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Frau Klaps
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.18 17:48:00 -
[1]
In a really good episode of Star Trek Voyager, the holo doctor (who never gets an actual name) is confronted by a rather difficult choice. To save the life of a crew member he has to use the research made by a man who acquired his results through unethical ways, by experimenting on unwilling patients. The doctor reasons that if he decides to use those research results, that would be like justifying the means in which they were acquired, and decides that he has to find another way.
The question here is; would it be ok to use something which has been acquired in unethical ways, even if it's for something "good" (definable of course)?
First of all I'd like to say that I don't agree with the Doctor in this episode. I don't think that using unethically acquired research in anyway has to justify the means in which they were acquired. I usually apply a simple "what would I want" to any moral questions, and I would of course not want to be part of any freak experiment against my will. But if the harm was already done, I think I would prefer the results to be used to save lives rather than be discarded. This doesn't mean that getting the research in this way was ok in any way. Besides, how much of our knowledge today doesn't origin in research which has been acquired in what we'd today consider rather unethical? We improve, not by discarding our mistakes, but by learning from them and finding new ways to get understanding about things.
So anyway, now that I've made that clear I'd like to make a further point. This kind of dilemma can be found in a game like EVE too. People behave unethically all the time (unethical as in alot of people don't agree that it is a good behavior) which I have mentioned in some posts before. I can think of two good examples and I'd like to ask you what you'd do to handle them, if at all.
The AFK Cloaker
It has become something of a standing joke in our intel channel (and surely of other coalitions too) to report AFK cloakers. Although many of them probably aren't AFK'd at all, I am sure a lot of them are. And if someone admits to being AFK ganked, aka killed while ratting in my system, would you have any second thoughts as to petitioning it at all?
I will go against what I just say here and say that it is wrong. In doing this, you might not justify the behavior, but you'd definitely encourage it. People see that they can actually kill their enemis, which is the very reason they AFK'd in the first place. Kinda like stolen art. If you buy stolen items, you encourage the whole idea of stealing items to profit from them. But you want the ISK of course and the ninjaing has already been done, so would it be so wrong? The difference to the example with unethical research in the "real world" is that us players have very little power against taking action towards players who go AFK, whereas I hope that governments around the world have more power to prevent unethical espionage from taking place (but maybe I am nanve). EVE is based on such a big part on mutual trust and the will for everyone to be kind to everyone else, that there isn't much we can do but govern our own actions. Only the GM's have the final say.
Again, our only way to affect other people in a game like EVE is by making clear that we don't accept that kind of behavior. We can't throw them into jail (ban their accounts) or take what they stole away from them, so the only way we can hope to change that behavior by setting our foot down and say "we don't want anything to do with people like you" (and petition a GM and hope for something to happen). That is, if we can be arsed.
The problem with any system that allows players to report unethical behavior is that it can, and will, be abused. A game like EVE is somewhat similiar to real life in this way too. We have to go to the "police" (GM's) when we have an issue and then wait for their bureaucracy to take its time before something might happen.
continues...
~~~
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Frau Klaps
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.18 17:48:00 -
[2]
...continued
Like I mentioned in my post about AFK cloakers, CCP doesn't think it's big enough of a problem to put man power enough into it to make sure people stop doing it. And unethical behavior overall really isn't much of a problem, yet. But when people get away with it so easily, they won't be able to stop themselves from doing it (or so it seems anyway). And maybe that means we need a little social courage to step in.
~~~
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Jackson Millenius
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Posted - 2011.08.18 17:53:00 -
[3]
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.' |
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.18 17:55:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Tippia on 18/08/2011 18:03:27
Subverting intel is not unethical.
Subverting an game mechanic that has been been corrupted into becoming an intel tool rather than a tool of communication is a good thing, because that means this unintentional, and accidentally overpowered tool has a counter and some kind of balancing factor working against it.
Not only is AFK cloaking not unethical ù it's the duty of the righteous! 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki
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Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.18 17:58:00 -
[5]
Longest pure troll post of the week.
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Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:01:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Feligast
Longest pure troll post of the week.
This.
Hiya bud, hope you are well. 
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Frau Klaps
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:07:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Feligast
Longest pure troll post of the week.
This.
Hiya bud, hope you are well.
The whole world's trolling when you dislike what someone has to say 
~~~
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:08:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 18/08/2011 18:08:50
Ah Voyager, where allowing genocide on a planetary scale is an acceptable solution to "we didn't want to get our hands dirty". Truly the best place to seek moral advice.
---
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Shepard Book
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:16:00 -
[9]
Cloaking is not the problem. Local being used as a free warning someone is in your system is. Local is being removed along with this concern IMO.
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Jackson Millenius
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:19:00 -
[10]
Wait a minute.....
There is no such thing as an episode of star trek voyager!
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.' |
Frau Klaps
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:19:00 -
[11]
Use of local is a level playing field and hardly unethical. Cloaking gives advantage to the hunter who can swoop in at any time and generates a negative environment of oppression for anyone trying to be productive in that space.
~~~
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Tartarek
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:22:00 -
[12]
Question: If someone is AFK cloaked, and there is no local to warn you of them, are they still there?
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DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:22:00 -
[13]
OMG you are an nut job. Yummy tears you peice of work. call the GM police really you can be serious. iam going to file a petition against you be exploiting and pretending you have brain. Please go away
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Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Frau Klaps
Use of local is a level playing field and hardly unethical. Cloaking gives advantage to the hunter who can swoop in at any time and generates a negative environment of oppression for anyone trying to be productive in that space.
Perhaps the AFK cloaker feels that using that space is indeed unethical. If not for AFK cloakers whom would stand up for the rights of our little NPC friends? Whom would stop unethical ore theft by miners whom strip away the natural resources of asteroids belts in deep space?
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:40:00 -
[15]
You are in a group of people that kill people for a living, and you think AFK cloaking is "unethical".
Kudos, you have taken bias to a whole new level.
.
Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:41:00 -
[16]
Bloody hell another spank alt whose forum ban has expired
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Frau Klaps
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:42:00 -
[17]
We do not 'kill people for a living' and this is a PVP game so I don't understand what your issue is.
~~~
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Carver DiGriz
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:48:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Frau Klaps
... and this is a PVP game so I don't understand what your issue is.
backatcha, buddy
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Darrius Actionman
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:50:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Although many of them probably aren't AFK'd at all, I am sure a lot of them are.
Pick one and stick with it. Many of them aren't AFK, but a lot of them are? So you're saying it's about 50/50?
Your mathematics are invalid. Go directly to the calculator. Do not pass "Go," do not collect 200 repetitive post points.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Frau Klaps
We do not 'kill people for a living' and this is a PVP game so I don't understand what your issue is.
Not understanding is actually a prerequisite of ignorance, working as intended. I don't have any issues about AFK cloaking, it is also working as intended.
.
Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Frau Klaps
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Frau Klaps
We do not 'kill people for a living' and this is a PVP game so I don't understand what your issue is.
Not understanding is actually a prerequisite of ignorance, working as intended. I don't have any issues about AFK cloaking, it is also working as intended.
Looking at your forum history I can assure you shiptoasting still works as intended. The intention being to make you looks stupid. Get out of my thread.
~~~
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Mistah Ewedynao
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Feligast
Longest pure troll post of the week.
Longest Goon intellectual discourse of the month
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Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:00:00 -
[23]
Actually, the Doctor names himself 'Joe' in the final episode.
Lieutenant Paris expresses considerable disbelief at this revelation.
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"I have not problem with prostitute, but the kiddy dools is to much for me" - Orcan |
Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:03:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mistah Ewedynao
Originally by: Feligast
Longest pure troll post of the week.
Longest Goon intellectual discourse of the month
umad?
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Frau Klaps
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Frau Klaps
We do not 'kill people for a living' and this is a PVP game so I don't understand what your issue is.
Not understanding is actually a prerequisite of ignorance, working as intended. I don't have any issues about AFK cloaking, it is also working as intended.
Looking at your forum history I can assure you shiptoasting still works as intended. The intention being to make you looks stupid. Get out of my thread.
Nice non sequitur.
Please lets get this thread back on topic, which is the opinion that AFK cloaking is unethical.
Quote:
Adj.1.unethical- not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior; "unethical business practices"
Explain how you feel AFK cloaking conforms to this description.
.
Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Frau Klaps
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:16:00 -
[26]
I am not a primary school teacher. Go read up on the key issues of the subject if this discussion is too advanced for you.
~~~
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:23:00 -
[27]
Wait a second... did Lady Spank get a character rename or is this just a copycat ?
Can't say the name is much of an improvement though
_
Akita T USEFUL EVE LINKS collection |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Frau Klaps
I am not a primary school teacher. Go read up on the key issues of the subject if this discussion is too advanced for you.
Secondary school teacher?
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Bklyn 1
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:24:00 -
[29]
Pardon me, but he's not a holo doctor, he's an EMH - Emergency Medical Hologram
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Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.08.18 19:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bklyn 1
Pardon me, but he's not a holo doctor, he's an EMH - Emergency Medical Hologram
His name is Joe
and
Quote:
Wait a second... did Lady Spank get a character rename or is this just a copycat ?
Can't say the name is much of an improvement though
People have these things called alts, you know. Some of us more than others, I daresay
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"I have not problem with prostitute, but the kiddy dools is to much for me" - Orcan |
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