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WlliamRyker
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:09:00 -
[1]
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
The paradigm that common minerals = highsec and rare minerals in null is ******ed. This just means the bulk of everything in the game is produced by the vastly overabundant and overpopulated nullsec, with specialty items and minerals being exported to jita. This encourages highsec (non)play, which has been shown by the players as a problem since eve has started
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Raellah
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:11:00 -
[2]
You do realise that if the market were dependent on nullsec for goods and minerals then everything would cost at least 5x as much?
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Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:13:00 -
[3]
I'm sure that your cap fleet would still be very nice, even if the insane prices meant it was a mere tenth of its current size and almost impossible to replace.
Additionally, clarity is your friend. Your post does not include any friends.
 Originally by: anonymous
WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
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WlliamRyker
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:14:00 -
[4]
That makes no sense, we have more or less normally priced ships already in nullsec
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Viking Sven
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:14:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Raellah
You do realise that if the market were dependent on nullsec for goods and minerals then everything would cost at least 5x as much?
This makes no sense. There's open market competition in null, just the same as empire.
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OverlordY
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:15:00 -
[6]
Why is empire dependant on ******ed null sec. A region of space should not need other regions to be self sufficent.
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StillBorn CrackBaby
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:16:00 -
[7]
Another brain dead idiot. People can play how ever they damn well want to play. No one has to answer to you a "real player of EVE", lol what a joke. There are more people in Empire than there ever will be in null, you nub...
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WlliamRyker
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:16:00 -
[8]
Because empire is basically 100% safe and nobody would have to leave, you ******
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Alpine 69
Rubbish Superheroes
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:17:00 -
[9]
Alright then, start mining veld in nullsec and build us some stuff.
On another note, if we have to stop supplying you with stuff, can we have your sanctums? ...since you'll be too busy mining veld anyway.
Founder of the SongsforstuffÖ initiative. Will write and sing songs for stuff. |
Koragoni SkyKnight
Amarr
Completely Bored Senseless
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Discrodia
I'm sure that your cap fleet would still be very nice, even if the insane prices meant it was a mere tenth of its current size and almost impossible to replace.
Additionally, clarity is your friend. Your post does not include any friends.
You say this as if that would be a bad thing?
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OverlordY
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:17:00 -
[11]
Just a noob OP that thinks we should play the game the way HE DOES... lol fail
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Ripley Nostromo
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
Because empire is basically 100% safe and nobody would have to leave, you ******
Nullsec is 100% safe? Stupid fewl, not even close. Reetard...
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Viking Sven
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby
AThere are more people in Empire than there ever will be in null, you nub...
That's precisely the point of the thread... there's no reason to live in null; everything you need you could get at Jita, but null needs massive amounts of trit (since nobody bothers to go veld hunting in null) for ship construction.
It's one of the many problems we've been told CCP is 'working on'. Null sec really is ****ed right now, there's no denying that.
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Zin Zy
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:19:00 -
[14]
In what way is null-sec dependent on high-sec?
The only reason I can see, is lazyness. To be honest, this is only what I've heard and read on the forums, but null-sec miners won't mind veld. They prefer to mine high value ore, sell it in jita and buy low end minerals.
If you look at the distribution, high-sec is very dependent on null-sec as the source of high-end minerals (killed a lot by rogue drones in lvl4 and refined loot). Null-sec on the other hand, has access to every kind of ore and do not need to trade anything with high-sec. IF null-sec miners would spend the time minind the low value ores that is.
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Alpine 69
Rubbish Superheroes
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:19:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ripley Nostromo
Originally by: WlliamRyker
Because empire is basically 100% safe and nobody would have to leave, you ******
Nullsec is 100% safe? Stupid fewl, not even close. Reetard...
Boy do I hope that you're trolling. 
Founder of the SongsforstuffÖ initiative. Will write and sing songs for stuff. |
Vaya DeLopasz
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:20:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Vaya DeLopasz on 30/06/2011 14:23:53
ah. club syndrome.
1. state: not in the club.
statement: make it easier to get into the club.
2. state: in the club.
statement: make it harder to get into the club.
After your logic, cities and secure civilisations make no sense.
As soon as lowsec starts to secure their systems from pirates and advertises to create a 0sec tradehub, creating diplomatic ties to other alliances and ensuring safe trading, it would work. But it does not.
But in the current state of eve, this is not how it is done. So yes. Jita is the trading hub. Because its secure*. Because its civilized**.
We do not want to go to trade in the wild west.
Nothing hinders somebody to actually try to create a tradehub anywhere else. Even in 0 sec.
*) i know its not always secure
**) i know civilized does not mean its nicer.
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Alpine 69
Rubbish Superheroes
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:23:00 -
[17]
For the old players, remember the ISS EC-P8R public trading outpost?
Open that one up again if you want a change, but you lads are too greedy to do that and too lazy to mine your own low-ends. (Though this might be an overly simplistic view of reality.)
Founder of the SongsforstuffÖ initiative. Will write and sing songs for stuff. |
Koragoni SkyKnight
Amarr
Completely Bored Senseless
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:24:00 -
[18]
I've lived in Venal, Stain, and Eso for considerable lengths of time in my EVE career.
I wouldn't call them "optimal" but there was no shortage of raw materials to build crap with if I wanted to jump out a few BPCs. So I'm not sure what you're getting at?
Empire will always be a better market than null sec. Why? Economics! If you can do the something with less risk, you'll go that route. It takes billions of isk invested just to get a tower online to do some t2 component construction so you can build a few t2 cruisers. T3 is even more insane. Defending a large tower from a BS blob in HS is infinitely easier than doing the same from a dread/sc blob in low/null sec.
Besides, all of EVE buys in Jita. It's hard not to sell in the Walmart of the EVE universe.
When you add to it all that null sec consumers are unwilling to pay more than a jita price for something the final piece clicks into place. Why should I take the time to even jump stuff out, if I cannot even recover my fuel costs? Much less make something for my time.
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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:24:00 -
[19]
For the same reason as empire is dependent on nullsec carebears: because interdependence makes both zones worth-while and give them both a purpose.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Drae Fokker
Caldari
Dark Nebula Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:24:00 -
[20]
STOP HAVING FUN GUYS. YOU MUST PLAY THIS GAME ACCORDING TO MY RULES. YOUR WAY IS WRONG. RAARRRGHHHHHbwaohgeogheotho
*this poster has suffered a stroke while mimicing nerdrage. Rest assured, he is getting the best care possible.*
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RiskyFrisky
Interrobang Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:25:00 -
[21]
Quit your *****ing. No one cares about you QQing about not being able to skyrocket prices.
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Simetraz
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:25:00 -
[22]
High-sec
Good for Trit, Pyerite, Mexallon
BPO's and other Tech items that a full civilization would produce.
0.0
EVERYTHING ELSE.
Moons mineral // all the other ores // PI // ICE // all can and do come from 0.0
Granted you can get some of these items from high sec but there is zero requirement too.
As it stands right now 0.0 could just about remove it self from the rest of EVE and have no issues @ all.
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Syphon Lodian
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:26:00 -
[23]
I didn't realize there was no Veldspar in null. Gee whiz, that blows.
Oh wait, yes there is. Golly gosh, I forgot, everything you need in nullsec, is actually *in* nullsec. Amazing.
Go pick up your space rocks like everyone else.
-------------------------------------------------
Go pod yourself. |
Mi'Rini Nemo
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
Because empire is basically 100% safe and nobody would have to leave, you ******
No way empire space is 100% safe!
I'd say 50% safer than null or low sec. Concord's role isn't to prevent, but to punish! Just as any alliance members would do to a neutral or a hostile pilot.
Are you sure an Eve pilot or are you trolling? |
Koragoni SkyKnight
Amarr
Completely Bored Senseless
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: RiskyFrisky
Quit your *****ing. No one cares about you QQing about not being able to skyrocket prices.
Spoken like someone who's never participated in alliance logistics.
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Simetraz
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:29:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Syphon Lodian
I didn't realize there was no Veldspar in null. Gee whiz, that blows.
Oh wait, yes there is. Golly gosh, I forgot, everything you need in nullsec, is actually *in* nullsec. Amazing.
Go pick up your space rocks like everyone else.
THe low ends are in 0.0 it is just easier to get it from high-sec.
People mine high ends in 0.0 and sell it to buy trit.
There is no requirement to do it that way it is just more efficient. |
Ripley Nostromo
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Alpine 69
Originally by: Ripley Nostromo
Originally by: WlliamRyker
Because empire is basically 100% safe and nobody would have to leave, you ******
Nullsec is 100% safe? Stupid fewl, not even close. Reetard...
Boy do I hope that you're trolling.
Not at all. I've lost count of the people I know who have been ganked in Empire, mostly at trade hubs...
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Maplestone
Myth and Peace Lords
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:38:00 -
[28]
Something I want to do isn't as profitable as something I don't want to do.
Leaving aside the dogmatic my-game-is-better-than-your-game for a moment, how does one objectively measure when it flips from being "duh, that's what supply and demand is all about" to "there's a flaw in the game design" ?
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Alpine 69
Rubbish Superheroes
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:41:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Alpine 69 on 30/06/2011 14:41:47
Originally by: Ripley Nostromo
Originally by: Alpine 69
Originally by: Ripley Nostromo
Originally by: WlliamRyker
Because empire is basically 100% safe and nobody would have to leave, you ******
Nullsec is 100% safe? Stupid fewl, not even close. Reetard...
Boy do I hope that you're trolling.
Not at all. I've lost count of the people I know who have been ganked in Empire, mostly at trade hubs...
Notice the red part in bold. Nullsec ≠ Empire.
Founder of the SongsforstuffÖ initiative. Will write and sing songs for stuff. |
Koragoni SkyKnight
Amarr
Completely Bored Senseless
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Maplestone
Something I want to do isn't as profitable as something I don't want to do.
Leaving aside the dogmatic my-game-is-better-than-your-game for a moment, how does one objectively measure when it flips from being "duh, that's what supply and demand is all about" to "there's a flaw in the game design" ?
If you can answer that question, to be honest... You've won EVE.
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:43:00 -
[31]
You realize if the common rocks were in Null Sec and the Rare rocks in High sec, then the rare rocks would be common and the common rocks would be rare.
What makes them "RARE" is that they're dangerous to get to, not the volume.
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Rayna Ravenoff
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:44:00 -
[32]
OP = Epic Fail
Move along, nothing to see here.
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Alpine 69
Rubbish Superheroes
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Bloodpetal
You realize if the common rocks were in Null Sec and the Rare rocks in High sec, then the rare rocks would be common and the common rocks would be rare.
What makes them "RARE" is that they're dangerous to get to, not the volume.
Having the construction of a battleship require 3 million units of a "rare" ore would seriously mess up the economy though.
Founder of the SongsforstuffÖ initiative. Will write and sing songs for stuff. |
Nekt
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:44:00 -
[34]
I see you have never hit a hauler spawn with 25+mil trit.
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:45:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Bloodpetal on 30/06/2011 14:46:11
Originally by: Simetraz
As it stands right now 0.0 could just about remove it self from the rest of EVE and have no issues @ all.
Right, that's why all the 0.0 Sov Wars are about 4-8B ISK a WEEK PER MOON of moon minerals that build your T2 hulls.
OP, go learn the game.
Noone cares about Veldspar anyways.
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Viking Sven
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:46:00 -
[36]
No surprise this thread is full of people who don't understand the problem at all YET INSIST ON POSTING ANYHOW.
****ing classic.
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Khamelean
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:48:00 -
[37]
Eve is a multiplayer game. Some people struggle with this concept.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:48:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Viking Sven
No surprise this thread is full of people who don't understand the problem at all YET INSIST ON POSTING ANYHOW.
****ing classic.
The problem is that the OP is an api verified carebear, *****ing about hisec.
.
Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:48:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Viking Sven
No surprise this thread is full of people who don't understand the problem at all YET INSIST ON POSTING ANYHOW.
****ing classic.
Which problem? That the OP doesn't know what he's talking about?
I think that's pretty clear.
Or do you mean the problem that High Sec doesn't actually offer that much in resources, and we should put more of the important stuff in High sec?
Maybe I'm missing something.
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:50:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Khamelean
Eve is a multiplayer game. Some people struggle with this concept.
OP ~ "But I played WOW, I know everything about Multiplayer. I used to run around and do all the low level dungeons by myself to make me feel better on my L80 cuz it makes me feel awesome. I can't wait until I can buy stuff for money from the NEX!"
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Viking Sven
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:53:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Bloodpetal
Maybe I'm missing something.
ding ding ding ding...
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OverlordY
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:55:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Viking Sven
Originally by: Bloodpetal
Maybe I'm missing something.
ding ding ding ding...
I am sure that's you're school bell calling.
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Ana Vyr
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:59:00 -
[43]
Another player who just can't accept that not everybody wants the same thing from EvE. If we had to rely on nullsec alliances to produce everything the market requires, the economy would collapse like a popped balloon. You guys stick to your litle "wars" out in 0.0 and let the rest of us handle the industry required to float the market.
So sick of players trying to shove their gameplay style down everyone's throat.
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:59:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Bloodpetal on 30/06/2011 14:59:37
Originally by: Viking Sven
Originally by: Bloodpetal
Maybe I'm missing something.
ding ding ding ding...
Lol, sarcasm.
Walked right into that.
So, you want more goodies in High Sec? Isn't that the exact opposite thing that the OP was saying?
Quote:
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
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Raellah
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:00:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Viking Sven
Originally by: Raellah
You do realise that if the market were dependent on nullsec for goods and minerals then everything would cost at least 5x as much?
This makes no sense. There's open market competition in null, just the same as empire.
If you don't understand the obvious reasons as to why having markets dependent on nullsec for ores/mins/items would end up massively increasing the cost to the buyer, then i am certainly not going to waste my time explaining it to you. 
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Dasola
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:01:00 -
[46]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
The paradigm that common minerals = highsec and rare minerals in null is ******ed. This just means the bulk of everything in the game is produced by the vastly overabundant and overpopulated nullsec, with specialty items and minerals being exported to jita. This encourages highsec (non)play, which has been shown by the players as a problem since eve has started
You know why this is? 0.0 dwellers like to pvp, they have very little interest on boring things like mining, manufacturing ships, etc... And becouse jumpfreighters make getting stuff from highsec so easy, they rather buy stuff and import it down there.
* Revolution changes worlds *
CCP, players are watching, no empty promises. |
Sililos Sanura
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:06:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Sililos Sanura on 30/06/2011 15:07:15
This comes down to exactly the same thing every pirate and PvPer in EVE wants, More people for them to gank or rob.
If people are forced to rely on Nullsec then there will be more people in Nullsec, and these pirates will be able to steal everything they want, get all the delicious tears they desire and be content as the superior overlords of the non PvP skilled 'carebears'.
I read his post as"I haven't stolen or killed anyone in days, i want slaves to farm for my stuff."
Refining modules for Minerals or mining them must be far harder than stealing them from an infinite force of traders and miners.
My advice for him:
1: Form a corp if you haven't already
2: Get some miners and either pay or force them to mine for you
3: Get some more players in your corp to make everything for you with said resources
4: Go find some people to kill and rob.
5: ??????
6: Profit!
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Uther Istavel
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:07:00 -
[48]
No, nullsec is largely ****ed because of day one players who really havent moved much since they started playing, just amassing isk and territory.
If you want nullsec to come alive again, get some new blood in there and lets have another bloody good WAR.
war is always good for an economy, need something to spend all that isk on right?
_______________________________________________
Profit isnt a reason, its an excuse. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:07:00 -
[49]
For a serious response...
The reason High Sec is so crucial is because it's the big ISK Faucet for the game. Mission running generates a high amount of ISK.
The problem doesn't lie with Rocks, it lies with ISK.
Switching Rocks around isn't going to accomplish anything.
Wherever you have the densest population will mean you will end up with the highest amount of manufacturing, trade, and market speculation that drives the economy. It only makes sense that the "Safest" place is the most reliable market hub.
People go to trade and they don't want to worry about getting shot, because if they do worry about getting shot then they have to hire guards to protect them which cuts into their bottom line.
0.0 Alliances self police their space and have intel channels to coordinate keeping people safe from roaming gangs, but they also do NBSI which restricts space and trade.
Also, Empire is "central" to the 4 corners of 0.0, meaning that it is the closest common space shared. If you really want to make Null Sec and High sec take a different tone, put Null Sec in the center of New Eden and the High Sec on the edges. That'll totally change the playing field, and now the ratio of logistics required to safety becomes a different calculation and might create a vastly different EVE to what we know today.
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Viking Sven
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:11:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Viking Sven on 30/06/2011 15:13:30
Originally by: Raellah
If you don't understand the obvious reasons as to why having markets dependent on nullsec for ores/mins/items would end up massively increasing the cost to the buyer, then i am certainly not going to waste my time explaining it to you.
That's not the intent at all. The point is to make trit easier to get in null; as an example solution CCP could increase the trit amount from refined ABC ores. You can still mine veldspar, buy it, sell it, etc. in empire just fine.
Right now, while there are less profitable ores in null, they're not worth mining. As was pointed out, it's easier to mine expensive ores, move them to empire, sell them, buy trit with said monies, and then jump the trit back to null. This has inflated the trit prices in empire and makes manufacturers in null rely on high sec carebears for their trit.
Nobody is saying 'make manufacturing of everything only occur in null'. Yes, that would increase the price of everything 5x, and it would also be stupid and useless. The point of this thread (even though OP didn't explain it for ****), was to reduce null's dependence on empire for the low end ores.
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Hyperforce99
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:14:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Hyperforce99 on 30/06/2011 15:14:47
Quote:
This is ******ed, why is nullsec dependant on empire carebears?
I believe they wrote a song to answer that question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDBIM6RnO2w&feature=fvst
---------------------------------------------
Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/
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Simetraz
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:20:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Simetraz on 30/06/2011 15:22:05
Originally by: Ana Vyr
Another player who just can't accept that not everybody wants the same thing from EvE. If we had to rely on nullsec alliances to produce everything the market requires, the economy would collapse like a popped balloon. You guys stick to your litle "wars" out in 0.0 and let the rest of us handle the industry required to float the market.
So sick of players trying to shove their gameplay style down everyone's throat.
Although valid in some fronts, a lot of 0.0 Alliances employ 0.0 industrial corps to provide the logistics and fuel there fighting machine.
The industrial corps get place in 0.0 to make money the alliance gets ships ready to go in a location of there choosing ready to kill or be killed.
An endless chain really.
Granted some 0.0 alliances get there ships from high sec others do not.
Although high-sec could take up the slack if those 0.0 Industrial's went away it is once again not very practical.
It is not uncommon to see 100 or more losses in a fleet battle.
Moving 100 BS's or BC's to 0.0 incurs a cost in time and ISK and also opens up issues of those supply lines being cut off or even the availability of that many ships at reasonable prices.
It is ALOT more efficient to build in 0.0
And in case you haven't noticed efficiency and cost is what rules 0.0
IF a PvP'r can get a ship for close to nothing or free and he can get it in a place of his/her choosing the more likely you are to see battles which feeds the whole chain.
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:24:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Bloodpetal on 30/06/2011 15:26:10
Originally by: Viking Sven
That's not the intent at all. The point is to make trit easier to get in null; as an example solution CCP could increase the trit amount from refined ABC ores. You can still mine veldspar, buy it, sell it, etc. in empire just fine.
The reason Tritanium is more abundant in High Sec is because there are simply more people there that are willing to mine (or bot) Tritanium in volume.
The only way that Null Sec could compete with Empire for common ores isn't in making Tritanium more accessible - which it pretty much is, you can hit an NPC cargo hauler in null sec that will drop about 10M Units of Tritanium/Pyerite/Mexallon with never touching a mining laser - they're pretty common - it's by changing the logistical layout of EVE
No matter what, you're going to end up with jump freighters moving boat loads of moon minerals and null mins into High Sec, and when they want to go back they're going to bring SOMETHING back - never fly empty is the traders motto.
SO, they drop some bucks on cheap easy and accessible ores and fly it back out to null sec.
As of my last opinion, I think the only way this dynamic could change is by literally inverting the high sec to null sec space so that null sec is the "Central" part of EVE and that means that high sec would consider null sec a logistical advantage, rather than a fringe space that can be easily ignored.
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Shigeru Potatomoto
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:25:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sililos Sanura
Edited by: Sililos Sanura on 30/06/2011 15:07:15
This comes down to exactly the same thing every pirate and PvPer in EVE wants, More people for them to gank or rob.
If people are forced to rely on Nullsec then there will be more people in Nullsec, and these pirates will be able to steal everything they want, get all the delicious tears they desire and be content as the superior overlords of the non PvP skilled 'carebears'.
I read his post as"I haven't stolen or killed anyone in days, i want slaves to farm for my stuff."
Refining modules for Minerals or mining them must be far harder than stealing them from an infinite force of traders and miners.
I've killed more miners in highsec than nullsec actually. Hell, more miners probably die there anyway. Nullsec is way safer than highsec to anybody who can:
1) Watch local
2) Make a safespot
3)Cloak
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Raellah
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:31:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Viking Sven
Edited by: Viking Sven on 30/06/2011 15:13:30
Originally by: Raellah
If you don't understand the obvious reasons as to why having markets dependent on nullsec for ores/mins/items would end up massively increasing the cost to the buyer, then i am certainly not going to waste my time explaining it to you.
That's not the intent at all. The point is to make trit easier to get in null; as an example solution CCP could increase the trit amount from refined ABC ores. You can still mine veldspar, buy it, sell it, etc. in empire just fine.
Trit is **** easy to get in null, the veld roids out there are mountainous. The fact people decide to mine ABC ores out there instead is their choice and adding more trit to ABC's at the expense of the highends (cos that's what will happen if this 'rebalance' came to pass) will solve precisely nothing.
Quote:
Right now, while there are less profitable ores in null, they're not worth mining. As was pointed out, it's easier to mine expensive ores, move them to empire, sell them, buy trit with said monies, and then jump the trit back to null. This has inflated the trit prices in empire and makes manufacturers in null rely on high sec carebears for their trit.
...and by the same turn, T2 manufacturers rely on nullsec alliances for moongoo, reactions, materials, salvage, exploration site items and other rarities. Sorry but the current price of tritanium is reflective of the demand for it at the moment and nothing more. It isn't even an historical high for the mineral ffs.
Quote:
Nobody is saying 'make manufacturing of everything only occur in null'.
You may not be saying that, but the OP is certainly steering towards that outloook with the thread title and follow-on post.
Quote:
Yes, that would increase the price of everything 5x, and it would also be stupid and useless. The point of this thread (even though OP didn't explain it for ****), was to reduce null's dependence on empire for the low end ores.
If the OP didn't explain his original postualtion for **** then maybe he should have backed off on the rage somewhat and actually gave some thought about what he was trying to say instead of coming across as a whiny crybaby who has no idea of how things work around here...
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egola
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:35:00 -
[56]
its called RUNNING AN ECONOMY. because in high sec we have more bodies then we can count, in null sec you guys have more null sec ores then you have miners. THUS SPECIALIZATION IS BORN!
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Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
Because empire is basically 100% safe and nobody would have to leave, you ******
And deep-sov null isn't almost just as safe--arguably, in some ways safer--than hisec.
Get a ****ing clue, you useless herf-blerfing little scrub.
-1/10
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Sililos Sanura
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:43:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Shigeru Potatomoto
Originally by: Sililos Sanura
Edited by: Sililos Sanura on 30/06/2011 15:07:15
This comes down to exactly the same thing every pirate and PvPer in EVE wants, More people for them to gank or rob.
If people are forced to rely on Nullsec then there will be more people in Nullsec, and these pirates will be able to steal everything they want, get all the delicious tears they desire and be content as the superior overlords of the non PvP skilled 'carebears'.
I read his post as"I haven't stolen or killed anyone in days, i want slaves to farm for my stuff."
Refining modules for Minerals or mining them must be far harder than stealing them from an infinite force of traders and miners.
I've killed more miners in highsec than nullsec actually. Hell, more miners probably die there anyway. Nullsec is way safer than highsec to anybody who can:
1) Watch local
2) Make a safespot
3)Cloak
Heh never said Highsec was safe. I gave up my miner alt as every Hulk she has had has met an explosive end hunting for Omber in Highsec.
Some i guess arnt smart enough to grasp the Suicide strategy so would rather demand we go to them to be killed, Like OP is basically saying.
While i hated being blown up by Suiciders i cant help but respect their adaptability to get the job done.
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Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:43:00 -
[59]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
The paradigm that common minerals = highsec and rare minerals in null is ******ed. This just means the bulk of everything in the game is produced by the vastly overabundant and overpopulated nullsec, with specialty items and minerals being exported to jita. This encourages highsec (non)play, which has been shown by the players as a problem since eve has started
I'll go on record here and take a different approach, and use a different argument other than the same old "Because CCP crapped on things".
They have things to fix? Of course they do. But there's also player involvement.
I don't know in which nullsec you live, but where we live we try to be as independant from high-sec as possible. Not only because the place is a logistical nightmare, being almost 100 jumps from Jita, but not to be dependant on high-sec carebears as you put it.
However, there are players who will **** up the null-sec market by pricing things for far more than 100% of Jita price.
Now, there is nothing wrong with doing that if your intention is to [f]really[/i] **** up said market. As, say, someone who had access to that regional market but for some reason became red to it and still haves a JC in the area. Doing that is fair game.
However if you live in said region, is blue to everyone on it, also depends on that market but sells your stuff for a 400% profit margin and at the same time complains about dependancy on high-sec carebears.. then.... yeah...
____________
Originally by: CCP Guard
Nobody gets to ruin EVE but us!
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:44:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 30/06/2011 15:46:25
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
Nullsec is to Africa as the western world is to empire. Do you know anything about Africa? It has fantastic natural wealth, just like nullsec. But, it suffers from underdevelopment, socio-economic disparities, and tribal warfare that can arise at a moment's notice, just like nullsec. Africa suffers from political pressures to acquire its resources. It's the same with nullsec. The RMT'ers don't want nullsec to be a stable place in the game. Otherwise, they couldn't keep everyone else out while they plunder its wealth.....just like Africa and the developed world.
Now, ask yourself, could you survive if European and American countries were dependent upon Africa? Well, why would you think Empire needs to be dependent upon nullsec?
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Simetraz
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:45:00 -
[61]
OH one last thing in case someone is running numbers and saying how can it be efficient to run low ends to 0.0 in any amount to make it worth your time.
Nobody moves raw minerals to 0.0 it is all compressed.
To the tune of about 4 jump freighter loads for each Super Carrier.
To respect those that spent the time figuring out exactly how I will say nothing more.
Easy to guess though as that is no secret, but it appears the just about everyone uses a different cocktail.
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Freddie Failquitter
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:47:00 -
[62]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
The paradigm that common minerals = highsec and rare minerals in null is ******ed. This just means the bulk of everything in the game is produced by the vastly overabundant and overpopulated nullsec, with specialty items and minerals being exported to jita. This encourages highsec (non)play, which has been shown by the players as a problem since eve has started
Would you like some cheese with that whine? Oh, and since you're obviously new around here, Welcome to Eve!
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Sililos Sanura
Gallente
Rep-X
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.30 16:03:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 30/06/2011 15:46:25
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
Nullsec is to Africa as the western world is to empire. Do you know anything about Africa? It has fantastic natural wealth, just like nullsec. But, it suffers from underdevelopment, socio-economic disparities, and tribal warfare that can arise at a moment's notice, just like nullsec. Africa suffers from political pressures to acquire its resources. It's the same with nullsec. The RMT'ers don't want nullsec to be a stable place in the game. Otherwise, they couldn't keep everyone else out while they plunder its wealth.....just like Africa and the developed world.
Now, ask yourself, could you survive if European and American countries were dependent upon Africa? Well, why would you think Empire needs to be dependent upon nullsec?
Perfectly put.
+1
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Jokesta
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.30 16:17:00 -
[64]
The Africa example is very good. Essentially null sec is responsible for it's own lack of influence. I just returned to the game after break fora it and ALOT of the null sec alliance didn't exist when I left it's horribly unstable.
trying to turn an era of null sec into Nita would be like running the NYC stock exchange I'n central Europe I'n the middle of WWII the fact is ALOT of null sec seems only interested I'n trade to fuel the wars not just for trade. if someone set up a Nita equivalent it would get invaded not because someone wanted to control the trade but just to shoot people.
you live In the environment of your own creation.
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andeira
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Posted - 2011.06.30 16:19:00 -
[65]
It can be like that just check out the chinese eve server
There it is like this: Drakes in high sec 40 mil in 0.0 30 mil
Most of the normal items are cheaper in 0.0 then in jita there.
Faction ammo is more expensive in 0.0 then in jita because the faction ammo comes from high sec mission runners.
faction modules/ships that drop in 0.0 are cheaper there then in jita as wel
-------------
Originally by: Stitcher
For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Jokesta
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.30 17:08:00 -
[66]
the Chinese eve server is a poor example. they have the population of single tranquility alliances over their whole server. when tranquility is at peak how many of he 60k people are I'n empire? probably more than half.
I only vague remember the Iss from when I started the game but imguessing the idea wasnt economically or time viable.
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Jaroslav Unwanted
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Posted - 2011.06.30 17:11:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Alpine 69
Originally by: Ripley Nostromo
Originally by: WlliamRyker
Because empire is basically 100% safe and nobody would have to leave, you ******
Nullsec is 100% safe? Stupid fewl, not even close. Reetard...
Boy do I hope that you're trolling.
Actually confirmed null sec is more safe then empire 90 percent of the time in an year.
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.30 17:16:00 -
[68]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
This encourages highsec (non)play, which has been shown by the players as a problem since eve has started
Don't B.S. me about high sec being a "non play" area. If you removed your monocle from your posterior and used it on your eyes, you would see that high-sec can be just as active...without the blobs, I might add. Non play is crazyness like warping on to the grid only to freeze for ten minutes and wake up in a pod, never even having fired a single shot. I invite you to come out and play faction warfare, or be part of Privateers for a day. You'll see what "non play" goes on in hi-sec.
=eyeroll=
Go back to your local warning system, where you know who's around miles in advance and have time to prepare and set up a camp. Try doing that during an empire war in high sec... no bubbles, no bombs.
Warmly,
"The Bear" JW 
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Riddick Liddell
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Posted - 2011.06.30 17:23:00 -
[69]
Paragon Soul
Providence
Tribute
Saying "null sec" means nothing. It's like saying "I live in the city"
Feel free to mine Veld in M-O or Ice in R3 though. |
Ein Spiegel
Minmatar
Fly-by-Night Industries LLC PTY LTD
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:06:00 -
[70]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
The paradigm that common minerals = highsec and rare minerals in null is ******ed. This just means the bulk of everything in the game is produced by the vastly overabundant and overpopulated nullsec, with specialty items and minerals being exported to jita. This encourages highsec (non)play, which has been shown by the players as a problem since eve has started
I'm going to give you a possible answer, and I haven't read the other three pages. So hopefully someone hasn't already said this. But here goes.
There is a pretty easy answer. Because, when you go to Nullsec, and look in the belts, you'll see something. GIGANTIC Veldspar asteroids. Since asteroids that don't get mined seem to, erm, grow, this is indicative that people are not mining extensively for basic minerals in Nullsec. (I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that the scale is incredibly small when compared to Empire.) The reasons, primarily, that immediately come to mind are... security and logistics. You can safely park 6 Hulks and an Orca in Hi-sec, and not worry too much about it, and strip belts down your gullet to get all the common mineral goodness. You don't have to worry about roaming gangs popping into system, warping in on you, and bubbling you while you all try to get your orca (or Rorq) full of goodies aligned somewhere vaguely towards a safe POS. This leads me into logistics... Empire is simply lousy with stations, simple places you can run and dock up and store your crap. Nullsec has much much lower "station density", and even then not everyone can go to a station and expect to dock.
For much the same reasons as above, Industry in general in Null is a gamble. There are fewer stations and outposts with factory lines, and while you can set one up in a POS, is it worth the risk to dump massive minerals in, hit the "GO" button, and hope that no blob of supercapitals makes a fun run at destroying your POS / Reinforcing your station / Nuking the factory service? Logistically, it's a whole lot simpler to utilize the power of the stations and markets in high security space, and assuming your Sov holding alliance has capable jump pilots and some basic infrastructure, make JF or carrier/SC runs to bring supplies in. Nullsec is (generally) a free-for-all warzone with no guarantee you'll come out of the other side of the gate in one piece. Would you set up an armaments factory on the front line? (Or even in a protected rear area?) Nope. That's part of what made the US so important to the Allies in WWII - it was effectively a safe place to produce all the crap you need, then toss it on a ship and get it to the Front.
Also, regarding your "overpopulated nullsec"... you have GOT to be trolling. When I was young in eve, I did a Shuttle circuit of 50 jumps through nullsec. (Granted, at the time, PCU hovered around 16-20k.) I didn't see more than a handful of systems with more than 1 pilot in local, and most systems were completely empty. During my time with 0.0 Sov holding alliances (CoW and Init - initiate jokes now), it was pretty much the same outside of common travel routes and core station systems. When you do see systems that have the kind of population counts you see around high security space, you ran and hid (or prepared for battle) because odds are you were about to get into a fight. (Or get gang-banged into oblivion.)
CCP's made some changes to help that (ie, making it harder to get top end minerals in Hi-sec through mission loot reprocessing) but it remains just simply safer and more economical to use Hi-sec as your main supplier. (Except capital and supercap production, which is usually the cause of defense CTAs.)
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Ripley Nostromo
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:26:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Alpine 69
Notice the red part in bold. Nullsec ≠ Empire.
This is the danger associated with posting while drinking heavily at 09:00 am. Acuiring a monocole would help you see what I meant but didn't say. Please feel free to call me filthy names for awhile. (Off for another beer)...
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Falbala
Gallente
Ishtar's Destiny
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:30:00 -
[72]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
The paradigm that common minerals = highsec and rare minerals in null is ******ed.
This is true. I've done a few L3 missions with my alt to raise her Duvolle standings here is what she can reprocess from modules (there are 500 here, we get about 20 each mission, sometimes less, sometimes more)
It's not enough to build a BC it's a good chunk of it. Not going to reprocess it, not before removing the named and going to a better station, it's just to show off...
Ideally empire should be the supplier of goods and lowsec the supplier of minerals but the game has gone a different path.
L4 missions give a lot more stuff of course.
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Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:33:00 -
[73]
Null sec is crippled and nerfed by having controlling powers lock outposts for nuetrals.
End of thread.
Remove outposts being locked outs, people will come and populate your markets in null sec.
Terrible idea you say?
You have no recourse to be butt hurt about empire being the defacto place to trade.
Very simple concept
--
MT? Character Bazaar right?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:34:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Viking Sven
Originally by: Raellah
You do realise that if the market were dependent on nullsec for goods and minerals then everything would cost at least 5x as much?
This makes no sense. There's open market competition in null, just the same as empire.
Because people will not mine tritanium in null unless it pay as much as high ends, and that before transportation costs.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:39:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 30/06/2011 15:46:25
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
Nullsec is to Africa as the western world is to empire. Do you know anything about Africa? It has fantastic natural wealth, just like nullsec. But, it suffers from underdevelopment, socio-economic disparities, and tribal warfare that can arise at a moment's notice, just like nullsec. Africa suffers from political pressures to acquire its resources. It's the same with nullsec. The RMT'ers don't want nullsec to be a stable place in the game. Otherwise, they couldn't keep everyone else out while they plunder its wealth.....just like Africa and the developed world.
Now, ask yourself, could you survive if European and American countries were dependent upon Africa? Well, why would you think Empire needs to be dependent upon nullsec?
Probably the best Eve analogy I have ever heard.
.
Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Henry Haphorn
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:41:00 -
[76]
This thread's argument is moot. You make it sound like nullsec doesn't have the common minerals that highsec does. Wrong. I have mined and manufactured in nullsec for about a year and I learned first hand how independent nullsec alliances can be from high-sec. Hell, my old corporation managed to mine enough materials (coupled with components built out of moon goo) out of nullsec to build an outpost of our own. The only reason anyone in the alliance needed minerals out of highsec is because they are short on time and need the resources "now", therefore they purchase them in highsec and transport them into nullsec.
Other than that, if they have the time, they can make it all out nullsec only.
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry.
It already does. The components needed for T2 production can only come straight out of either lowsec or nullsec space (mercoxit and moon goo anyone?). Highsec can still operate on its own without nullsec resources, assuming it sticks to just T1 production only.
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Montevius Williams
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:42:00 -
[77]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
The paradigm that common minerals = highsec and rare minerals in null is ******ed. This just means the bulk of everything in the game is produced by the vastly overabundant and overpopulated nullsec, with specialty items and minerals being exported to jita. This encourages highsec (non)play, which has been shown by the players as a problem since eve has started
Commander Riker, report to the Bridge please!
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Falbala
Gallente
Ishtar's Destiny
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:50:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Henry Haphorn
T(mercoxit and moon goo anyone?)
Just got mercoxit today from a L3 mission in 0.9.
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Grimpak
Gallente
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:59:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Koragoni SkyKnight
Originally by: RiskyFrisky
Quit your *****ing. No one cares about you QQing about not being able to skyrocket prices.
Spoken like someone who's never participated in alliance logistics.
I remember the pre-JF and pre-JB days.
now those were the days of combat logistics
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Fore Khaos
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Posted - 2011.06.30 19:15:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Spurty
Null sec is crippled and nerfed by having controlling powers lock outposts for nuetrals.
End of thread.
Remove outposts being locked outs, people will come and populate your markets in null sec.
Terrible idea you say?
You have no recourse to be butt hurt about empire being the defacto place to trade.
Very simple concept
Providence?
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Vladkar
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.06.30 19:23:00 -
[81]
War is waged over resources. Why would two entities wage war on each other for territory if the resources are all available in high-sec anyway?
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Zyress
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Posted - 2011.06.30 19:59:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Viking Sven
Edited by: Viking Sven on 30/06/2011 15:13:30
Originally by: Raellah
If you don't understand the obvious reasons as to why having markets dependent on nullsec for ores/mins/items would end up massively increasing the cost to the buyer, then i am certainly not going to waste my time explaining it to you.
That's not the intent at all. The point is to make trit easier to get in null; as an example solution CCP could increase the trit amount from refined ABC ores. You can still mine veldspar, buy it, sell it, etc. in empire just fine.
Right now, while there are less profitable ores in null, they're not worth mining. As was pointed out, it's easier to mine expensive ores, move them to empire, sell them, buy trit with said monies, and then jump the trit back to null. This has inflated the trit prices in empire and makes manufacturers in null rely on high sec carebears for their trit.
Nobody is saying 'make manufacturing of everything only occur in null'. Yes, that would increase the price of everything 5x, and it would also be stupid and useless. The point of this thread (even though OP didn't explain it for ****), was to reduce null's dependence on empire for the low end ores.
I'm not a miner but from what I'm reading here your dependence on hi-sec trit is only because your miners go for the higher margin ores available to them out there. If you don't want to pay "inflated" empire prices for trit, then mine your own out there, obviously the miners don't think the price is so inflated that it isn't still in their best interest to mine the higher margin stuff.
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Javja
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Posted - 2011.06.30 20:10:00 -
[83]
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
The paradigm that common minerals = highsec and rare minerals in null is ******ed. This just means the bulk of everything in the game is produced by the vastly overabundant and overpopulated nullsec, with specialty items and minerals being exported to jita. This encourages highsec (non)play, which has been shown by the players as a problem since eve has started
Pssh! Why not get rid of high sec altogether? Turn it all into 0.0
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Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
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Posted - 2011.07.02 08:18:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 30/06/2011 15:46:25
Originally by: WlliamRyker
It should be the other way around, the high-sec economy and jita should be dependent on nullsec industry. You know, people who play EVE online.
Nullsec is to Africa as the western world is to empire. Do you know anything about Africa? It has fantastic natural wealth, just like nullsec. But, it suffers from underdevelopment, socio-economic disparities, and tribal warfare that can arise at a moment's notice, just like nullsec. Africa suffers from political pressures to acquire its resources. It's the same with nullsec. The RMT'ers don't want nullsec to be a stable place in the game. Otherwise, they couldn't keep everyone else out while they plunder its wealth.....just like Africa and the developed world.
Now, ask yourself, could you survive if European and American countries were dependent upon Africa? Well, why would you think Empire needs to be dependent upon nullsec?
Basically, this.
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