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This Is How You Remove Local - [No Srsly This Time]

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Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:17:00 - [1] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 17:18:14 Observe "EVE's" New "Dscan Radar System" What is really cool about this new feature is that the "Dscan" cycles by itself and thus there is no longer a need for spam clicking! Just like the traditional D-scan you can "narrow" the scan field (The image above just happens to be set to 5 degrees for max resolution) Some Cool New Features: 1. The more you narrow the field, the more information that you get about the ships that are surround you! The draw back to narrowing the field however is that it also cycles slower around the 300 degree sphere. 2. 5 degrees will give you ship type and name. But from a tactical standpoint 15 degrees is often good enough being that it will give you "ship class" and allow you to quickly identify whether or not said blip is a "elite cruiser" or a battleship. 3. By clicking on a blip on your new Dscan you can choose to run a "ship scan". This scan only takes a couple of seconds and will give you information like whether or not said blip is a "friendly" a "hostile" or an "Unknown" 4. The new maximum setting for the Dscan is only 180 degrees. The Cycle time for this setting is fairly quick, like "bleep-beep, bleep-beep, bleep-beep" and only identifies ships in space with no information. This is useful in terms of seeing whether or not another ship is currently warping to your location. The Secondary Long Range Dscan Although this feature as a long cycle time, it covers about half the size of a normal starsystem. This tool allows pilots to identify hostiles in their space collectively by turning on their own ships "transceivers" all friendly ships will appear as blue blips consistently. In this manner only 2-3 pilots can cover an entire starsystem by using both their long range scanner and their short range scanner set to 180 degrees.
Magnus Orin Minmatar Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:25:00 - [2] I'd love something like this to replace local. I just don't know if CCPs servers could handle it. Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you.
Jaari Val'Dara Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:31:00 - [3] Originally by: Magnus Orin I'd love something like this to replace local. I just don't know if CCPs servers could handle it. Yes, that would be awesome, if the servers can handle, then I say - go for it CCP.
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:32:00 - [4] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 17:31:54 IMO its the same information that the Dscan and the map statistics deal with now... All you need to do is display it in a different way graphically and that could be done client side.
Lu'Marat	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:32:00 - [5] Nice!
Magnus Orin Minmatar Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:36:00 - [6] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 17:31:54 IMO its the same information that the Dscan and the map statistics deal with now... All you need to do is display it in a different way graphically and that could be done client side. Ya, but awhile back, CCP changed the way the D scanner works slightly because it was causing massive loads on the server (now there is the 2 second delay). That was with only selective people using the D scanner. With this new system, you would have a huge increase in the number of people using the D scanner (basically everyone not docked), and even if the frequency was low, it would still a ton more work for the server over all. I'm no techno wiz, so maybe (hopefully) there is a solution. Or likewise, maybe that is not even a problem at all, I don't know. I do think moving to a local system like this would be an excellent improvement to Eve. Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you.
DeBingJos Minmatar Goat Holdings	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:37:00 - [7] +1 Very good suggestion
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:41:00 - [8] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 17:43:21 I suspect it would come down to a minimalistic representation of a starsystem. Written in Text Form (I am no programmer mind you) Eternum Praetorian - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Insert name - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Insert name - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Insert name - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Insert name - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Insert name - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Insert name - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Insert name - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Insert name - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Insert name - (ship type) - (x,y,Z Axis) - (Vector + Velocity) Then plot the information on a grid as only a blip with a character name and ship name. Minimalistic information written in text form like this is simple math and is very easy to deal with (no graphics or physics to calculate) and thus in theory no server load.
Newt Rondanse	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:45:00 - [9] Horrible design. On the scales an EVE solar system runs on it would alternate between too much information and too little. Additionally, it doesn't replace the necessary communication role supplied by local. Ganking people is not nearly as much fun if you don't even have the possibility of harvesting their tears where others can witness it.

CCP Zymurgist Gallente C C P	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:48:00 - [10] Moved from General Discussion. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP NA, EVE Online Contact Us


Soi Mala Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:48:00 - [11] It appears to be missing a dimension...
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Newt Rondanse Horrible design. On the scales an EVE solar system runs on it would alternate between too much information and too little. Additionally, it doesn't replace the necessary communication role supplied by local. Ganking people is not nearly as much fun if you don't even have the possibility of harvesting their tears where others can witness it. Meh... the Jita undock would just appear to be one big blip with minimal info associated with it. So I counter your troll post by adding a "blotch" representing a cluser of ships with little to no info associated with it.
Zagam	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:51:00 - [13] Aside from pirates, I don't understand why Local is such a bad, evil thing. ---------.oOo.---------- Chaos, Madness, and Destruction. My work here is done.
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:52:00 - [14] Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Moved from General Discussion. Well at least I know you read it Zymurgist...

CCP Cascade	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:55:00 - [15] Nice constructive suggestion! Keep it coming. I like the idea of different "modes" and that they give more information if you are investing more time. I also like the idea that you have to click on a ship to find out if it is hostile or not, that way you are able to mask your radar signature by staying close to a blob (blending into an already large scan signature). Will it deal with cloaked ships at all? Also, what about giving different ships different kinds of scan time? How will it deal with moving ships?

Jaari Val'Dara Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:59:00 - [16] Originally by: CCP Cascade Nice constructive suggestion! Keep it coming. I like the idea of different "modes" and that they give more information if you are investing more time. I also like the idea that you have to click on a ship to find out if it is hostile or not, that way you are able to mask your radar signature by staying close to a blob (blending into an already large scan signature). Will it deal with cloaked ships at all? Also, what about giving different ships different kinds of scan time? How will it deal with moving ships? Now that someone from CCP is here, lets not let him go until he tells us if the server would cry hard if something like this were implemented.
Rees Noturana Red Rock Mining Company	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:03:00 - [17] I would like to see a fairly short range proximity scanner that automatically sweeps every few seconds when its open and active. General blobish information about something nasty inbound which I may already be too late to escape from. Nice for when running a complex or mining site in low sec or beyond. If you are in a fleet and on grid just share the information to avoid overloading a node. Maybe a fleet gets a bonus to the proximity scanner. Keep the current d-scan mechanic as a more active, focusable, tool that will trigger someones proximity scanner if they have it open. They should sense a ping so they know someone is looking. Proximity is passive, D-scan is active and creates a big signature.
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:05:00 - [18] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 18:10:02 Originally by: CCP Cascade Nice constructive suggestion! Keep it coming. I like the idea of different "modes" and that they give more information if you are investing more time. I also like the idea that you have to click on a ship to find out if it is hostile or not, that way you are able to mask your radar signature by staying close to a blob. Will it deal with cloaked ships at all? Also, what about giving different ships different kinds of scan time? How will it deal with moving ships? Well... Since you asked I'd guess smaller ships = longer scan time (so interceptors will have a role in catching targets) Moving ships: Since ships only warp in one direction at a time, I figure it would simply show a blip on the screen moving in whatever vector and at whatever velocity it was moving at when the Dscan-radar hit it. And then update the info the next time the blip was swept by the scan. (This way people who want more info about their targets will have slower scan times, where as people who want more "here and now" info will have a quicker refresh rate and less blip information) Cloak: IMO, cloaking ships should be identifiable in space via some other mechanic. Like a probe or an additional ship scanner that will cycle for a minute or two, and then identify a ship as an "Anomaly" in space that you cannot warp to. Since you can't get to a cloaked ship in space with current mechanics, there is no reason to be able to probe them down. But you would be able to see if one is present in your system and have a general idea of where he is and when he is online.
Messoroz AQUILA INC	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:05:00 - [19] Edited by: Messoroz on 19/08/2011 18:09:14 Edited by: Messoroz on 19/08/2011 18:07:59 Just because I have to defend wspace everyday now because all these nullsec improvements are quite short sighted. I just hope something like this doesn't replace DSCAN. It must be able to dscan not only on the plane, but in the full 3 dimensions and provide you information about that. Why? It's used for hunting excessively in wspace and bears in anoms in null. Sites spawn everywhere, seeing where people are in space relative to a planet in all 3 dimensions is how people get insta combat probed(it takes a little time and practice to do). Quote: Cloak: IMO, cloaking ships should be identifiable in space via some other mechanic. Like a probe or an additional ship scanner that will cycle for a minute or two, and then identify a ship as an "Anomaly" in space. Since you can't get to a cloaked ship in space with current mechanics, there is no reason to be able to probe them down. But you would be able to see if one is present in your system and have a general idea of where he is and when he is online. This would make wspace PVE almost completely risk free, you will now see when hostile cov ops are now in system and the bears will just run away and hide. The only beautiful thing about wspace, is you accept that there may be even cloaky dreads watching you, there could be an entire fleet just cloaked on the other side. People accept this fact and run with it. this would just utterly destroy so much about it.
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:07:00 - [20] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 18:07:12 Originally by: Messoroz I jst hope something like this doesn't replace DSCAN. It must be able to dscan not only on the plane, but in the full 3 dimensions and provide you information about that. Why? It's used for hunting excessively in wspace and bears in anoms in null. All you have to do is include a "Line and Disk" configuration or something, like we have in the tactical overlay and then bam! 3D! Come on people don't make me think of everything! LOL

Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:09:00 - [21] Here's a thought... it gives too much information. Yeah, sorry... but keep in mind, I live in a wormhole. You add this to wormholes and you're degrading a lot of the frontier feel... it's too easy to get too much info with this. I'm not saying it isn't a bad or creative idea, not in the least. But it would take that special "no local" feel away from wormholes and push them to being too similar to lesser systems outside the holes. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:11:00 - [22] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 18:11:02 Originally by: Ingvar Angst Here's a thought... it gives too much information. Yeah, sorry... but keep in mind, I live in a wormhole. You add this to wormholes and you're degrading a lot of the frontier feel... it's too easy to get too much info with this. I'm not saying it isn't a bad or creative idea, not in the least. But it would take that special "no local" feel away from wormholes and push them to being too similar to lesser systems outside the holes. "Black hole is interfering with your scanner" ? I'm on fire!!!!! LOL

CCP Cascade	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:11:00 - [23] Haha! I am not a designer or a programmer, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But when it comes to server constrains it boils down to coming up with a compromise what is possible for the server to handle but still achieves the game design goals and then wrapping that in some smart programming which scales well. Sounds easy in writing but it is a lot of work. But when it comes to design discussions such as this one, it is often counter productive to think that "this is impossible, it will never happen". Just come up with cool ideas, interesting designs and some of it might be really useful and applicable in a different solution. I generally liked the design idea that "invest more time, get more information", this is something which the current probing system has. That in itself might be something to build ontop for the future solution. Maybe have the time it takes to scan tied to your current scan resolution, that way you favour the attacker in smaller ships vs the hauler/battleship in the belt. Anyway, keep on spawning ideas! Also a lot of devs read the forum, just that they don't reply to everything.

Messoroz AQUILA INC	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:11:00 - [24] Edited by: Messoroz on 19/08/2011 18:12:49 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Originally by: Ingvar Angst Here's a thought... it gives too much information. Yeah, sorry... but keep in mind, I live in a wormhole. You add this to wormholes and you're degrading a lot of the frontier feel... it's too easy to get too much info with this. I'm not saying it isn't a bad or creative idea, not in the least. But it would take that special "no local" feel away from wormholes and push them to being too similar to lesser systems outside the holes. "Black hole is interfering with your scanner" ? I'm on fire!!!!! Black holes only exist in like 200 or so out of 2700 wspace systems. I win :P
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:12:00 - [25] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 18:11:02 Originally by: Ingvar Angst Here's a thought... it gives too much information. Yeah, sorry... but keep in mind, I live in a wormhole. You add this to wormholes and you're degrading a lot of the frontier feel... it's too easy to get too much info with this. I'm not saying it isn't a bad or creative idea, not in the least. But it would take that special "no local" feel away from wormholes and push them to being too similar to lesser systems outside the holes. "Black hole is interfering with your scanner" ? I'm on fire!!!!! LOL We have no effects in our hole. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:14:00 - [26] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 18:18:59 @ CCP Cascade - I do understand that, but what about what I suggested in post 8? A minimalistic, text-like and math only "mirror" of the current game physics/graphics engine. I am sure that even jita could be plotted as dots in a sphere with very little computing power. No physics, no graphics just pure x,y,z, a ship name and a pilot name. And as for black holes... Maybe we add a Quasar? A dark matter nebula? Dark energy? A bowl of spaghetti!! Who cares LOL such an easy fix for unknown space.
Rees Noturana Red Rock Mining Company	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Here's a thought... it gives too much information. Yeah, sorry... but keep in mind, I live in a wormhole. You add this to wormholes and you're degrading a lot of the frontier feel... it's too easy to get too much info with this. I'm not saying it isn't a bad or creative idea, not in the least. But it would take that special "no local" feel away from wormholes and push them to being too similar to lesser systems outside the holes. I think that depends on the range of the scanner. Seeing/hearing blips as someone passes close to you is one thing. Seeing them at 5 AU is probably too much unless you are actively d-scanning for them. I don't know an appropriate range.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:16:00 - [28] Tie it to sec status perhaps... the further down in sec status the system is the weaker the scanner gets. Once you get to -0.9 or -0.95 it fails completely, making the more dangerous systems actually more dangerous. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Messoroz AQUILA INC	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:24:00 - [29] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Tie it to sec status perhaps... the further down in sec status the system is the weaker the scanner gets. Once you get to -0.9 or -0.95 it fails completely, making the more dangerous systems actually more dangerous. Sec status part sounds awesome, because wspace is superior to null, it is all -1.0, but factoring sec in the null will actually make it more interesting given that the -0.9 systems will be complete jew heavens with dozens of Havens and what not.
Callic Veratar	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:41:00 - [30] This could be awesome if it was tied to something similar to the tactical overlay (maybe a scanning overlay?). That way, you can have the sweeps moving around your ship and approximate distance scales on it. Fiddling with the resolution and distance would allow you to change the sweep speed and detail gained. Doing something like this wouldn't replace D-Scan and at the same time would not force another window on your screen. There's even potential to (optionally) allow each pilot to broadcast an ID number (something in the billions, to make it "secure") that could be used to identify you on the scanner to those who you gave your number.

Callic Veratar	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:44:00 - [31] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Tie it to sec status perhaps... the further down in sec status the system is the weaker the scanner gets. Once you get to -0.9 or -0.95 it fails completely, making the more dangerous systems actually more dangerous. I like that idea, in a 1.0 system, scanning is easy and gives good information on wide sweep settings. ie You could pick up an interceptor at warp flying 10AU away. Compared to a -1.0 system where you'd have trouble picking up a small fleet at 1AU.

CCP Cascade	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian @ CCP Cascade - I do understand that, but what about what I suggested in post 8? Again I am not a programmer, so I wouldn't be able to tell you with certainty that it is or is not possible. But if it was possible, I guess an overlay to the current camera view would make sense. You do a scan, you get a response, you see red dots all around you, you right click them to find out more, or narrow down the angle and do the automatic scan which takes longer time to get an overview of what is around that specific planet. But what would X, Y, Z tell you as a player? Even if the majority of EVE players are above average intelligence of a MMO player, not everyone knows what to make of a (-3000km, 3000km, -12km) reading. I guess a textbased representation of it could be something like this: NAME \| SHIP TYPE \| DISTANCE \| DIRECTION \| Me.......Frigate........10000km.....(Two arrows) Arrow one, horizontal, arrow two vertical. That way your client does the math for you to decide which direction the scan signature is, so you can spin your camera around until the arrows are shown as "-", since then you would be pointing at the signature and then you'll know where to warp to find that miner. More constructive threads like this guys!

Plyn	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:46:00 - [33] +1 Could have it display on the solar system map, which takes care of the "is it 3D?" issue... or, because that would probably make it too easy to "insta-probe" people, could show on a 2D interface with relative altitude compared to you, like how radar functions IRL. Could still use it to try to insta-probe people, but it would take a little longer because you'd have to convert your mental perception of their location to a spot on the map. Don't like the idea of it showing anything about cloakies though. Sure it would be handy to detect them in some way on local, but if you create a visual representation of where they are, even if vague, you're still going to know when that recon/sb lands on grid with you. On the other hand, a high-cpu module could be added to show cloakies vaguely... I don't mind people having the ability to do it, if they have to invest time and attention to it beyond what everyone is doing already, and as long as it detracts heavily from whatever else they might be doing.

CCP Cascade	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Callic Veratar There's even potential to (optionally) allow each pilot to broadcast an ID number (something in the billions, to make it "secure") that could be used to identify you on the scanner to those who you gave your number. Only if you are able to somehow "hack" it and disguise yourself as a friendly!

Callic Veratar	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:51:00 - [35] I don't know that the load generated by something like this would be as bad as DScan. DScan picks up everything within it's range when it's used. This tool would be only for finding other pilots, preferably on a 10-30s delay. The important thing about a menu like this, is that I'd need to be able to do space stuff at the same time as watching for threats. I wouldn't really want it to require me to swap back and forth between the system view and the space view.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:03:00 - [36] Originally by: Callic Veratar Originally by: Ingvar Angst Tie it to sec status perhaps... the further down in sec status the system is the weaker the scanner gets. Once you get to -0.9 or -0.95 it fails completely, making the more dangerous systems actually more dangerous. I like that idea, in a 1.0 system, scanning is easy and gives good information on wide sweep settings. ie You could pick up an interceptor at warp flying 10AU away. Compared to a -1.0 system where you'd have trouble picking up a small fleet at 1AU. No, higher than that... maybe -.89 or so. It needs to be ineffective completely in wormholes or you're killing one of the most endearing traits in there... the warm glow of not knowing. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Callic Veratar	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:07:00 - [37] Edited by: Callic Veratar on 19/08/2011 19:10:28 Originally by: Ingvar Angst Originally by: Callic Veratar Originally by: Ingvar Angst Tie it to sec status perhaps... the further down in sec status the system is the weaker the scanner gets. Once you get to -0.9 or -0.95 it fails completely, making the more dangerous systems actually more dangerous. I like that idea, in a 1.0 system, scanning is easy and gives good information on wide sweep settings. ie You could pick up an interceptor at warp flying 10AU away. Compared to a -1.0 system where you'd have trouble picking up a small fleet at 1AU. No, higher than that... maybe -.89 or so. It needs to be ineffective completely in wormholes or you're killing one of the most endearing traits in there... the warm glow of not knowing. Unless you wanted to make it really fun and in wormholes it would occasionally spew false positives and false negatives. You might be able to trust it, but might not. Though, that changes it from passive paranoia of not knowing to active paranoia knowing that you might be being lied to. It could also give you variation on the intel you can gain from different wormholes, each class giving its own style of false info.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:10:00 - [38] Another thing... active scanning has always historically made the scanner easier to find. If something like this were activated it should: Drain cap, enough to really matter. Give your position away with ease, such that a ship's scanner would find you to 100%, similar to a combat site. Interfere with/ prevent your ability to warp, or disable on warp requiring you to start over. Warn all other ships in range, probably even further out, that there's active scanning going on. Think "sonar ping". You scream your presence to determine someone elses. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:13:00 - [39] Originally by: Callic Veratar Edited by: Callic Veratar on 19/08/2011 19:10:28 Originally by: Ingvar Angst Originally by: Callic Veratar Originally by: Ingvar Angst Tie it to sec status perhaps... the further down in sec status the system is the weaker the scanner gets. Once you get to -0.9 or -0.95 it fails completely, making the more dangerous systems actually more dangerous. I like that idea, in a 1.0 system, scanning is easy and gives good information on wide sweep settings. ie You could pick up an interceptor at warp flying 10AU away. Compared to a -1.0 system where you'd have trouble picking up a small fleet at 1AU. No, higher than that... maybe -.89 or so. It needs to be ineffective completely in wormholes or you're killing one of the most endearing traits in there... the warm glow of not knowing. Unless you wanted to make it really fun and in wormholes it would occasionally spew false positives and false negatives. You might be able to trust it, but might not. Though, that changes it from passive paranoia of not knowing to active paranoia knowing that you might be being lied to. It could also give you variation on the intel you can gain from different wormholes, each class giving its own style of false info. Screw that. Last thing we need is a system that actually punishes wormholers. I'd rather drop combats and find you that way. It's not a good system for wormholes, that's why it should be ineffective by the time you reach the lowest sec statuses. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Callic Veratar	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Another thing... active scanning has always historically made the scanner easier to find. If something like this were activated it should: Drain cap, enough to really matter. Give your position away with ease, such that a ship's scanner would find you to 100%, similar to a combat site. Interfere with/ prevent your ability to warp, or disable on warp requiring you to start over. Warn all other ships in range, probably even further out, that there's active scanning going on. Think "sonar ping". You scream your presence to determine someone elses. This could go two ways. First our current system could be "passive" and turning it on would be active. Active would give you scanning data, better targetting, but a massive sig radius (and maybe primary target for any FoF weapons). Alternately, our current system is active with the scanner built in, (maybe bump the sig radius of all ships up by 40-50%). Turning it off would drop your sig radius down to almost nothing, but it may also disable targeting, weapon tracking, scanning, and even the overview...

Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:15:00 - [41] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 19:19:30 Originally by: CCP Cascade But what would X, Y, Z tell you as a player? Even if the majority of EVE players are above average intelligence of a MMO player, not everyone knows what to make of a (-3000km, 3000km, -12km) reading. I guess a textbased representation of it could be something like this: NAME \| SHIP TYPE \| DISTANCE \| DIRECTION \| Me.......Frigate........10000km.....(Two arrows) What I mean is... You can reduce the amount of information in any given starsystem into something that Looks Like This Pure "packman" mathematics and physics (aka no Physics). My ship, as it moves would be cataloged in terms of it's position on the x,y and Z axis and then would be plotted on a grid and compared to all others "dots" on said grid. 50 Packmans are not hard for a server to keep track of, especially when they are being recorded only as a dot, a ship type and a character name. By taking the complex information of EVE Online's physics and simply "cataloging" a ships location into what amounts to a "Dos Prompt" complex sets of information could be conveyed with very little math done via the server and very little bandwidth. So If We Ignore Possible Client Hacks/Exploits The server could be sending my client a complete (and highly reduced) slow moving "Packman version" of what is happening inside of the entire starsystem that I am in via Dos Promt Text ONLY. My client can then do the math in terms of what I actually see and what is displayed on my screen with next to no server side load. See?
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Callic Veratar Originally by: Ingvar Angst Another thing... active scanning has always historically made the scanner easier to find. If something like this were activated it should: Drain cap, enough to really matter. Give your position away with ease, such that a ship's scanner would find you to 100%, similar to a combat site. Interfere with/ prevent your ability to warp, or disable on warp requiring you to start over. Warn all other ships in range, probably even further out, that there's active scanning going on. Think "sonar ping". You scream your presence to determine someone elses. This could go two ways. First our current system could be "passive" and turning it on would be active. Active would give you scanning data, better targetting, but a massive sig radius (and maybe primary target for any FoF weapons). Alternately, our current system is active with the scanner built in, (maybe bump the sig radius of all ships up by 40-50%). Turning it off would drop your sig radius down to almost nothing, but it may also disable targeting, weapon tracking, scanning, and even the overview... First is better than second... you shouldn't be punished for not using it, using it should carry the costs. If not using it provides less information or capabilites than current systems do right now in wormholes, you're doing it wrong. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Callic Veratar	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 19:19:30 Originally by: CCP Cascade But what would X, Y, Z tell you as a player? Even if the majority of EVE players are above average intelligence of a MMO player, not everyone knows what to make of a (-3000km, 3000km, -12km) reading. I guess a textbased representation of it could be something like this: NAME \| SHIP TYPE \| DISTANCE \| DIRECTION \| Me.......Frigate........10000km.....(Two arrows) What I mean is... You can reduce the amount of information in any given starsystem into something that Looks Like This Pure "packman" mathematics and physics (aka no Physics). My ship, as it moves would be cataloged in terms of it's position on the x,y and Z axis and then would be plotted on a grid and compared to all others "dots" on said grid. 50 Packmans are not hard for a server to keep track of, especially when they are being recorded only as a dot, a ship type and a character name. By taking the complex information of EVE Online's physics and simply "cataloging" a ships location into what amounts to a "Dos Prompt" complex sets of information could be conveyed with very little math done via the server and very little bandwidth. So If We Ignore Possible Client Hacks/Exploits The server could be sending my client a complete (and highly reduced) slow moving "Packman version" of what is happening inside of the entire starsystem that I am in via Dos Promt Text ONLY. My client can then do the math in terms of what I actually see and what is displayed on my screen with next to no server side load. See? 50 is not hard to keep track of, but what about a missioning system where there are 400 pilots, each on their own grid? Each pilot then gets info about each other pilot (~400x400=16000). It doesn't seem like a lot at first, but it can add up really quickly. You also have to consider that it's not just the server that matters. A user with a low end computer on a slow connection may have to deal with a significant amount more calculation than they're capable of if too much is pushed to the client.
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor The Seventh Day	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:31:00 - [44] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 19:34:04 @ Callic Veratar Never in my life have I hit the 360 Dscan and seen 400 ships (never bothered trying it while blobbing) Even in Jita, if ships on the same grid appeared as a larger "blotch" with minimal information associated with them (and not as individual blips) things start to get allot simpler. In null sec where 2 blobs are going at it, the fight would only have to be interpreted as a really large grid of ships (literally a blob) with no other info required. And if your computer can run shader 4 than it can play EVE and packman at the same time. So I don't really see your issue being a realistic one in terms of actual game play.
zljuka	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:36:00 - [45] Well actually if a ship is a cloaky one, it doesn't mean it shell not be visible on D-scan like that. But definitely there shouldn't be a way to get a warp in on it or to tell if it's on long or short range scanner. Local chats need to be preserved, at least the way they are in WH. Talking in local chat is very important part of a game.
Callic Veratar	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:40:00 - [46] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 19:32:11 Callic Veratar Never in my life have I hit the 360 Dscan and seen 400 ships (never bothered trying it while blobbing) Even in Jita, if ships on the same grid appeared as a larger "blotch" with minimal information associated with them (and not as individual blips) things start to get allot simpler. In null sec where 2 blobs are going at it, the fight would only have to be interpreted as a really large grid of ships (literally a blob) with no other info required. So I don't really see your issue being a realistic one in terms of actual game play. Problems don't come out of common situations, but rare ones. I've never seen fleet lag or a client de-sync, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Unlike D-Scan that's user initiated, this active scanner would run automatically. If every pilot is attempting to pull scanner info it will cause problems. Thinking about it, though, has ruffled some ideas: If you're in the middle of a large blob, the scanner might not be able to work, being jammed by all the nearby pilots. This means a large fleet would be blind without scouts, or at least smaller escort fleets. Composition of such a blob should be hard/impossible to determine for a scanner at range outside a few of the biggest ships in the fleet. (Warning: May contain Titans!)
James Duar Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:50:00 - [47] A submarine-style signals intelligence system could make EVE very cool. Basically, make D-Scan and scanning work more like actual radar with the same risks and limitations. So every ship has some type of direction-finding subspace gear (I'm going with subspace signalling as the means by-which D-scan works). D-Scan gets active and passive modes - passive is always on. Passive mode detects D-scan events as a direction in space and signal intensity based on distance and spread. It doesn't distinguish D-Scans so multiple scans lead to multiple possible triangulation solutions which appear on the map. Active mode produces events - either continuously (active pinging) or manually (so you can fire your scanner once and not reveal yourself). Active mode let's you set 3D direction in space and signal intensity (up to some maximum) thus determining range. Signal returns give results similar to passive, but also give ship types if the return is "intense" enough and maybe a fuzzy shot of hi-slot armaments (i.e. pulses or beams, autocannons or arty etc.) Within this system, things like the on-board anomaly scanner and probes would be considered innately passive systems: anomalies are big and spotted from stellar telemetry, and combat probes are used precisely because they don't "paint" ships (or because they let you triangulate directly). I think if you did this, it would let you get rid of local because the replacement would be incredibly awesome and have a lot of possibility: let ships fit out with D-scan power boost modules for longer range scans, or resolution boosters for long range passive detection. Let people counter by scattering large objects around to give false readings (without upping your scan power). Cov Ops and other cloaky ships are effectively countered since they can't "go active" without revealing their activity and potentially position (if they don't move around constantly). Gangs of ships could mess with passive ships by deciding to spread out and fire up their active radar, throwing passive blips all over the map. Probably most importantly though: it's not implicitly one-sided. Both the attacker and the defender gain from this - if you're being scanned (or someone is attempting to scan you) - you know. Scans can over-shoot - a ship with good scan capabilities can pick up passive emissions without giving a return signal (or cloak and do the same at shorter range).
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.08.19 20:43:00 - [48] Great idea bud, I like it. Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Newt Rondanse	Posted - 2011.08.19 21:32:00 - [49] Well, it would certainly be a good replacement for Dscan, but it is serving a completely different purpose than local. Even the intel function of local only tells you who is around, it doesn't give you any clue as to where they are in the system or what they are flying or any of the other information you get from dscan or your radar.
zljuka	Posted - 2011.08.19 22:09:00 - [50] Originally by: James Duar Edited by: James Duar on 19/08/2011 20:58:51 Edited by: James Duar on 19/08/2011 20:31:24 EDIT: Giving this some thought, I think in practice you'd probably implement it on a per-grid scale at a 1 second tick-rate (same as the physics system). So firing a scan from any ship on a grid would give scan returns to all ships on that grid. It would be an interesting effect letting ships "stack" to boost each other's sensor range. How much load on a server would it create? I mean 1 second radar tick?

Black Dranzer Caldari	Posted - 2011.08.19 23:42:00 - [51] Edited by: Black Dranzer on 19/08/2011 23:41:59 I'd like to take an alternative to this. Two types of scans. System scan and focus scan. The system scan is what you see above. It's basically a sort of mini-view of the entire system. It reveals "blobs" of ship activity which are basically grids. For example, if you have 50 ships on a gate, it's going to show up as one big red dot on scan. Or maybe a blue dot, depending on hostility or general ship size or whatever. The details are less important than the general feel. You could adjust range and resolution; Range does what it says, resolution influences how much data those blobs actually give you initially. The amount of time it takes to scan is a product of the two. The lines are warp signatures; They're what you get if your scan finds a ship mid-warp. Now, if you click on one of those balls, you can perform a focused scan, which gives you detailed information like you'd usually get from a d-scan. Perhaps it takes more time, perhaps it's not as accurate. Maybe it gives you pilot names, though. Again, I'm being purposely vague here. Essentially it tells you what ships are on that grid. Now there are three things I'd want to note here: Firstly, you can't actually WARP to these grids. Oh, you can get a good idea of the location, but without probes, you ain't landing on them. Secondly, cloaked ships would show up on scan. This would actually solve the AFK cloaker dilemah rather neatly, I think; Because you see, you'd be able to tell where a cloaked ship is, but only their general area, and secondly, you could tell when they were warping. At the same time, you wouldn't be able to scan them out or reveal them. You'd just be able to tell what grid they're on. The average cloaker wouldn't actually lose any real stealth advantage. Thirdly, If you did this, I'd probably remove local. I'm not sure what you'd do to Wormhole space to make up for this. Maybe scans are fuzzier in wormholes or something? You could do other things with this. You could make scan resolution affected by what kind of ship you're in, so that certain ships have more accurate scanners than others. It also wouldn't really require much additional content development; It'd mainly be recycling readily existing graphics. So yeah, my take on the OP's idea. It's technically a d-scan replacement rather than improvement, because, well.. there's no direction anymore. So, yeah. Thoughts?
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group	Posted - 2011.08.19 23:54:00 - [52] Be advised that any delay to a automated scanning system has to be comparable to that of a combat probe set. I bring this up because a proper amount of D-scan FU and probes on standby could get a warpable hit on a ship in 6 seconds or less. It takes a little practice but it works. Being able to set it is reasonable, with less information per cycle, like a rader - nice idea, but if there is any reason why this "radar" didn't pick up small ships, then you might as well not even have it, because the ship that probes you out and arrives first will be a tackler. It would, since modern fighter aircraft have it (having worked on them myself), be nice to have some kind of warning when being picked up on someoene elses scanner. At best, at least when being scanned specifically on a narrow beam. This would really help because being just a blip on a wide sweep gives an opponent a chance to choose: "Do I go after this without knowing, and hence no warning for my victim, or should I find out first, but this will warn him?". (That sort of thing is what makes the game interesting). One thing that the vast majority of players agree on: if local goes, there must be some revamping of the directional scanning system or this is going to become a bigger clickfest than PI.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group	Posted - 2011.08.20 00:03:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Cascade Originally by: Callic Veratar There's even potential to (optionally) allow each pilot to broadcast an ID number (something in the billions, to make it "secure") that could be used to identify you on the scanner to those who you gave your number. Only if you are able to somehow "hack" it and disguise yourself as a friendly! A system that exists in our reality is called "IFF" or transponder and it actually has several modes. For example, when you look at a radar in a air traffic control tower, and you see the planes on it with data floating about the little dot, that's "Mode 2". It's not reall "Identify Friend or Foe". That's actually refered to as "mode 4". A military aircraft can send out mode 2 data, which is really helpful for non-military systems too. Mode 4 is a more secure system that I won't get into but there are numerous recorded incidents of what happens when the system "gets it wrong". If ships had switchable transponders featured along these modes, players would have a choice of optionally "keeping local" by allowing their ships to automatically identify in local - this would be helpful for system defenders who see as many blips on their radar as they see in local - if such defenders don't mind being easily visible to any offenders. On the other hand, a "mode 4"-ish system would only generate identification data to corp or fleet members, but otherwise not be visible or useful to anybody else. Finally, empire navies would not know if someone who has their transponder off in secure space is a criminal or enemy or not - this could give players at war a chance to decide if they want to run from the local navy or another corp or player they are at war with who might be more effective at catching them - this would only work if local were removed from high sec, of course, but anybody flying around in high sec without their identity transponder switched on is going to be too busy getting chased around by the faction navy (this would certainly make wardecs more interesting).
James Duar Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.08.20 07:09:00 - [54] Originally by: zljuka Originally by: James Duar Edited by: James Duar on 19/08/2011 20:58:51 Edited by: James Duar on 19/08/2011 20:31:24 EDIT: Giving this some thought, I think in practice you'd probably implement it on a per-grid scale at a 1 second tick-rate (same as the physics system). So firing a scan from any ship on a grid would give scan returns to all ships on that grid. It would be an interesting effect letting ships "stack" to boost each other's sensor range. How much load on a server would it create? I mean 1 second radar tick? From the Team Gridlock dev blogs it was mentioned the physics simulation basically runs at a 1 second tick-rate, and actual physics was a very small percentage of the load. If the signals system ran at the same tick-rate, and had a grid-level resolution, then the workload would lend itself to being easily minimized. The workload would go something like: 1. at the start of each tick, all the signals being fired from a grid are summed together, and intercepted grids are determined. So each grid can "emit" 1 signal to another grid, which has a summed intensity of all the signals being fired on that grid. 2. when the physics for other grids are run, objects have their signal returns summed up when the object is enumerated. 3. since all ships on grid "share" signals, the same return data is sent to every client. The most work computationally would be in 1, but it lends itself to optimization: the number of grids in system changes only slowly, and they're fixed points in space. Each grid can easily maintain an oct-tree or other structure, with the distances to other grids on the leaves. Scans with a narrow-beam just walk the tree to get find which grids they're hitting, and then the distance calculations are already done for them (no square roots) - the entire thing becomes a simple look up operation. And, since we sum signals, for each distance/direction combo we only do this operation once. So it becomes a very fast look up. In (2), we're simplying tagging a small referencing operation to the physics simulation - the list of objects on grid is added as signal returns. (3) is at worst, a memcpy, and is efficient because all ships on grid (ergo all clients) get the same data simply (presumably a situation amenable to the new network stack).
King Rothgar Path of the Fallen	Posted - 2011.08.20 12:02:00 - [55] ZOMG radar with an IFF system. This is so futuristic! Oh wait... Cheap shots aside, I like this proposal a lot. Cloaked ships should of course not show up, since they are cloaked. Sort of like a stealth plane of today. Perhaps give them some return, but have it be too vague to be of use other than to say "yes, there is a ship somewhere in system." I would give them 360 by 360 degree scan however, 180 is too limiting. I'd also flip your proposal around on scan times, narrow scan arcs should be faster, not slower than the full arc. I'd simply give it a set rotation speed and let the size of the arc determine how long it takes to complete a cycle. That said, having the cycle slow down for more detailed/longer range scans would certainly be good. That way you could have a fast but very general scan or slow it down to have much slower but more accurate scans with greater range. So it would have the following controls: scan cone size (360,180,90 and so on, same as now) and strength (let's say 0% to 100%). Increasing strength would result in more information and greater range, but greatly increase the time required for a scan of any given arc. As a further complication, I'd also like a radar warning system added too. It should be possible to see a ship by listening for it's radar signal and using it against them. Obviously you'd need the option to turn off your own radar for stealthier travel/hunting to go with this. End result would be active scanning for ships and passive detection of those who are scanning. Ideally, both could be used for locating and identifying ships. I would mold scan probes into this system as well. Making it so that a probe launcher would become a "high accuracy radar/RWR" or something that would allow you to use this new d-scanner for getting warp ins. Without the revised launcher, you wouldn't be able to do that still. Not sure if any of this is really viable in eve, but I'd like to see it happen.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.20 12:24:00 - [56] 1. Cloaked ships showing up on scan... bad idea. 2. Automating any DScan functions - bad idea. DScan does and should require human interaction to activate. Earn your intel, don't have it spoon fed like nubs using local. 3. TMI. Wormholes have limited intel gathering for a reason, and that's one of the beauties of them. Like I'd mentioned before, if something like this were to crawl from the depths of hell into being, it needs to degrade with sec status to become completely ineffective as you approach, say, -0.9 or -0.95. 4. If you used something active like this, you should completely give your position away, enough that you can be warped to. Look, it's cute. It's pretty. It would also screw up the frontier lifestyle wormholes provide, and that needs to be taken into consideration. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.08.20 13:28:00 - [57] Cloaked ships being detectable in WHs - awful, gamebreaking idea. Cloaked ships bing detectable in nullsec - only acceptable if the detector can be disabled easily by a single player. Such as a deployable structure with limited range (not at a POS) that has ~100k EHP before being disabled. Anything that gives you effortless, infallible, system-wide intel = bad idea.
Lady Aja	Posted - 2011.08.22 03:36:00 - [58] to all those that ***** about removing local is bad. well how many other mmo's you see with local?
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari draketrain	Posted - 2011.08.23 05:23:00 - [59] Originally by: CCP Cascade Nice constructive suggestion! Keep it coming. I like the idea of different "modes" and that they give more information if you are investing more time. I also like the idea that you have to click on a ship to find out if it is hostile or not, that way you are able to mask your radar signature by staying close to a blob (blending into an already large scan signature). Will it deal with cloaked ships at all? Also, what about giving different ships different kinds of scan time? How will it deal with moving ships? i like the idea that cloaked ship would show up if it has been moving i.e. every ship which uses engines or warps will leave a "trail" which can be scanned.
Miso Hitome	Posted - 2011.08.23 07:34:00 - [60] I likey the concept Eternum. A few things to add to this discussion: Set filters on the scanner similar to the overview filters, so I can ignore friendly ships, wrecks, and structures. Also would help in high and low sec for finding war targets. An option to ignore objects on your grid on the scanner would help to reduce clutter as well. For long range scans, deep space probes have enough range to scan most systems, and can be dropped far enough away to not be detected on current d-scan range, so the long range option is already in-game. Ship sensor strength/signature should effect your scanning range, as well as scanning skills, modules, local effects (similar to wormhole effects) and deployable structures. In essence, the better your sensor system compaired to your electronic footprint, the farther your scan, and more detail is available. (Re-reading this, it seems to be an indirect nerf to shield drakes, heh)

Miso Hitome	Posted - 2011.08.23 07:36:00 - [61] Structure concepts: Sensor Disruption Array: 375000 MW, 200 tf, reduces ship d-scanner range by 50%, this effect may be mitigated by ships with a scanning role bonus. -May only be installed by corporations belonging to the sovereign entity. -Only one may be anchored per system. -May not be anchored any closer to the starbase shield than 15km. -May not be anchored inside the starbase shield. System Scanning Array: 255000 MW, 75 tf, replaces a friendly ship's d-scan with its own scan, and an effective range of 16 au, multiple scanning arrays may be filtered or combined as the user sees fit. The system scanning array may be hacked to provide scanning data to unauthorized users. Additional starbase arrays online and outside the starbase shield may have negative effects on scan data. -May not be anchored any closer to the starbase shield than 15km. -May not be anchored inside the starbase shield. Scan Data Analysis Array: 375000 MW, 175 tf, Upgrades a system scanning array with a chance to detect cloaked ships dependant on type of cloak used and pilot cloaking skill, with a prototype cloak being easy to pick up while skilled pilots using a covert-ops cloak are quite difficult to detect. -May not be anchored any closer to the starbase shield than 15km. -May not be anchored inside the starbase shield.
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.08.23 14:20:00 - [62] I like alot of the ideas that are thrown around here like: - Friend of foe authentication - Way to assertain the very rough location of cloaked ships - Way to see moving/warping ships - Turning D-SCAN and Probe scan into 1 big (that starts very rough) tool as it should be - warning if your being scanned - Effort and time versus results In the future ships should be able to assertain a few things like the fact that your activly being scanned or being warped to. The earlier EVE HUD had a sort of 3D radar incorperated that was taken out because it served no real purpose. Perhaps somebody can work something out that way. You can see a picture on that here (right hand of screen) - Hilmar getur ekki tala= vi= ¦ig n·na, hann er a= fara ß japanska Tfskuverslun.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.23 15:24:00 - [63] Originally by: Ciar Meara I like alot of the ideas that are thrown around here like: - Friend of foe authentication - Way to assertain the very rough location of cloaked ships - Way to see moving/warping ships - Turning D-SCAN and Probe scan into 1 big (that starts very rough) tool as it should be - warning if your being scanned - Effort and time versus results In the future ships should be able to assertain a few things like the fact that your activly being scanned or being warped to. The earlier EVE HUD had a sort of 3D radar incorperated that was taken out because it served no real purpose. Perhaps somebody can work something out that way. You can see a picture on that here (right hand of screen) Wow, you people insist on sucking the fun out of wormholes, don't you? The last thing we need is something turning wormholes into another version of nullsec with way too much intel for what's supposed to be dangerous space. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Mentira	Posted - 2011.08.23 21:56:00 - [64] But you guys only think about blowing stuff up for what other players need weeks to rebuild. Take local away in 0.0... fine, but don't whine if there will be less industrialists than before (which spaked the discussion of revamping 0.0 to attract more indy chars) WH doesn't have local, but all WH residents have to use dscan all the time to see something bad coming (although they can't see cloaked ships). Now you want to revamp dscan to work differently in 0.0, to take local away there, but remove dscan completely in WH. I don't think, many people will stay in WH under those circumstances. At any time a new incoming WH can be opened from somewhere and the system i live in is swarmed with people and I have 0 chance to get a warning before they land on me. Not even in a plex (grav) where I sit in a covetor or hulk mining around. The barge wont be warping fast enough to escape and I would have no chance to see the people probing for me because I can't use dscan. So for me the only thing you guys want : victims. Sure, other MMOs don't have local, but aren't there safe areas ? Or designated PVP areas ? Because every MMO will loose a lot of player subscription the second you are on the loosing side all the time. Low WHs don't support corps, a C3 supports 2-3 players only or it starts to get very boring there for days. Better 1-2 players only. C1 and C2 i think is for single players only. So there is NO WAY you can set up scouts on all open Entrances/Exits (and/or put bubbles there) and actively scan with probes if new sigs appear (as in : a new WH from somewhere being opened)
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group	Posted - 2011.08.24 01:24:00 - [65] One of the selling points of this game is the risk and variability. I would expect that wormholes are going to wreak havoc on long-distance sensor and detection systems. Maybe even the sleepers won't like them.
Mentira	Posted - 2011.08.24 14:02:00 - [66] I understand risk and I take the risk all the time, but there is a difference between calculated risk and just risk. Mining doesn't make a lot of money, not even in a WH. I use it only for local building (ammo, ships, reactions). So I have to question myself, if the calculation will be having me after all on the winning side. Means, will i make more money mining ore until my ship get blown out of the sky or not. I also have to take things into that equation like : cost of barge + fitting, implants etc. Even with a Covetor the base fitting might be around 35m + 2x +4 implants at least (for the current training) + new clone upgrade. Means I need to mine at least 4 hours in peace just to cover the costs. Then add another 4 hours to have some profit of 80m ISK... that's after all 10m per hour. No thanks! On the other hand with dscan (or local in 0.0) I can calculate the risk. I need to pay attention, if i don't do it, it is my fault. If I see the probes on scan I run, because my barge can't fight anything. On your argument is invalid about that they don't know either, if I'm there. It is true, but they have the advantage because they can drop probes without me knowing about it. And i don't get the chance to know about it without dscan. Or a radar so slow, which needs longer to detect the probes than they need to find me. Either way, no indy char is gonna go for it and it is against CCPs goal to bring more industry to 0.0
Messoroz AQUILA INC	Posted - 2011.08.24 18:46:00 - [67] Originally by: Mentira Low WHs don't support corps, a C3 supports 2-3 players only or it starts to get very boring there for days. Better 1-2 players only. C1 and C2 i think is for single players only. So there is NO WAY you can set up scouts on all open Entrances/Exits (and/or put bubbles there) and actively scan with probes if new sigs appear (as in : a new WH from somewhere being opened) You are just a bloody idiot. C2 can support entire alliances if you actually grow some balls and use your static.
Callic Veratar	Posted - 2011.08.25 19:26:00 - [68] I understand WH concerns with a wide area local-ish scanner. The idea is not to give all space instant feedback of what ships are where in a system, but a fuzzy image of where the active ships are. Lay on top of that a maximum range to the scanner of a few AU, plus scanning interference on lower-sec systems (plus ship and pos based jammers) with a built in delay, and it will hardly be as effective as the current system. Especially if turning it on broadcasts your location to other pilots (or sleepers, possibly in the case of wormholes). Yes, you could sit there running it to get better than d-scan intel, but at the same time you're not hidden any more.
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.08.26 09:50:00 - [69] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Wow, you people insist on sucking the fun out of wormholes, don't you? The last thing we need is something turning wormholes into another version of nullsec with way too much intel for what's supposed to be dangerous space. I like wormholes also, I lived in a couple for a while. But the information suggested that you could get isn't available on hand. If you really want to find out if there are cloaked ships, where they are etc, you should work for that data and invest in modules, fits and time. Time here is the issue and effort, this information should not be available on short notice when launching a few drones. It should be refined, skilled for and analysed even then it shouldn't be easy. Its more fun if people can actually find eachother, and if one of those persons can hunt for the other, or turn the tables on the hunter. - Hilmar getur ekki tala= vi= ¦ig n·na, hann er a= fara f japanska tfskuverslun.
Ya Rayah Panala	Posted - 2011.08.26 10:11:00 - [70] Lets keep it realistic for a second here. Light takes 80 minutes to travel from Jupiter to Earth. This scanning system would only work if some minimal delay would be included... And to be honest, we already have a scanning system, why add a new one? WHY fix what AINT broken? Local is a CHAT room as important as corp chat. IT should stay as it is.

Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2011.08.26 10:24:00 - [71] Originally by: Ya Rayah Panala Local is a CHAT room as important as corp chat. IT should stay as it is. I agree with this guy a lot. I don't however mind some kind of delay or having cloakers removed from local as long other mechanics are in place to keep it balanced. 3-5 sec cloaking delay from the time activating cloak and unable to activate when logging into space until out of warp. - I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew...
Ya Rayah Panala	Posted - 2011.08.26 10:44:00 - [72] We went through this many times, the cloak mechanics are alright as they are. People will find ways to exploit it and grief using it (if they can manage not to appear in local until next to a target pewing them, they'll find ways to exploit it too).
Soldarius Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.08.26 12:43:00 - [73] I had this huge wall of text going. But as I was wittling it down and shedding the useless and already implemented parts of my idea, I came to the conclusion that the current system actually works pretty well. I would only make a couple changes. First, delayed local everywhere. Don't cry yet. Read on. Intel shouldn't be quite so easy. Second, add a transponder to every ship. (RP excuse: CONCORD has decided we are a getting a little crowded. So they need a method to better track capsuleers while in empire for safety reasons.) It can be implemented by a simple on/off button to the left of your current HUD. While it is on, the transponder will show your face in local, and your ship info will show in all players' passive scanners as described below. Outside of high-sec, you can turn it off. Third, the dscan will have active and passive modes. Both modes will display on the tabular scan results interface, and solar system map. The tabular display could be replaced by a graphical one as described above, or perhaps a tactical display overlay with vectors and ranges. These results will not be warpable. The active mode works the same as the current dscan, except that it will indicate the rough location of cloaked ships, and it will give your presence away to anyone in range of the scan, which leads me to... The passive mode, which will receive and display all received transponder, active scan, and probe transmissions. It will not give your presence away. In this way, everyone will still have a way of knowing that someone is in system without the overwhelming benefit of instant local intel, and delayed local chat will still be available. All functionality is retained, except for instant local, and new functionality is added to better improve intel gathering through rewarding increased activity and risk taking. As far as cloaking and afk cloaking, I think the active scan must be able to detect cloaked ships. Otherwise cloaky gate camps may become rather OP. And there will be no point to afk cloaking as a tool of terror. This can actually allow a smart pilot to find and decloak a ship on grid. So perhaps that is a little too powerful. Maybe just a distance result with no direction. I also wonder what would happen if one were to cloak with their transponder on. Perhaps they should be interlocked to prevent that, similar to regular modules. "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage missiles." - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 amended
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.26 15:41:00 - [74] Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 26/08/2011 15:42:37 Originally by: Ciar Meara I like wormholes also, I lived in a couple for a while. But the information suggested that you could get isn't available on hand. If you really want to find out if there are cloaked ships, where they are etc, you should work for that data and invest in modules, fits and time. Time here is the issue and effort, this information should not be available on short notice when launching a few drones. It should be refined, skilled for and analysed even then it shouldn't be easy. Its more fun if people can actually find eachother, and if one of those persons can hunt for the other, or turn the tables on the hunter. There's no problem finding people now in wormholes if you're looking. Not finding someone that's cloaked up somewhere in the hole... who cares? If we know he's there we're prepared anyhow. If we don't know he's there, well, we're prepared as though he is. We don't need another crutch tool that everyone begins to rely on to see if there's a cloaked ship in the hole. We live in wormholes. Our nuts have already dropped and we're past the "binky" stage. I want to find the cloaked person when he uncloaks, shows up on the overview and my heart starts pumping in my chest, the adrenaline begins to enter the bloodstream and you start to feel truly alive. We don't need more tools replacing our balls and that overall "Oh **!" burst of excitement that sneaks up on us. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships** are the future!
Faith Shazzer	Posted - 2011.08.26 16:06:00 - [75] There are a lot of great proposal in here and most of them with lowsec/Nullsec in mind, which is of course where the "local"-intel is used the most and where people want it to change So, to make it easier for this thread and for Ingvar to stop complaining about WH-tactics we should agree that this "advanced" directional-radar scanning is actually not usable in wormholes due to local anomalies in the higher frequency spectrum caused through the sleeper technology. Pilots in these systems have thus to rely on "old" directional scanners. (the current one) One problem solved, please go on.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.26 16:28:00 - [76] Originally by: Faith Shazzer There are a lot of great proposal in here and most of them with lowsec/Nullsec in mind, which is of course where the "local"-intel is used the most and where people want it to change So, to make it easier for this thread and for Ingvar to stop complaining about WH-tactics we should agree that this "advanced" directional-radar scanning is actually not usable in wormholes due to local anomalies in the higher frequency spectrum caused through the sleeper technology. Pilots in these systems have thus to rely on "old" directional scanners. (the current one) One problem solved, please go on. Have it fail at all sec levels below -0.95. Besides, someone has to remind people that there are other folks with a stake in this, not just the null-bunnies. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!
Souverainiste Corsairs Inc. Waterboard	Posted - 2011.08.26 16:48:00 - [77] And yet again, a CLOAKING DEVICE is meant to be CLOAKING, not semi-cloaked for 5 mins till someone scans you.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.26 16:53:00 - [78] Originally by: Souverainiste And yet again, a CLOAKING DEVICE is meant to be CLOAKING, not semi-cloaked for 5 mins till someone scans you. Which is exactly why a cloaking device, when active, should remove you from local and remove your ability to see local. Monocles are so two weeks ago. Sparkle ships are the future!


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