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Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
57
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Posted - 2012.09.19 01:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't think HAM's will be all that useful even with the buff.
You're still talking about ~30km range on a drake with 2 TEs. Because of the way missiles work that will effectively be 25km or so. Javelins will go to 45 or so, but with similar DPS to current HML drakes. In other words a HAM drake will do okay to good damage to 25km, and mediocre damage to 45 after a reload.
Essentially drakes and tengus will be removed from small gangs as a kiting option. I'd expect to see most smallish gangs switching to tier 3 battlecruisers or arty hurricanes. Since you don't need t2 guns for canes or tornados, and since drakes will present much less of a threat to cynabals and vagas, we'll probably be back to minmatar online. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
57
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 04:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oh right. That might help a bit. Right now with HAMs you have to be in scram range to really apply any damage, especially if your enemy is trying to fly directly away from you.
Still, even with the changes it's pretty short range and having 2 TE means you have to sacrifice damage, tank or speed to get it to work. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
57
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Posted - 2012.09.19 05:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:I usually run TPs in my mids, so does this mean I have to choose between TPs or TCs? Or am I being a noob and missing something?
I'm guessing you can either fit TE's in the lowslots or TC's in the mids. I'd make a guess and say that a TC in the mids would be the best option, considering how garbage a missile ship's dps will be (you'll desperately need all those BCUs).
Quote:It most likely will still do the same DPS as it currently does, just at a slightly less range(Until you take into account TEs and TCs). Oh and not to mention the fact that Furies are getting a DPS boost.
Going by the current changes to heavy missiles a 2 BCU drake will do 300ish DPS out to 50km (400 with drones) and will be shut down by tracking disruptors. In other words it's garbage.
I'd go as far as to say that drakes will become obsolete in small gangs if the current nerf goes through. There would be no real reason to fly them since tier 3 battlecruisers would be far superior in the damage at mid range role - due to their higher dps at all ranges, speed and ability to kill things quickly. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
58
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Posted - 2012.09.19 08:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:Or about as good as a Harb (circa 300 gun DPS @ 53km with Aroura... or 170 gun DPS @ 48km with Radio - and that's with the same 2 Heat Sinks).
How many beam harbingers do you see? None? There's a reason for that. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
58
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Posted - 2012.09.19 10:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote:As opposed to which other ships in EvE? Ohyou.jpg
You're picking out one thing and then congratulating yourself on being technically correct. Of the tier 2 battlecruisers the drake has the fewest lowslots. 2 of those lowslots really need BCU's, especially if a nerf comes. So you're left with 2 lowslots. If you want to fit 2 TE you're sacrificing tank and further reducing the speed of an already slow ship.
With the Hurricane and harbinger there's no real problem with fitting 2 TE, 2 damage mods, a damage control and either a fitting mod or a nano.
And don't compare them to medium beams or rails. Those weapons see almost zero use in pvp. Bringing HMLs down to medium rail levels won't mean that people will switch to feroxes and brutixes. It'll mean that people will switch to the next best, easiest to train option - which is arty canes (or ac canes solo) and tornados.
I could care less about the nerf, personally, since I can fly most subcaps. But obviously I wouldn't be buying any drakes if the changes are going to be that big. Just pointing out that the scale of the changes will probably see tier 3 bcs completely dominating small gang pvp. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
60
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Posted - 2012.09.19 10:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
You're kind of right. Although a shield tanked harb/cane will have close to 50k EHP (or 60ish if you have a bigger gang with dedicated tackle and you fit an invuln).
I actually agree with you that the drake is overpowered right now. But the level of the changes is so drastic that it'll bring the drake from slightly OP to useless. You may as well reprocess the other HML ships if the patch goes as well. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
61
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Posted - 2012.09.19 11:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:It will be far from useless. You get a little less range, which is well over due, and a little less dps. However, you can fit a targeting computer in the mids, sacrificing some tank for greatly improved damage application. Also keep in mind that the Drake will get a revamp along with every other BC in time, and I think it will all pan out very well.
20% damage and 25% range is huge. The way it'll work out is that people will switch to whatever is strong at the time. The drake will be a fair way down the list. Therefore people won't use it.
Quote:Considering that the AC cane is being nerfed, and the armor cane effectively removed, it's not that bad.
I for one like the changes off the bat, I Friggin hate Drakes, I can fly them well but they were to good at to much.
I got the impression that canes will still be decent, but you might have to go for 1 med, 1 small neut instead of 2 medium. Like I was saying, smaller shield gangs will switch over to nados, talos' and arty canes. No one is going to fly a beam harbinger you have to be joking. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
61
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Posted - 2012.09.19 11:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Meta 4 neuts should let you get it on there. I'd say the standard would be 425s and 1 medium/1 small.
I'm not arguing that the drake doesn't need a nerf. I'm saying that the current suggestion will make it obsolete. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
62
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Posted - 2012.09.19 11:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:I have a Drake that slings missiles 110km, so obsolete, 80km doing 350 DPS us acceptable for a medium weapon system.
If you want to brawl with the canes and taller, HAM --------> again just like the rest of the BCs, no one size fits all Drake.
Well, with the changes it'll be 60 or 50km doing 300dps. HAM's suck a bit because they need to be in scram range and are awful against frigates.
All this stuff about medium weapons systems is meaningless when there's a lineup of battlecruisers that fit BS guns. People pick the things that work best regardless of how it's 'meant' to be used. Like medium rails and beams, HML's would become fairly pointless. Therefore people will fly things that have good speed and damage projection. A null talos, nado and arty cane will probably have the best combination of speed and damage. That's why people will fly those in roaming gangs and why drakes will be obsolete. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
66
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Posted - 2012.09.20 01:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:What an ignorant and arrogant opinion. A few comments:
- Pulse lasers have one of the highest optimals in the game for close range weapons. You can generally expect that unbonused HPL will not hit to 30km even with Scorch. It is and always has been one of the strongest kiting weapons in the game due to fantastic damage projection. Why do you feel that 45km HAMs is too short range to kite with? That's outside of even Loki boosted point range.
- There's no reason you won't be able to use HML to kite.
- You need T2 for HML far less than you need it for Artillery/Beams/Rails. The inability to use T2 LR ammo is crippling on those platforms, but not for HML.
- Minmatar are getting raped by these balancing changes. When was the last time you saw a Rifter and thought "Oh look, a good frigate!". Even the Slasher is generally bad when compared to the other options out there.
You're comparing things as if only medium guns exist in a vacuum. You could use HML or HAMS to kite but there will be lots of better options.
What will happen is that people will use short range guns on tier 3 battlecruisers, since they offer better damage projection and tracking on a more agile ship. Arty will still have the high alpha so packs of hurricanes could definitely work.
Nobody will use medium beams or rails. I mean seriously, who is going to think a beam harbinger with 270 dps, awful tracking and 600 volley is actually worth using.
And yeah, minmatar frigates are pretty poor these days. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
69
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 21:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:I'll be really surprised if HAMs don't become one of the premier weapon platforms post HML nerf.
Uh, no. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest
BricK sQuAD.
70
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 07:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'm getting 530dps with 3 BCU and hobgoblin II's. Discounting drones and using 2 BCU you get 384. |
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