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Edsel Ford
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Posted - 2011.06.29 22:36:00 -
[1]
Are there BPOs for every T2 item in the game? Or have some items been introduced that can be produced with only an invented T2 BPC?
Edsel
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Llambda
Space Llama Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.29 22:41:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Llambda on 29/06/2011 22:43:34 There are some newer items that are invention only.
Black ops, Marauders, Hictors, and jump freighters come to mind. I'm not sure about modules. Salvagers, maybe?
Oh, and rigs. All rigs.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.30 00:36:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Akita T on 30/06/2011 00:39:48
Originally by: Llambda There are some newer items that are invention only. Black ops, Marauders, Hictors, and jump freighters come to mind. I'm not sure about modules. Salvagers, maybe? Oh, and rigs. All rigs.
Salvagers, Analyzers and Codebreakers. Also EAFrigates, WCSs, SPRs, nanos, iStabs and a few others I don't recall right now.
P.S. Basically everything T2 introduced after invention came around (i.e. since November 29, 2006). _
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Gunther Gabel
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.07.01 18:20:00 -
[4]
ECM Modules
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Jamaican Herbsman
I Love You Mary Jane
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Posted - 2011.07.02 09:13:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 30/06/2011 00:39:48
Originally by: Llambda There are some newer items that are invention only. Black ops, Marauders, Hictors, and jump freighters come to mind. I'm not sure about modules. Salvagers, maybe? Oh, and rigs. All rigs.
Salvagers, Analyzers and Codebreakers. Also EAFrigates, WCSs, SPRs, nanos, iStabs and a few others I don't recall right now.
P.S. Basically everything T2 introduced after invention came around (i.e. since November 29, 2006).
Damage control 2 maybe?
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Joan Avon
Amarr We See Dead People Chaos Theory Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.02 18:14:00 -
[6]
While probably not possible it would be interesting to know how many of the T2 BPO's are still currently in at least some what active use and manufacturing. As well as how many are lost to the void of unsubs, destruciton, or trophy cases.
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Franny
Mentis Seorsum
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Posted - 2011.07.03 06:05:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Franny on 03/07/2011 06:05:10
Originally by: Joan Avon While probably not possible it would be interesting to know how many of the T2 BPO's are still currently in at least some what active use and manufacturing. As well as how many are lost to the void of unsubs, destruciton, or trophy cases.
mine is idle, tho I just resubbed after a yr off for personal issues(working full time + school + kids = divorce) was hoping to get it off and running this past week, but had to make an emergency trip(and have another one coming up end of the week)
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.03 12:39:00 -
[8]
Sentry Drones
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Susung
Hydra Resources D-Collective
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Posted - 2011.07.04 22:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Joan Avon While probably not possible it would be interesting to know how many of the T2 BPO's are still currently in at least some what active use and manufacturing. As well as how many are lost to the void of unsubs, destruciton, or trophy cases.
The effect of t2 bpo's on the market is practically negligible. production/copy speed are too low to keep up with demand on tne small stuff like ammo and drones that have a lot of different bpo's out there. And there just aren't enough out there on the big ticket items like ships.
I have invented everything, and have made more on high volume stuff like ammo and certain modules than on the invention only stuff.
The real enemy of inventors is the math deficient
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.07.04 22:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Susung
I have invented everything, and have made more on high volume stuff like ammo and certain modules than on the invention only stuff.
This TBH. There is usually more profit to be made on items WITH a T2 BPO than items without one. It comes down to dumbasses thinking the datacores they get from agents are free.
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Dealth Striker
Caldari Striker Ltd
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Posted - 2011.07.05 03:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Susung
I have invented everything, and have made more on high volume stuff like ammo and certain modules than on the invention only stuff.
This TBH. There is usually more profit to be made on items WITH a T2 BPO than items without one. It comes down to dumbasses thinking the datacores they get from agents are free.
I get my datacores by trading in rp that acquires even when I am not online - do not know how you are getting yours but I would recommend doing this. ---------------------
Communication is Key! |
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
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Posted - 2011.07.05 05:20:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Llambda on 05/07/2011 05:20:19
Originally by: Dealth Striker
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Susung
I have invented everything, and have made more on high volume stuff like ammo and certain modules than on the invention only stuff.
This TBH. There is usually more profit to be made on items WITH a T2 BPO than items without one. It comes down to dumbasses thinking the datacores they get from agents are free.
I get my datacores by trading in rp that acquires even when I am not online - do not know how you are getting yours but I would recommend doing this.
Sounds like you're the type of dumbass they were talking about.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.05 06:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dealth Striker I get my datacores by trading in rp that acquires even when I am not online - do not know how you are getting yours but I would recommend doing this.
So if you would sell one such datacore you obtained "for free" to a buy order on the market and got 200k ISK for it, how much is the datacore worth to you, 200k ISK, 100k ISK or ZERO ISK ? Because you somehow make it sound as if you think it's worth zero ISK.
Hint : "Got it for free" does not mean "it's worthless", nor does it mean "it's worth less than I could get for it". _
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Dealth Striker
Caldari Striker Ltd
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Posted - 2011.07.05 07:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Dealth Striker I get my datacores by trading in rp that acquires even when I am not online - do not know how you are getting yours but I would recommend doing this.
So if you would sell one such datacore you obtained "for free" to a buy order on the market and got 200k ISK for it, how much is the datacore worth to you, 200k ISK, 100k ISK or ZERO ISK ? Because you somehow make it sound as if you think it's worth zero ISK.
Hint : "Got it for free" does not mean "it's worthless", nor does it mean "it's worth less than I could get for it".
The datacore has value. That value is what I determine based on the what I do with the datacore and for what reason(s) I do it. Everyone will make their own determination based on what they think the value should be and as such, will try to "tell"/"convince" others that their value is the one that should be used.
In answer to your scenario - it depends on the circumstances for me selling it for 200k ISK. If you provide me with parameters I could give you a better answer. Did I need the ISK right away, was I helping out the buyer, was I quitting and just wanted to sell my stuff, etc.? ---------------------
Communication is Key! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.05 10:02:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/07/2011 10:04:18
Originally by: Dealth Striker The datacore has value. That value is what I determine based on the what I do with the datacore and for what reason(s) I do it.
WRONG. The value is always the same at a certain point in time in a certain location. There might be discounts or penalties for either buying or selling, or for being in a hurry, but the VALUE is always the same.
Quote: Everyone will make their own determination based on what they think the value should be and as such, will try to "tell"/"convince" others that their value is the one that should be used. In answer to your scenario - it depends on the circumstances for me selling it for 200k ISK. If you provide me with parameters I could give you a better answer. Did I need the ISK right away, was I helping out the buyer, was I quitting and just wanted to sell my stuff, etc.?
That's not "value", that's "price you're willing to accept". Not even nearly the same thing.
Yes, you might be willing to accept a lower value because you're in a hurry, but that doesn't change the item's worth. Sure, you could ask for more than an item's worth, but you might be forced to wait a long time before somebody desperate enough will buy it, but that doesn't change the item's worth either.
If I give you a datacore you can sell for 200k ISK at no charge and no obligation in a place that both buys and sells the item at roughly that price, it's almost the same as giving you 200k ISK instead. If I give somebody 200k ISK, and tell him "pay me back 100k right now", it is exactly the same thing as selling the item worth 200k for 100k ISK in that particular above-mentioned location... which is basically "giving somebody 100k ISK". _
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clixor
Celluloid Gurus
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Posted - 2011.07.05 10:52:00 -
[16]
It doesn't matter where you get the DC from, ALWAYS include it in your cost calculations.
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Zircalla
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Posted - 2011.07.05 17:25:00 -
[17]
Just curious, in my spreadsheets I have a toggle that switches datacore value (and many other values) to match the highest buy, lowest sell, or average of the orders in Jita. I usually use set it to match the highest buy order, since I would typically sell to the highest buy in Jita if I was going to sell (I am not there enough to worry about playing with market in Jita). What does everyone else base their value on? I am thinking it is not worthwhile to spend too much time on it, since I am not inclined (nor does it seem profitable) to fly all over the universe to find a better deal. I do occasionally buy all the low 'sell' orders in my system and haul them to Jita to help fill out a load
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Dealth Striker
Caldari Striker Ltd
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Posted - 2011.07.05 17:27:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dealth Striker on 05/07/2011 17:28:18 Akita T
Sorry, the value is not always the same. I believe you are only thinking in terms of ISK. There can be other addons/subtractions to the value of the datacore that may or may not entail ISK. Goodwill, griefing the competition, making associates that might benefit you in the future, making enemies that might wardec you, etc.
Some of us play this game for the enjoyment of doing whatever we want to do in it. Of course, others might not agree but we all should agree upon letting one choose how they play it. We can help others by imparting our experience, knowledge, and opinion but I believe we should not namecall, belittle, chastise, etc. someone for deciding to choose a different path. ---------------------
Communication is Key! |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.07.05 17:53:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 05/07/2011 17:53:45
Originally by: Dealth Striker Sorry, the value is not always the same. I believe you are only thinking in terms of ISK.
You really need to read Akita T's post again.
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Sub Prime
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Posted - 2011.07.05 17:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Llambda Edited by: Llambda on 29/06/2011 22:43:34 There are some newer items that are invention only.
Black ops, Marauders, Hictors, and jump freighters come to mind. I'm not sure about modules. Salvagers, maybe?
Oh, and rigs. All rigs.
Mag site drop T2 rig BPC's are better than invented BPC's as their ME level is higher.
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Dealth Striker
Caldari Striker Ltd
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Posted - 2011.07.05 18:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 05/07/2011 18:02:35
Originally by: Dealth Striker Sorry, the value is not always the same. I believe you are only thinking in terms of ISK.
You really need to read Akita T's post again.
I read it numerous times before posting and felt that Akita was interchanging value and worth and that they were all in terms of ISK.
Originally by: Tau Cabalander The market determines ISK value. You can influence that, but unless you control the market you do not alone determine the ISK value.
I agree with this statement
Originally by: Tau Cabalander You always determine what value you are willing to accept, whether that is ISK, or goodwill, a favour, etc.
I agree Originally by: Tau Cabalander You can choose to accept less ISK than market value, perhaps 0 ISK in trade for goodwill (technically you just bought goodwill with ISK even though none changed hands), but that doesn't mean the item is worth less. You may also choose to only accept more ISK than market value, but that doesn't mean the item is worth more.
Sorry I disagree with you here. Maybe this event that happened to me about a year ago in this game, might convey what I am trying to say a little better. I was mining, and a player came into the asteriod belt. I normally scoop and salvage the rat wrecks that attack me while I am mining. However, I looked at this player's profile and saw that he was only a month or 2 old. So I decided to abandoned the wrecks so that they could have them if they wanted. The player scooped up the loot and salvaged the wrecks. Later on during the mining, I receive an email from someone who said that this was their main and that the toon I let have the rat wrecks was their alt. They thanked me and we later became friends in the game.
So the items I gave up to that player had a initial value to me prior to giving them up and after had a different value to me after receiving the email and even a different value after we became friends.
So to me, those items' value is way more than their ISK value on the market. ---------------------
Communication is Key! |
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
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Posted - 2011.07.05 19:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sub Prime
Originally by: Llambda Edited by: Llambda on 29/06/2011 22:43:34 There are some newer items that are invention only.
Black ops, Marauders, Hictors, and jump freighters come to mind. I'm not sure about modules. Salvagers, maybe?
Oh, and rigs. All rigs.
Mag site drop T2 rig BPC's are better than invented BPC's as their ME level is higher.
And that's great for a hobbyist manufacturer, but once you go pro you will never keep yourself in BPCs that way.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.07.05 19:42:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 05/07/2011 19:43:22
Originally by: Dealth Striker So the items I gave up to that player had a initial value to me prior to giving them up and after had a different value to me after receiving the email and even a different value after we became friends.
So to me, those items' value is way more than their ISK value on the market.
Bolded for emphasis.
You could have kept the salvage and given the person ISK. You may have even gotten the same amount of goodwill in exchange.
You didn't change the market value of the salvage. The other person can sell it for what you could (or more, or less).
I'm not saying it is wrong to do that. I'm saying that you did not change the market value of the salvage.
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Dealth Striker
Caldari Striker Ltd
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Posted - 2011.07.05 20:16:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander I'm not saying it is wrong to do that. I'm saying that you did not change the market value of the salvage.
I might have. If the items were sold as is in the "market" then probably not. If the items were reprocessed, destroyed, put into storage, used in manufacturing, then there is a potential for the market value of the salvage to change.
I believe that "market" value is only part of the equation for the value of an item in the game. ---------------------
Communication is Key! |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
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Posted - 2011.07.06 04:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dealth Striker I get my datacores by trading in rp that acquires even when I am not online - do not know how you are getting yours but I would recommend doing this.
\o/ The minerals I mine are FREE!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.06 05:29:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Dealth Striker I believe that "market" value is only part of the equation for the value of an item in the game.
Market value is the only objective value you can possibly have for an item. What you CHOOSE to do with it might provide additional advantages, but that's highly subjective and circumstantial.
In context, we were talking about datacores used in invention for a profit, and how they should be valued whether purchased or obtained from agents in exchange for RP. Even if you might have objections over pretty specific hypothetical uplifting story circumstances, you should have absolutely no objections over the fact that in that particular situation, talking about anything other than market value would be pointless.
_
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Weld Things
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Posted - 2011.07.06 06:33:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Weld Things on 06/07/2011 06:33:41 I used to manufacture all the goodies i needed for PvP. I accumulated lots of stuff and pos' and SP.
Then I realised it cost me more to build the items than buy them off the market and I only maximised my isk return when there were big price fluctuations in my local market.
Now I just buy everything from the massive queue of "my minerals, data cores and time are free" muppets in Jita and get cheapest PvP gear, and make more isk from trading that stuff.
Keep playing guys, keep playing hard and do all the work for me :)
o/
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Dealth Striker
Caldari Striker Ltd
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Posted - 2011.07.06 07:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Akita T Market value is the only objective value you can possibly have for an item.
By the definition of the word "objective" it would have to be Market value.
Originally by: Akita T In context, we were talking about datacores used in invention for a profit, and how they should be valued whether purchased or obtained from agents in exchange for RP. Even if you might have objections over pretty specific hypothetical uplifting story circumstances, you should have absolutely no objections over the fact that in that particular situation, talking about anything other than market value would be pointless.
Now that you have given parameters, I agree. ---------------------
Communication is Key! |
Ahaz Darkfall
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Posted - 2011.07.06 19:22:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dealth Striker
The datacore has value. That value is what I determine based on the what I do with the datacore and for what reason(s) I do it. Everyone will make their own determination based on what they think the value should be and as such, will try to "tell"/"convince" others that their value is the one that should be used.
In answer to your scenario - it depends on the circumstances for me selling it for 200k ISK. If you provide me with parameters I could give you a better answer. Did I need the ISK right away, was I helping out the buyer, was I quitting and just wanted to sell my stuff, etc.?
Sorry but you are 100% wrong on this.
The value of the data core has nothing to do with what you do with it. The value is what you could get if you sold it, instead of used it in your own invention. It does not matter how you got it, or what you use it for. it has a set market value. That value may fluctuate with the market, but is the same for everyone. You say you could sell it for 200k or keep it and make a profit.
The problem is if you consider it with a value of 0 and make less than 200 isk profit from your end product you are in fact losing money. When deciding what to sell end products for you have to consider all components consumed at market value no matter what you paid for them. If what you sell the end product for is less than the market value of the consumables then, regardless of whether you made a profit getting some stuff for less than market value, or produced them yourself, you would have made more just selling the consumables, higher income and less work/time invested.
Far to many products in this game are selling for less than the market value of the consumables required to make them.
If you choose to ignore the market value of the data cores and other consumables you use to make your self believe you profits are higher, then you are only fooling yourself. True if you did not pay for some stuff, then you did technically make a profit. But you could have made way more just selling the raw materials. So you effectively lost that profit.
Lets consider another example to really get the point across. If you have a POS in high sec, and you mine ice and do PI enough to cover all the fuel, is that POS free to run? No it is not. True it does not cost you anything for the fuel, but the fuel has a market value. I planed on doing this myself. but to truly maximize your income you must consider the market value of the stuff you get that you didn't pay for.
For example; If I set up a POS and made all the fuel myself and mined ICE so I did not have to buy anything for it once I had the modules, and I made say 800 mil per month profit off what I was using the POS for after deducting my expenses, considering the POS fuel was "FREE". But the POS fuel is not free, even though I did not pay for it, I could have sold that POS fuel for 900 mil. 100 mil more than my profits from the POS. That means that for all the time and work I put into what ever I used the POS for was wasted, as I would have made 100 mil more by just selling the fuel and not even having the POS. Not to mention the money made from using that time for other things such as mission running or even mining.
I have run the numbers many times in the last few months trying to discover how other players could possibly be making money doing this. But in every scenario I have tried I can make significantly more money selling the POS fuel and raw materials in Jita than I could ever make using them to run my own POS for any purpose other than research.
Even using the POS for research requires at least 9 active characters(at least 3 accounts with all three characters on each trained for research) to keep the labs full 23/7 and actually turn a slight margin higher than I would have made just selling the Fuel, data cores, etc. to the market. It is a lot of work for only a slightly higher return than the no work alternative.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.06 20:02:00 -
[30]
@Ahaz Darkfall, just to correct two things: * all that stuff can be considered "free" (after a fashion), but the thing it can not be considered is "worthless" (or "worth less") ; whether it was free (as in gratis) is of no consequence * the guy you quote has just clarified his position, and while in general the position is debatable, given the specifics he completely agrees _
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