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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2011.08.16 11:45:00 -
[1]
CCP Pollux's new blog details the report-a-bot feature and the work the EVE Security Task Force does.
DE RU
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Charles Javeroux
Gallente INTERSTELLAR CREDIT
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:09:00 -
[2]
Nice blog. Now we are well prepared to bring the bot-paranoia to new heights
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Bruno Bummel
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:14:00 -
[3]
Awesome to see that finally actions are beeing taken against this mayor issue.
Crowdsourcing the initial identification of suspects seems to be a good start, for Highsec.
But what about bots that operate deep in regions of EVE where there is no real people to notice them. Are automatic detection routines in place to check on people online 23.5/7 that are doing the same thing all day long? A little confirmation that this is beeing worked on is more than enough.
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Amsterdam Conversations
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:21:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Bruno Bummel Awesome to see that finally actions are beeing taken against this mayor issue.
Crowdsourcing the initial identification of suspects seems to be a good start, for Highsec.
But what about bots that operate deep in regions of EVE where there is no real people to notice them. Are automatic detection routines in place to check on people online 23.5/7 that are doing the same thing all day long? A little confirmation that this is beeing worked on is more than enough.
No, I have dozens of botters in my contacts who are online 23/7.
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Amsterdam Conversations
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:27:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Amsterdam Conversations on 16/08/2011 12:27:30 I also hope that players will receive a warning before "actions are taken" against their account. This is even more important since players petitioning botters don't receive any feedback, even if it is negative.
Like I said, I have dozens of 0.0 ratting bots on my watchlist, 80% of them are online a month after I petitioned them (and yeah, these are definitely bots). So I reported them as bots seperately.
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Dierdra Vaal
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:36:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 16/08/2011 12:42:53 Will future devblogs expand on your succesful persecution of certain types of bots?
While a 'how to use Report Bot' devblog is ok, it's not nearly as interesting as showing the actual results. Or in other words: how have the efforts of the ESTF made EVE a better place?
Also: would it be possible to release a picture showing in what areas the 'report bot' function has been used the most (or in what areas you've found the most bots, if you have other ways to detect them as well)? Sort of Colour Stars By -> Bots Found.
Veto #205 * * * Director Emeritus at EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:39:00 -
[7]
While it's great that you are doing something, report-a-bot button isn't that great. I'm more interested in what kind of automated defenses you are implementing, also we need statistics of bans, cuz now I have no idea how many you ban and if you even react to those reports.
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Shauku Nyal
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:40:00 -
[8]
I approve of this blog and look forward the next installment.
Do bot hunters get bounty rewards? :D |
Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:45:00 -
[9]
While it is important to highlight to everyone how to report and recognise bots I also would like to know how many people are caught with this system (graphs!).
I would also like to know in what way people are considered "blacklisted" or "on parole" after being caught red-botted. Are their additional accounts also targetted or just the one caught botting.
Does CCP security have acces to payment data so it can easily round up all the accounts of one person (or family/group) and put them under the loop also? Are "know assosciates" looked at to? - Hilmar getur ekki tala= vi= ¦ig n·na, hann er a= fara ß japanska Tfskuverslun.
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Hayaishi
Gallente Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:45:00 -
[10]
Cannot help but sense that human operated miners who have a repetitive nature will be reported a heck of a lot.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:49:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Chribba on 16/08/2011 12:57:56 Hopefully it will be for the better. Keep up the good work!
also edit/I would like Pollux view input on automated login... software(?). There are password manager software out there that have limited types of macro features, so that they will auto-fill in your user details for websites, programs, etc
What is the stance on using said technique to make the login proceedure easier, as configured properly all needed to do from the password manager is to press "go" kinda - for example KeePass has such features.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | in-game 'Holy Veldspar' Now /w voice |
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Mors Magne
Astral Adventure
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:53:00 -
[12]
I wonder if this encourages small talk in local?
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WarpCore Breacher
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Posted - 2011.08.16 12:55:00 -
[13]
Hi there will there be bulls eyes painted on there ships. If they are Bots and if so can we shoot them when they are like that if so no concord offence or stats loss? That would be great, then we know its okay. Thanks Another pile of ore. Need a hauling ship. That when ships are on the bot program free shooting and no concord could this be true? Wow Can't wait.
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Forest Hill
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 16/08/2011 12:42:53 Also: would it be possible to release a picture showing in what areas the 'report bot' function has been used the most (or in what areas you've found the most bots, if you have other ways to detect them as well)? Sort of Colour Stars By -> Bots Found.
This! I second the call for stats/graphs, but what Deirdra suggests would be even better.
The request for taking a look at 'known associates': definitely necessary - agreed!
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Eric Deloitte
The Flowing Penguins
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:03:00 -
[15]
Its the human miners with OCD I feel sorry for in all of this
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onefineday
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:14:00 -
[16]
how can you know its a bot mabby this person is quiet and does not want to interact whit a neutral, he so him and went to poss straight away how can you be sure is booting, at least the person ho is reported to be a bot shuld be contacted by some service and as kt few qvestions or so because i can report any one ho is afk mabby what he is a bot it stupid
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Ya Huei
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:16:00 -
[17]
lemme explain how to fix botting:
1. select all pilot currently in nullsec where shiptype = hulk 2. ban each and every one of them 3. fixed.
guaranteed 99% efficiency, near 0 effort :P
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:24:00 -
[18]
Looks like it is time to do a roam through the East!
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Armonda Secheh
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:32:00 -
[19]
may i ask how do u intend to get 00-space botuser reportet? They ¦ll warp to savespot / dock at station everytime a not-blue-standing pilot is entering the system.
It¦s a nice idea and may be the fear of highsec botuser, but the bigfishes ¦ll be untouched.
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Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:38:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hayaishi Cannot help but sense that human operated miners who have a repetitive nature will be reported a heck of a lot.
That is my concern as well.
Also, it seems to me that instead of CCP explicitly requiring players to be quite certain before they report a bot, it'd be better if CCP implemented a "Report Suspected Bot" function, with the server totalling such "votes", and once any given pilot has gotten a certain number of votes from different players, within a certain span of time, say 10 votes within 30 days, the actions of that pilot becomes subject to automatic scrutiny, and possibly some automatic script testing. If this automatic scrutiny suggests that it could be a bot, manual scrutiny happens. If manual scrutiny says it's a bot, it's banhammer time.
Pilots with more than a certain number of non-expired bot votes, say more than 2 votes, could also be marked in overview, so that other players know there may be something to watch for here.
In this way, players can feel more free to report a suspected bot, instead of having to play detectives, and players who abuse the function, and generate heaps of false positives, can hae the option to report suspected boths taken away from them, for some months, or permanently (players who generate many false positives should also perhaps receive a warning).
I think that CCP's current implementation will both generate too many false positives, and at the same time will not catch a whole lot of botters. It's better than nothing, but is a bit of a blunt instrument.
And I second all the calls for published statistics. I, too, want to see the body count.
-- Salpad |
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Efraya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:41:00 -
[21]
FINALLY!
Thanks CCP. Signature removed for not being EVE related. Zymurgist |
Myxx
Atropos Group
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:43:00 -
[22]
Now to go back to my old stomping grounds which was full of them...
muahahahahahahaha. --
Originally by: CCP Explorer (and if you guys would also stop using Drakes it would be really appreciated, kthxbye).
Originally by: Tom Gerard
Then again... I am a moron.
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Armonda Secheh may i ask how do u intend to get 00-space botuser reportet? They ¦ll warp to savespot / dock at station everytime a not-blue-standing pilot is entering the system.
It¦s a nice idea and may be the fear of highsec botuser, but the bigfishes ¦ll be untouched.
Don't be red?
The use of the report bot feature cannot be detected by your alliance leadership. This sounds like a good use of spies. Fly about and report all the bots.
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hayaishi Cannot help but sense that human operated miners who have a repetitive nature will be reported a heck of a lot.
Sepcially the ones that have the same name ended in different numbers (i.e. name1, name2, name3, from the Name family ), always keep their hardeners on, never use drones and never react to being locked by a player...
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Glaso Fruixette
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Posted - 2011.08.16 13:54:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Glaso Fruixette on 16/08/2011 13:56:29 Actually it's quite simple to spot a bot. -It has a chinese or a "dkjsdfjdfh" name -They undock in mass -They all fly in ravens
I see this every day after 18h eve time.
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demonfurbie
Minmatar Drunken Wookies BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.08.16 14:07:00 -
[26]
best .... dev blog ..... EVER
here i come drf space with my army of cloaky alts
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Vidfarne
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Posted - 2011.08.16 14:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Hayaishi Cannot help but sense that human operated miners who have a repetitive nature will be reported a heck of a lot.
That is my concern as well.
Also, it seems to me that instead of CCP explicitly requiring players to be quite certain before they report a bot, it'd be better if CCP implemented a "Report Suspected Bot" function, with the server totalling such "votes", and once any given pilot has gotten a certain number of votes from different players, within a certain span of time, say 10 votes within 30 days, the actions of that pilot becomes subject to automatic scrutiny, and possibly some automatic script testing. If this automatic scrutiny suggests that it could be a bot, manual scrutiny happens. If manual scrutiny says it's a bot, it's banhammer time.
Pilots with more than a certain number of non-expired bot votes, say more than 2 votes, could also be marked in overview, so that other players know there may be something to watch for here.
In this way, players can feel more free to report a suspected bot, instead of having to play detectives, and players who abuse the function, and generate heaps of false positives, can hae the option to report suspected boths taken away from them, for some months, or permanently (players who generate many false positives should also perhaps receive a warning).
I think that CCP's current implementation will both generate too many false positives, and at the same time will not catch a whole lot of botters. It's better than nothing, but is a bit of a blunt instrument.
And I second all the calls for published statistics. I, too, want to see the body count.
Well, I do hope CCP also monitors the players who makes the reports, just spamming "Report botter" should also be a banable offence.
As a side note, I remember when the real goons mass petitioned all BoB super capital pilots for account sharing, just simply because it was possible within the game mechanics...
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Cassina Lemour
Minmatar Staner Industries
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Posted - 2011.08.16 14:20:00 -
[28]
I've noticed a decline in mining bots, but there are others, the most annoying type are the complex camping bots, which won't be making lots of repetitive actions, but equally unfair.
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SwissChris1
Playboy Delivery Service S E D I T I O N
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Posted - 2011.08.16 14:22:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Armonda Secheh may i ask how do u intend to get 00-space botuser reportet? They ¦ll warp to savespot / dock at station everytime a not-blue-standing pilot is entering the system.
It¦s a nice idea and may be the fear of highsec botuser, but the bigfishes ¦ll be untouched.
QFT!
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.08.16 14:24:00 -
[30]
Looking forward to all the tears from people banned for reporting falsely because no one wants to talk to them ..
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Armonda Secheh
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Posted - 2011.08.16 14:35:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Armonda Secheh on 16/08/2011 14:36:19
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Armonda Secheh may i ask how do u intend to get 00-space botuser reportet? They ¦ll warp to savespot / dock at station everytime a not-blue-standing pilot is entering the system.
It¦s a nice idea and may be the fear of highsec botuser, but the bigfishes ¦ll be untouched.
Don't be red?
The use of the report bot feature cannot be detected by your alliance leadership. This sounds like a good use of spies. Fly about and report all the bots.
Spies won¦t blow their cover just about some boting-toons, but may be it is an option to add entire systems to a watchlist for extra survaliance by anti-bot-forces i.e. select * from System_nps_kills > 1000 & spacesec < 0.0 for last 12 hours or select * from System_mining_amount > 1k¦ m¦ & spacesec < 0.0 for last 4 hours
Originally by: SwissChris1
QFT!
??
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.08.16 14:36:00 -
[32]
Thanks for this, but I have some questions about the implementation. Was it intentional that this option is not available from the right-click menu? Are you trying to make it harder to find so people don't hit it accidentally or so people don't find it too easily and abuse it? As it is, the average player will never find this on his own. He has to be shown where it is.
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David Carel
Caldari Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.16 14:50:00 -
[33]
This is just a fancy button for a petition anyway.
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Forest Hill
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Posted - 2011.08.16 15:02:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Forest Hill on 16/08/2011 15:02:18
Originally by: Vincent Athena This sounds like a good use of spies. Fly about and report all the bots.
It's not spying.. it's economic sabotage. Even better! This could become a new profession
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Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.08.16 15:37:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Claire Voyant Thanks for this, but I have some questions about the implementation. Was it intentional that this option is not available from the right-click menu? Are you trying to make it harder to find so people don't hit it accidentally or so people don't find it too easily and abuse it? As it is, the average player will never find this on his own. He has to be shown where it is.
I know! How about CCP post a devblog telling everyone where it is?
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Mezmeriza
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Posted - 2011.08.16 15:42:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Mezmeriza on 16/08/2011 15:46:24 Which really means that CCP wants all the good people of EVE to police their own game. And has a few problems:
1) Finding the bots. Have CCP looked at the map recently? Look at the amount of space held by the DRF/DC/ Test/ROL/etc. If they wanted to bot, they could any number of quiet systems and leave them in secure knowledge that the only people that will even see them wil be other people in the alliance possibly doing the same thing. They aint going to get reported. Any of the large space holding entities will not be bothered.
2) Bots have a wonderful things built in like cloaks, warp to pos and even log off scripts. Some even have auto respond to messages in local. So once you find a suspect, you will probably have to sit around for a really long time to find out. If they cloak, they wont uncloak and continue ratting untill you log off / leave system. If they go to a pos same thing. And if they log off in some way. They may not log back in for 2 hours. You guna wait that long?? And feel free to say "Hi" in local, they will respond and then act like they're ignoring you. Going to a POS/ cloaking/ logging off doesnt always mean they're a bot, just not stupid if your a red/ neut. They probably wont if your blue but would you report a corp mate/ alliance mate?
3) Some of these bot owners will not give 2 tears about it, as they will have other accounts to use while 1 of their accounts is supsended for a gruelling 14 days. Oh NOOEES!! Thats a massive loss for them compared to the last 2 years theyve been running none stop 23/7/365 at 500M+ per day. And linking those bots to main accounts will be likely impossible due to transactions being done inside corps and you cant ban an enitre corp and that the people will more than likely be using dedicated bot PCs so as not to disturb normal eve play so IP checking wont help. And even if they get banned, its not a problem for it is just one char. They can just start another using the massive isk already generated to buy the GTCs till the char can fly a basic drake to perma rat.
A more simple solution would be to have a nice simple program that just logs time played per char. 1 person would be extremely unlikely to rat in 1 system for more than 10 hours a day. This action of being online and ratting solid for 10 hours using this program could/ SHOULD throw up flags to the CCP overlords. They can then investigate it properly by looking at actions and history of actions. Surely that isnt going to make that much difficulty for the servers. After all, all it is doing is logging time online. Capped at 10 hours is a fair thing. And any char online for 23 hours is a deffo bot if ratting that whole time. When found they should just perma ban that character, and IF they found the name of the main char/ account, that account should also get the ban. Another method of proof required to ban the account, the char will never have had a payment made to it. It will have been purely GTCs. Proof of alt as someone had to buy them in the first place. More expensive than subscribing to EVE directly, and no card/payment to link accounts.
To sum this up...
YOUR IDEA IS FLAWED
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Neyko Turama
Minmatar RAGNAROK INDUSTRY
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Posted - 2011.08.16 16:14:00 -
[37]
Quote: Try to determine if the player you are observing seems to act repetitively according to a strict set of rules (for example, executing the same steps over and over for an extended period of time)
So, i¦m supposed to do ccp¦s work? and...of course, pay for it?
interesting.
this is going to fail.
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Lemming Lass
Minmatar Lemmings Online
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Posted - 2011.08.16 16:29:00 -
[38]
Just put up a Captcha from time to time to verify real players. During mining, between rat waves, while warping, before undocking, etc. Consistant failure to quickly respond will identify the bots.
There, problem solved.
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Lemming Lass Just put up a Captcha from time to time to verify real players. During mining, between rat waves, while warping, before undocking, etc. Consistant failure to quickly respond will identify the bots.
There, problem solved.
CAPTCHAs have been broken. You have the bot send the image to a company in India that has a person type in the answer, for some quite small fee.
So all they will do is annoy real players.
Also just so everyone knows: CCP has been doing their own Bot hunting and killing. Other posters have indicated that the bot "roid ripper" has been pretty much eliminated from existence by CCP efforts. To see the effect for yourself, look at ice prices over the last year. CCP efforts were stepped up around March-April.
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frank frank
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:14:00 -
[40]
sreegs
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Byron D
GoneMental
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:18:00 -
[41]
Originally by: demonfurbie best .... dev blog ..... EVER
here i come drf space with my army of cloaky alts
Right behind you mate :)
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:21:00 -
[42]
Awesome!
Now you just have to automate a Polaris frigate team to come nuke all these botters!
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Lemming Lass
Minmatar Lemmings Online
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:29:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Lemming Lass Just put up a Captcha from time to time to verify real players. During mining, between rat waves, while warping, before undocking, etc. Consistent failure to quickly respond will identify the bots.
There, problem solved.
CAPTCHAs have been broken. You have the bot send the image to a company in India that has a person type in the answer, for some quite small fee.
Well that's clever, if something of a drag, but can that process happen *quickly* enough? A consistent pause in the response should be detectable. This is important because bots could simply identify a captcha request and sound an alarm, bringing in an AFK "player". Also, would the fee be so small for custom, random events as opposed to bulk hacking?
Originally by: Vincent Athena
So all they will do is annoy real players.
I'm not suggesting a frequency rate that would annoy. Only those that failed to quickly respond to the rare captcha would be tested more often until a pattern could be established. And perhaps this "report a bot" thing could initiate a captcha as a first, automated test. But then, if as you say, the captcha process is outsourced and if it has virtually no lag, then the point would be moot, at least for those willing to pay.
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Mrs Brisby
Caldari Cambridge Support
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:41:00 -
[44]
I still feel that bots that are in NPC corps should be able to be fired on if there confirmed bots by CCP. Let the players punish the bots, banning them will just make then create a new account, hit them where it hurts by blowing there ships up. that and its more fun!
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tastypotatoes
Minmatar Underway Mining and Ops
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:52:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Mrs Brisby I still feel that bots that are in NPC corps should be able to be fired on if there confirmed bots by CCP. Let the players punish the bots, banning them will just make then create a new account, hit them where it hurts by blowing there ships up. that and its more fun!
This! I would definitely quit my mining job, hop in my Hurricane, and pod some bot miners.
At Hulk prices being around 200M, podding them again and again would definitely hurt their profits. >:)
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DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente Best Path Inc. Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:59:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Lemming Lass Snip
I'd rather put Captchas to players that get reported, but only when they are safe and not under direct threat from other players.
1. Set "bot_reported_flag" as an additional player attribute. Default is FALSE. 2. User reports a player. 3. Reported player gets "bot_reported_flag = TRUE". 4. If reported player is cloaked / docked / inside POS forcefield / etc, send Captcha. 5. If player passes, set "bot_reported_flag = FALSE". If not, do the usual thing with Captchas.
Checking the player's location may add a bit more cycles to the Sol node refresh, but takes the logical step by specifically hunting down bots programmed to move to safety when local changes, etc. At the very least it will make botting a bit more expensive. -----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Zulu It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only.
...... We'll see. |
Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.08.16 18:06:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lemming Lass ......CAPTCHA stuff.......
Im not sure how fast it is. My guess is it would be hard to tell the difference between a player being careful and a bot. Some people have trouble with those.
I also have no idea how the pricing is done, but it could be bulk if its routed through a central bot site, like the site where the bot is sold.
There is also the idea of building CAPTCHA's into the mining process itself. For example, replace the roid field with a couple of single large roids, and make it so different parts of the roid can be independently targeted. Then have the surface deposits show as a crystal pattern. Target the right pattern and mine, you get ore. Target at random, 90% chance you get nothing.
Or have small roids in orbit about the single big one. If you do not watch and fly your ship, one will hit you and bump you out of miner range.
But we must remember, the big isk is made by the Sanctum running bots in null.
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Lemming Lass
Minmatar Lemmings Online
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Posted - 2011.08.16 18:07:00 -
[48]
Originally by: DeftCrow Redriver
Originally by: Lemming Lass Snip
I'd rather put Captchas to players that get reported, but only when they are safe and not under direct threat from other players.
Yes, absolutely, there are plenty of opportunities during "non-hostile" game play. Captchas even when rats are around would not be acceptable.
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Lemming Lass
Minmatar Lemmings Online
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Posted - 2011.08.16 18:27:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Lemming Lass ......CAPTCHA stuff.......
There is also the idea of building CAPTCHA's into the mining process itself. For example, replace the roid field with a couple of single large roids, and make it so different parts of the roid can be independently targeted. Then have the surface deposits show as a crystal pattern. Target the right pattern and mine, you get ore. Target at random, 90% chance you get nothing.
Or have small roids in orbit about the single big one. If you do not watch and fly your ship, one will hit you and bump you out of miner range.
What, and make mining a little more interesting? Blasphemy! /snark
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Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.08.16 18:29:00 -
[50]
Are there still low sec areas where never ending parades of bots do courier missions?
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Dex Ironmind
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Posted - 2011.08.16 19:18:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Dex Ironmind on 16/08/2011 19:32:14 Edited by: Dex Ironmind on 16/08/2011 19:23:57 Appreciate the small move on the BOT front. BOTTING is a major sandbox game changer and a big reason why NULL holds no allurement to me.
It will take a lot more than this small move to win the battle against BOTS, or at least control it. Until you deal with them on a client level or add some dynamic features to all elements of space that occur frequently and randomly, these BOTS will have the run of the place, particularly in the deep recesses of NULL where big alliances control everything that goes on.
DYNAMIC game features would be your ticket here. Make it a miserable for a BOT program to work consistently, but interactive and dynamic for a real miner.
For example, if mining BOTS have to reset their software every five to ten minutes because their ship got attacked by NPCS more often, AND an asteroid released a gas that they had to react to in a certain amount of time or their mining lasers or ship gets blown up AND their strip mining disrupted the orbit of an asteroid and it headed for their ship knocking it out of range of the asteroid belt, damaging their ship in some way and shutting off their lasers unless they moved. Even something as simple as equipment malfunctions (jammed conveyor, broken mining laser, etc.) would be effective. There are any other of number of dynamics, interactivities and variables you could come up with to make mining more interesting and BOT proof. They just have to happen frequently and randomly.
Make the mechanics of mining more dynamic and interactive and will you not only have another deterrence to botting, you will have made an otherwise mindless and mundane element of your game more interesting for those who actually get out there and do it.
You can do the same with cargo missions. Add an element where an agent gives an in course correction and sends them elsewhere (keeping those places quite random). Cancel a mission midway and have the agent call the pilot back to home base for his reward. Dynamic elements that switch things up that leave the BOT sitting in space doing nothing until it is reset.
The more annoying it is to BOT and the more it has to be micromanaged, the more casual botters you will get to give it up. There will always be hardcore botters. That is an inevitability, but keep them hopping with dynamic and randomly interactive elements that can be easily twinked and changed by your developers and GMs is your ticket to success here. It gives the rest of us some fun too. WIN/WIN.
Dex was here.
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The Offerer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.16 19:25:00 -
[52]
One really helpful tool to identify and track down bots was standings tab in the character info. It allowed us not only to make sure that some character is a bot (unrealistic corporate/faction standings considering the age of the character) but it allowed to track them down to a bot HQ at at that time - Waskisen and to find out that the majority is working exclusively for one corporation - Corporate Police Force. Although I'm not playing that much lately, I've jumped to Waskisen a couple of days ago and my statement from the thread where I've reported 99 bots and described their behavior still stands - Corporate Police Force station in Waskisen system could be obliterated with everyone in it and you'll have only ~20% of actual human's property destroyed. All other CPF stations in the area of 5 jumps from Waskisen are heavily infected as well (Irjunen being the worst of them) and Ohmahailen-Ansila area isn't looking any brighter either. By the way, 99 were reported then; the actual number was closer to 250. Some of them are inactive for a long time, but the rest are still active.
Sadly, I don't have much time to play, let alone dedicate to hunt bots, but that could change in the near future (depending how well my RL job goes in the next couple of weeks). Until then, I'd like to have the answers to a couple of questions, if it's not too much of a problem for you to answer it:
- Is there any other reason to completely remove character standings from the Info window other than reducing server load? - Are you planning to bring it back in some form (soon)?
It's just too much work without any direct reward to detect the bots. Having at least standings tool available again would make it slightly more manageable.
Thank you for your time. |
Gunther Krupp
|
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:01:00 -
[53]
I have not read the comments, yet. But reading the devblog, some things came to my mind immediately:
Make the button to report a bot only usable for non-trial-accounts to reduce abuses. Otherwise a heavy bot-using-entity (exempli gratia alliance or corporation) could make their players create trial-accounts to spam the button on any player which would render the whole thing useless.
Next thing to consider: Do NOT give botters a second (or even third) chance! If this cannot be done for some weird (financial) matters, then add a counter to the character sheet, so everyone can see how far away from the abyss this character is. This would help in selling characters via ISK. Otherwise it could be abused, too, by going for the two temporary bans and then selling the character purchasing a new one to compensate and carry on with the whole thing.
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Morgal Detage
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Posted - 2011.08.16 20:08:00 -
[54]
I think the simplest way to check if people in a null sec system are botting (responding to reds/neuts entering the system and warping to safe and cloaking) is to bring in a GM player in the system set as blue to everyone in there, then change his standing to red and (with node logging enabled) see how long it takes for the "players" to initiate a warp to a safe. Then change it back and watch them decloak and warp back to their belts (all without the local count changing).
Shouldn't take THAT long to check a system in this way especially if you have some nice automated tools.
Gareth / Morgal
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Celebris Nexterra
Gallente Jupiter Force
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Posted - 2011.08.16 20:10:00 -
[55]
CCP response maybe? There have been several good questions asked so far.
Originally by: Bruno Bummel
[truncated]
But what about bots that operate deep in regions of EVE where there is no real people to notice them. Are automatic detection routines in place to check on people online 23.5/7 that are doing the same thing all day long? A little confirmation that this is beeing worked on is more than enough.
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 16/08/2011 12:42:53 Will future devblogs expand on your succesful persecution of certain types of bots?
While a 'how to use Report Bot' devblog is ok, it's not nearly as interesting as showing the actual results. Or in other words: how have the efforts of the ESTF made EVE a better place?
Also: would it be possible to release a picture showing in what areas the 'report bot' function has been used the most (or in what areas you've found the most bots, if you have other ways to detect them as well)? Sort of Colour Stars By -> Bots Found.
Originally by: Eric Deloitte Its the human miners with OCD I feel sorry for in all of this
^and lol.
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Malevolence. Imperial 0rder
|
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:11:00 -
[56]
Welcome Pollux.
One thing I've never understood. 2nd offense should be a permaban right away.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Norse'Storm Battle Group Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:18:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Hayaishi Cannot help but sense that human operated miners who have a repetitive nature will be reported a heck of a lot.
This is my only concern with this. Player miners behave a lot like bot miners.
Which is really indicative of a problem with mining. --Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Jane Madres
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Posted - 2011.08.16 20:24:00 -
[58]
Some things to think about. 1) the ship your in was probibly made from minerals bot mined in some way. Unless your mining it by yourself, you probibly got some from a bot miner. 2) this would cause a huge lack of ore. This will force you all to go mine instead of PEW PEW. 3) Pos's will be all un-powered in months. no one to fuel your r&d efforts anymore, bpc will rocket in price. 4) The Plex market will become un-stable. As goods become more expencive to craft, "extra" cash you have will be eaten up like the cost of gas IRL does for your real account. you wont have enough to buy free game time as the only method you had to reach the amounts needed is gone, so poor players who depend on rich players will be SOL.\ 5) Players will leave in numbers. As you force people to spend time doing the Care Bear thing, people get the idea that hay im waiting my time trying to play a game im paying for. basicly people will look for a game that has a higher fun to work ratio. 6) Dont we pay the Devs to do this for us?? 7) who will you steal ice from for kicks? ect ect. |
Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.08.16 20:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jane Madres Some things to think about. 1) the ship your in was probibly made from minerals bot mined in some way. Unless your mining it by yourself, you probibly got some from a bot miner. 2) this would cause a huge lack of ore. This will force you all to go mine instead of PEW PEW. 3) Pos's will be all un-powered in months. no one to fuel your r&d efforts anymore, bpc will rocket in price. 4) The Plex market will become un-stable. As goods become more expencive to craft, "extra" cash you have will be eaten up like the cost of gas IRL does for your real account. you wont have enough to buy free game time as the only method you had to reach the amounts needed is gone, so poor players who depend on rich players will be SOL.\ 5) Players will leave in numbers. As you force people to spend time doing the Care Bear thing, people get the idea that hay im waiting my time trying to play a game im paying for. basicly people will look for a game that has a higher fun to work ratio. 6) Dont we pay the Devs to do this for us?? 7) who will you steal ice from for kicks? ect ect.
Must be hard to get that much bullcrap into that little space....
Like always, the market will balance everything out. First of all, when mining gets more profitable, more ppl will start or go back to doing it. Second, demand will adjust too. If losing ships with high mineral count gets too expensive, ppl will flock to ships with less minerals.
As for forcing ppl to do care bear things, I take it most of the hardcore pvp-crowd is involved in carebeary things already, be it manufacturing, ratting, mining, missioning, exploration etc etc. PLEX market 'unstable'? Huh, prices on the PLEX market fluctuate like any other price, I guess that makes it unstable to begin with?
Stop whining and go report a bot!
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.08.16 20:57:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Gunther Krupp .......
Next thing to consider: Do NOT give botters a second (or even third) chance! If this cannot be done for some weird (financial) matters, then add a counter to the character sheet, so everyone can see how far away from the abyss this character is. This would help in selling characters via ISK. Otherwise it could be abused, too, by going for the two temporary bans and then selling the character purchasing a new one to compensate and carry on with the whole thing.
CCP said somewhere that those who have gotten one strike only go on to get a second 8% of the time. (I think in the May CSM meeting minutes). So the 3 strikes policy seems to get results: most do in fact stop botting and play fair.
The strike is against the account, not the pilot. In fact CCP will ban all the player's accounts if one is found botting, even those not botting. There have been tears about this on the botting forums. Selling a character and buying a new one does not remove a strike. Nor does buying a character from a botting account "soil" you, at least not with CCP.
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Grady Eltoren
Minmatar Aviation Professionals for EVE
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Posted - 2011.08.16 21:04:00 -
[61]
For all those looking for statistics on effectiveness - STOP ASKING. A good magician never reveals his tricks. In other words - CCP shouldn't tell us (and thus any bot user who might be reading it) their tricks of the trade and results. This is to stop any information from being gleamed and thus used back against CCP.
So STOP ASKING. Just be happy CCP is doing more and arming the citizens of New Eden to fight to keep EVE fair.
Flame on!
/Grady
Aviation Professionals for EVE (APEVE)
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Riffix
The Graduates
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Posted - 2011.08.16 21:06:00 -
[62]
As good as this feature is, I really think there needs to be some feedback for people who use the feature, especially for those who generate too many false-positives. "Lead, follow, or get the #@$@#$ out of the way" |
idea
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Posted - 2011.08.16 22:18:00 -
[63]
I'm loving how CCP always wants there player base to do there job for them...
Report a bot - "If you are wrong you could be banned"
First of all i just wanna congratulate CCP on failing at this task for this long.
Second of all here are a few methods to detect bots:
Method 1: 1. NPC kills per null sec system from 100-400 per hour 2. activity drops when population is more than 1? 3. if not is member same corp or same alliance? 4. Activity more than x hours per day x days a month?
Method 2: 1. Amount of missions per day more than x 2. Character runs missions for same agent continuously without breaks?
Method 3: 1. Mining for more than x hours per day? 2. Mining x many days a month?
Seriously, if any of so called "normal time estimate" are reached then you have a very high chance of a BOT and there for he should be investigated.
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Celebris Nexterra
Gallente Jupiter Force
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Posted - 2011.08.16 23:22:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Jane Madres Edited by: Jane Madres on 16/08/2011 20:46:57 Some things to think about. 1) the ship your in was probibly made from minerals bot mined in some way. Unless your mining it by yourself, you probibly got some from a bot miner. 2) this would cause a huge lack of ore. This will force you all to go mine instead of PEW PEW. 3) Pos's will be all un-powered in months. no one to fuel your r&d efforts anymore, bpc will rocket in price. 4) The Plex market will become un-stable. As goods become more expencive to craft, "extra" cash you have will be eaten up like the cost of gas IRL does for your real account. you wont have enough to buy free game time as the only method you had to reach the amounts needed is gone, so poor players who depend on rich players will be SOL.\ 5) Players will leave in numbers. As you force people to spend time doing the Care Bear thing, people get the idea that "hay im waisting my time trying to play a game im paying for." basicly people will look for a game that has a higher fun to work ratio. 6) Dont we pay the Devs to do this for us?? why are they lazy?? 7) who will you steal ice from for kicks? ect ect.
^Can I report this person for botting right now?
Not to mention all of that is an absurd amount of wrong. Botting ruins EVE more than any bad balancing decision CCP could ever make.
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Maggie Dezno
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Posted - 2011.08.17 00:03:00 -
[65]
i do not use bots at all. but I occasionally mine, and it is very repetitive work. how would I react to being target locked? I'd get the f out of wherever I am. chances are I'd be on my way out the moment you warped in. is this something bots do as well?
i.e. I don't know how you'd be able to tell a bot from a human miner doing the same repetitive work. all the stuff suggested in the dev blog sounds like it would take time to do, who the hell wants to do this when there's a game to play? |
Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2011.08.17 00:42:00 -
[66]
And the masturbots?
Must we report ourselves?
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Herping yourDerp
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Posted - 2011.08.17 01:34:00 -
[67]
its simple announce the name, credit card numbers, email, IP address, corp, alliance, region and system of botters found.
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The Offerer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.17 05:58:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Jane Madres Edited by: Jane Madres on 16/08/2011 20:46:57 Some things to think about. 1) the ship your in was probibly made from minerals bot mined in some way. Unless your mining it by yourself, you probibly got some from a bot miner. 2) this would cause a huge lack of ore. This will force you all to go mine instead of PEW PEW. 3) Pos's will be all un-powered in months. no one to fuel your r&d efforts anymore, bpc will rocket in price. 4) The Plex market will become un-stable. As goods become more expencive to craft, "extra" cash you have will be eaten up like the cost of gas IRL does for your real account. you wont have enough to buy free game time as the only method you had to reach the amounts needed is gone, so poor players who depend on rich players will be SOL.\ 5) Players will leave in numbers. As you force people to spend time doing the Care Bear thing, people get the idea that "hay im waisting my time trying to play a game im paying for." basicly people will look for a game that has a higher fun to work ratio. 6) Dont we pay the Devs to do this for us?? why are they lazy?? 7) who will you steal ice from for kicks? ect ect.
1) Possibly some percentage of it... yes.
2) This would cause a huge profitability buff for actual player miners. It will not force you, you can choose what's profitable and fun for you yourself.
3) Ice mining would be more profitable too. Actual players that mine ice will enjoy it and some other players that haven't mined ice before will join the fun. Open market is a wonderful thing.
4) Player income is the biggest factor in deciding PLEX prices. If PLEX prices hit the upper limit of player's income, you can't sell it (or sell it as fast as you expected) and the prices will drop.
5) Bots will be banned in numbers. Players will stay. No one can force you to do anything. It's your choice what you'll do in the game. Personally, I've enjoyed numerous times being in mining fleet with a couple of friends after long and stressful day at work. I don't know if you ever experienced a pressure of 3-4 different major projects on your back with a deadline set to yesterday. You know... the kind of work that you'll do for 10-12 hours a day and be too tired to go out so you stay at home. Talking with friends that play EVE (who are often your RL friends as well) while mining could just be the good way to take out the stress. It's not all "fun" and "work", sometimes you just have to enjoy "tranquility" as well.
6) We do pay them. Don't know if they are lazy, but I know that they haven't moved much in developing backend server side bot detection tools.
7) Real miners who cry real tears. Much more delicious than cold, silent ignoring from bots. |
Coco Caine
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Posted - 2011.08.17 08:23:00 -
[69]
While I appreciate your efforts, they are futile.
How about investing your time in improving and fine tuning game mechanics so that activities can't be easily macroed with a few lines of script?
Activities like mining are so offensively mind numbing, forcing people to actually do it is sort of a human rights violation.
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Nannageddon
Xeno Tech Corp Self Destruct.
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Posted - 2011.08.17 09:15:00 -
[70]
My subtle and evil idea to deal with bots
Once a character is firmly suspected of being a bot the character is silently flagged by CCP as such. Then, the fun begins. (This is an example for the 0.0 ratting bot)
Every NPC spawn that character encounters has a small, but significant chance that it will deal considerably more damage than usual, of a different damage type and that it will deploy a lot of warp disruption.
By "considerably more" I mean: enough to melt their ship quite quickly - too quickly for a program to respond. Basically, you occasionally turn an NPC spawn into Concord, but just for that character and just until their ship is dead.
CCP can just deny all knowledge of any such program and the botters can just keep losing ships to the point that they can't realistically profit. Sure, they might be fine for a few days, then BLAM, that ratting Raven gets melted by the rats in 5 seconds flat. What's the bot user going to do - petition it?
If any genuine player were caught out, they would petition and the evidence would support them. More importantly, they would probably petition straight away - the botter less so. |
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.08.17 09:20:00 -
[71]
Now it's time to take a ceptor/bomber through russian space and people will have a 2 week window to take over everything hehe... And yes I bet someone will be busy sorting out bots and players for the next few months
Pinky -
I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
Cassidy Usaro
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Posted - 2011.08.17 09:26:00 -
[72]
i think the blog should make clear, that most state of the art bots are client modifications, which result not in a warning dispension but in an instant permanent ban. Furthermore, i think the blog should point out, that CCPs action is not limited to the account but to a full fletched investigation of all accounts that interact with the flagged account or are driven from the same IP.
Nevertheless, flagging of bots by the EVE community is a good thing !
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.08.17 10:19:00 -
[73]
Useless.
I bet more innocents will ever be reported than guilty individuals.
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Pawnee
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.08.17 10:29:00 -
[74]
Quote: First offense: 14 days ban Second offense: 30 days ban Third offense: Permanent ban
This tells me, you did not learn anything.
The guys with bot farms switch characters, if it gets a 14days ban. Some of them are in alliances, which control several regions. So if they find out, somebody petitioned them, they move a botting character in another region. When I observed some botters, it was not hard to find out their main characters. But nothing ever happened on my petitions. They join every year the Eve alliance tournament with their team. They are not hte only well-known PVP-corp with a bot-farm to finance them. Or there are other groups, who use bots and reinvest in titans and Merc-contracts. Now many new players pay twice to play Eve: First CCP then some overlords, who prolly RMT some if the ISK profits, they have.
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Celine Cavin-Guang
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Posted - 2011.08.17 11:16:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Pawnee
Quote: First offense: 14 days ban Second offense: 30 days ban Third offense: Permanent ban
This tells me, you did not learn anything.
The guys with bot farms switch characters, if it gets a 14days ban. Some of them are in alliances, which control several regions. So if they find out, somebody petitioned them, they move a botting character in another region. When I observed some botters, it was not hard to find out their main characters. But nothing ever happened on my petitions. They join every year the Eve alliance tournament with their team. They are not hte only well-known PVP-corp with a bot-farm to finance them. Or there are other groups, who use bots and reinvest in titans and Merc-contracts. Now many new players pay twice to play Eve: First CCP then some overlords, who prolly RMT some if the ISK profits, they have.
I think You've misread the blog, the bans and warnings are NOT put on the characters but on the account itself. It doesn't matter if or where the reportet player moves his character(s), as soon as one of his character is reportet a second time, 14 days ban, as soon as one of his characters is reported a third time, account permaban.
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Appetite
Gallente Silent Service Operations
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Posted - 2011.08.17 11:24:00 -
[76]
I have to admit it sounds good, as long as CCP takes into account the fact that this feature will be abused. I do quite a bit of mining, no bots, react when I am paying attention(that's for you Karina, and dropping by with the Geddon the other night).
I do wish CCP would tweak mining, maybe making hidden belts the norm, having to be scanned down, which makes them random if mined out.
I just think caution is the word, and be smart about using human interaction to be the final determining factor as to where a bot might actually be a real miner who's bored and afk'ing, doing the same old thing, over and over again. Long life through superior firepower and excessive guile.
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Tarrn
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Posted - 2011.08.17 14:57:00 -
[77]
This tactic can't yield any exact proof. There are too many variables, and a strong chance of abuse. What exactly does this fix?
Now all we need is in game "Report a Troll" button... It can be green.
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2011.08.17 21:50:00 -
[78]
Just curious, is this in addition to "Report ISK Spammer" ?
I only see that at the moment. Cheers.
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Tiruriku
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Posted - 2011.08.17 21:54:00 -
[79]
When reporting a bot it shouldn't just be a single button. Allow (or better yet, require) the user to type in what behavior they observed that makes them suspect a player is botting. "Declined my invitation to chat" could mean you're a bot, or it could mean you're sick of people testing to see if you're a bot.
Also whatever verification CCP does should be very thorough and assume innocence despite what a single person reports. If you're ice mining and don't respond to a GM request within 30 seconds it does not mean you are a bot, it means you are somebody who doesn't want to stare at an ice cube for 20 minutes. Send an EVE mail or email or something involving a little effort for verification.
If this works and avoids false positives then great.
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Plato Idari
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Posted - 2011.08.18 02:45:00 -
[80]
I'd like to suggest that the ability to report a market order directly as a bot be added. There are several suspicious traders I've noticed in a few low volume high price markets. I don't want to pay them 200mil isk just to get their name and report them. |
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Celine Cavin-Guang
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Posted - 2011.08.18 08:14:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tiruriku When reporting a bot it shouldn't just be a single button. Allow (or better yet, require) the user to type in what behavior they observed that makes them suspect a player is botting. "Declined my invitation to chat" could mean you're a bot, or it could mean you're sick of people testing to see if you're a bot.
Also whatever verification CCP does should be very thorough and assume innocence despite what a single person reports. If you're ice mining and don't respond to a GM request within 30 seconds it does not mean you are a bot, it means you are somebody who doesn't want to stare at an ice cube for 20 minutes. Send an EVE mail or email or something involving a little effort for verification.
If this works and avoids false positives then great.
I second that.
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Leon Razor
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.18 08:26:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Glaso Fruixette Edited by: Glaso Fruixette on 16/08/2011 13:56:29 Actually it's quite simple to spot a bot. -It has a chinese or a "dkjsdfjdfh" name -They undock in mass -They all fly in ravens
I see this every day after 18h eve time.
I would love to see a video of this. I would also love to see a way to attach said video to the bot report.
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Marchocias
|
Posted - 2011.08.18 12:50:00 -
[83]
What a massive load of Pollux! ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Medai Kesrith
|
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:26:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Cassina Lemour
I've noticed a decline in mining bots, but there are others, the most annoying type are the complex camping bots, which won't be making lots of repetitive actions, but equally unfair.
I don't know if those complex camping bots became more but it was the first one i reported using the button. And i will gladly report any suspicious behaviour i see as described in the dev blog, no hestitation at all. It's not my duty to proof if it's a bot or not that's CCP job. Eve will be a better place with less bots.
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Pawnee
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:32:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Celine Cavin-Guang
Originally by: Pawnee
Quote: First offense: 14 days ban Second offense: 30 days ban Third offense: Permanent ban
This tells me, you did not learn anything.
The guys with bot farms switch characters, if it gets a 14days ban. Some of them are in alliances, which control several regions. So if they find out, somebody petitioned them, they move a botting character in another region. When I observed some botters, it was not hard to find out their main characters. But nothing ever happened on my petitions. They join every year the Eve alliance tournament with their team. They are not hte only well-known PVP-corp with a bot-farm to finance them. Or there are other groups, who use bots and reinvest in titans and Merc-contracts. Now many new players pay twice to play Eve: First CCP then some overlords, who prolly RMT some if the ISK profits, they have.
I think You've misread the blog, the bans and warnings are NOT put on the characters but on the account itself. It doesn't matter if or where the reportet player moves his character(s), as soon as one of his character is reportet a second time, 14 days ban, as soon as one of his characters is reported a third time, account permaban.
Are you trying to white-knight for botters?
If you report a botter most likely - like PVP-loss petitions - CCP's log files never ever show anything. No proof - no 14days ban. They even give botters a warning and even another one. If a botter gets a warning, he knows, he has to go more low profile for a while and find out, what lead to the petition. Most will not stopp, becuase the rule give them plainty of time to adapt and make more than enough profit before a possible perma-ban happens. This rule shows well enough, how much CCP honor honest players. CCP does not give a ****. Some players are more equal than others.
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Celine Cavin-Guang
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Posted - 2011.08.19 08:39:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Pawnee
Are you trying to white-knight for botters?
If you report a botter most likely - like PVP-loss petitions - CCP's log files never ever show anything. No proof - no 14days ban. They even give botters a warning and even another one. If a botter gets a warning, he knows, he has to go more low profile for a while and find out, what lead to the petition. Most will not stopp, becuase the rule give them plainty of time to adapt and make more than enough profit before a possible perma-ban happens. This rule shows well enough, how much CCP honor honest players. CCP does not give a ****. Some players are more equal than others.
And now I am truly and utterly confused. I just told You, that the bans and warnings are issued to a certain account, not the character that belongs to this account. This means, it is irrelevant if the bot using player moves his or her charakter to another region or not. Please explain to me how this is "white-knighting".
Please note also, CCP Pollux didn't say wether the (what do we call it? Bot use marks/flags?) marks, are tied to an account permanently or not.
Speaking of which, now I've got a question for CCP Pollux: If a player receives a (presumably justified) 14 days ban, is that account marked permanently or not?
Please say permanently, thank You CCP Pollux.
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Pawnee
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:28:00 -
[87]
You argue with me about the difference character/account. I do not see any point. Most botting characters run appr. 23h, so their owners calculation is anyways: account = botting char = paid in a couple of hours/days = rest is extra profit. Like I said, the main problem seem to be more, CCP does not find anything, even if an obvious botter gets petitioned. I am talking about some ratters, who let me put up bubbles in every belt, then still start rattng, get stuck in the bubbles and slowboot into them until I come back in the system, find and kill them. CCP never ever found anything on my petitions vs them. That is the real problem. Also, some of these bots get petitioned certainly several times from more than one person. After some long time, the botter maybe even gets his first 14days ban. The account owner reacts of course. And so on. It is like with some RL mobsters, in the end never any conviction, which hit them hard.
This 3 step rule says everything. There is no anti-mob law and no real will to hunt cheaters. CCP prefers to believe in the good of somebody, caught botting in the dark and harsh Eve Univ... Well, it is a paid account, and maybe he really, really will change his mind? They give to way too many accounts 14days bans, though the real owner overall has a history over years in botting. Like I said, it is not very hard to find out, some accounts are related, if they are in the same Corp or Main-Alliance/Pet-Alliance and come often online at the exact same time. But hey, 3 step policy. First find countless times nothing, then maybe 14days ban for 1 account, which the botter has written off a long time ago anyways.
I gave up petitioning possible bots like many other players a long time ago. I never saw any positive result in a long time. Since the last scandal, this blog is the first sign, we see again. There is nothing new in it, which would make me believe in future CCP will have a higher success rate in catching and especially getting tehese cheaters out of the game. I mean the real guys behind it, not only 1 account from them.
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Sarmatiko
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:22:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Sarmatiko on 19/08/2011 13:23:20 Quote from one of the bot sites from russian developer of EvePilot commercial bot:
Quote: Dont know how about bot war, but sales go well. The number of bots increases and regulated rather by desire to play/bot then by actions taken by CCP. You can look into in-game prices stats. When there was nothing to mine in empire, asteroids were small and did not appear in every belt, prices for trit were very high (about 5). Now, after several ban waves CCP made, I dont see any considerable changes in the market. I would rather make economical/gameplay changes to make the game less comfortable for bots rather to hire additional people for doing, in principle, nothing useful. Like attempt to drive away all flies out of the room in summer, when the door is still open.
What steps CCP will make to take down his site (located in US California btw) and to shut down this mining and trade bot?
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mirosan
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Posted - 2011.08.19 17:07:00 -
[89]
Thank you for coming with this GREAT idea about bot reporting. Took you only 9 years. Congrtulations CCP
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Khadann
Caldari Sense of Serendipity Echoes of Nowhere
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Posted - 2011.08.19 22:58:00 -
[90]
Cool Feature!
Can we report bots directly from the forum?!
The botter hunt season can finally start... thanks CCP :) Hya! |
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Dalilus
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Posted - 2011.08.20 20:47:00 -
[91]
I have been reading for years in these forums about bots and players, corps and alliances that base their livelyhood on bots. Besides banning accounts that regularly use bots will you also be banning corps and alliances that encourage the use of bots?
A while back one of my alts was mistakenly identified as a bot and it took a petition or two plus a few weeks or so for more than one GM to give that alt a clean bill of health. Game time lost plus a bit more was given to me for the missunderstanding. I suggest CCP be severe in punishing players that for lulz, tactical advantage, bullying or having nothing else to do but scam report others as being bots.
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CCP Pollux
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Posted - 2011.08.21 16:11:00 -
[92]
| The time of change - from a reactive past into a reactive and proactive future
Without getting into the details just yet, we have decided that itÆs time for us to be less reactive and more proactive about security, asking us ôWhat if?ö before asking us ôNow, what?ö. The main difference between reactive thinking and proactive thinking on security is if you ask yourself a certain question after an incident occurs, or before it occurs. Out-of-the-box thinking was the mindset that the EVE Security Task Force (now EVESec) has been founded with, and this is exactly what has been expected from us from the very first day. The emerging changes this fundamentally different approach has yielded are slowly starting to show the expected result but there is still a long way to go.
How does this relate to cheating? In terms of cheating, this allowed us to address the issue with a fundamentally different mindset. How? Instead of focusing on how cheating unfolds, we have focused on what system inadequacies make certain types of cheating possible and how these inadequacies are used in order to cheat. With the knowledge we have gathered by reevaluating our systems, using this exact mindset, we have set out a prototype system and will develop the required systems to combat cheating at all levels, reactively and proactively. These systems are currently under development and will be known as the guards who continuously watch EVE.
*Note* The upcoming blog will discuss all the above and as well cheating (Fundamental traits of cheating and the malicious intent), hostile environments (Malicious action on the EVE Client and interactions with the world of EVE), vulnerabilities (The repetitive nature of gameplay mechanics) exploits (Third-party add-ons, automations, macro and bots) and reactive and proactive countermeasures (Adaptive Software Protection and Dynamic Anti-Cheating Systems), in great detail.
As many of you will now be aware, the Report-Bot feature is a very small component of a much bigger and complex system to come.
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CCP Pollux
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Posted - 2011.08.21 17:00:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Bruno Bummel Are automatic detection routines in place to check on people online 23.5/7 that are doing the same thing all day long? A little confirmation that this is beeing worked on is more than enough.
Yes, there are.
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CCP Pollux
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Posted - 2011.08.21 17:15:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Will future devblogs expand on your succesful persecution of certain types of bots?
Yes. We intent to release blogs about our ongoing progress. Further more, from now on we intend to open and maintain an active dialog with our community regarding this kind of issues.
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CCP Pollux
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Posted - 2011.08.21 17:54:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Ciar Meara Are their additional accounts also targetted or just the one caught botting
Yes, in the investigation process we take into account all relevant aspects and factors, including the relationships between the account/s being investigated and other accounts.
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CCP Pollux
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Posted - 2011.08.21 19:57:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Chribba Edited by: Chribba on 16/08/2011 12:57:56 Hopefully it will be for the better. Keep up the good work!
also edit/I would like Pollux view input on automated login... software(?). There are password manager software out there that have limited types of macro features, so that they will auto-fill in your user details for websites, programs, etc
What is the stance on using said technique to make the login proceedure easier, as configured properly all needed to do from the password manager is to press "go" kinda - for example KeePass has such features.
/c
Chribba, there is a post of GM Lelouch here regarding the current allowed automation. As the purpose of this automation is not to automate gameplay nor to obtain an unfair advantage within the game, it should be allowed. Still what kind of interactions with the EVE Client will be allowed in future is subject to change.
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CCP Pollux
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Posted - 2011.08.21 21:07:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Celine Cavin-Guang If a player receives a (presumably justified) 14 or 30 days ban, is that account marked permanently or not?
Permanently.
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CCP Pollux
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Posted - 2011.08.21 21:12:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Dalilus I have been reading for years in these forums about bots and players, corps and alliances that base their livelyhood on bots. Besides banning accounts that regularly use bots will you also be banning corps and alliances that encourage the use of bots?
We ban all those who break the rules, no matter if it's a player, a corporation or an alliance.
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Somatic Neuron
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Posted - 2011.08.22 04:46:00 -
[99]
What about using macro programs for the physically disabled, that cannot play the game without the use of said aids? Surely some means must be made available for them to not be discriminated against? ---------- |
Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.08.22 18:53:00 -
[100]
Ive often wondered if this part of EULA:
"3.You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. "
was written the way it was to allow for assistive software for the handicapped.
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Splatacus
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Posted - 2011.08.23 17:49:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Splatacus on 23/08/2011 17:49:50 I think you are all barking up the wrong tree. Making detection of bots faster by adding single features that a human needs to respond to will result in the same way that the bots currently operate - more response routines such as talking in local, warping to different safe spots, randomize undock-intervals and so on. CAPTCHA's excluded, if it can be done within the game, it can presumably be botted.
Some angles
1. Make the environment for bots unprofitable. WoW did this by virtually eliminating the value of "gold". This (thankfully) will not work in EVE which is reliant on gathering activities. 2. Monitor outside programs that run the bots. Not an expert myself of course but I understand that the bots function by simulating mouse clicks / keystrokes across a static UI. Randomizing the UI ever so slightly would break that system requiring re-calibration of the bot by a human and is guaranteed to p**** off every legit player in the game as well. So thats probably not an option. And the more sophisticated way of doing this would be to scour the players harddrive for botting software. I recall WoW doing this with mixed results but I am sure EVE players will choke on the concept that CCP is snooping in their drives, even for a "good" cause. 3. Holistic analysis of players and their activity. For example follow the log-in pattern, track where the mouse is going, track the exact intervals between actions and response times to a challenge. Whilst lag will throw some error into it, bots will -at least initially, see above - be detectable. The more parameters CCP can measure and not publish, the more data they would have to play with.
Since 1. is out, 2. presumably also, the last remaining thing is 3, a more comprehensive analysis of player's actions inside the game. I am pretty sure CCP Pollux does just that right now but the line to intrusion is pretty thin. And EVE does have an unforgiving player base.
Many replies say that bots live deep in null-sec and hence would not be reported but reporting may serve as a first flag from which CCP can start analyzing the other parameters.
One thing CCP may want to publish is the ship type / system, ore mined / system / hour. That is not really secret. Build an API that then allows identification of systems that are occupied with hulks and nothing else in low/null sec and let players search for these system and I am sure the problem is solved pretty quickly....
And for clearly identified bots, rather than banning them, make their life miserable. Outlaw them, slow down their docking, disable their cloak, disrupt their lasers send them a few waves of BS rats with warp scramblers. And yes, add a bounty ;-) Banning them? Pff, they just roll another one.
Btw, just for sake of scale of the problem, what do CCP (and players) think the proportion of bots actually is on the economy? 1%, 10%, 80% ? I have no data, anyone?
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Soldarius
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.08.24 04:28:00 -
[102]
CCP Pollux, I'm pleased with what I'm reading here, and in your blog. Keep up the good work. "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage missiles." - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 amended
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Celine Cavin-Guang
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Posted - 2011.08.25 10:28:00 -
[103]
Originally by: CCP Pollux
Originally by: Dalilus I have been reading for years in these forums about bots and players, corps and alliances that base their livelyhood on bots. Besides banning accounts that regularly use bots will you also be banning corps and alliances that encourage the use of bots?
We ban all those who break the rules, no matter if it's a player, a corporation or an alliance.
You rule!
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Marian Lula
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Posted - 2011.08.25 23:47:00 -
[104]
Interesting article however did I miss something about this BOT reporting.
Theoretically I can report anyoneàI donÆt like that player and BAM reported.
Could CCP explain how they would monitor and control this? If a player is reported as a BOT and a 14 ban is added however the player was not using a BOT. What can the player do? If one writes to a GM, nothing happens with proven record.
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Marka Jita
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Posted - 2011.08.27 07:11:00 -
[105]
Soooooo, absolutely every ice-miner in hi-sec is a bot because of their monotonous behaviour. (Miners are huge of time locked on one ice and orbiting and haulers are always travel in a direction of one station, ....)
Ok, i can start reporting everyone from today who is watching TV and mining simultaneously ....
JESUS OMG...
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sYnc Vir
Caldari Wolfsbrigade
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Posted - 2011.08.30 15:04:00 -
[106]
Edited by: sYnc Vir on 30/08/2011 15:04:03 So being a miner I've seen the odd high sec botter, or at lease those I thought were bots. So I reported them, heard nothing about it but Haven't seen either of the two people since.
So either job done, or they moved system.
However I personal think it would be alot easier if CCP would just removed Hulks from fitting Active reppers. To solo mine in high sec in a hulk you dont need a shield booster. Null Sec Im told you cant tank rats at all without the capital reps from a rorqual, which means buffer high resist anyway.
So while it wouldn't stop bots mining it would make it harder, and lower the number of AFK guys as well. Not to mention increase every hulks ehp so 3 thashers dont alpha them. 200m Isk ship 6000 ehp Add damage control and shield buffer 24000 ehp .
Might not be the best idea in the world and if it gets anywhere could you see fit to give the hulk like 20 more powergrid. I dream of Mid Extender. ... I fly carelessly, without focus and semi afk all the time. ... |
Pacing Triers
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Posted - 2011.08.30 19:28:00 -
[107]
Originally by: CCP Pollux
Originally by: Dalilus I have been reading for years in these forums about bots and players, corps and alliances that base their livelyhood on bots. Besides banning accounts that regularly use bots will you also be banning corps and alliances that encourage the use of bots?
We ban all those who break the rules, no matter if it's a player, a corporation or an alliance.
Are you going to provide a figure on the number of corporations/alliances banned for systematic botting? If the figure is zero could you then describe the criteria on which a ban will be applied?
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Sassums
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.09.01 06:59:00 -
[108]
I knew this feature would be a bad idea.
Sure enough my alternate character gets a "Ban"
Naturally CCP doesn't communicate for what reasons the suspension was given. Now I have to sit and wait for a response from them, not only do they normally take forever, I have to wait for a Senior GM which the little petition window says will take even longer.
So why this whole rig amoral because CCP screwed up?
I was playing the character yesterday just fine, mining in a WH, to come back today to find it banned. What is up with that?
CCP this is unacceptable.
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Reiner SCT
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Posted - 2011.09.01 12:26:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Cassina Lemour
I've noticed a decline in mining bots, but there are others, the most annoying type are the complex camping bots, which won't be making lots of repetitive actions, but equally unfair.
That's true - many 2/10 Creo-Corp complexes in high sec are occupied by bots or semi-bots, especially in Metropolis Region.
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Sassums
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.09.01 17:31:00 -
[110]
What about the players that play semi-afk.
Such as those of us who set up a mining operation, and then watch a movie - only paying enough attention to move the mined materials to an Orca or jetcan them for another ship to pick up
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Arndt Eistert
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Posted - 2011.09.09 13:40:00 -
[111]
So...the witch hunt has begun. I have the feeling that we're back in The Middle Ages again...
Quote: We strongly recommend against using the Report Bot Feature with any other intent than the one it has been designed for. Abuse of this feature will have consequences.
^^^ I hope it does ! Otherwise... God help us !
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