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Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 13:26:00 - [31] Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 13:31:24 Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 13:29:56 Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 13:28:53 Immersion is NOT gameplay. It is something called 'Emergent play' which by defenition comes from interaction between players, and by defenition no part of game play design. That is why it is called emergent- it emerges from nothing, and has nothing to do with game design. There is nothing in CQ that augments game play, therefore nothing about it that augments the game itself. Logic. Saying CCP isn't responsible for bad hardware is putting the cart before the horse- as a game company their interest is in making a product that suits the majority of machines. CCP is responsible for bad software. Making a product prohibitive is bad business practice. If I am shortsighted in my logic, you are completely backward.. Challenge: Tell me one part of EVE, other than the CQ, which is by design not about spaceships
Takamori Maruyama Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.07.28 13:36:00 - [32] Edited by: Takamori Maruyama on 28/07/2011 13:37:43 Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 13:28:53 Immersion is NOT gameplay. It is something called 'Emergent play' which by defenition comes from interaction between players, and by defenition no part of game play design. That is why it is called emergent- it emerges from nothing, and has nothing to do with game design. There is nothing in CQ that augments game play, therefore nothing about it that augments the game itself. Logic. Saying CCP isn't responsible for bad hardware is putting the cart before the horse- as a game company their interest is in making a product that suits the majority of machines. CCP is responsible for bad software. Making a product prohibitive is bad business practice. They should had explore the CQ feature, be able to interact with other players docked in the station.That would add more imersion. As for the system Req for CQ, is not that absurd... For the gameplaye=/= immersion , I disagreed, when we choose a genre we choose because of the theme that is imersion+gameplay. Or we would be playing Pogo, pure gameplay, no story , no... nothing.
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 13:39:00 - [33] Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 13:41:18 Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 13:40:29 agreed they should have thought about CQ more. What I was getting at was the guy with the pickled brain calling me shortsighted for calling out their addition of a thing which has absolutely nothing to do with the core of the game play, which is flying ships. Designers never need to design a game with emergence in mind, the whole point is it would emerge on it's own.. And even pogo, given a fancy backdrop and setting, could be considered immerse, but that extra candy is NOT part of the game itself. They should stick to the creation of the GAME and leave the damn ponies in their bathroom stalls.
Takamori Maruyama Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.07.28 13:46:00 - [34] Then we are talking about game census, some players enjoy customization and barbie online, other gameplay etc etc. I understand why CCP took this move, customization adds more charisma to the game, makes the player attached to his avatar. So that would increase EVE popularity somehow. But they forgot they need to fix some stuff and add more features to keep the old players in the game.
Kraven Stark Caldari Atavism Industries	Posted - 2011.07.28 13:51:00 - [35] Originally by: Takamori Maruyama So that would increase EVE popularity somehow. It gives people something more familiar and more relatable to connect with. Being a ship is a lot harder to make a connection to for some people. It's a pretty basic concept in terms of immersion.
Aprie	Posted - 2011.07.28 13:51:00 - [36] TL;DR I want to have CCP's babies and run off with them to a snowy fantasy realm.
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 13:54:00 - [37] Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 13:54:44 There is role play and immersion in dress up paper dolls- that is not a game. If you believe EVE is about snowy fantasy unicorn pony barbie then there is another game available that would be more appropriate for the person with the TLDR attention span.
Kraven Stark Caldari Atavism Industries	Posted - 2011.07.28 13:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 13:54:44 There is role play and immersion in dress up paper dolls- that is not a game. If you believe EVE is about snowy fantasy unicorn pony barbie then there is another game available that would be more appropriate for the person with the TLDR attention span. So because CCP added a way for people to become more familiar with characters, suddenly the game is no longer about PvP, mission, pillaging and scamming? How are you defining an aspect that has no bearing on gameplay as the game?
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:00:00 - [39] Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 14:00:55 None of us, I assume, started playing this game because of a connection to our avatars. The game was still a game before CQ, and it was still fun, and immerse. While it may be true that immersion is good marketing, that is and will remain all it is- marketing, and not anything to do with what makes the game what it is. If however, they ever allow us to kill each other in stations, then that is game play in the context of the eve universe: dark, and competetive. PvP is player interaction. Alone in CQ is not. this stuff has no bearing on the way you play. It may take up some of your attention, but it is not gameplay.
Griselllda Blanco Old Popes Disco Club	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:02:00 - [40] Originally by: XGS Crimson Originally by: Griselllda Blanco Originally by: XGS Crimson In my opinion a lot of the people on this forum have been behaving like spoilt children in their conduct, and as always they have the option of leaving if they choose to. Although you might find it hard to believe those 'spoilt crying children' have had a positive effect on Eve and CCP. Please enlighten me, in what respect? Emergency meeting of CSM. Better communicated Dev blogs explaining the NEX.(better communication is good) Bug Hunters/fixers collecting data from players who are having heat and hardware issues.(because having more people running CQ is a good thing). The ability to disable the CQ for those players that had problems with it and multiple client users.(Because playing the spaceship part of this game is more important than a pretty room) The upcoming permanent fix that enables everybody to run the CQ and play the space ship game at the same time. (Because having more people using CQ is a good thing and the spaceship part is more important than a pretty room)
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:03:00 - [41] Just here to remind Spoogemati that Eve was never intended to be just a "game", its purpose and direction has ALWAYS been to evolve into a sci-fi simulator. Now, I ask you, how can it even begin to simulate a sci-fi world if you can't even get out of your ship? ______________________ "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:07:00 - [42] you can get out of your ship when I blow it up
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:10:00 - [43] Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 14:11:14 In a flight simulator, do you care about what color your helmet is? Does it make a difference to how you fly?
Takamori Maruyama Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:13:00 - [44] Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 14:11:14 In a flight simulator, do you care about what color your helmet is? Does it make a difference to how you fly? Some people enjoy the customization of how your airship looks :P aka Ace Combat. Sorry man , I understand your point, but customization is part of a game in these days.
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:16:00 - [45] apparently it is, but should it be? Should a company spend 5 years developing something that as we agree, has nothing to do with the core of play?
Kraven Stark Caldari Atavism Industries	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:20:00 - [46] Originally by: Spumantii apparently it is, but should it be? Should a company spend 5 years developing something that as we agree, has nothing to do with the core of play? So you think they spent five years developing the CQ, or do you think it is more reasonable that they spent 5 years developing many aspects of the game including the framework that allows a person to move around on foot? As for the value of the development, it may have none for you but it does for others. The point of immersion is to give people something to latch onto that can cause them to hang around the game longer. Hopefully CCP did what other companies do and researched this and saw numbers they liked.
Takamori Maruyama Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:25:00 - [47] To improve a product you need to make it desirable to the market and to the predominant customer baseline.So what is the market calling in these days? Customization ,immersion etc etc or shiny ponies w/e you prefer. I won't say casual marketing, because this sort of market is dead.Gaming is not the hit of moment anymore, now people will jump into tv series,and thats why kinetic will fail hard and nintendo switched their console philosophy ( but that is a talk for a another topic). I ask you, you want to keep playing Eve right? The company needs money to continue improving the game, be gameplay wise or be pony wise.The only thing they failed hard was the way they introduced it.They could have explored more the new features, studied more the customer option regards the apparel. So it lacked communication with the community. I would love to see the CEO engaging in this conversation.
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:26:00 - [48] Well, what impressed me about CCP for so long, was the fact that they didn't fall into the same trenches as other companies, and didn't require this stuff to have a fun game. They always claimed to be 'different' and the gameplay was the most important part. I am a believer in the fact that a game can and should be fun without a ton of fancy gimmicks. Take Minecraft as a perfect example. It is fun for many, and does not require a hi res 'station environment' for it's role play. Yes you can re-skin yourself, but the game was not designed around this for immersion. CCP went from hero to zero in my book with their recent moves to this end. I have trouble believing in future changes that will augment flying in space, if they clearly have abandoned their old ways, which made them unique, special. I play sports for example, because the game is fun, not because of the color of my uniform, or the behavior of the fans, or the style of the arena.
Takamori Maruyama Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:31:00 - [49] Well we are talking about RPG genre(EVE belongs to that context) Of course sports, afternoon tea and playing with your dog, wont involve customization.
Abriael VonRosen Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:36:00 - [50] Originally by: Spumantii Immersion is NOT gameplay. It is something called 'Emergent play' which by defenition comes from interaction between players, and by defenition no part of game play design. That is why it is called emergent- it emerges from nothing, and has nothing to do with game design. There is nothing in CQ that augments game play, therefore nothing about it that augments the game itself. Logic.[/QUOTE] gameplay is not the only element that determines the value of a game, especially a MMORPG. Immersion is a determining factor for many, and the ability to have a fully customizable character and not just a small portrait on top of a ship that's the same for everyone contributes to immersion. your logic is flawed by a narrow perception. [QUOTE]Saying CCP isn't responsible for bad hardware is putting the cart before the horse- as a game company their interest is in making a product that suits the majority of machines. CCP is responsible for bad software. Making a product prohibitive is bad business practice. [/QUOTE] You're the one putting the cart before the horse, as you somehow assume that the product doesn't work on the majority of machines. As far as I know you have absolutely no data on the percentage of computers affected by problems (nor you know how many of those are simply old and crappy systems, or one of the many badly built PCs with poor ventilation and cooling for which the owners can only blame themselves). Assuming that you're the majority online is quite a silly mistake. Finally, "working on the majority of machines" shouldn't mean "working on grandma's laptop with three accounts at the same time". [QUOTE]Challenge: Tell me one part of EVE, other than the CQ, which is [i]by design not about spaceships Challenge: tell me one reason why EVE should remain only about spaceships, besides your irrational resistance to any kind of evolution and expansion. -- Abriael Contributing Writer - DualShockers.com
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:38:00 - [51] Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 14:11:14 In a flight simulator, do you care about what color your helmet is? Does it make a difference to how you fly? As I said previously, Eve was never intended to be just a "game", nor was it ever designed to be a "space flight simulator". So your question above is pointless and way off base. ______________________ "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)
Takamori Maruyama Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:38:00 - [52] Now stuff that EVE should do to make it popular and maintaining the quality for the vets: 1) eliminate the unforgiving image of a cruel game, that you are doomed to mine asteroids if you suck. Try making podcasts, spread on youtube, try spreading free trial along popular game website, show the possibilities. 2)The cloth storing, again. make popular items, mid cost items and then after you see the micro transactions market evolve, you put some "enthusiast" items , like the monocle that everyone curse about it. 3)Try improving the old content that you guys have created along the EVE journey, fix the bugs that community point out and are considered game breaking. 4) I saw that Spumatti said that EvE is based on ships, create the ship customization, with decals and stuff :P.
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:47:00 - [53] Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 14:50:46 Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 14:48:29 I happen to know for a fact that a number of my mates can no longer play because of software issues on their hardware. This is not, as one said, an assumption. In case you haven't tried, it is now impossible to play 3 accounts if even one has the station environment loaded. If you have, in the likes of the colorful description, a power pc that 'your grandmother bought you as decoration for your parent's basement apartment' then congratulations. Some of us can't justify purchasing a new machine JUST for playing EVE. The guy above me nailed it with #4. If they were smarter, customization would have come in the form of ship parts and ship skins. "Challenge: tell me one reason why EVE should remain only about spaceships, besides your irrational resistance to any kind of evolution and expansion." Perhaps you should suggest football should no longer be about the movement of the ball. To the other comment, there is a distinction between 'simulation' and 'game' and if you fail to understand this you won't be enjoying the future of this one. Again, if you require station environment for your immersion, try playing something else. For 7 years, it was about flying ships, and I don't see any reason to change that, other than to pad wallets to satisfy a bunch of girly-men.
Takamori Maruyama Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:49:00 - [54] Building a new pc isnt a big issue like it was back in 2000. And you will need to upgrade one way or the other. No shame to admit that I built one just to play BF3 on max settings :x
Abriael VonRosen Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:56:00 - [55] Edited by: Abriael VonRosen on 28/07/2011 14:57:15 Originally by: Spumantii I happen to know for a fact that a number of my mates can no longer play because of software issues on their hardware. This is not, as one said, an assumption. "a number of your mates" is not a statistic. Quote: In case you haven't tried, it is now impossible to play 3 accounts if even one has the station environment loaded. And? As an aside, I'd say it'd be just about time to crack down on multiple accounts, since it falls flat on the "pay to win" category (funny how some people went berserk at the idea of "pay to win" options in the NEx, but a lot of them pay to win by running mulriple accounts), but in any case, this is the nature of the PC market. You want to play current games? Upgrade your PC. You don't want your game to be upgraded to stay current? See it slide back into obscurity as it becomes obsolete. Quote: Some of us can't justify purchasing a new machine JUST for playing EVE. And why, pray tell, you think you should hold back those of us that do invest in a decent gaming PC because you want to run three accounts at once on the same crappy machine? Try running three instances of any current game on any computer that's not top notch. See ho that treats you. Quote: The guy above me nailed it with #4. If they were smarter, customization would have come in the form of ship parts and ship skins. Oh that would be a nice thing to do. It doesn't change the fact that many MMORPG players want to play starship PILOTS, not starships, and that's one of the things that has held EVE back for many years. -- Abriael Contributing Writer - DualShockers.com
Maxx Q Omega	Posted - 2011.07.28 14:56:00 - [56] Originally by: Spumantii and I don't need a monocle, or fancy pants, or ponies to do so. Hey !!! I'm trying to find the ponies but I can't. You were just kidding I bet, right?
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 15:02:00 - [57] The ponies are firmly entrenched on the bathroom stall doors at CCP HQ, where they are no doubt decorated with bodily fluids daily. "And why, pray tell, you think you should hold back those of us that do invest in a decent gaming PC because you want to run three accounts at once on the same crappy machine?" I already told you, it's called prohibitive practice, and the smart way to sell any product is to make it available to the vast majority. If you think the current rendering engine for CQ is efficient, well, you don't know anything about graphics. They talked about 'real time AO' which is really worth the cp how, exactly? When baked in AO is just as convincing. It's nothing more than a useless gimmick which is not needed to make the game fun. I've heard the same thing from countless idiots who believe a game has to be beautiful to be fun. I'll just use minecraft again as an example. Since your fixation with statistics is so prominent, are you aware of the sales statistics for that game?
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 15:05:00 - [58] Edited by: Spumantii on 28/07/2011 15:07:26 "Try running three instances of any current game on any computer that's not top notch. See ho that treats you." Wait- you mean EVE as of 2 months ago? Yeah, it worked just fine. Since then at least 5 members of my 40 man corp dropped out because of issues with the software. Also, your comments regarding 'cracking down' on players who play multiple accounts because you should be able to run 3 on your power pc kind of defeats your point and makes you kind of a hypocrite
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.07.28 15:12:00 - [59] Edited by: Cearain on 28/07/2011 15:13:32 Originally by: XGS Crimson I've also been looking on the forums and reading up on what people have been thinking and saying about CCP and how they conduct their business, some I can agree is against the original order of things in this game, however in the ever changing and expanding world of business, and an economy that will force a company to do things it may not have originally intended on doing I can understand why they are doing it. .... Does todays expanding world of business force ccp to make game features that offer no gameplay? People keep saying things like you do above but it just doesn't make any sense. What other games are devoting all their work to a game where you just walk around and buy virtual clothes? That niche is filled by second life. I'm not saying they can't/shouldn't do something with incarna maybe 20 devs working for a year or so, thats reasonable. But the massive shift of resources for an indefinite timeperiod is of course upsetting to anyone who likes eve. But the idea that the business world somehow requires that game companies spend over 80% of their development resources for years on things that do not involve any actual gameplay needs some actual reasoning before it is to be believed. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Spumantii	Posted - 2011.07.28 15:13:00 - [60] ^ the guy above me nails it

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