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Katarina Damaro
Helios Alliance C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 11:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
(Tl;dr version further down.)
I had been looking for a good crafting MMO for months before I found EVE and although I'm a new player, I already have two accounts. This game has a lot of similarities to good old Ultima Online and I like this kind of open-world PvP thrill as much as I like crafting stuff. The one gives meaning to the other.
I recently joined a nullsec corporation and started mining there, expecting to haul in riches in this dangerous area. My little retriever is no match for nullsec pirates and is frequently blown up. I expected that. I also expected the reward of this risky business to be appropriately large. Surprisingly, I barely earn more ISK per hour in nullsec than in highsec.
I've moved my miner back to highsec where the boring task of mining is as profitable as in nullsec but where my retriever never gets blown up. It is much less enjoyable as nothing ever happens in highsec. No excitement when local gets updated, no thrill when I try to reach the safe POS before the enemy ganking gang reaches it, nothing. Just my little click every quarter hour, which is quite boring.
Please answer this one question: What reason do I have to return to nullsec?
I like the PvP aspect of this game very much and love the idea of a conquerable nullsec. But economically, what motivation do I have to return there?
Tl;dr Version: Item production should consume less highsec minerals in order to reduce their worth. Item production should consume much more nullsec minerals to increase their worth. (I see you already started this very cautiously with the new mineral requirements. But you also increased highsec mineral consumption.) Please nerf highsec mining ISK/h so that I have an economic reason to return to the fun part of this game - insecure and exciting non-consensual PvP in nullsec. This is a game about space battles, right?
Flame on, gentlemen. |

Selaya Ataru
Pink Kitten Kommando To The Moon
25
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 11:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Get one of your buddies to fly a brick drake and tank the rats in the nullsec belts, problem solved.
And yes that how everybody does it, a bait Drake or simply tanked Exhumers. |

NiGhTTraX
FISKL GUARDS Nulli Secunda
190
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 12:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think he's talking about being blown up by players, not belt rats.
Here's a reason to mine in nullsec: Arkonor. It's the 2nd most profitable ore type. Then there's Bistot and Crokite. And then there's Mercoxit. You can get pretty rich mining these. If you joined a nullsec corp and you still get blown up while mining then switch corps, they're doing it wrong. They should protect you while mining.
You could also trying wormholes. Same ABCM ores, no local, more dangerous, more fun. If you're gonna post here thinking your idea is the greatest thing since bacon and that it will save EVE and possibly all humankind with it, you're gonna have a bad time. |

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
307
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 12:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Seems to me you need to ask yourself which is more important to you in Eve.
1. grinding isk or 2. enjoying your time playing the game
Hope that helps. Fly Safe!
Oh, and...
Quote:Please nerf highsec mining ISK/h so that I have an economic reason to return to the fun part of this game - insecure and exciting non-consensual PvP in nullsec. This is a game about space battles, right? Just a friendly suggestion.... good, well thought out ideas should really be about 'improving the game for all players' and not 'please make sweeping changes to squeue the game in my specific playstyle's favor'.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |

Katarina Damaro
Helios Alliance C0NVICTED
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 12:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thanks for your ideas, but that's not what I'm talking about. My concern is that even with the valuable ores like arconor, the ISK/h can't compete with the ISK/h of highsec mining. Yes, the 0sec ores are more valuable, but you have to deduct the cost of the logistics infrastructure from that gain and end up with earning less than in highsec. |

TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
392
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 12:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Move ice out of hisec and into sites in low/null/wh space |

Katarina Damaro
Helios Alliance C0NVICTED
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 12:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Move ice out of hisec and into sites in low/null/wh space
I like that idea. Moving ice to lowsec and only lowsec would reanimate that area, too. |

Hermann Simm
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 14:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Highsec mining is fine, buff lowsec and 0.0 mining to have something like ore yields 50% more
Also I had this thought after playing dead space, an orca sized vessel that can tractor roids in to its gigantic hold and then activate a module kind of like siege or triage where you are unable to leave for x minutes when the asteroid is being processed. |

Lavitakus Bromier
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 15:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hermann Simm wrote:Highsec mining is fine, buff lowsec and 0.0 mining to have something like ore yields 50% more
Also I had this thought after playing dead space, an orca sized vessel that can tractor roids in to its gigantic hold and then activate a module kind of like siege or triage where you are unable to leave for x minutes when the asteroid is being processed.
High sec is.fine +1 to a buff to the other secs |

Ensign X
286
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 15:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Posting in the least stealthy "NERF HIGHSEC" whine thread these forums have ever seen. |

Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Removing ice from highsec is good. Hyperboxing ice mining fleets don't belong in this world |

Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
575
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
See, this argument would be valid, except it is based on a flawed foundation. EVE is more complicated than your argument would suggest.
The safest place to mine ice or ore in this game is not high sec.
It is in null sec, specifically if you have an alliance capable of effectively near absolute defense and support.
Keep in mind, they earned this ability. Holding sov is not handed out on a silver platter, it is something ships blow up over quite frequently.
That being said, a good chunk of mining IS done in these environments in null.
The higher quality ore is there, and the better ice too. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |

Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:
The safest place to mine ice or ore in this game is not high sec.
It is in null sec, specifically if you have an alliance capable of effectively near absolute defense and support..
Where are these "perfectly safe" nullsec mining ops? Are they the ones which sit huddled in a pos for the entire time my pathetic lone atron is in local? |

Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
575
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Uris Vitgar wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:
The safest place to mine ice or ore in this game is not high sec.
It is in null sec, specifically if you have an alliance capable of effectively near absolute defense and support..
Where are these "perfectly safe" nullsec mining ops? Are they the ones which sit huddled in a pos for the entire time my pathetic lone atron is in local? ROFL... If you got in local, the perimeter was not that absolute, I must point out.
No.
You need to visit one of the top alliances to see this in action.
Try deep in Goonswarm sov, they have a reputation for this ability. They should, after all, they earned it. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |

Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1694
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
O look... another one of those threads... |

HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
65
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Katarina Damaro wrote:(Tl;dr version further down.)
I had been looking for a good crafting MMO for months before I found EVE and although I'm a new player, I already have two accounts. This game has a lot of similarities to good old Ultima Online and I like this kind of open-world PvP thrill as much as I like crafting stuff. The one gives meaning to the other.
I recently joined a nullsec corporation and started mining there, expecting to haul in riches in this dangerous area. My little retriever is no match for nullsec pirates and is frequently blown up. I expected that. I also expected the reward of this risky business to be appropriately large. Surprisingly, I barely earn more ISK per hour in nullsec than in highsec.
I've moved my miner back to highsec where the boring task of mining is as profitable as in nullsec but where my retriever never gets blown up. It is much less enjoyable as nothing ever happens in highsec. No excitement when local gets updated, no thrill when I try to reach the safe POS before the enemy ganking gang reaches it, nothing. Just my little click every quarter hour, which is quite boring.
Please answer this one question: What reason do I have to return to nullsec?
I like the PvP aspect of this game very much and love the idea of a conquerable nullsec. But economically, what motivation do I have to return there?
Tl;dr Version: Item production should consume less highsec minerals in order to reduce their worth. Item production should consume much more nullsec minerals to increase their worth. (I see you already started this very cautiously with the new mineral requirements. But you also increased highsec mineral consumption.) Please nerf highsec mining ISK/h so that I have an economic reason to return to the fun part of this game - insecure and exciting non-consensual PvP in nullsec. This is a game about space battles, right?
Flame on, gentlemen.
as a non-miner all I have to say is
SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!!!!
Prices of everything have already gone up significantly over the past year...The last thing we need to do is nerf high sec mining and make prices go up on everything even more.
Anyone want a 1.2 billion isk orca that would be useless in nerfed highsec??? Anyone???
How about 300million isk tier 1 battleships? NO? |

Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
202
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 19:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think the confusion comes from the fact that CCP doesnt actually control the prices . . . the prices are player driven.
Basically the only thing that you could do to make the prices better would be to drop some of the trit/pyerite from ships, but I dont think that is the answer.
The market will eventually take care of it self as more null sec miners move back to high sec. |

Furry Commander
Furry Armada
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 19:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
OH OH! i am has answer for this!
mining profitability in nulsec requires a pretty big isk and SP investment if you aren't in a major nulsec mining corp that can provide the necessities. it requires extensive multiboxing and at least one high SP toon as well as several more moderate ones. The minimum according to the pre barge change stats is 5 players/accounts, basically you need three Hulks, a hauler in an orca preferably and a fully skilled maxed mindlinked rorqual. scan down a grave site (belt mining is to risky) leave the rorqual at the POS and set him as wing booster and the orca (100mn MWD fit) as squad booster. use the Orca as an anchor. you can chew up loads of ore and compress it with the rorqual for transport, or if your alliance has a station reprocess and sell locally if there is demand. if reds jump in, have the Orca Squad warp to POS having a defense fleet active in the area and maybe a logi or ratter buddy in system can help as well, and any additional hulks is just more proffits |

Hans Momaki
State War Academy Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 20:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nerfing Highsec would be an idea. A good one, maybe - if done right. But not with reducing mining output there. Buffing yield in Low/Null would not help either, because more yield will decrease prices.
The nerf HS really needs is nerfing stations. 50% (40?50?) refining stations and endless ammounts of various slots for production etc is just to much compared to null.
Although I like the idea of removing ice out of HS, that would be so awesome for my wallet.. don't nerf mining output in HS, because it is bad for economy.
|

HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
70
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 20:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hans Momaki wrote:Nerfing Highsec would be an idea. A good one, maybe - if done right. But not with reducing mining output there. Buffing yield in Low/Null would not help either, because more yield will decrease prices.
The nerf HS really needs is nerfing stations. 50% (40?50?) refining stations and endless ammounts of various slots for production etc is just to much compared to null.
Although I like the idea of removing ice out of HS, that would be so awesome for my wallet.. don't nerf mining output in HS, because it is bad for economy.
The problem with removing ice from high sec is that it gives an I WIN button to alliances that have already establish themselves.
New alliance wouldn't be able to safely mine ice because they wouldn't be able to fuel POS', thus unable to build capitals, and thus unable to compete with alliances that already have capitals.
So, removing ice from high sec only helps to make existing alliances become more powerful.
It also has the negative effect of allowing major alliances and coallitions like goons/test to take control of as many ice belts as possible, thus causing small established alliances to fail.
So, a smart alliance/coalition would essentially be able to rule the game.
They'd ahve the only POS' to contruct capitals, thus they'd have the only capitals. |

Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
750
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 23:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Katarina Damaro wrote:I've moved my miner back to highsec where the boring task of mining is as profitable as in nullsec but where my retriever never gets blown up.
This is when your post becomes a trolling post. brb |

Katarina Damaro
Helios Alliance C0NVICTED
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 23:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:This is when your post becomes a trolling post. Why? This is my play experience. Not more, not less. Mining IS boring. I do it for the ISK and because I'm new to the game and want to find out what manufacturing is like. Do you mine because it is an inherently fun activity?
|

Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
291
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 00:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
You do know that when the value of your Ore drops post nerf, (back to normal levels, if it ever does), you'll be complaining that it simply isn't worth doing right?
What are you; some kind of grind monkey?
Why would you want to lose ISK/profit on your ventures? The whole idea is that, when you do something, you do it because it is worth doing, profitable, and doesn't require all your time just to earn a living. As it is, it already takes almost all your time to do that; so now you want what, an extra 12 hours a day required to make the same amount as you could have made before in the first 12 hours.
Right, nerf minerals. From now on, Ore will simply yield 50% of pre-existing numbers when it is refined. This means it takes you twice as long to gather the minerals required to build anything.
..I wonder what that will do to the mineral market? Maybe I was actually sleeping in front of my computer and dreamed I posted. Certainly, it's not there now. |

Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
136
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 00:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
If you move ice into lowsec, all the nullsec megablocs will occupy those spaces, bring much tears to pirates and station camping "pvpers". |

Cheopis
Cheopis Industries
23
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 01:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Katarina Damaro wrote:Thanks for your ideas, but that's not what I'm talking about. My concern is that even with the valuable ores like arconor, the ISK/h can't compete with the ISK/h of highsec mining. Yes, the 0sec ores are more valuable, but you have to deduct the cost of the logistics infrastructure from that gain and end up with earning less than in highsec.
Thing is that in nullsec you have opportunities outside mining that you do not have in lowsec.
Have you ever looked at how much things sell for in the open market in nullsec? Most corps or alliances aren't going to allow you to truly gouge your own corp or alliances with pricing, but there's still some VERY nice opportunities to BOTH help your corp and make isk by the shovelful. Some corps or alliances will not allow you to place on the open market at all, but you can certainly create contracts for your people to buy.
Then there are the 0.0 moons and planets. They are... significantly better than what you find in highsec. Your corp or alliance is most likely going to lay claim to the best of those planets and moons, but there's still plenty of room for you to make some serious ISK passively while you are mining. There are very few corps or alliances that won't pay you well for fuel blocks, which are a bit of a pain to set up the first time, but with good notes, you can recreate a fuel block assembly line pretty quickly.
In essence, the isk for pure mining is really not that much different from null to highsec, but the opportunities for other income is MUCH better in null if your corp or alliance doesn't lock you down completely on what they let you do.
Just remember that when the **** hits the fan, the multibillionaire industrialist will be expected to crack open their wallet and help the corp, then lose a few ships fighting if need be.
Perhaps I'll see you out in 0.0 some day. I'm looking for a place out to nullsec myself right now, twiddling my thumbs and coasting in highsec mining belts in 0.9 and farming crappy highsec planets to learn about PI. |

Zendon Taredi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 11:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
look. right now plag is like second to arkonor in value. that is obviously not going to last. so lets not balance the game on an anomaly. A needed buff to nullsec, imo, is high density roids of the highsec ores. I want a scordite roid as thick as a crokite roid. Something that you could mine for an hour. They could be exclusive to gravi sites. |

HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
71
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 12:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Zendon Taredi wrote:look. right now plag is like second to arkonor in value. that is obviously not going to last. so lets not balance the game on an anomaly. A needed buff to nullsec, imo, is high density roids of the highsec ores. I want a scordite roid as thick as a crokite roid. Something that you could mine for an hour. They could be exclusive to gravi sites.
this is all created by the players anyway |

Iris Bravemount
The Golden Gaze
82
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 14:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
The "problem" is that you would need to nerf all sources of highsec income at once to achieve what OP seems to want to achieve. Otherwise it would just lead to people moving on to different activities in highsec.
Of course the only real way to do that would be a CONCORD tax on any and all wallet increases in highsec. It would even make sense lore-wise. Of course, people could still work around this by mining in highsec, hauling to lowsec and sell their stuff there. Would still make lowsec more populated (especially with industrial ships) than now. And of course, for this to have a real impact, the tax would need to be massive, like 25% to 50%, or people would just put up with it. But this would make so many people angry that it can't be done. Imagine the ISK sink of having 25% taxes on all Jita sales.
tl;dr: The problem is not the highsec mining, it's highsec itself. I accidentally... the bookmark. How much is it worth? |

Esker Sheep
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 14:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
After much consideration ... No don't do this.
1. You shouldn't be losing retrievers to belt rats. If you are then you/your corp/your alliance are doing it wrong.
2. If you can't make money mining ABC ores in nullsec then you/your corp/your alliance are doing it wrong.
3. .... oh, you get the idea.
I'm now primarily a PVP pilot. I do have decent mining skills though, from earlier in my life, and occassionally resort to it when I'm semi-afk. I fly retrievers too, haven't lost one in the last couple of years, and make a reasonable profit when mining. Here's how:
1. Mine in fleets with gang bonuses. Preferably with Rorq bonuses. 2. Mine grav sites not belts. 3. Kill the rats with drones, you're in fleet afterall, or tank the smaller ones.
The key really is not to lose ships. If you can't get a fleet together don't mine. Instead shoot rats, its much more profitable. |

Gelvina
Temnava Legion TEMNAVA
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 14:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
I might be wrong on several points but here is my current understanding.
Looking at the current isk/m3 of roids out there its clear that mining in risky places is not such a cool idea. Accept for arkanor things found in high-sec is valuable more than some things found in 0.0/w-space.
Now mining and mineral supply have been altered by several things I believe.
1. no more gun-mining as drones drop isk rather than compressed ore in drone regions. This is probably most significant I think. This means a vast amount less minerals is now entering the "system". Take a look at this: http://eve.grismar.net/ore/ Now the compounds/alloys are no longer being "mined" As you can see they mostly provided the common high-sec type of minerals. So it is clear that with them gone the supply of tritanium->nocxium is going to take a hit.
2. mining barges buffed. I'm not talking about the EHP thing. Rather the fact that they have larger bays. Making it somewhat easier to mine semi-AFK. In theory this should allow more minerals to be mined. The entry to mining-barges is also easier now so more people can mine. Now mining semi-afk outside high-sec is semi suicidal. So one would expect more high-sec minerals to be mined.
3. Some changes is made to requirements in minerals. I'm not up to date on the exact details here. But I believe this only affect individual minerals and not all of them. (Somebody else can elaborate on this.)
In time I believe the system will reach an equilibrium again. This might take quite a while I think.
More miners will come into the system to increase the supply of minerals once again: -> This will slightly drop the mineral value.
Miners will shift from 0.0/w-space to high-sec as they feel the risk facter of the more valuable minerals are no longer worth it. -> This will firstly reduce the supply of 0.0 minerals and increase supply of high-sec minerals. -> Which will result in 0.0 mining becoming more profitable than high-sec mining once again.
drone region players will continue to shoot drones -> Meaning an increase in isk will continue to enter the system. -> The general increase in prices seen currently is expected to last. At least it is unlikely that prices return to what they where unless CCP influence the system again.
So yes isk/m3 on mining is increased. But the buying power of isk is decreased. So this balances out to some extent, although not fully. I believed the previous value of isk/hour for high-sec mining was lower than it should've been and are more happy with the new system. I sincerely hope that the 0.0 minerals will quickly become more valuable again to justify the risk in mining them.
*If you are not a miner your income have probably stayed the same which means your general effort required to afford your favourite ship have increased. Bad luck I suppose. Get a mining alt :D
The current system will doubtless result in less % players being in 0.0/w-space mining. The only way for this to be changed is if CCP somehow alters the supply or demand of minerals. Which I'm unsure they are willing to do. -> Nerfing high-sec will not help as this will likely once again reduce supply of high-sec minerals driving up their price even further. -> Buffing 0.0 will also not help as even less miners is then required to supply the required 0.0 minerals. -> The correct solution is to either reduce the demand of high-sec minerals or increase the demand of 0.0 minerals. And this means altering the blueprints. Good luck hoping CCP does that considering how happy everybody is bearing in high-sec now.
*My post have nothing to do with ICE so don't get confused.
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