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Mandos2k	Posted - 2005.03.01 16:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Mandos2k on 01/03/2005 22:40:22 Edited by: Mandos2k on 01/03/2005 22:39:50 Training for this crappy small and medium mining barge takes longer than to train for an Apo/Mega/etc., but are less effective with same skills. Which reason could be to train for a barge? I don’t know. Well, the large one IS better than the Apo, but seriously: I don’t like mining that much that I would train skills a so damn long time like training for the Covetor that I would do so. What’s up with this post now? I’ve got a pretty easy to realize idea to tweak barges slightly that they’re worth using and skilling for them: Small barge: Add another high-slot and set the required industry skill down from lvl5 to lvl4. Small barges would become interesting for people thinking about a mining career, but don’t have enough ISK for a BS. The barge would still be better than most other ships around, but not as good as a Megathron or Apocalypse. Because of the slightly reduced pre-requirement of industry lvl5 to lvl4 it becomes attractive to everyone who earns his money with mining from time to time. Medium barge: Add another high-slot and set the required mining skill from lvl4 up to lvl5 (and of course industry back to lvl5). Medium barges would now be able to outmine even “the mighty Apocalypse” and become attractive to everyone who mines a lot, but does not want to be a professional. Skilling for a medium barge takes a lot of time when you haven’t got most required skills yet, but it does not take too long. Increasing the mining skill from lvl4 to lvl5 ensures that small barges are still worthy to consider using them. Though medium barges keep attractive too, because of their higher ore output. Large barge: Add another high-slot and set the required mining skill from lvl4 up to lvl5. A big mining barge takes pretty much time to skill for, but now they would rule by far the asteroid belts. They are meant for those who want to be professional miners and invest a lot of skill time in this section. Even the “mighty Apocalypse” would just be a small light compared to this roid-massacre-causing-biest. Definitely worth all its exertions. I bet the sight of mining BATTLEships would be reduced and in addition barges a more frequent sight for mining and worth using/skilling for them. Or haven't you been a little irritated when u first heard that battleships are the best mining ships? Even now with *specialized* mining ships build by a *for mining specialized* corporation (ORE)? I’ve been… . cheers Mandos2k
Andrue	Posted - 2005.03.01 16:59:00 - [2] I maintain that the best thing CCP could have done would be to give the mining barges a huge hold (13k perhaps). Something that would eliminate drag and drop every two or three minutes. Then they could have reduced the output so that it was slightly worse than an Apoc. I think those changes would mean people would buy and use them simply to avoid drag and drop without resorting to..ahem..alternative methods. I would certainly be prepared to invest in a mining barge and suffer a drop in income in exchange for getting rid of drag and drop. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Vashy Stampede	Posted - 2005.03.01 16:59:00 - [3] Can't say I agree. L barge is better than any ship. That you're complaining about longer training time is a bit weak IMO. Mining barges aren't supposed to be easily accessable to anyone who can't afford a BS like an apoc or mega (and why should they be?) Compare them to other stuff like frigs and cruisers and you'll find out they work out relatively fine. If you said something along the lines of "totally useless as far as defence go", then you'd have a small point, but even that doesn't hold much ground, as it's a mining ship and not a battleship :) The best things in life aren't things.
Larno	Posted - 2005.03.01 17:04:00 - [4] I agree with Mandos2k.
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.03.01 17:07:00 - [5] A medium mining barge can mine as much as a six turret battleship, and only costs about 20m to fit out. Industry 5 isn't a big hurdle, only taking around 7 days to train for most people. Considering that a battleship can easily take a month to mine for if you're just using Cruisers, the mining barge is a good alternative. Also, it can mine Ice, which the Megathron can't, and due to the rounding systems used for rare minerals, a medium barge is just as good at mining rares as an Apoc, and the large is 50% better. They are solid and cost effective ships, for when one has to mine. Harry Voyager
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.03.01 17:12:00 - [6] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 01/03/2005 17:12:26 Frigate -> Cruiser -> Bs Small Barge -> Med Barge -> LArge Barge. Comparing the Small barge with a Bs is silly. --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Frozen Light	Posted - 2005.03.01 17:13:00 - [7] i've done the math quite a few times for the Mining Battleship versus Mining Barge. Heck, I even calculated them for cruiser meant for mining (Osprey anyone?) The thing is, barges get 3% add to the strip miner yild per barge level and do battleship get any? Nope. So, the maximum mining skills for a battleship are Mining V and Astrogeology V. That adds 20% yield to miner II's. On the other hand, barges get an extra 15% yield bonus (Mining Barge lvl V) to strip miner, outclassing an apoc or mega. I've been quite comfortable in my medium barge, thanks to the 3 minute cycle of the lasers. Ever tried to go for a smoke and take a bio break or heck, even go to the fridge in 2 minutes? Unless your fast, you'll miss a whole cycle with Miner II's. I admit I was quite enthusiastic about the barges when they came out but was put down by the yield, requirements and training time. But now that I've used them quite a lot, I'm actually quite satisfied with them and actually training to large barge. Barges weren't meant for casual players but for those who are specializing in the industry field. As a builder myself, I've trained Industry 5 and PE quite a long time ago, so starting to train the barges wasn't too bad. And oh, now with the POS out, can you mine Ice in your mega? Guess not =) /me goes back to work wondering why everybody whines when new content comes out and whines when new content hasn't come out. Also, he prepares for a flame war with flame-retartand clothing -- Currents ships lost in Exodus: 3x Moa, 1x Kestrel, 1x Merlin
Andrue	Posted - 2005.03.01 17:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Harry Voyager They are solid and cost effective ships, for when one has to mine. Harry Voyager But that's missing the point, I think. For someone who isn't a regular miner it may be a valid way of looking at mining barges but you should look at it from the position of a professional miner like me. You need to compare how your bank balance changes if you continue mining in an existing kitted out Apoc against how it changes if you invest in the skills and equipment needed to fly a barge. I worked through the figures around Christmas and came to the conclusion that it would be a month and a half before I was in profit on the investment. IIRC I'd 'waste' nearly a month of skill training as well. So if it would take me a month and a half to be financially profitable how do you value the three and a bit weeks spent learning the skill? -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Helplessandlost	Posted - 2005.03.01 17:19:00 - [9] Heh... Gotta take it in perspective - I've trained large barge on both my accounts. Now the only problem is finding roids that don't pop every couple minutes. Check us out
Jet Collins	Posted - 2005.03.01 17:25:00 - [10] From what i here the small barge is a waist of time. A BC which is lot esier and quick to ge to skill wise can mine alot better than the small Barge. I hear the med is not that bad but I also here a BS can skill mine more than them. So that leave that are which is the best miner out and leave the small and mid only good for mining low levels of ice. Thats my 2 cents
Mandos2k	Posted - 2005.03.01 17:57:00 - [11] First of, nice avatar Vashy! Originally by: Vashy Stampede Can't say I agree. L barge is better than any ship. That you're complaining about longer training time is a bit weak IMO. I'm not complaining about long training times for a large barge, I complain that the large barge is *the only barge* that's worth using it. And that is weak IMO. I think the mining capabilities of a large barge are good and the time you need to train for one is good too. I just said, that I wouldn't train so long for one. But as mentioned the other two barges are useless (IMHO) because of their low performance and therefore I would improve all three of them. The L barge should keep being useful, shouldn't it? Originally by: Vashy Stampede Mining barges aren't supposed to be easily accessable to anyone That's why I suggested to extend training time by round about one weak by increasing the pre-required skill Mining lvl4 up to lvl5. Originally by: Vashy Stampede who can't afford a BS like an apoc or mega (and why should they be?) I don't agree to that. If CCP wouldn't have intended that they are easily affordable in meaning of ISK, then the smallest barge wouldn't cost round about 1m (which isn't really much) and the largest would be more expensive than ~30m, which isn't really much either. Originally by: Vashy Stampede Compare them to other stuff like frigs and cruisers and you'll find out they work out relatively fine. But I don't do compare them to frigs and cruisers, because their training time is compareable to battleships. If anyone choose to be a miner but does want to skill other things more or less effectively too, why should he go for a barge instead of an Apo which does the same work more efficient and is faster to skill? That's just dull. Originally by: Vashy Stampede If you said something along the lines of "totally useless as far as defence go", then you'd have a small point, but even that doesn't hold much ground, as it's a mining ship and not a battleship :) And that's exactly why I didn't mentioned defence, armor or anything like that. I can't see anything wrong when mining vessels need protection by combat ships. Just like you pointed out: barges are mining ships and not battle-ships. Just like the Apo is a *battleship* and no mining vessels. TBH, I don't think you got my point. There is no point in using the small or medium barge for mining when the Apo is still much better. Slightly increasing their mining performance is easier to tweak than to decrease the Apo's mining capabilities IMO. But as long as ships like the Apo or Mega are still better in terms of mining then ships which has been dedicated to mining, there is no reason to use one.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.01 17:59:00 - [12] Urge to grief... rising...
Paw Sandberg	Posted - 2005.03.01 18:13:00 - [13] Not another one of these threads let me explain it AGAIN A S Barge = A Frigate (and mines far better than any other Frigate) A M Barge = A Cruiser (samme as above) and guess what A L Barge = A BS and mines far better than any BS ingame you seam to be under the impresion that the Small Frigate Mining ship should mine better than a Apoc BS you dont see anything wrong with that ?? as it stands now I can fill a Can in 27 minutes with my L barge that takes 45 minutes with the samme skills in a Apoc explain how my L Barge is not as good as a Apoc at MINING yeah they do need a workover shield and Armor wise (because they have trouble surviving .5 systems solo) and I think they screwed up on the Stripminer II's (output is only 360 every 3 minuts vs stripminer I's output of 560 every 3 minutes) but again thats besides the point Thank You Paw Sandberg for all your BPC needs see http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
Channon	Posted - 2005.03.01 18:21:00 - [14] i have 4 toons able to use large barges and altho the smaller versions may not compeate as well for me im hapy with the large barge its cycle time is longer wich is better for me they can mine ice unlike non barge ships and they can out mine an apoc my cargo hold doesnt fill up in under a min and buying 4 large barges was hella lot cheaper then buying 4 apocs yes it is slow and weak i do wish minning had been devolped around the barge concepte when the game went live, dedicated ships with dedicated turrents large holds longer cycle times now if they could just put in some frozen veld so that i could have a never ending nonpoping 10 mininute cycle for normal ores becouse i think ice minning is how minning should be the pain in my wrist happens less now then it did with a minner2
Mandos2k	Posted - 2005.03.01 18:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Frozen Light So, the maximum mining skills for a battleship are Mining V and Astrogeology V. That adds 20% yield to miner II's. On the other hand, barges get an extra 15% yield bonus (Mining Barge lvl V) to strip miner, outclassing an apoc or mega. Yeah, right. But that's what I told before. A L barge outclasses a Mega or Apo. What I tried to point at is, that mining in a small or medium barge is not as smart as mining in a Mega or Apo. With barges you would mine less with same skills. It's a balance thing between time (skilling) and reward (ore). Originally by: Frozen Light I've been quite comfortable in my medium barge, thanks to the 3 minute cycle of the lasers. Ever tried to go for a smoke and take a bio break or heck, even go to the fridge in 2 minutes? Unless your fast, you'll miss a whole cycle with Miner II's. Nice to hear that you like your medium barge, but would you have used a Mega (etc.) you had got more ore within the same time. When a long cycling time is more valuable to you, ok. But I think a ship dedicated for mining should be good in that field and even better than its competition which is meant for combat. Originally by: Frozen Light Barges weren't meant for casual players but for those who are specializing in the industry field. Even with my suggestions mining barges would need a lot of time to skill for. They would even need longer because I think mining on lvl5 should be essesntial for a ship that has been build for mining. I just suggested to lower the requirements for small barges, because then there would be a reason to use one. There is currently no reason to use a small barge when u can fly a medium barge only about one day later. Originally by: Frozen Light And oh, now with the POS out, can you mine Ice in your mega? Guess not =) No I can't mine Ice in my Mega. That's clearly a plus for barges. But no-one buys Ice so why should you want to mine Ice unless you got your own POS? Originally by: Frozen Light /me goes back to work wondering why everybody whines when new content comes out and whines when new content hasn't come out. Also, he prepares for a flame war with flame-retartand clothing rotfl
Mandos2k	Posted - 2005.03.01 18:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Paw Sandberg let me explain it AGAIN A S Barge = A Frigate (and mines far better than any other Frigate) A M Barge = A Cruiser (samme as above) and guess what A L Barge = A BS and mines far better than any BS ingame Don't think you can compare those shipclasses that way. How long do you need to train for a frig? Half a day? How long do you need to train for a cruiser? Three days? Maybe a weak? How long do you need for a BS? Two weeks? A month? Definitely not longer. Now Compare that to mining barges like you did above. Do you see anything wrong here? Originally by: Paw Sandberg you seam to be under the impresion that the Small Frigate Mining ship should mine better than a Apoc BS Ok, might have been a fault to introduce my topic that way. I don't think that even a small barge should outmine an Apo, but I do think that a medium barge should indeed. It takes longer to skill, is specialized for mining and mines less. And I see a lot of things wrong with that.
Mandos2k	Posted - 2005.03.01 18:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Helplessandlost Heh... Gotta take it in perspective - I've trained large barge on both my accounts. Now the only problem is finding roids that don't pop every couple minutes. I've never said L barges aren't efficient. I said S and M barges are crap. But when you increase the mining performance (slightly, I suggested only one (1) high slot more per ship) of those two, you gotta need to push the large one too. Otherwise it would become obsolete.
Paw Sandberg	Posted - 2005.03.01 18:54:00 - [18] sere now we are getting somewhere so what you asre complaining about is not the barge but the training time it takes to train the L Barge thats not what you said to begin with though :-) anyway yeah I will give you enough leash to admit that the training time is steep for a Barge and that it would not have hurt that the med Barge could mine more than a apoc (with strip miner II (and crystals)) however my compareson of the Frigates and the S barge stands like the one of the cruiser this is because thats what CCP are comparing them to (somewhere in a previus dev blog) anyway I wont argue that the training time is a little steep on the barges (due mostly IMO to the prereq's) and that a small decrease or a increase on the strip miner II's (Modulated strip miners) would be a good thing Thank You Paw Sandberg for all your BPC needs see http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
Helplessandlost	Posted - 2005.03.01 19:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Mandos2k No I can't mine Ice in my Mega. That's clearly a plus for barges. But no-one buys Ice so why should you want to mine Ice unless you got your own POS? Sorry but lots of people buy ICE and we have had Ice contracts with other corps that were quite profitable. Check us out
Pentara	Posted - 2005.03.01 19:15:00 - [20] I only have one thing to say. Your entire argument is flawed. You are comparing a mining barge using TECH 1 strip miners to an apocalypse using TECH 2 mining beams. Now, you want to see truly how great the barge is, do the same math you did but put miner 1s into the apoc. That's how much better the mining barge is than the apoc. Then, do the same math again using Miner 2s for Apoc and Strip Miner 2s for Mining Barge, again, THATS how much better the mining barge is than an apoc.
Ray Laria	Posted - 2005.03.01 19:25:00 - [21] i've trained to lg barge and its amazin to hav somthin that can fill a can in less then 30 minutes it makes minin less borin cos its now a way to make lots of money from minin. so in conclusion LARGE BARGES RULE AND KICK MININ MS ASS
Mandos2k	Posted - 2005.03.01 19:38:00 - [22] Edited by: Mandos2k on 01/03/2005 20:19:26 Edited by: Mandos2k on 01/03/2005 20:11:46 OK guys, I think you get a lot of things wrong here. Maybe it's my bad english, maybe I'm just wrong (but I don't think so, lol). - I don't complain about the skill time for barges. None of them (in fact, I suggested to extend skill time) - I don't think that a large barge doesn't mine enough. It does mine enough. I try to shape, that a mining barge is a specialized ship. Build and dedicated for mining - well, they are good for mining. But: To train for a BS doesn't take so much time like training for a small barge. Only this fact should IMO be enough to expect a small barge being better than a BS, but I never demanded that. It would be ok to me, when a small barge is less effective than a BS. Ok, a small barge is better than a Raven or a Scorp, maybe better than a Typhoon or Tempest. Haven't calculated that. But ALL battleships are meant for combat. Not mining. I've seen a lot of ppl complaining about the fact, that ships which are meant for combat are used for mining. Barges COULD have changed that. Barges could have been the #1 ship for mining. But they aren't. Why aren't they? Because barges aren't good enough compared to their combat competitions. The only barge that is worth to be prefered towards a BS is the large barge. But the large barge takes way too long to train for that most people will ever use one. to be clear: that's ok for me! I DON'T see any problem with that! But what bites me is, that small and medium barges aren't good enough to be prefered towards a BS (remember: there are ppl complaining about BS beeing "hijacked" as miners) though they take longer to skill for. to be clear: I DON'T see any problem in long-time-skilling for mining barges! It's the combination of use, actual role within EVE (I always see RP aspect in EVE too) and your exertions to get a decent mining ship. Except large barges, no other barge is really usefull, as there are alternatives which are quicker to train, more efficient and got better defence capabilities. Small and medium barges can't compete in these fields. So they are crap, when they keep being like they are now. to be clear: I DON'T mean small and medium barges su in comparsion to large barges! They su compared to Battleships! @Paw Sandberg: As I stated above, I've had a quite long brake from EVE so I've no idea what CCP told you about barges, but comparing a small barge, which takes longer to train for than a BS, to a frigate is completely nonsense IMO. --- I hope you guys don't get me wrong this time, unless I'm really wrong and it's right that a small barges isn't really better than a thorax (only a few days skilling) but needs longer to train for than a BS. remember: long-time-skilling isn't the problem here. thx
Gafton	Posted - 2005.03.01 19:42:00 - [23] why dont you use strip miner 2s on your barge with specific ore crystals in them? Then compare that to the apoc with miner 2s? Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.01 19:46:00 - [24] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 01/03/2005 19:51:46 You know what? I've had a revelation - the guy's been right all along. It is unfair that battleships are still so good compared to mining barges. The solution: Now that we have specialized mining ships, remove the miner I and miner II from the game - this will prevent battleships from competing with mining barges, which are clearly the intended alpha-and-omega of rock pecking. I am certain the carebears of Eve will agree that being restricted to basic miners on their battleships (by definition meant to do battle, not with asteroids I mean) will make mining barges vastly preferrable, thus improving their gaming experience. As a pleasant bonus, my proposed change will also eliminate that most stomach-turning of sights, an Apocalypse - martial pride of the Amarr navy - studded with Miner IIs and reduced to shamefully nibbling away at Pyroxeres in 0.7 sec space.
flummox	Posted - 2005.03.01 19:49:00 - [25] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Urge to grief... rising... lol... i love it !! there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
Mandos2k	Posted - 2005.03.01 19:55:00 - [26] Originally by: Pentara I only have one thing to say. Your entire argument is flawed. You are comparing a mining barge using TECH 1 strip miners to an apocalypse using TECH 2 mining beams. 1. I compared a medium barge to a Mega in my "math". That's even worse because a Apo is better than a Mega. 2. I've never seen any Strip Miner II in EVE. The only thing I've seen is a "modulated strip miner II" in the Item Database and it mines less than a Strip Miner I. Though I think the modulated one is more like a DCM. So using what's available (as far as I know) my comparsion is valid and I can't see anything flawed here.
Mandos2k	Posted - 2005.03.01 20:05:00 - [27] Originally by: Gafton why dont you use strip miner 2s on your barge with specific ore crystals in them? Then compare that to the apoc with miner 2s? Because everything I tried to state above would still consist. If I just wanted to mine more, I would use Apo or, what I don't intend, a large barge. It's still the fact that - from point of view of a n00b - he would get faster an Apo than a medium barge. Even if he had both ships he would still be more efficient using the Apo instead of the medium barge with same skills. Why should he use it at all? Or vise versa: do you guys have any argument why anyone should use a small or medium barge when he just wants to build stuff? Sry, but I still have none. Enlighten me plz.
Nybbas	Posted - 2005.03.01 20:23:00 - [28] I AGREE and we should also nerf the raven!.... but yeah what istvaan said, maybe not get rid of them altogether, but do not allow them on battleships.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.03.01 20:29:00 - [29] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 01/03/2005 19:51:46 You know what? I've had a revelation - the guy's been right all along. It is unfair that battleships are still so good compared to mining barges. Exactly. The difference atm means that the Apoc (and probably other BSes to a lesser extent) remain perfectly viable mining ships and the large mining barge is just a bit better. That's exactly the problem. I am not a 24/7 miner but I have mined a helluva lot and I see it as an important revenue stream. But as it stands it's just not worth the cost and time. This means that all those legions of Apocs (mine amongst them) sucking up ore in Empire will remain. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Mandos2k	Posted - 2005.03.01 21:00:00 - [30] I think Istvaan actually wanted to say "stfu mandos". But it is good to see that I'm not alone, thx Andrue.

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