breaks there rules and agreements? How then shall they make restituation? Banned from the Office? [Fired, Releaved of duty, Sacked?... hmmmm?.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Thank you for the clue. In my opinion, businesses are not run by customers. They are run by executives and possibly investors. If losing you and others were not planned into CCP's strategy, shame on them for not taking that possibility into account. That's bad business.

But I think it was. Perhaps I'm wrong. In any case, breaking the rules you agreed to when you signed up to play shouldn't have any effect on anyone's business decisions. It should just get you banned.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

And lest I sound like too much of a carebear, I would say this: you would probably have a better effect and possibly stay within the ToS if people organized a bunch of high-sec suicide gank fleets and just roamed around killing randoms. That would probably wake up a significant part of the eve population that doesn't care right now.

But the facade of a peaceful protest and the idea that you are all pulling some kind of a collective Ghandi is completely dishonest, childish, and a clear violation of the ToS. It deserves ban out of principle.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Skex Relbore

---

This isn't a prison and it isn't an asylum . . . .

---

Then why can't you leave? You keep saying you are, and yet you're still here. Sounds like some sort of prison to me. Maybe it's just in your mind though.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

You can't toss a vote thread right into the middle of a bunch of massively biased people and take that as some representation of the population.

---

Originally by: Lykouleon

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

If the Brits had won that war, the founding fathers would be remembered as the Osama bin Ladens of the late 18th century.

---

Butt-hurt Brit nationalist and/or Iranian nationalist detected...

---

Originally by: Korinne

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum. If the execs make a choice that can be in any way construed as a victory for the bedlam of the last several days, it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

~Tron Flux

---

Your initial premise is flawed. This is not a prison, if we desub we don't get shot. This is a consumer driven economy, thus your analogy is inherently flawed. In this case the inmates actually do run the prison, and the warden's job is to keep the inmates happy and not rioting; rioting in this case being the players raging and desubbing.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Maybe this will help: if A, then B. If B, then C. C is bad. C is something that CCP can't allow to happen.

---

Originally by: WachinDaGame DrinkinABud

---

...If it is pay to win, then I'm out.

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

If there is a major problem with NEX, it's that watching the train wreck of rage-quitters claim to quit without actually quitting on the forums is actually more entertaining than playing EVE at the moment.

---

Originally by: Meridian Siri

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Thank you for the clue. In my opinion, businesses are not run by customers. They are run by executives and possibly investors. If losing you and others were not planned into CCP's strategy, shame on them for not taking that possibility into account. That's bad business.

But I think it was. Perhaps I'm wrong. In any case, breaking the rules you agreed to when you signed up to play shouldn't have any effect on anyone's business decisions. It should just get you banned.

---

Dude; you ever run a business? The customers sure as hell guide the direction of the business if the owners want to make money, which I believe is the goal of most businesses. I think that CCP may have underestimated the response of the player base on this so, like you said, bad business call.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

If CCP has any sense at all--and I'm not sure if they do--the result of this meeting will be to accelerate the deployment of non-vanity items.

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum. If the execs make a choice that can be in any way construed as a victory for the bedlam of the last several days, it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

People will go around wrecking trade hubs every time they feel like it, over any detail they decide they want. Given the insanity logic of many of the ragers, I really can't say they I want any of them in charge of the direction or future of the game.

The obvious way for CCP to get out of this with some semblance of credibility is to have the meeting, tell the CSM what's up, and move forward--most likely at a faster pace to show that they really mean it. If non-vanity items really weren't planned, they should throw them in there to make the point loud and clear. CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

A secondary option would be to backtrack slightly, but invoke the banhammer mercilessly against everyone who has violated the ToS. That would be the equivalent of saying, "We hear you. But we don't accept the way you made your voice heard."

Frankly, I'd like to see some combination of both options. Rules that don't get enforced, or are enforced intermittently, aren't really worth much of anything. Either enforce the rules or change them.

In any case, there's not a good option for those of who decided to intentionally wreck the trade hubs. You've ruined your cause.

As a side-note, I wouldn't listen to the CSM either. Their polling methodology is horribly messed up. You can't toss a vote thread right into the middle of a bunch of massively biased people and take that as some representation of the population.

Vote threads here are like polling only republicans on election day and saying, "OMG! 95% of The People voted republican! How did any democrats get elected? OMG! CONSPIRACY!!! Sony bought the government!!!!"

If either CSM or CCP is interested in finding out what the community really thinks, they should send out surveys to random subscribers and pay them ISK or SP to complete the study and look at that data.

On the other hand, what I got from the leaked email is that they did a bit of real research with a good survey methodology and came to a conclusion. I hope CCP sticks to its guns on this because I don't want to play in a universe run by protestors that ruin certain parts of the game by breaking the ToS.

If I'm wrong, and CCP never did that research, have someone contact me. My company will be happy to do some real, scientific research on the eve players.

~Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

I currently own one business, and I am the CEO of another. My opinion is different. In both cases, the business produces the highest quality product that we can envision, then we find markets for that product. If some people don't want it, that's fine with me.

I don't sit around listening to what people think they want and then try to cater to them. I build the best in the industries (two completely unrelated ones) and sell it to people who want it.

My RL wallet isn't hurting.

---

Originally by: Rayce Farelle

---

we do not needEVE.

---

Originally by: Holly Cleland

---

has red bruising and veins popping up where the monocle plugs in.

---

Originally by: Mag's

---

OP is mad?

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

I currently own one business, and I am the CEO of another. My opinion is different. In both cases, the business produces the highest quality product that we can envision, then we find markets for that product. If some people don't want it, that's fine with me.

I don't sit around listening to what people think they want and then try to cater to them. I build the best in the industries (two completely unrelated ones) and sell it to people who want it.

My RL wallet isn't hurting.

---

Originally by: LIOZTH

---

Edited by: LIOZTH on 26/06/2011 21:18:10

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

If there is a major problem with NEX, it's that watching the train wreck of rage-quitters claim to quit without actually quitting on the forums is actually more entertaining than playing EVE at the moment.

---

I have 4 unsubbed accounts, with time still left on them, time I'll use to my advantage and make my point as needed. If they don't make changes they will stay as they are. At some point EvE will start it's violent subscription downward spira, and begin heading toward the MMO graveyard.

---

Originally by: Ghard Eleran

---

Edited by: Ghard Eleran on 26/06/2011 20:38:33

Originally by: Lonox

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

You're stomping your little foot and threatening to leave if "teh ebil" CCP doesn't meet your childish and unrealistic demands. Even more hilarious? When you realised noone cares and started your emo rage asshat campaign. Funnier still? When you all come groveling back.

It will be awesome!

---

are our demands so childish and unrealistic? what do you think our demands exactly are? please enlighten me what is it i am protesting against?

---

Originally by: Holly Cleland

---

has red bruising and veins popping up where the monocle plugs in.

---

Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk

---

You point out a very interesting element to all this.

Who wears the $1000 pants in this relationship.

CCP Clearly, and i mean CLEARLY think *they* wearthe Ponts. But.....

Times. They are a'changin....

---

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny

---

Oh, this is good

Remember everyone, first produce products THEN find a market for them.

Also he owns one business and is the CEO of another

---

Originally by: Ayieka

---

jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?

---

Originally by: Ayieka

---

jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Ayieka

---

jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?

---

Does every protester have to act like a 2-year old with a dirty diaper?

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Ayieka

---

jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?

---

Does every protester have to act like a 2-year old with a dirty diaper?

---

Originally by: Kronir

---

Terrorists is a word thrown around too often nowadays.

Just like in the 50s and 60s the word Communist was over used.

In both cases the people didn't understand the true meaning.

---

Originally by: Desert Ice78

---

Your an idiot. Go away.

---

Originally by: El'Niaga

---

If CCP is reading the tea leaves correctly they know they can't survive if this continues. While everything desired probably will not be given, I do see them making some backtracking.

---

Originally by: Lonox

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

You're stomping your little foot and threatening to leave if "teh ebil" CCP doesn't meet your childish and unrealistic demands. Even more hilarious? When you realised noone cares and started your emo rage asshat campaign. Funnier still? When you all come groveling back.

It will be awesome!

---

Originally by: Gabriel Grimoire

---

Originally by: Ayieka

---

jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?

---

Yes. They all spout self-righteous holier-than-thou rhetoric whilst fapping to a picture of themselves fapping.

---

Originally by: the plague

---

Edited by: the plague on 26/06/2011 20:35:51

Originally by: Don Maddox

---

I'm not sure why people are surprised by any of this or would even think of calling for protesters to be banned. This is EXACTLY the way CCP has encouraged players to deal with each other in the game for years. EVE not only encourages players to band together and grief other players using the most destructive, onerous, and frustrating tactics possible, it practically forces players to operate in that fashion because nothing else works! In many subtle (and some not-so-subtle) ways, the devs have created an environment where banding together and imposing your will by whatever means necessary is the intuitive and instinctive way to play this game. It should surprise absolutely no one that the EVE community has now evolved (or mutated) into a state where we treat the developers in exactly the same fashion as they encourage us to treat each other.

You reap what you sow. And CCP has created a Frankenstein monster that will no longer blindly do as commanded. CCP talks a lot about bravery and creating new virtual worlds where players truly control their own destiny's. Well, CCP's response to this crisis is going to speak volumes about who they really are as a game company. And it will also reveal whether they really believe any of that fancy talk or whether it really is all just about the bucks.

So far the signs are not encouraging. CCP has demonstrated a remarkable degree of incompetence in dealing with their own game and the player community over the past 24 months. There's very little reason to believe they're capable or willing to stop and actually listen. They often hear what we say, but they don't listen.

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?101089-Leaked-internal-CCP-documents-reveal-EVE-s-new-focus-on-f2p-and-microtransactions/page2

---

Pretty much.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

If CCP has any sense at all--and I'm not sure if they do--the result of this meeting will be to accelerate the deployment of non-vanity items.

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum.

---

Originally by: Odium Eternus

---

I stopped reading there. Why? Because you are more wrong than you'll ever be in your life. This is not an asylum, it is a business and the demand of the product you make gets you the profit to run the business. If the buyers of that product ... in this case angered eve players ... do not want that product ... you WILL change it or you WILL lose your business.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

If CCP has any sense at all--and I'm not sure if they do--the result of this meeting will be to accelerate the deployment of non-vanity items.

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum. If the execs make a choice that can be in any way construed as a victory for the bedlam of the last several days, it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

People will go around wrecking trade hubs every time they feel like it, over any detail they decide they want. Given the insanity logic of many of the ragers, I really can't say they I want any of them in charge of the direction or future of the game.

The obvious way for CCP to get out of this with some semblance of credibility is to have the meeting, tell the CSM what's up, and move forward--most likely at a faster pace to show that they really mean it. If non-vanity items really weren't planned, they should throw them in there to make the point loud and clear. CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

A secondary option would be to backtrack slightly, but invoke the banhammer mercilessly against everyone who has violated the ToS. That would be the equivalent of saying, "We hear you. But we don't accept the way you made your voice heard."

Frankly, I'd like to see some combination of both options. Rules that don't get enforced, or are enforced intermittently, aren't really worth much of anything. Either enforce the rules or change them.

In any case, there's not a good option for those of who decided to intentionally wreck the trade hubs. You've ruined your cause.

As a side-note, I wouldn't listen to the CSM either. Their polling methodology is horribly messed up. You can't toss a vote thread right into the middle of a bunch of massively biased people and take that as some representation of the population.

Vote threads here are like polling only republicans on election day and saying, "OMG! 95% of The People voted republican! How did any democrats get elected? OMG! CONSPIRACY!!! Sony bought the government!!!!"

If either CSM or CCP is interested in finding out what the community really thinks, they should send out surveys to random subscribers and pay them ISK or SP to complete the study and look at that data.

On the other hand, what I got from the leaked email is that they did a bit of real research with a good survey methodology and came to a conclusion. I hope CCP sticks to its guns on this because I don't want to play in a universe run by protestors that ruin certain parts of the game by breaking the ToS.

If I'm wrong, and CCP never did that research, have someone contact me. My company will be happy to do some real, scientific research on the eve players.

~Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Baillif

---

Originally by: the plague

---

Edited by: the plague on 26/06/2011 20:35:51

Originally by: Don Maddox

---

I'm not sure why people are surprised by any of this or would even think of calling for protesters to be banned. This is EXACTLY the way CCP has encouraged players to deal with each other in the game for years. EVE not only encourages players to band together and grief other players using the most destructive, onerous, and frustrating tactics possible, it practically forces players to operate in that fashion because nothing else works! In many subtle (and some not-so-subtle) ways, the devs have created an environment where banding together and imposing your will by whatever means necessary is the intuitive and instinctive way to play this game. It should surprise absolutely no one that the EVE community has now evolved (or mutated) into a state where we treat the developers in exactly the same fashion as they encourage us to treat each other.

You reap what you sow. And CCP has created a Frankenstein monster that will no longer blindly do as commanded. CCP talks a lot about bravery and creating new virtual worlds where players truly control their own destiny's. Well, CCP's response to this crisis is going to speak volumes about who they really are as a game company. And it will also reveal whether they really believe any of that fancy talk or whether it really is all just about the bucks.

So far the signs are not encouraging. CCP has demonstrated a remarkable degree of incompetence in dealing with their own game and the player community over the past 24 months. There's very little reason to believe they're capable or willing to stop and actually listen. They often hear what we say, but they don't listen.

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?101089-Leaked-internal-CCP-documents-reveal-EVE-s-new-focus-on-f2p-and-microtransactions/page2

---

Pretty much.

---

We have spais in their base.

Our propaganda machine is much larger and stronger than theirs

We have better organizational capabilities from years of sov warfare

We are patient enough to siege for several days at a time on very little sleep

We are the monster of CCP's making

---

Originally by: Raellah

---

LOL crap troll

This is not something players of this game habitually engage in and you would know this if you weren't an 8-month old character. Quit being so butthurt because other pilots have protested their outrage at the possibility of eve turning into WoW in space. They are doing this to maintain game balance.

---

Originally by: CCP Guard

---

Nobody gets to ruin EVE but us!

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Meridian Siri

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Thank you for the clue. In my opinion, businesses are not run by customers. They are run by executives and possibly investors. If losing you and others were not planned into CCP's strategy, shame on them for not taking that possibility into account. That's bad business.

But I think it was. Perhaps I'm wrong. In any case, breaking the rules you agreed to when you signed up to play shouldn't have any effect on anyone's business decisions. It should just get you banned.

---

Dude; you ever run a business? The customers sure as hell guide the direction of the business if the owners want to make money, which I believe is the goal of most businesses. I think that CCP may have underestimated the response of the player base on this so, like you said, bad business call.

---

I currently own one business, and I am the CEO of another. My opinion is different. In both cases, the business produces the highest quality product that we can envision, then we find markets for that product. If some people don't want it, that's fine with me.

I don't sit around listening to what people think they want and then try to cater to them. I build the best in the industries (two completely unrelated ones) and sell it to people who want it.

My RL wallet isn't hurting.

---

Originally by: R2 D3

---

Tron Flux, as a person who isn't leaving, yet unhappy with the nex changes (as the majority of the customers) I think the main problem older players have (or at least I do and I believe other people with me).
Is the fact that CCP promised they wouldn't do this and yet they did.
Obviously they are free to enforce this changes if they feel that's the best direction.

Back in the day CCP wanted to charge 5 euro a month extra for players who used eve voice. When nobody used it they made it free. So if a certain option cost extra rl cash and isn't used because of it, it will change in the long run. So ccp did listen to the customers in the past.

Do you as a ceo irl ever make use of feedback or are used towards the 360 degree review concept?

regardless of the ccp are amateur whines I think they will decide for themselves of forcing vanity items and losing a lot of the current playerbase (but if it restores it will be a great oppurtunity for more money), or removing vanity items and keeping the current player base happy. Or the most likely option they will try to write dev blogs and end up with some vanity items anyway but not those who really affect the gameplay. (Like special weapons/ships).

last but not least if they did this research, there are still some patterns happening atm I can't imagine they expected in the research. I don't know wether or not you are familiar with the shell brent spar case? This is a lot like it imo.

---

Originally by: Ildryn

---

"we pay their salary and they don't listen"
sounds a lot like "i pay that cops salary and still got a ticket!"

P2W started with Plex.
Protesting now is kinda meh.
I really hope they do introduce T3 Frigs/ammo and such through the NeX store.
Ill buy one...either with plex or the market.

This NeX store is not a p2w button you know.
It is only p2w if the items are locked to a character.
Anyone can buy and sell on the open market. So everyone can participate.
Even the protestors.
And not trying to talk down to anyone or anything. If you are quitting just quit.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

If CCP has any sense at all--and I'm not sure if they do--the result of this meeting will be to accelerate the deployment of non-vanity items.

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum. -snip-

---

Originally by: RougeOperator

---

Originally by: Ildryn

---

"we pay their salary and they don't listen"
sounds a lot like "i pay that cops salary and still got a ticket!"

P2W started with Plex.
Protesting now is kinda meh.
I really hope they do introduce T3 Frigs/ammo and such through the NeX store.
Ill buy one...either with plex or the market.

This NeX store is not a p2w button you know.
It is only p2w if the items are locked to a character.
Anyone can buy and sell on the open market. So everyone can participate.
Even the protestors.
And not trying to talk down to anyone or anything. If you are quitting just quit.

---

Cops are public sector. CCP is private.

Its not even remotely the same thing.

---

Originally by: Ayieka

---

jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01
I agree with the outcome, though not the reasons the op has stated.

The damage has already been done, doubtful that ccp walks away with any credibility after this, as perception is reality.

I would like to believe the csm meeting will have a positive impact, but it is most likely too little too late.
Media has already hammered ccp reputation and continues to do so. Many players have already stated open distrust of ccp, this compounded by the lack an official response, has damaged ccp even further.

I see this ending in one of a few ways.

1. eve loses enough subscribers, they have no recourse but to make mt of the bad kind part of eve, in an attempt to stay profitable.

2. Pride gets the better of ccp, they decide to stay course as it were, ensuring an exodus of older players in hopes of attracting new players. a huge, HUGE, gamble at best.

3. Ccp decides to cut its losses and sells the rights to another developer or competitor, even this does not garuntee eve's existence as an mmo. many times when a game developer sells to another, the buying party buys the rights to the code. That has ensured many games never see the light of day again, be it in the form of a sequel or a remake, because the new owner can charge whatever they want for licensing, royalties and what not.

4. If somehow ccp survives this, they fix whats wrong, actually talk to the playerbase, and certain someone issues an apology, eve still exist possibly better than it was. This given the history is the least likely to happen.

I hope im wrong and outcome #4 happens, but until proven otherwise, I stand by what i said.

---

Originally by: Baillif

---

We have spais in their base.
Our propaganda machine is much larger and stronger than theirs
We have better organizational capabilities from years of sov warfare
We are patient enough to siege for several days at a time on very little sleep
We are the monster of CCP's making

---

Originally by: Le Sabre

---

Going around shooting the playerbase you are trying to protect from bad design ideas is not going to help the protesters image really now is it?

---

Originally by: Anon Forumalt6858

---

Originally by: Baillif

---

We have spais in their base.
Our propaganda machine is much larger and stronger than theirs
We have better organizational capabilities from years of sov warfare
We are patient enough to siege for several days at a time on very little sleep
We are the monster of CCP's making

---

Ironically, this is both funny and true, which is why I have a similar sentiment in my signature.

We have an excellent understanding of propaganda, organization, character assassination, persistence, and endurance thanks to our experiences in Eve. I'm not exactly proud of every bit of what's been said by our community over the last few days, but it was all a means to an end and needed. War is hell, as the saying goes.

I just hope that the results of this CSM meeting are what we're looking for. I'm a bit concerned over the word 'compromise' being said, since as a playerbase, I don't really see us willing to make concessions on the issues dear to our hearts, but we shall see.

---

Originally by: IRTEHAZN

---

i love the way ccp advertise this game as a player driven game

---

Originally by: Baillif

---

We have spais in their base.

Our propaganda machine is much larger and stronger than theirs

We have better organizational capabilities from years of sov warfare

We are patient enough to siege for several days at a time on very little sleep

We are the monster of CCP's making

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

...

---

Originally by: Eriam JH

---

Ooh, ooh... I like analogies! Can I play, too?

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Essentially, I think you and your 4 accounts are irrelevant to CCP. You should probably start accepting that.

---

Originally by: Ayieka

---

jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?

---

Originally by: Scerolikk Teromni

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum.

---

Umm.............. what?

EVE isn't a prison, it's a video game, and CCP isn't a government, it's a business. Businesses are ruled by their customers. If you make your customers unhappy, they leave, and if enough customers leave, well, you won't have much of a business. If CCP refuses to listen to the protests and accelerate their MT plans to prove that they "[don't] play ball with virtual terrorists" well then so long CCP, you had a good run.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

In my opinion, businesses are not run by customers. They are run by executives and possibly investors. If losing you and others were not planned into CCP's strategy, shame on them for not taking that possibility into account. That's bad business.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01
I agree with the outcome, though not the reasons the op has stated.

The damage has already been done, doubtful that ccp walks away with any credibility after this, as perception is reality.

I would like to believe the csm meeting will have a positive impact, but it is most likely too little too late.
Media has already hammered ccp reputation and continues to do so. Many players have already stated open distrust of ccp, this compounded by the lack an official response, has damaged ccp even further.

I see this ending in one of a few ways.

1. eve loses enough subscribers, they have no recourse but to make mt of the bad kind part of eve, in an attempt to stay profitable.

2. Pride gets the better of ccp, they decide to stay course as it were, ensuring an exodus of older players in hopes of attracting new players. a huge, HUGE, gamble at best.

3. Ccp decides to cut its losses and sells the rights to another developer or competitor, even this does not garuntee eve's existence as an mmo. many times when a game developer sells to another, the buying party buys the rights to the code. That has ensured many games never see the light of day again, be it in the form of a sequel or a remake, because the new owner can charge whatever they want for licensing, royalties and what not.

4. If somehow ccp survives this, they fix whats wrong, actually talk to the playerbase, and certain someone issues an apology, eve still exist possibly better than it was. This given the history is the least likely to happen.

I hope im wrong and outcome #4 happens, but until proven otherwise, I stand by what i said.

---

The first 3 of your points hinge on the idea that enough people will leave to impact CCP's bottom line. That's our primary disagreement. My opinion is that it won't happen.
But I have no hard data on the total number os subs CCP has at the moment, so I can't say for sure.
If the unsub number is high enough to make CCP worry, things will probably change. If it's not, things probably won't.

My bet at the moment is that the number isn't high enough.

---

Originally by: Tomasa de Torquemada

---

Then why do they not just go ahead and leave rather than jam up the systems by violating ToS and the EULA?

---

Quote:

---

Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?

---

Originally by: Evet Morrel

---

Edited by: Evet Morrel on 26/06/2011 22:39:35

Originally by: Ayieka

---

jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?

---

Does every protester have to act like a 2-year old with a dirty diaper?

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01
I agree with the outcome, though not the reasons the op has stated.

The damage has already been done, doubtful that ccp walks away with any credibility after this, as perception is reality.

I would like to believe the csm meeting will have a positive impact, but it is most likely too little too late.
Media has already hammered ccp reputation and continues to do so. Many players have already stated open distrust of ccp, this compounded by the lack an official response, has damaged ccp even further.

I see this ending in one of a few ways.

1. eve loses enough subscribers, they have no recourse but to make mt of the bad kind part of eve, in an attempt to stay profitable.

2. Pride gets the better of ccp, they decide to stay course as it were, ensuring an exodus of older players in hopes of attracting new players. a huge, HUGE, gamble at best.

3. Ccp decides to cut its losses and sells the rights to another developer or competitor, even this does not garuntee eve's existence as an mmo. many times when a game developer sells to another, the buying party buys the rights to the code. That has ensured many games never see the light of day again, be it in the form of a sequel or a remake, because the new owner can charge whatever they want for licensing, royalties and what not.

4. If somehow ccp survives this, they fix whats wrong, actually talk to the playerbase, and certain someone issues an apology, eve still exist possibly better than it was. This given the history is the least likely to happen.

I hope im wrong and outcome #4 happens, but until proven otherwise, I stand by what i said.

---

The first 3 of your points hinge on the idea that enough people will leave to impact CCP's bottom line. That's our primary disagreement. My opinion is that it won't happen.
But I have no hard data on the total number os subs CCP has at the moment, so I can't say for sure.
If the unsub number is high enough to make CCP worry, things will probably change. If it's not, things probably won't.

My bet at the moment is that the number isn't high enough.

---

current number of unsubscribed 4484
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AtUHbyNk0JSGdHR1TDhrRVhhQTUzLUMyVTNZdjJUaHc&output=html

As for where we disagree on this matter, how many people are largely undecided on this matter or who are going to quit and simply did not see fit to resort the methods of rioting and riotposting. Your points hinge on the majority of players staying. 4000+ people canceling subscriptions at this point in time is worrying to ccp. Dust514 still needs money to be developed, World of Darkness needs money to be developed. Bad press discourages new people who might have otherwise tried and become regular subscribers. No new players means no growth, no growth means people get bored and leave. This has happened to other mmos. Some are banking on ccp to somehow come out of this intact. I just do not see that happening.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

---

Originally by: Benilopax

---

What's clear is that CCP have not attempted to break up the protests, ban anyone or even threaten to do so.

They accept that players are unhappy and that they need to change things.

Otherwise they would have healed zero everyone who went near that statue.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Let's focus for a moment on one particular issue. There are enough people of sound mind reading and replying to this thread that I want to engage in a specific discussion.

Let's take all of the current stuff out of a hypothetical situation for a moment.

Given that a player has clearly violated the Terms of Service, do you think that player should be sanctioned in some way?

Let's not read into it more than that because there are a lot of ways to interpret the ToS.

Let's just say someone has done this. Do you apply consequences out of principle or do you not?

Why or why not?

---

Originally by: Anon Forumalt6858

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Let's focus for a moment on one particular issue. There are enough people of sound mind reading and replying to this thread that I want to engage in a specific discussion.

Let's take all of the current stuff out of a hypothetical situation for a moment.

Given that a player has clearly violated the Terms of Service, do you think that player should be sanctioned in some way?

Let's not read into it more than that because there are a lot of ways to interpret the ToS.

Let's just say someone has done this. Do you apply consequences out of principle or do you not?

Why or why not?

---

Sorry, shoehorning the conversation into one particular angle of one particular topic that only you're interested in isn't open dialogue. Not going to engage in a prefabricated discussion on your turf, but thanks for asking.

If you're open to discussing the actual heart of the issue as opposed to a splintered off aspect that really has no bearing on the real problem at hand, let's talk about corporate responsibility in not deceiving or reneging on their customers.

---

Originally by: WachinDaGame DrinkinABud

---

Since when do prisoners pay to stay in jail? If a prisoner does not get what he wants can he simply leave?What a terrible analogy.

This can only be related to a business practice. What if a pizza joint started saying they are not putting cheese on pizza anymore. If some people asked to get cheese and the company said "go f_ck yourself", don't you think those customers would leave? Don't you think they would tell other potential customers to not bother going there? Even customers that are OK with no cheese might look poorly on how they treated all those other former customers and wonder will they be next?

A pizza you spend a few minutes of time investment. With Eve most of us have spend YEARS investing time and effort. They said it themselves that it is OUR game, not theirs, and in my opinion that is what makes/made the game great for this long. This appears to be changing and that is why people are upset.

We are talking about a paradigm shift here, not the fact that MT will exist. If it is vanity only, I just won't buy it. If it is pay to win, then I'm out.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

If CCP has any sense at all--and I'm not sure if they do--the result of this meeting will be to accelerate the deployment of non-vanity items.

It they had common business sense they woul have addressed the issue with the customers.

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum. If the execs make a choice that can be in any way construed as a victory for the bedlam of the last several days, it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

Paying customers, not inmates. This idea leads to the perception that we should accept everything, because as their customer base we shouldn't have a say. However, there is no excuse for players attempting to "damage" the game or ruin if for others in an attempt to be heard.

The obvious way for CCP to get out of this with some semblance of credibility is to have the meeting, tell the CSM what's up, and move forward--most likely at a faster pace to show that they really mean it. If non-vanity items really weren't planned, they should throw them in there to make the point loud and clear. CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

No the obvious way to handle this is to addess the customer's concerns and not with blogs that simply restate what the problems are, but fail to answer anything with a solid answer.

A secondary option would be to backtrack slightly, but invoke the banhammer mercilessly against everyone who has violated the ToS. That would be the equivalent of saying, "We hear you. But we don't accept the way you made your voice heard."

I agree with this fully.

Frankly, I'd like to see some combination of both options. Rules that don't get enforced, or are enforced intermittently, aren't really worth much of anything. Either enforce the rules or change them.

Yes, this is correct.

In any case, there's not a good option for those of who decided to intentionally wreck the trade hubs. You've ruined your cause.

The only thing that should happen is ban hammer, if CCP use them asa reason for going forward with their plans and not responding to the honest questions, then they were going to do it anyway and have zero customer service.
~Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

People will go around wrecking trade hubs every time they feel like it, over any detail they decide they want. Given the insanity logic of many of the ragers, I really can't say they I want any of them in charge of the direction or future of the game.

---

Originally by: Vladkar

---

Since when do inmates pay to be kept in an asylum...

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

[I do, however, remember checking a box when I signed up that was a promise from me that I wouldn't do certain things. Like:

Eve ToS

16. You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

---

Originally by: Benri Konpaku

---

Let's see how well CCP higher ups do without the patients' money.

---

Originally by: Diamaht Nevain

---

Originally by: Benri Konpaku

---

Let's see how well CCP higher ups do without the patients' money.

---

They'll gain a lot more players than they lose by continuing to add new avenues of game-play. They will appeal to a larger variety people and the entire population will benefit.

Personally I don't think any of you are going anywhere, but in case you are: Watch the door on your way out, and as always can I have your stuff?

---

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny

---

Originally by: Diamaht Nevain

---

Originally by: Benri Konpaku

---

Let's see how well CCP higher ups do without the patients' money.

---

They'll gain a lot more players than they lose by continuing to add new avenues of game-play. They will appeal to a larger variety people and the entire population will benefit.

Personally I don't think any of you are going anywhere, but in case you are: Watch the door on your way out, and as always can I have your stuff?

---

Not with all the negativity being spread through Kotaku, PC Gamer, Massively, etc

---

Originally by: Demure Guise

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

[I do, however, remember checking a box when I signed up that was a promise from me that I wouldn't do certain things. Like:

Eve ToS

16. You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

---

Shooting a Memorial isn't mentioned in there and was an attention-grabbing visual display very roughly akin to burning a national flag. Players travelling about their business could easily go around Jita/Amarr to get where they want to go, and it certainly didn't stop them from getting from A to B. The protests weren't intended to cause a server crash and, indeed caused no server crashes whatsoever. Actually causing one isn't possible because the System's Jump Gates auto-lock at a certain point.

I saw no cans dropped, and it would be completely pointless because CCP delete excessive numbers of cans anyway. Note that I saw no evidence of people making Bookmark after Bookmark, either, which would probably have been a more effective ploy to cause lag if that was the aim of the protesters - which it wasn't. OK, some players may have had a bit of a wait to get into the system, but there you go - a five-minute wait certainly did them no permanent damage! Oh, and as long as I have been playing, Local Chat has never been moderated. (I wish some fellow protesters would keep out of the Help channel though. )

I did notice one buffoon suggest in Local that people should start suicide-ganking 'Noobs' (I bloody hate that term...) to **** other players off, and to the credit of the protesters, this was immediately censured. No way would I be part of that. Guys, we may be ****ed off but - no. Just... no.

---

Originally by: Fi1ippo

---

Here's a clue dip****: the people that pay CCP run this joint. When they leave, this place goes under.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

You don't understand the "including, but not limited" clause, do you? The examples listed are a couple of instances that fall under the broader umbrella of interfering with other players' ability to enjoy the game within stated guidelines. If your stated goal was to do this--and it was--you broke the ToS.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Jacoba Stalker

---

Inmates running the asylum?

Gotta clue for you; .

---

<sensible stuff......> In any case, breaking the rules you agreed to when you signed up to play shouldn't have any effect on anyone's business decisions. It should just get you banned.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Fi1ippo

---

Here's a clue dip****: the people that pay CCP run this joint. When they leave, this place goes under.

---

Well then, I wish you the best of luck in whatever game you move to.

Please back up your word with action and actually leave this game. We'll see what happens when you take off.

---

Originally by: Lonox

---

You're stomping your little foot and threatening to leave if "teh ebil" CCP doesn't meet your childish and unrealistic demands. Even more hilarious? When you realised noone cares and started your emo rage asshat campaign. Funnier still? When you all come groveling back.

---

Originally by: Mattias Kerensky

---

Originally by: Lonox

---

You're stomping your little foot and threatening to leave if "teh ebil" CCP doesn't meet your childish and unrealistic demands. Even more hilarious? When you realised noone cares and started your emo rage asshat campaign. Funnier still? When you all come groveling back.

---

No one cares? So how do you explain a million+ view ThreadTitan on the forums, combined with thousands of players protesting, and more threads in the last 24 hours than have been posted in the entire week before?

Nobody cares. Right.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Skex Relbore

---

This isn't a prison and it isn't an asylum it's service they provide which we pay for. It's voluntary and we can and will take our money and go if they do not satisfy our needs/wants/desires.


Being responsive to the concerns of your customers is just good business sense. They wanted to see if they could get away with MT for power items/services and we gave them a resounding no. If they chose to go forward with P2W when they can do so with out my money.

What the protests and hell raising has done is make sure they can't sneak such changes through without us or the rest of the gaming community noticing.

---

You're not much for analogy or literary reference, are you?

How is this: the protests are a story told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Skex Relbore

---

This isn't a prison and it isn't an asylum . . . .

---

Then why can't you leave? You keep saying you are, and yet you're still here. Sounds like some sort of prison to me. Maybe it's just in your mind though.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

If there is a major problem with NEX, it's that watching the train wreck of rage-quitters claim to quit without actually quitting on the forums is actually more entertaining than playing EVE at the moment.

---

Originally by: WachinDaGame DrinkinABud

---

Since when do prisoners pay to stay in jail? If a prisoner does not get what he wants can he simply leave?

What a terrible analogy.

This can only be related to a business practice. What if a pizza joint started saying they are not putting cheese on pizza anymore. If some people asked to get cheese and the company said "go f_ck yourself", don't you think those customers would leave? Don't you think they would tell other potential customers to not bother going there? Even customers that are OK with no cheese might look poorly on how they treated all those other former customers and wonder will they be next?

A pizza you spend a few minutes of time investment. With Eve most of us have spend YEARS investing time and effort. They said it themselves that it is OUR game, not theirs, and in my opinion that is what makes/made the game great for this long. This appears to be changing and that is why people are upset.

We are talking about a paradigm shift here, not the fact that MT will exist. If it is vanity only, I just won't buy it. If it is pay to win, then I'm out.

---

Originally by: Torothanax

---

Edited by: Torothanax on 26/06/2011 20:45:34

Originally by: Olvel

---

Players insisting on a promise that non-vanity items will never, ever appear on the NEX would be equally idiotic.

---

Um not really. Unless CCP is seriously mismanaging thier income, they make PLENTY off of the subscription system they've used until now. I'd say most of the long term EVE players hate anything to do with MT's. It goes against everything Eve has ever been. That said, I also think most players don't have that much issue with "shiny" and "for looks" being charged for if it's done in a reasonable manner.

Not vanity items is a deal breaker for a very large chunk of their long term players though.

---

Originally by: Lord Fuxaton

---

The more money eve makes, the more that goes into development, the faster we'll be landing our ships on the surface of a planet; getting out, and building a colony.

---

Originally by: lethal61

---

To all those quitting please send your stuff to me via an ingame contract please

---

Originally by: Ayieka

---

jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01
I agree with the outcome, though not the reasons the op has stated.

The damage has already been done, doubtful that ccp walks away with any credibility after this, as perception is reality.

I would like to believe the csm meeting will have a positive impact, but it is most likely too little too late.
Media has already hammered ccp reputation and continues to do so. Many players have already stated open distrust of ccp, this compounded by the lack an official response, has damaged ccp even further.

I see this ending in one of a few ways.

1. eve loses enough subscribers, they have no recourse but to make mt of the bad kind part of eve, in an attempt to stay profitable.

2. Pride gets the better of ccp, they decide to stay course as it were, ensuring an exodus of older players in hopes of attracting new players. a huge, HUGE, gamble at best.

3. Ccp decides to cut its losses and sells the rights to another developer or competitor, even this does not garuntee eve's existence as an mmo. many times when a game developer sells to another, the buying party buys the rights to the code. That has ensured many games never see the light of day again, be it in the form of a sequel or a remake, because the new owner can charge whatever they want for licensing, royalties and what not.

4. If somehow ccp survives this, they fix whats wrong, actually talk to the playerbase, and certain someone issues an apology, eve still exist possibly better than it was. This given the history is the least likely to happen.

I hope im wrong and outcome #4 happens, but until proven otherwise, I stand by what i said.

---

The first 3 of your points hinge on the idea that enough people will leave to impact CCP's bottom line. That's our primary disagreement. My opinion is that it won't happen.
But I have no hard data on the total number os subs CCP has at the moment, so I can't say for sure.
If the unsub number is high enough to make CCP worry, things will probably change. If it's not, things probably won't.

My bet at the moment is that the number isn't high enough.

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: LIOZTH

---

Edited by: LIOZTH on 26/06/2011 21:18:10

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

If there is a major problem with NEX, it's that watching the train wreck of rage-quitters claim to quit without actually quitting on the forums is actually more entertaining than playing EVE at the moment.

---

I have 4 unsubbed accounts, with time still left on them, time I'll use to my advantage and make my point as needed. If they don't make changes they will stay as they are. At some point EvE will start it's violent subscription downward spira, and begin heading toward the MMO graveyard.

---

You and I disagree. I don't think eve is headed to the graveyard. I think that the number of unsubs are an irrelevant drop in the bucket compared to the total subscriber base.

Essentially, I think you and your 4 accounts are irrelevant to CCP. You should probably start accepting that.

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01
I agree with the outcome, though not the reasons the op has stated.

The damage has already been done, doubtful that ccp walks away with any credibility after this, as perception is reality.

I would like to believe the csm meeting will have a positive impact, but it is most likely too little too late.
Media has already hammered ccp reputation and continues to do so. Many players have already stated open distrust of ccp, this compounded by the lack an official response, has damaged ccp even further.

I see this ending in one of a few ways.

1. eve loses enough subscribers, they have no recourse but to make mt of the bad kind part of eve, in an attempt to stay profitable.

2. Pride gets the better of ccp, they decide to stay course as it were, ensuring an exodus of older players in hopes of attracting new players. a huge, HUGE, gamble at best.

3. Ccp decides to cut its losses and sells the rights to another developer or competitor, even this does not garuntee eve's existence as an mmo. many times when a game developer sells to another, the buying party buys the rights to the code. That has ensured many games never see the light of day again, be it in the form of a sequel or a remake, because the new owner can charge whatever they want for licensing, royalties and what not.

4. If somehow ccp survives this, they fix whats wrong, actually talk to the playerbase, and certain someone issues an apology, eve still exist possibly better than it was. This given the history is the least likely to happen.

I hope im wrong and outcome #4 happens, but until proven otherwise, I stand by what i said.

---

The first 3 of your points hinge on the idea that enough people will leave to impact CCP's bottom line. That's our primary disagreement. My opinion is that it won't happen.
But I have no hard data on the total number os subs CCP has at the moment, so I can't say for sure.
If the unsub number is high enough to make CCP worry, things will probably change. If it's not, things probably won't.

My bet at the moment is that the number isn't high enough.

---

current number of unsubscribed 4484
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AtUHbyNk0JSGdHR1TDhrRVhhQTUzLUMyVTNZdjJUaHc&output=html

As for where we disagree on this matter, how many people are largely undecided on this matter or who are going to quit and simply did not see fit to resort the methods of rioting and riotposting. Your points hinge on the majority of players staying. 4000+ people canceling subscriptions at this point in time is worrying to ccp. Dust514 still needs money to be developed, World of Darkness needs money to be developed. Bad press discourages new people who might have otherwise tried and become regular subscribers. No new players means no growth, no growth means people get bored and leave. This has happened to other mmos. Some are banking on ccp to somehow come out of this intact. I just do not see that happening.

---

Originally by: Bardan Asoto

---

How the hell can customers "abuse" something we pay for?

If a marketplace usually sells a lot of apples, but people all of a sudden demand oranges, the marketplace suppliers will switch or lose money. Did the people in that case "abuse" the marketplace?

---

Originally by: Kayrl Bheskagor

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01
.

---

Every MMO I've every played always had cries of rage-quits when something came down the pipe they didn't like. It was seemingly always talk, because the games survived many such episodes and the online numbers never plummeted as predicted by the "inmates who run the asylum", or so they like to think.

The other thing that the rage-blind people don't see, is that for any that leave, it is also possible that p2w items that are independent of sp might actually encourage new players to join. Why? Because there is no way to catch up to players in ships or skills in such a time dependent game. Whether any of the current players agree or not, game after game, always, inevitably, takes items that older players had to grind for, and makes them available to new players at a fraction of the cost and effort. At the point that there is one too many easy-mode updates, that's the straw that breaks the vet players' backs and takes away their sense of accomplishment in the game. Eve has a long way to go, I think, before the game-breaking updates add up to that point, and this new proposal is far from a game breaker.

It's funny how people talk about how CCP gets so trashed in the news, and Eve will suffer the consequences. Eve is insignificant in the gaming community. There are thousands of games that no one even has ever heard of that has a larger player base than Eve will likely ever have. Eve and CCP are very small fish in a really big MMO ocean. They do some cool ****, but in the end, Eve and CCP and what Eve's players do, really doesn't count for much of anything outside the Eve community. Apparently, people have an inflated sense of their import because they are an "out of the box" MMO player??

---

My view is based from the mmos that I played that suffered the same kind of negative media from something that stemmed from ingame. They are either dead or dying

Dark age of camelot: dead/undead
Ultima online: undead
anarchy online: dying
Age of conan: last time i checked, dead
warhammer online: dying
city of heroes: dying
city of villains: dying
final fantasy online: the FFO community debates this but since the number of players has since greatly fallen from its release, dying
ace online aka space cowboys: dying
vendetta online: when i played the population was not that high and was in decline possibly dying


thats just a few of the mmos that I played. I base my comments on that because most of those games may have had an initial ad campaign but were relatively small, just like eve was when it started. I hope I am wrong and eve does not die, but until proven otherwise, no reason for me to change my stance on this.

Originally by: Kayrl Bheskagor

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Originally by: Tron Flux

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01

---

So, that's a list of people that SAID they were going to quit. Like lots of talk, that doesn't mean they did anything other than join the righteous indignation club. So how many actually DID quit?

---

Your right thats what they said. whether actually quit, well we have anywhere from a few days to a month to find out wether they actually quit. That is not the number that concerns me. The number that concerns me is how many people simply canceled subscriptions but did not see fit to go crazy on the forums or ingame. but lets go back to that 4000 +

ccp is not blizzard, they do not have a ridiculous player population, they do not have successful stand alone games to fall back on, they do not have the massive ad monkey army. Blizzard can afford to loose 4000+ players and negative press because there are hordes of people who would still play blizzard games. CCP? in the middle of trying to develop dust, wod and whatever other future plans they had for eve at this point in time? Can't.

Originally by: Kayrl Bheskagor

---

Like every other game developer with a forum, people who post are the vocal minority.There are a lot of statistics and metrics that can be gleaned from log files that paint a considerably larger and more accurate picture of the game reality than a handful (compared to the total player base) of people protesting in a trade hub or crying on a forum.

---

Originally by: Telven Stareal

---

next post

---

Originally by: Kayrl Bheskagor

---

It's funny how people talk about how CCP gets so trashed in the news, and Eve will suffer the consequences. Eve is insignificant in the gaming community. There are thousands of games that no one even has ever heard of that has a larger player base than Eve will likely ever have. Eve and CCP are very small fish in a really big MMO ocean. They do some cool ****, but in the end, Eve and CCP and what Eve's players do, really doesn't count for much of anything outside the Eve community. Apparently, people have an inflated sense of their import because they are an "out of the box" MMO player??

---

Originally by: Telven Stareal

---

Originally by: Kayrl Bheskagor

---

It's funny how people talk about how CCP gets so trashed in the news, and Eve will suffer the consequences. Eve is insignificant in the gaming community. There are thousands of games that no one even has ever heard of that has a larger player base than Eve will likely ever have. Eve and CCP are very small fish in a really big MMO ocean. They do some cool ****, but in the end, Eve and CCP and what Eve's players do, really doesn't count for much of anything outside the Eve community. Apparently, people have an inflated sense of their import because they are an "out of the box" MMO player??

---

First let me say, sorry, I donÆt want you to think I am singling you out nor targeting you. But what your posting creates an urge to reply back ;)

You state every MMO you have ever played always had cries of rage-quits. I can say IÆve seen my share as well. But never to this extent.

You also state that the players of EVE must feel like they have an inflated sense of importance because they play an outside the box MMO? Because what happens in EVE and the EVE community doesnÆt go anywhere?

I beg to differ. Please review the following Site which took me all of 2 minutes to find. DonÆt get me wrong, IÆm not saying that ôeveryoneö is staring at EVE. Only that this isnÆt an overlooked game by the media.

http://www.pcgamer.com/?s=eve+incarna

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

Originally by: Telven Stareal

---

Originally by: Kayrl Bheskagor

---

It's funny how people talk about how CCP gets so trashed in the news, and Eve will suffer the consequences. Eve is insignificant in the gaming community. There are thousands of games that no one even has ever heard of that has a larger player base than Eve will likely ever have. Eve and CCP are very small fish in a really big MMO ocean. They do some cool ****, but in the end, Eve and CCP and what Eve's players do, really doesn't count for much of anything outside the Eve community. Apparently, people have an inflated sense of their import because they are an "out of the box" MMO player??

---

First let me say, sorry, I donÆt want you to think I am singling you out nor targeting you. But what your posting creates an urge to reply back ;)

You state every MMO you have ever played always had cries of rage-quits. I can say IÆve seen my share as well. But never to this extent.

You also state that the players of EVE must feel like they have an inflated sense of importance because they play an outside the box MMO? Because what happens in EVE and the EVE community doesnÆt go anywhere?

I beg to differ. Please review the following Site which took me all of 2 minutes to find. DonÆt get me wrong, IÆm not saying that ôeveryoneö is staring at EVE. Only that this isnÆt an overlooked game by the media.

http://www.pcgamer.com/?s=eve+incarna

---

link is not working but i get the gist of it, its not hard to google words eve, riot, incarna.

---

Originally by: Lonox

---

Originally by: kestrael nanahara

---

There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.

---

You're stomping your little foot and threatening to leave if "teh ebil" CCP doesn't meet your childish and unrealistic demands. Even more hilarious? When you realised noone cares and started your emo rage asshat campaign. Funnier still? When you all come groveling back.

It will be awesome!

---

Originally by: the plague

---

Edited by: the plague on 26/06/2011 20:35:51

Originally by: Don Maddox

---

I'm not sure why people are surprised by any of this or would even think of calling for protesters to be banned. This is EXACTLY the way CCP has encouraged players to deal with each other in the game for years. EVE not only encourages players to band together and grief other players using the most destructive, onerous, and frustrating tactics possible, it practically forces players to operate in that fashion because nothing else works! In many subtle (and some not-so-subtle) ways, the devs have created an environment where banding together and imposing your will by whatever means necessary is the intuitive and instinctive way to play this game. It should surprise absolutely no one that the EVE community has now evolved (or mutated) into a state where we treat the developers in exactly the same fashion as they encourage us to treat each other.

You reap what you sow. And CCP has created a Frankenstein monster that will no longer blindly do as commanded. CCP talks a lot about bravery and creating new virtual worlds where players truly control their own destiny's. Well, CCP's response to this crisis is going to speak volumes about who they really are as a game company. And it will also reveal whether they really believe any of that fancy talk or whether it really is all just about the bucks.

So far the signs are not encouraging. CCP has demonstrated a remarkable degree of incompetence in dealing with their own game and the player community over the past 24 months. There's very little reason to believe they're capable or willing to stop and actually listen. They often hear what we say, but they don't listen.

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?101089-Leaked-internal-CCP-documents-reveal-EVE-s-new-focus-on-f2p-and-microtransactions/page2

---

Pretty much.

---

Originally by: Jacoba Stalker

---

Inmates running the asylum?

Gotta clue for you; PAYING CUSTOMERS run this business, and if CCP wants to assert their authority (which is well within their power and right to do), then the customers that do not wish to follow along blindly to the showers, can and will assert THEIR authority and vote them out of business by taking their money (i.e. the fuel that runs CCP) and put it in another gas tank.

All the while departing the scene with a single finger salute.

---

Originally by: Kara Liselle

---

Edited by: Kara Liselle on 27/06/2011 06:11:51
He`s trolling, people. He loves this.

---

Originally by: Jacoba Stalker

---

Inmates running the asylum?

Gotta clue for you; PAYING CUSTOMERS run this business, and if CCP wants to assert their authority (which is well within their power and right to do), then the customers that do not wish to follow along blindly to the showers, can and will assert THEIR authority and vote them out of business by taking their money (i.e. the fuel that runs CCP) and put it in another gas tank.

All the while departing the scene with a single finger salute.

---

Originally by: Eleena Wolf

---

My view is based from the mmos that I played that suffered the same kind of negative media from something that stemmed from ingame. They are either dead or dying

Dark age of camelot: dead/undead

---