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Paladin Tachs or Nightmare Tachs - what's better?

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ImInAmarr	Posted - 2011.08.01 12:05:00 - [1] For blitzing lvl 4s specifically, which is faster or more efficient, a Paladin with Tachyons or a Nightmare with Tachyons?
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.08.01 12:11:00 - [2] The Nightmare, simply because shield tanking lends itself better to missioning. Armor tanking is most useful when you're trying to apply ewar, and webs don't have the range to complement tachyons effectively. The Paladin also has some powergrid problems -- it's almost impossible to get 4 tachyons and a reasonable capacitor booster on that ship without gimping anything. The Paladin offers the ability to loot on the go, but you haven't really expressed any interest in that, so...
Takh Meir'noen Amarr 24th Imperial Recon	Posted - 2011.08.01 12:13:00 - [3] Edited by: Takh Meir''noen on 01/08/2011 12:14:01 Nightmare with tachs will out-DPS a Paladin, assuming they fit the same number/type of heat sinks. We're talking about 900 v 850 or so. And you'll need a faction repairer to fit 4 t2 tachs on a Paladin. I use a tracking computer and cap rechargers for missions, I don't bother with a web.
FT Diomedes Gallente Factio Paucorum	Posted - 2011.08.01 12:17:00 - [4] I prefer the Paladin. It is cheaper to fit. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.08.01 12:41:00 - [5] Edited by: Aamrr on 01/08/2011 12:47:12 Originally by: Takh Meir'noen Nightmare with tachs will out-DPS a Paladin, assuming they fit the same number/type of heat sinks. We're talking about 900 v 850 or so. Paladin and Nightmare both have 4 turrets. Both get a +100% role bonus to damage, and both get a +5% damage/level ship bonus. If they're fitting the same number of heat sinks, damage should be identical. (However, the Nightmare will probably manage to squeeze on an extra heat sink, amounting to ~6% more DPS) The real advantage of the Nightmare is powergrid. With a pair of T2 elutriation rigs and a capacitor booster, a Nightmare's capacitor needs are satisfied. After the Tachyons and large armor repairer, the Paladin doesn't have enough grid left to fit any of that, so you're left using local cap recharge. ...and with your midslots consumed by cap recharge, the Paladin simply can't fit as many tracking modules as the Nightmare, much less make up for the 25% tracking bonus it's missing. On the other hand, the Nightmare can't permatank to save its life, so if that's your thing then the Paladin is a better choice.
Shadowsword The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva	Posted - 2011.08.01 12:55:00 - [6] If you intend to do your missions in amarr space (to optimise the EM/therm dps), the Paladin is better. You can tank it with just 3 low slots, using faction/deadspace mods, and get it cap-stable with only the rigs and 2 mids. Which means there's a low of free slots for damage mods/web/tracking mods. A Nighmare can technically do the same thing and free the same number of slots, but not without fitting really expensives shield mods, which will make you gank-worthy. And with the Marauder skill maxed, there's no base dps difference between a Nightmare and a Paladin. ------------------------------------------
Martin Coffey	Posted - 2011.08.01 12:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Aamrr On the other hand, the Nightmare can't permatank to save its life, so if that's your thing then the Paladin is a better choice. you can help permatanking by fitting 2x medium nos in the spare highs. also makes you more ganksafe.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.08.01 13:46:00 - [8] I haven't flown a Paladin, but the Nightmare really does "DPS Tank" in Level 4s. Indeed, mine had 1T2 and 1x named EM hardeners for ages, because I forgot to get 2x T2 Photons, and found how little difference it made. The only expensive shield mod I used was a Pith B-type X-L, which really isn't enough to get you much attention from gankers. In a majority of missions I only used it to top up my shield after completing each room. Once I bought a Mach to do the Angel/Guristas missions, tank on the Nightmare became almost moot. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.08.01 14:07:00 - [9] Edited by: Aamrr on 01/08/2011 14:07:45 Medium nosferatu have a range of 12km. Nothing of significant enough size to nos gets within that range. The only problem is fitting. A pair of powergrid rigs make even the Nightmare's powergrid weep. I think I'd have the powergrid for mediums but only if I don't fit an afterburner. Ehh.
Martin Coffey	Posted - 2011.08.01 16:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 01/08/2011 14:07:45 Medium nosferatu have a range of 12km. Nothing of significant enough size to nos gets within that range. The only problem is fitting. A pair of powergrid rigs make even the Nightmare's powergrid weep. I think I'd have the powergrid for mediums but only if I don't fit an afterburner. Ehh. except, you know, tacklers who try to scramble and neut you. also, from what I heard, you can always nos from npc ships, so just leave two frigates who orbit closely as cap donors until you can turn off the shield booster.
Crabs Collector	Posted - 2011.08.01 17:22:00 - [11] Both ships have alot of dps. Wich one is better though all (duh!) depends on the situation. The paladin has a dps advantage on everything that flies close and/or fast, because of the webbing bonus. The nightmare does in general do more dps on ships that are further out because of the extra heatsinks it usually can fit. Btw, the nightmare tracking bonus does not give THAT much of an advantage in effective dps, since the paladin can fit 2 tracking computers without problem. The advantage though as already stated, are the extra heatsinks on the nightmare.
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.08.01 17:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Crabs Collector Both ships have alot of dps. Wich one is better though all (duh!) depends on the situation. The paladin has a dps advantage on everything that flies close and/or fast, because of the webbing bonus. The nightmare does in general do more dps on ships that are further out because of the extra heatsinks it usually can fit. Btw, the nightmare tracking bonus does not give THAT much of an advantage in effective dps, since the paladin can fit 2 tracking computers without problem. The advantage though as already stated, are the extra heatsinks on the nightmare. This probably sums it up the best but I will add the following; The NM is very much on the edge as it's shield tanked. IF you get into trouble where you end up with lots of short range targets and you're scrammed&webbed Sansha will tear your shields apart, while with the Pala you'll be fine, web them and kill them. And yes; a well fitted pala is less costly (and less of a gank target) than a NM.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.08.01 18:56:00 - [13] Nightmare has higher killing speed and better burst tank, paladin can loot/salvage while shooting and its easy to make it capstable. Paladin isnt less costly than nightmare, you dont fit web on l4 pally and you dont end up with lost of short range targets with neither of these ships.
Commander Disarray	Posted - 2011.08.01 21:16:00 - [14] Edited by: Commander Disarray on 01/08/2011 21:16:13 I have not flown a Nightmare yet, but here's my noob Paladin fit. I just got my first Paladin 2 weeks ago and I'm totally kicking ass with this T2 fit: Highs: 4 x Tachyon Beam Laser II 1 x Small Tractor Beam 2 x Salvager I Mids: 3 x Cap Recharger II 1 x Tracking Computer II Lows: 1 x Large Armor Repairer II 4 x Heat Sink II 2 x Damage Specific Hardeners Rigs: 1 x Large CCC I 1 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I I've one-shotted NPC cruisers in that fit but I'm pretty sure the Nighmare can do the same. I think the Paladin is a few hundred million cheaper too. The best thing: I still have to train Marauders 4 and 5 (Level 4 in the oven right now!), Large Beam Laser Specialization 5, Surgical Strike 5, and maybe something else to 5 so I still have more DPS and armor repair bonuses to come! Even now though, I'm blitzing with this all T2 fit very easily. Oh yea, the Paladin is terrible with PG, but I don't know if anyone mentioned PG implants. They help with all ships and it's what basically allowed me to fit 4 Tachyons with a Large Armor Repairer to this Paladin =D
Zarutha The Night Crew	Posted - 2011.08.02 07:22:00 - [15] Question: If I'm following my paladin with a noctis in missions, what would anyone recommend putting in my paladins 3 high slots instead of salvagers and tractors beams? Since I use my drones to take care of any short range threat I was thinking of the module that allows an extra drone, and possibly the one that increases drone navigation. Any other ideas? Thanks in advance!
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.08.02 08:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Commander Disarray 1 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I Wat.
Templatus	Posted - 2011.08.02 09:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Aamrr Originally by: Commander Disarray 1 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I Wat. Probably meant to write Aux Nano Pump. Because naturally using a Trimark on an actively tanked mission ship with no plates is just silly. --- Killing is just another way of living
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.02 12:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Zarutha Question: If I'm following my paladin with a noctis in missions, what would anyone recommend putting in my paladins 3 high slots instead of salvagers and tractors beams? Since I use my drones to take care of any short range threat I was thinking of the module that allows an extra drone, and possibly the one that increases drone navigation. Any other ideas? Thanks in advance! The module that allows an extra drone is for carriers only. The only non-capital ship that can field more then 5 drones is a Guardian Vexor and good luck getting one of those.
GenericPlayer24	Posted - 2011.08.02 14:39:00 - [19] Say what you will, but I have never had tracking problems in my paladin. Highs: 4x tach II 1x DLA 1x tractor 1x salvager Mids 3x tracking comps 1x cap recharger Lows: 4x heat sink 2x EANM 1x faction LAR Rigs: 2x cap recharge II I also have some cap + damage implants. Over a 30x damage mod. I kill everything except BS and frigates that are too close to me in one shot. More than enough cap. I ended up getting this after looking at the prices for the good shield boosters (holy crap). Upgrade things to faction as isk allows.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions	Posted - 2011.08.02 15:00:00 - [20] Originally by: Sjugar Originally by: Zarutha Question: If I'm following my paladin with a noctis in missions, what would anyone recommend putting in my paladins 3 high slots instead of salvagers and tractors beams? Since I use my drones to take care of any short range threat I was thinking of the module that allows an extra drone, and possibly the one that increases drone navigation. Any other ideas? Thanks in advance! The module that allows an extra drone is for carriers only. The only non-capital ship that can field more then 5 drones is a Guardian Vexor and good luck getting one of those. This. And also Drone Navigation Computers are mid slots. The only subcap drone mod that goes in a high slot is a Drone Link Augmentor, but on a ship that doesn't use sentries the usefulness of such a thing is questionable.
Matt Douglass	Posted - 2011.08.02 15:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Aamrr Originally by: Commander Disarray 1 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I Wat. wat indeed
Commander Disarray	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Matt Douglass Originally by: Aamrr Originally by: Commander Disarray 1 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I Wat. wat indeed Damn. Yes, I meant Auxilary Nano Pump, as mentioned earlier. Marauders skill grants bonus to hitpoints repaired from repairers. Don't know what I was thinking there.
Commander Disarray	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Zhilia Mann Originally by: Sjugar Originally by: Zarutha Question: If I'm following my paladin with a noctis in missions, what would anyone recommend putting in my paladins 3 high slots instead of salvagers and tractors beams? Since I use my drones to take care of any short range threat I was thinking of the module that allows an extra drone, and possibly the one that increases drone navigation. Any other ideas? Thanks in advance! The module that allows an extra drone is for carriers only. The only non-capital ship that can field more then 5 drones is a Guardian Vexor and good luck getting one of those. This. And also Drone Navigation Computers are mid slots. The only subcap drone mod that goes in a high slot is a Drone Link Augmentor, but on a ship that doesn't use sentries the usefulness of such a thing is questionable. So what can we stick in those three high slots if one isn't salvaging with the Paladin?
TheMahdi	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:15:00 - [24] You can fit faction smartbombs or a NOS. Both are useful in missions to some extent. But why wouldn't you salvage in a Marauder? There are plenty of missions worth salvaging a little as you go.
Headerman Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:54:00 - [25] Ehh, i dunno about a nos on a marauder, the PG is gimped to the max already :S
Lyris Nairn Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.08.04 00:11:00 - [26] Edited by: Lyris Nairn on 04/08/2011 00:11:52 Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 01/08/2011 12:47:12 Originally by: Takh Meir'noen Nightmare with tachs will out-DPS a Paladin, assuming they fit the same number/type of heat sinks. We're talking about 900 v 850 or so. Paladin and Nightmare both have 4 turrets. Both get a +100% role bonus to damage, and both get a +5% damage/level ship bonus. If they're fitting the same number of heat sinks, damage should be identical. (However, the Nightmare will probably manage to squeeze on an extra heat sink, amounting to ~6% more DPS) The real advantage of the Nightmare is powergrid. With a pair of T2 elutriation rigs and a capacitor booster, a Nightmare's capacitor needs are satisfied. After the Tachyons and large armor repairer, the Paladin doesn't have enough grid left to fit any of that, so you're left using local cap recharge. ...and with your midslots consumed by cap recharge, the Paladin simply can't fit as many tracking modules as the Nightmare, much less make up for the 25% tracking bonus it's missing. On the other hand, the Nightmare can't permatank to save its life, so if that's your thing then the Paladin is a better choice. Tracking is a part of Real DPS calculations, and you just admitted that the Nightmare can afford to have better tracking. Thus even with identical EFT DPS the Nightmare will outperform the Paladin.
Crabs Collector	Posted - 2011.08.04 06:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Lyris Nairn Edited by: Lyris Nairn on 04/08/2011 00:11:52 Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 01/08/2011 12:47:12 Originally by: Takh Meir'noen Nightmare with tachs will out-DPS a Paladin, assuming they fit the same number/type of heat sinks. We're talking about 900 v 850 or so. Paladin and Nightmare both have 4 turrets. Both get a +100% role bonus to damage, and both get a +5% damage/level ship bonus. If they're fitting the same number of heat sinks, damage should be identical. (However, the Nightmare will probably manage to squeeze on an extra heat sink, amounting to ~6% more DPS) The real advantage of the Nightmare is powergrid. With a pair of T2 elutriation rigs and a capacitor booster, a Nightmare's capacitor needs are satisfied. After the Tachyons and large armor repairer, the Paladin doesn't have enough grid left to fit any of that, so you're left using local cap recharge. ...and with your midslots consumed by cap recharge, the Paladin simply can't fit as many tracking modules as the Nightmare, much less make up for the 25% tracking bonus it's missing. On the other hand, the Nightmare can't permatank to save its life, so if that's your thing then the Paladin is a better choice. Tracking is a part of Real DPS calculations, and you just admitted that the Nightmare can afford to have better tracking. Thus even with identical EFT DPS the Nightmare will outperform the Paladin. You can easily fit 2 tracking computers on the paladin, so there isnt that much tracking advantage on the NM. Btw most people seem to fit cap boosters on the NM, wich you can also do on the paladin to get another free mid - and rig - slot.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.08.04 08:05:00 - [28] And even then nightmare will have 37,5% better tracking than paladin.
Crabs Collector	Posted - 2011.08.04 09:25:00 - [29] not with that 3rd tracking computer and free rig spot.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.08.04 09:50:00 - [30] Because l4 nightmares dont have free rigslots and dont use 2x tc + 1x te anyway.

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