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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
SexxxSlave
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Posted - 2011.08.29 19:54:00 -
[1]
Almost 3 months have passed since the infamous monoclegate, CCP. And just about the same amount of time has elapsed since the :emergency: summit. A summit of which you said we would have meeting minutes for.
2.5 months for some meeting minutes is awful long, especially considering that you said these minutes were of utmost importance and we would have them "soon". Get your act together, and cobble these minutes together already. Stop passing them back and forth to the CSM for "approval" and "sugar coating"... |
Kharvor
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Posted - 2011.08.29 20:18:00 -
[2]
Much like the Vice President's Energy Commission meeting of 2001, the Emergency Summit of the CSM has been classified for reasons of irrational security.
Btw... SexxxSlave? BEST EVE NAME EVER. I'll give you 20 mil for your posting alt. |
Lightnin
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Posted - 2011.08.29 21:52:00 -
[3]
Almost 3 months have passed since the infamous monoclegate, CCP. And just about the same amount of time has elapsed since the :emergency: summit. A summit of which you said we would have meeting minutes for.
yes i agree, where is this information at? why would CCP hold out on such a important issue many piolts have left for this very topic that was so important 3 months ago seems like EVE has not been the same after that week of bitter discussion
myself i have been looking and waiting for some answers to what happen and how it will affect me in the future
time to tells us why, what, and where is the answer
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Ranger 1
Amarr Ranger Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.29 21:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kharvor Much like the Vice President's Energy Commission meeting of 2001, the Emergency Summit of the CSM has been classified for reasons of irrational security.
Btw... SexxxSlave? BEST EVE NAME EVER. I'll give you 20 mil for your posting alt.
Nice yes man alt.
The results of that meeting were already posted.
Actual minutes of the meeting would be covered under the NDA as already stated.
Perhaps you could quote the post that promised us full meeting minutes. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
That Handsome Frog
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Posted - 2011.08.29 22:04:00 -
[5]
Oh no! You guys are googling your informationz. also why does the letter Q look weird after look it it for a couple mins? Also, the letter Q has a mustache when I type it into the message reply box. It has a freakin mustache... ftw
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SexxxSlave
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Posted - 2011.08.30 04:51:00 -
[6]
Edited by: SexxxSlave on 30/08/2011 04:51:06
Originally by: Ranger 1
Actual minutes of the meeting would be covered under the NDA as already stated.
first of all, minutes arent NDA. The TRANSCRIPT is.
Originally by: Ranger 1 Perhaps you could quote the post that promised us full meeting minutes.
THIS THREAD would indicate to me (because Trebor isnt in the art of lying to people about stuff the CSM does) that there are meeting minutes being prepared to be released. Also, its common practice for CCP and CSM to release meeting minutes, as is evidenced HERE
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 04:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: SexxxSlave Almost 3 months have passed since the infamous monoclegate, CCP. And just about the same amount of time has elapsed since the :emergency: summit. A summit of which you said we would have meeting minutes for.
2.5 months for some meeting minutes is awful long, especially considering that you said these minutes were of utmost importance and we would have them "soon". Get your act together, and cobble these minutes together already. Stop passing them back and forth to the CSM for "approval" and "sugar coating"...
Honestly, I doubt the minutes exist. Theyre likely scripting them as we type, as they never thought people would actually WANT them. Likely they thought stringing the words "Emergency" and "CMS" together would pacify the masses, which it seems to have done. Funny thing given people actually think that is an accomplishment -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
AnzacPaul
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.08.30 06:55:00 -
[8]
White tree posted a few days ago saying CCP and CSM couldn't agree on the tone of the minutes.
Frankly, it's pretty damn disgusting that three months later, with the instant sending of email, and skype contact, that these are not out. It says alot about CCP and their promise to improve communication.
But do any of us expect any less at this stage? ______
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Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.08.30 07:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ciar Meara on 30/08/2011 07:47:50
Hey ease up there!
Give CCP a break they have been on vacation!
And they have been iterating on the failed incarna launch to bring us all the CQ's.
And they have been posting on the ask a dev thread constantly to answer all those questions.
And they have been doing stuff talking about important stuff like 0.0 AGAIN.
And they have been talking about FW like they promised!
EDIT: Nevermind - Hilmar getur ekki tala= vi= ¦ig n·na, hann er a= fara f japanska tfskuverslun.
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SexxxSlave
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Posted - 2011.08.30 09:06:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Give CCP a break they have been on vacation!
the sad part is, CCP will actually try and say the CSM meeting minutes were delayed because of vacation. Shame on them, really, because when you have something as pivotal as this going on with your game, you try and push something to the public to further the "we want to improve communication and transparency" impression.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.30 09:18:00 -
[11]
I don't think they get what meeting minutes are about, so just for clarification. You write down what was said. Period. Its not something you fluff up that requires proper editing to capture some kind of "tone". Its just information. The meeting happened, people said stuff... you write the **** down. If you edit it, its not meeting minutes, its fluff and we already got more of that than I care to read. If I have to read another ******ed Devblog about 1000 jeans I'm going to shoot myself in the face.
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CCP Xhagen
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Posted - 2011.08.30 11:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Thornat I don't think they get what meeting minutes are about, so just for clarification. You write down what was said. Period. Its not something you fluff up that requires proper editing to capture some kind of "tone". Its just information. The meeting happened, people said stuff... you write the **** down. If you edit it, its not meeting minutes, its fluff and we already got more of that than I care to read. If I have to read another ******ed Devblog about 1000 jeans I'm going to shoot myself in the face.
See here for another thread about the matter.
Originally by: Thornat You write down what was said.
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method. Thus, we summarize the discussions when we write up the minutes, we mostly say 'CSM' and 'CCP' instead of saying specific names, a response follows a question or a comment, group the relevant discussion into one section in stead of having it going all over the place (like happens when talking to someone), etc. And that is where things start to get difficult, specially when the subject is of the nature like the June topic was.
We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics. ____________________________ CSM Project Manager
EVE Online CCP Games |
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Harlot Hohannson
Eye on Wang Poo
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Posted - 2011.08.30 11:54:00 -
[13]
i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
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CCP Xhagen
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Posted - 2011.08.30 11:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
Fair enough. ____________________________ CSM Project Manager
EVE Online CCP Games |
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Jen Serine
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Posted - 2011.08.30 11:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
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ghost st
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Posted - 2011.08.30 11:59:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Thornat I don't think they get what meeting minutes are about, so just for clarification. You write down what was said. Period. Its not something you fluff up that requires proper editing to capture some kind of "tone". Its just information. The meeting happened, people said stuff... you write the **** down. If you edit it, its not meeting minutes, its fluff and we already got more of that than I care to read. If I have to read another ******ed Devblog about 1000 jeans I'm going to shoot myself in the face.
See here for another thread about the matter.
Originally by: Thornat You write down what was said.
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method. Thus, we summarize the discussions when we write up the minutes, we mostly say 'CSM' and 'CCP' instead of saying specific names, a response follows a question or a comment, group the relevant discussion into one section in stead of having it going all over the place (like happens when talking to someone), etc. And that is where things start to get difficult, specially when the subject is of the nature like the June topic was.
We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics.
Just videotape the damn meeting and have some bored **** go over over it with a bleeper or something.
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Jack Paladin
StarFleet Enterprises BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:07:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Jack Paladin on 30/08/2011 12:06:52
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
Best post yet.
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Efraya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
Signature removed for not being EVE related. Zymurgist |
Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:20:00 -
[19]
"I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get."
i don't agree at all. i would enjoy reading a direct transcription that puts a name to every comment.
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Stitcher
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:20:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Stitcher on 30/08/2011 12:20:01
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
Fair enough.
See, and right here is proof that the devs have way better PR skills than I ever would, beause my response to that would have been to call Harlot out on how incredibly b*tchy that statement was. Guess if I worked for CCP they'd have to forbid me from going anywhere near the forums. -
- Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
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Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:26:00 -
[21]
^ its not *****y at all, given that Hilmar said its CCP policy to ignore everything paying customers say, and only respond to what they do
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Perramas
Caldari Pan Caldarian Ventures
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
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Harlot Hohannson
Eye on Wang Poo
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:31:00 -
[23]
its not *****iness. ccp consistently fail to deliver on their promises and that more than sums up my feelings as to their reliability.
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
Fair enough.
Well said HH.
Xhagen, please do give your PR guys a memo saying they need to hurry up spinning those meeting minutes (besides, if it spins any faster the paper might burst into flames from the friction).
Ye'llo? |
Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:46:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ciar Meara on 30/08/2011 12:49:48
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
See here for another thread about the matter.
Having visited that thread this is what you say there
-I transcribed the initial text and sent to the CSM for commenting -Having gotten it back relatively quickly I sent it to the CCP people that need to read and comment -Sent the re-reviewed back to the CSM -The CSM objected to many of the reviews done -Edits have been going back and forth for a while now
I have had the same job you do, having to change minutes for a boss who doesn't want anything but his own opinion/interpretation in the drafts. Just like you I had the misfortune to have a group of people disagree with his interpretation strongly. I was working between the EU Commission and a Governement Agency though.
If you where there and made the notes and if you wrote down what was said and if the CSM agreed to them quickly it is clear that the problem isn't with your interpretation. You need to tell the guys who want to change the text so badly that they can't change the facts. Tone is bull****. That just managerspeak for "damn this makes us look like idiots"
Get them of their high horse. It is about communication, not ego.
- Hilmar getur ekki tala= vi= ¦ig n·na, hann er a= fara f japanska tfskuverslun.
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Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:08:00 -
[26]
Are there any regulations concerning how long any one stakeholder involved in the minutes can keep it in a drawer?
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.
The other day, a CSM member (I believe White Tree) mentioned that CCP and the CSM couldn't agree on the "tone" of the minutes.
Do you really expect us to believe that the disagreement is based on the vocal inflections that people made?
.. You know, on second thought, don't answer that.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:20:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 13:24:59
Originally by: Jason1138 ^ its not *****y at all, given that Hilmar said its CCP policy to ignore everything paying customers say, and only respond to what they do
Quote:
Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say. We went out with a decisive strategy... and we will stay the course and not flip flop around or knee jerk react to the predictable.... Stay the course, we have done this many times before.
That part?
Its funny how much theyre screwing up now by pretending they think the CSM has power. In the past theyve released things into the game that they never even showed to the CSM members (who squawked like offended chickens the whole time), and when the CSM says something about something theyre shpown that CCP doesnt like, CCP just slaps them with a NDA it just shows what CCP really thinks of them but NOW theyre soooooooo important, theyre holding up the minutes being released. Something stinks about this situation here -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
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CCP Xhagen
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:49:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: CCP Xhagen I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.
The other day, a CSM member (I believe White Tree) mentioned that CCP and the CSM couldn't agree on the "tone" of the minutes.
Do you really expect us to believe that the disagreement is based on the vocal inflections that people made?
.. You know, on second thought, don't answer that.
Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?
Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed. ____________________________ CSM Project Manager
EVE Online CCP Games |
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Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:56:00 -
[30]
semantics - Hilmar getur ekki tala= vi= ¦ig n·na, hann er a= fara f japanska tfskuverslun.
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Gaylord Demian
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:57:00 -
[31]
I think this goes to show how little CCP care about the majority of their clientbase past the initial 3 month stage.
It's awesome that CCP fail at running their own little pet CSM project, least you guys could do is pretend you give a flying ****.
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Aus Man Industries
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:14:00 -
[32]
by the time they come out will they be as relevant? Oh hey look CSM was strong aposed to gold ammo...to bad there has been a devblog on that, or how about in the minutes they talk about the upcoming patch..that we already have the notes for?
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BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:36:00 -
[33]
As I said in this thread
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's say CCP calls another emergency meeting of the CSM, or even just a regularly scheduled one.
When they arrive at the confrence room to start the meeting with CEO Hilmar and some Devs, they find out that 'White Tree' missed his flight and won't be making it until the next day. CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' bends down, removes his left shoe as well as his sock and places the sock over his hand. He says to everyone gathered "White Tree is right here and we can begin the meeting."
Now here's the best part....
After the meeting is concluded for the day, 'The Mitani' heads to the bar. He decides that he's going to get '**** faced again in Iceland' and drinks himself into a stupor. The next day, eveyone notices that CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' is missing and the other CSM members don't want to start without him. Hilmar calmly bends down and removes his left shoe and sock. He places the sock over his hand and says "The Mitani is here and we can start the meeting...See, he's a puppet too." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sooner everyone accepts this fact, the quicker we can move on.
You don't 'edit' minutes to a meeting. It defeats the entire purpose and MUCH more importantly, puts into serious question the credibility of what was really said.
If I go down to city hall and request the minutes of a public city counsel meeting, I can assure you that not one thing was 'edited'
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:38:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 14:40:48
Originally by: Aus Man Industries by the time they come out will they be as relevant? Oh hey look CSM was strong aposed to gold ammo...to bad there has been a devblog on that, or how about in the minutes they talk about the upcoming patch..that we already have the notes for?
If the CSM were strongly opposed to anything expect it to get NDAed
I agree Buck CSM is a sad joke. a PR scam they cam throw up when they need it and ignore it when they dont.
As a silly aside: anyone remember when the CSM was formed and what impossible task it was developed for? -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
Dusty Warrior
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Posted - 2011.08.30 15:00:00 -
[35]
Seriously... not that I really care about what was discussed at the "Emergency CSM/CCP party meeting".
I just wanted to offer up my son's services. He would be more than happy to type up the comic minutes for you all. I mean... I'm sure he'd be able to get it done before winter expansion. Might be tough, but I'm certain with his 4th grade education and a little spare time he'd have it done for you.
Afterall... why not continue to string your customers along. Not like you've not had practice stringing us along. What they do, not what they say attitude must be working well for you guys thus far.
Anywhoo... guess I'll wait for the next BIG EXPANSION. I have a feeling actions will trump any type of spin you and your fanbois might muster after this winter.
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Lady Zarrina
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Posted - 2011.08.30 15:12:00 -
[36]
3 months to get the tone of a meeting? This is disgraceful.
They were just hoping and praying that it was over. They realized how close they came to really screwing up. Someone higher up, who needed a new boat, read about this F2P concept and said hey we can do this.... But lets make them pay also. They got a developer onside (probably promised him a smaller boat) and away they went, Incarna was released. Now this enlightened individual read about facebook. Hey that's a damn fine idea, lets do that, they are going to IPO that company for 100 trazillion bucks. So once again, away they go. The developer did need a pool after all. I know, he's in Iceland, but that don't matter. You know the next release will have the word "cloud" in there somewhere. These guys are just too smart.
They have forget what this game is about, THEY HAVE LOST TOUCH. And I bet there is nothing they can do about it, except make it look like Team BFF will do something in the next 5 years that might directly relate to internet spaceships.
I am willing to bet they have gutted their Eve development teams in hopes of getting their other games out. They seem deathly afraid to touch any actual game code, and this is about the only reason I can think of that makes sense.
And yes I know many will say Incarna rocks, and walking in stations will save eve and allow it to outpace WoW and every other MMO out there. Sorry to say.... but you are wrong. Plain wrong. All CCP cares about with Incarna is they can now hire One art student with a little computer skills for minimum wage and sell crap to idiots.
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Borun Tal
Minmatar Space Pods Inc
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Posted - 2011.08.30 15:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.
How about you just release the transcription and let the community read the facts, rather than massage and sculpt (ie, alter) them to fit CCP agenda?
This is just ludicrous. I'd like to suggest to the community and potential upcoming CSM candidates that all meetings between CCP and CSM are recorded (or even broadcast) on video by CSM members *OFF* CCP premises... Any bets on whether that would fly?
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 15:27:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Lady Zarrina Someone higher up, who needed a new boat, read about this F2P concept and said hey we can do this.... But lets make them pay also.
Who wants to bet this guy plays Star Trek Online and went "if they can do it why cant we?????"
And missed the part where that game is crap -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
Jul1a
Tycho Magnetic Anomaly
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Posted - 2011.08.30 16:03:00 -
[39]
If it took me a 1/4 of a year to write out the minutes of a critical] public relations meeting where I work I would be fired.
And I work in the public sector where getting fired is almost impossible (unless the Tory government are in power).
When noone cares anymore.. they will be released quietly.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 16:09:00 -
[40]
CCP: "But dear players, the CSM minutes have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
US: "Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
CCP: "But the minutes were on display ..."
US: "On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
CCP: "That's the display department."
US: "With a flashlight."
CCP: "Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
US: "So had the stairs."
CCP: "But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
US: "Yes I did. They were on 'display' in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."
-------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
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Ranger 1
Amarr Ranger Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.30 16:28:00 -
[41]
Originally by: BuckStrider As I said in this thread
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's say CCP calls another emergency meeting of the CSM, or even just a regularly scheduled one.
When they arrive at the confrence room to start the meeting with CEO Hilmar and some Devs, they find out that 'White Tree' missed his flight and won't be making it until the next day. CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' bends down, removes his left shoe as well as his sock and places the sock over his hand. He says to everyone gathered "White Tree is right here and we can begin the meeting."
Now here's the best part....
After the meeting is concluded for the day, 'The Mitani' heads to the bar. He decides that he's going to get '**** faced again in Iceland' and drinks himself into a stupor. The next day, eveyone notices that CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' is missing and the other CSM members don't want to start without him. Hilmar calmly bends down and removes his left shoe and sock. He places the sock over his hand and says "The Mitani is here and we can start the meeting...See, he's a puppet too." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sooner everyone accepts this fact, the quicker we can move on.
You don't 'edit' minutes to a meeting. It defeats the entire purpose and MUCH more importantly, puts into serious question the credibility of what was really said.
If I go down to city hall and request the minutes of a public city counsel meeting, I can assure you that not one thing was 'edited'
The minutes of a meeting are a summary of what tranpires in a meeting, of course they are edited. What you are describing is a transcript.
@OP: Quote: first of all, minutes arent NDA. The TRANSCRIPT is.
The minutes are directly affected by the NDA. We will receive an edited version of the minutes that removes any NDA material, while CCP will keep on file the full version for reference.
And to those asking why the meeting can't simply be video recorded or broadcast, the reason is self evident. These meetings often discuss the future direction of the game and the company itself and as such cannot be made available for public consumption. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Enuen Ravenseye
Malevolence. Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2011.08.30 16:37:00 -
[42]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?
Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.
You're releasing meeting minutes, not a damned novella.
You don't need to include "tone" - the words will do just fine, thanks. I'm pretty sure we can determine the "tone" without your assistance (i.e., CSM = ****ed, CCP = unremorseful).
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Tarkin Hamir
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Posted - 2011.08.30 16:42:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics.
In any other organisation taking three months to issue notes of even the most controversial meeting would not be regarded as being 'pretty good' - it would, in fact, be regarded as being incompetent or deliberately trying to hide something.
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Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.30 16:44:00 -
[44]
Originally by: BuckStrider If I go down to city hall and request the minutes of a public city counsel meeting, I can assure you that not one thing was 'edited'
QFT |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 16:45:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Tarkin Hamir deliberately trying to hide something.
is the likely part... well i could be incompetant too though -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
Resivan
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Posted - 2011.08.30 16:59:00 -
[46]
When you have to hold an emergency meeting because you've messed up you messaging so badly that you're getting mass subscription cancellations and in-game riots that are making the industry press.... When the player representatives at that meeting are openly posting in channels outside your control that they found the results of the meeting at best minimally acceptable.... When they're posting that as far as they're concerned there was an acceptable draft over a month ago....
It's time to bite the bullet and publish the CSM's latest draft. You aren't going to be able to spin things to make you look good, and stalling only makes you look worse.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 17:09:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Resivan When the player representatives at that meeting are openly posting in channels outside your control
link that -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
SexxxSlave
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Posted - 2011.08.30 17:19:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Resivan When the player representatives at that meeting are openly posting in channels outside your control
link that
twitter, failheap, and facebook bro...theyre all posting on non-eve/non-CCP regulated sites about how the meeting minutes have been a point of contention for AT LEAST a month now. |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 17:21:00 -
[49]
Originally by: SexxxSlave
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Resivan When the player representatives at that meeting are openly posting in channels outside your control
link that
twitter, failheap, and facebook bro...theyre all posting on non-eve/non-CCP regulated sites about how the meeting minutes have been a point of contention for AT LEAST a month now.
k, link that bro Rather not go sifting through all of Twitter/failheap etc to find it -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
Resivan
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Posted - 2011.08.30 17:34:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
k, link that bro Rather not go sifting through all of Twitter/failheap etc to find it
If you're too lazy to do your own research, I'm too lazy to do it for you. But I'll give you one link, to a post from Two Step today.
http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?3534-Status-of-emergency-summit-minutes&p=196348&viewfull=1#post196348
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 17:46:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 17:47:10 Neat quote:
Quote: Gonna address these two together. Right now, the issue that *all* of the CSM have with the minutes is that CCP made edits that we don't feel reflect what actually happened at the summit. I'm not sure who you would blame for that, basically it is both of us holding up the minutes release at this point.
so its NOT just CCP -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
Thomas Turnpoint
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:34:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Lady Zarrina 3 months to get the tone of a meeting? This is disgraceful.
They were just hoping and praying that it was over. They realized how close they came to really screwing up. Someone higher up, who needed a new boat, read about this F2P concept and said hey we can do this.... But lets make them pay also. They got a developer onside (probably promised him a smaller boat) and away they went, Incarna was released. Now this enlightened individual read about facebook. Hey that's a damn fine idea, lets do that, they are going to IPO that company for 100 trazillion bucks. So once again, away they go. The developer did need a pool after all. I know, he's in Iceland, but that don't matter. You know the next release will have the word "cloud" in there somewhere. These guys are just too smart.
They have forget what this game is about, THEY HAVE LOST TOUCH. And I bet there is nothing they can do about it, except make it look like Team BFF will do something in the next 5 years that might directly relate to internet spaceships.
I am willing to bet they have gutted their Eve development teams in hopes of getting their other games out. They seem deathly afraid to touch any actual game code, and this is about the only reason I can think of that makes sense.
This. QFT. etc. __________________________ Obi-wan only felt that way about Mos Eisley because he'd never played Eve Online |
Steph Wing
Gallente Transfixion Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:38:00 -
[53]
Did you know that if you take the second space out of "democracy in action" you get "democracy inaction"?
That seemed relevant to the discussion somehow.
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:38:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Marchocias on 30/08/2011 18:41:26 You know, if CCP just videoed the whole thing, and redacted anything NDA related, we could all judge the "tone" for ourselves, and this wouldn't really be an issue.
We would be much more capable of accurately judging both CCP and the CSM, and such naked transparency would go a hell of a long way towards restoring customer faith.
...unless CCP reckon that their current policies are certain to make you everyone look like douchebags, in which case such transparency might not help, but a sensible person might then question those policies. ---- I like the base. |
Ana Vyr
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:44:00 -
[55]
3 months to redact a document? I'm sorry but that is simply ridiculous, complex and inflammatory topics or not.
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Mara Villoso
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:47:00 -
[56]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?
Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.
As a professional writer/editor, I can sympathize with the importance of writing well and accurately. However, the obvious solution is to simply print what was said or recorded. Redaction is sufficient for the CIA and others to prevent disclosure of sensitive information. I can't imagine why it wouldn't suffice for you. If you're editing something so stringently that "tone" is being modified, it implies you aren't actually taking minutes, you're writing a story about what happened. Minutes are simply a record of events. Tone, mood, intonation, descriptions of emotion, etc. are irrelevant.
While we're on the topic of written materials that were promised 3 months ago, when will the Devs Answer thread be completed/revisited?
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:50:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 14:40:48
Originally by: Aus Man Industries by the time they come out will they be as relevant? Oh hey look CSM was strong aposed to gold ammo...to bad there has been a devblog on that, or how about in the minutes they talk about the upcoming patch..that we already have the notes for?
If the CSM were strongly opposed to anything expect it to get NDAed
I agree Buck CSM is a sad joke. a PR scam they cam throw up when they need it and ignore it when they dont.
As a silly aside: anyone remember when the CSM was formed and what impossible task it was developed for?
I don't remember what it was developed for but I certainly know what it was developed as a result of.
CCP, I can stick up for your game because it is still fun to play to this day. However, your actions, or lack thereof, really make it a difficult chore. You guys need to quit saying you are going to do **** that you cant do in the time-frame you give.
2.5 months for some minutes is bull**** in anybodies book.
When you said you wanted to have better communications you mgiht as well have said "We don't plan on gold ammo and if you want to know anything deeper than that GTFO."
Because that's exactly what you gave us. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:51:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kharvor Much like the Vice President's Energy Commission meeting of 2001
It is best that the details of the presentation given to the Commission by the Miskatonic University on the power generation potential of the Gate Of Azathoth remain forever obscured...
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:51:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
so its NOT just CCP
CSM is holding it up BECAUSE CCP is trying to finagle language into the minutes that would make it look like CCP is the knight in shining armor. Trust us here, the CSM wouldnt be disapproving these meeting minutes if they were a 100% true reflection of what happened. CCP is trying to punch up the language to make it look like theyre the helpless victim in this whole ordeal.
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Steph Wing
Gallente Transfixion Reverberation Project
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:57:00 -
[60]
...and another ****storm was born.
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Rath Kelbore
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2011.08.30 19:07:00 -
[61]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: CCP Xhagen I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.
The other day, a CSM member (I believe White Tree) mentioned that CCP and the CSM couldn't agree on the "tone" of the minutes.
Do you really expect us to believe that the disagreement is based on the vocal inflections that people made?
.. You know, on second thought, don't answer that.
Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?
Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.
You could probably say CCP/CSM angrily stated that they disagree.
Is that really what's holding this whole thing up? Seems pretty trivial to me. This could be as much CSM's fault as CCP's for all I know, but come on. It really can't be that hard can it?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.08.30 19:25:00 -
[62]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: CCP Xhagen I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.
The other day, a CSM member (I believe White Tree) mentioned that CCP and the CSM couldn't agree on the "tone" of the minutes.
Do you really expect us to believe that the disagreement is based on the vocal inflections that people made?
.. You know, on second thought, don't answer that.
Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?
Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.
Well OK, but 2.5 months?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Dusty Warrior
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Posted - 2011.08.30 19:53:00 -
[63]
Hmmm...
I've had this nagging for some time now. First, thought it was the wifey, then noticed a curiosity.
Firstly, I know the meaning behind NDA, PIA, CA, CIA etc.I've signed a few in my life and understand the purpose.
However, since the CSM members are players too, I find myself wondering how much of that information was/is passed on that gives the CSM members an unfair advantage.
300k account holders not affiliated or fortunate/unfortunate to know the members of the present or past CSM are left at a disadvantage?
This would also extend to the employess who play EVE as a member of player ran corps and alliances. We've already seen the damage can be done, hence the introduction of CSM.
We've all read and observed the general consensus of the present CSM towards anyone who didn't vote for them. They don't represent any individual, corp, alliance who didn't vote for them. Only represent friends, family and the like.
How fair is it that a group of people like the CSM get to see what is in the future for EVE before us all?
Really, how fair is it?
Why even have a CSM? They've made it abundantly clear where they stand on the remainder of 300k players. I'll ask again as I've asked in numerous other posts... if the CSM only represents less than 3% at best then why is CCP wasting money that can be spent on more important things that will benefit us all, not just the few 0.0 carebears.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:17:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 20:19:46
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 14:40:48
Originally by: Aus Man Industries by the time they come out will they be as relevant? Oh hey look CSM was strong aposed to gold ammo...to bad there has been a devblog on that, or how about in the minutes they talk about the upcoming patch..that we already have the notes for?
If the CSM were strongly opposed to anything expect it to get NDAed
I agree Buck CSM is a sad joke. a PR scam they cam throw up when they need it and ignore it when they dont.
As a silly aside: anyone remember when the CSM was formed and what impossible task it was developed for?
I don't remember what it was developed for but I certainly know what it was developed as a result of.
CCP, I can stick up for your game because it is still fun to play to this day. However, your actions, or lack thereof, really make it a difficult chore. You guys need to quit saying you are going to do **** that you cant do in the time-frame you give.
2.5 months for some minutes is bull**** in anybodies book.
When you said you wanted to have better communications you mgiht as well have said "We don't plan on gold ammo and if you want to know anything deeper than that GTFO."
Because that's exactly what you gave us.
Back when T20 happened we got an announcement OR Dev Blog, that part I dont remember what I DO remember is it was the formation of a select group of people to be voted in and selected by the players to go to Iceland to ensure CCP wouldnt cheat in the game again. That was of course impossible, so we get the group of marionettes we see now
Originally by: Dusty Warrior
Why even have a CSM? They've made it abundantly clear where they stand on the remainder of 300k players. I'll ask again as I've asked in numerous other posts... if the CSM only represents less than 3% at best then why is CCP wasting money that can be spent on more important things that will benefit us all, not just the few 0.0 carebears.
technically as Ive heard and seen thrown around its like 10-15%. Its said 80% of the game's population are in High sec -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP. |
BehindDOORNEXWhore
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:20:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Dusty Warrior
Why even have a CSM?
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:24:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Dusty Warrior Hmmm...
I've had this nagging for some time now. First, thought it was the wifey, then noticed a curiosity.
Firstly, I know the meaning behind NDA, PIA, CA, CIA etc.I've signed a few in my life and understand the purpose.
However, since the CSM members are players too, I find myself wondering how much of that information was/is passed on that gives the CSM members an unfair advantage.
300k account holders not affiliated or fortunate/unfortunate to know the members of the present or past CSM are left at a disadvantage?
This would also extend to the employess who play EVE as a member of player ran corps and alliances. We've already seen the damage can be done, hence the introduction of CSM.
We've all read and observed the general consensus of the present CSM towards anyone who didn't vote for them. They don't represent any individual, corp, alliance who didn't vote for them. Only represent friends, family and the like.
How fair is it that a group of people like the CSM get to see what is in the future for EVE before us all?
Really, how fair is it?
Why even have a CSM? They've made it abundantly clear where they stand on the remainder of 300k players. I'll ask again as I've asked in numerous other posts... if the CSM only represents less than 3% at best then why is CCP wasting money that can be spent on more important things that will benefit us all, not just the few 0.0 carebears.
2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.
. Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:48:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.
And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).
So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets. CCP blew the name Exodus on the wrong expansion.
Two step for CSM6 - http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/ |
Ris Dnalor
Minmatar Fleet of Doom RaVeN Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.30 23:08:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Jason1138
Originally by: 'CCP Xhagen' I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get.
i don't agree at all. i would enjoy reading a direct transcription that puts a name to every comment.
I agree with Jason1138, and disagree with CCP Xhagen.
-----
Shrink the Blobs, or at least make the blobs SMARTER! |
Nin Kimrov
Minmatar Kenzi Arms and Munitions
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Posted - 2011.08.30 23:22:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.
And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).
So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.
You know, in a game were creating an account for botting is so easy, I wouldn't be surprised if they were using information like that for their own use.
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Goddess Ishtar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 02:22:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Cipher Jones 2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.
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What Isdees
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Posted - 2011.08.31 02:26:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
You know, in a game were creating an account for botting is so easy, I wouldn't be surprised if they were using information like that for their own use.
You know, in a game where players of then major corps are known to have CCP devs on IM lists....
Unless of course IA monitors every IM you send out, every Vent convo, every email
...or even care as much as you pretend they do.
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AnzacPaul
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.08.31 04:58:00 -
[72]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?
Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.
Xhagen, look at it from our point of view. Can you see why we are annoyed? 3 months, for a transcript of minutes. Minutes that are being edited and edited that many times that they will resemble nothing of both the dialogue or the tone set by the meeting. All it will be is a replica of the statements released after the summit. In fact it doesn't really matter anymore, it's almost like CCP look at its playerbase with the same distaste as we view them. I cant get that.
I know you personally can't do anything about the minutes, but please, think before you post. Think about how part of the community is at the moment. We dont need more excuses. We dont need more fabrication.
All we want is a reason to keep playing our favourite game. So many people fail to see that the whining and complaining on the forums is only because people want to keep Eve a great game. ______
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Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.31 05:22:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.
u know the last CSM that used his NDA knowledge to make billions was kicked off the CSM (banned i think too) and never allowed to run for CSM again, right?
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Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.08.31 08:39:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Goddess Ishtar
Originally by: Cipher Jones 2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.
Only if you only care about 0.0. Not everybody only cares about 0.0. And if you think ABC ores impact 0.0 mining profitabilty your very uninformed. - Hilmar getur ekki tala= vi= ¦ig n·na, hann er a= fara f japanska tfskuverslun.
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Headerman
Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.31 08:50:00 -
[75]
Just a few things i would like to point out...
1) Taking minutes is easy, typing them up to be appropriate is not 2) Having a 'transcript' is NOT minutes. At all. 3) There is no 'He said' 'She said', it's a summary bullet point for each topic: what is discussed, ideas floated, thats it. 4) There may be alot of sensitive facts in the minutes, the contents of which may be released when the time is right.
Until then, having the minutes in your hand will mean nothing at all. It's like yesterdays news. Some of the news items may have affected you already and you are aware, other things are irrelevent to you.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.31 08:53:00 -
[76]
I stand by what I said. Meeting minutes are just that, information about what was said. If your not comfertable as a company releasing information about the meetings you have, don't release them. Its that simple. If you need to edit the original content, than skip the meeting minutes and just create a dev blog with the outcome. I don't see a point in releasing meeting minutes that where changed or edited to reflect what you want people to think the meeting was about. The point of meeting minutes is to get an inside look at the actual meeting, not the edited, altered version that you would like us to to see, editing out the parts you don't.
Fluffing the meeting minutes is what I have an issue with. Again their was a meeting, people said stuff, thats what we want to read, curses and all. We want to read what people said, what they discussed and how they came to their conclusions. If you don't want us to have that, than its far more productive to just give us the results, what was decided, what steps will be taken to resolve the main issues.
Really right now, not releasing the minutes after having told us that you will is doing far more damage than the original problem for which the meeting was held. Its really poor handling of the communities interest. This was an emergency summit, called to resolve a problem with a lot of unhappy players. I listened to the pod casts on Eve radio where they interviewed the CSM's and their concerns and point of views about the main issues like NEX store and the future of Eve where all right on the money. The reason we want to see the meeting minutes is because we are all trying to come to grips exactly where CCP went wrong and how they are going to correct the situation. We want to see some results not a lot of double talk and delays. Get it together CCP, the community is up in arms and frankly (and personally) I believe it has far more to do with the lack of clear and timely information far more than the actual issues. I mean hell this whole NEX store thing was like a bomb that went off and all anyone at CCP needed to do to resolve the issue is to re-enforce their stance on how the NEX store will be used. The questions are pretty simple and direct.. What will the future of the NEX store be and what kind of items will you and won't you sell on that future. We want an honest, clear commitment from CCP. We want a Yes or a No answer. Clear, direct, purposeful and commited to seeing it through as stated. We don't want the in game items appearing on the NEX store, the question is, are their plans to do just that.
If the answer is a definitive no, that can be put up on a blog in 30 seconds flat. One line. No emergency summits needed, no BS meeting minutes. Bam.. NO.. thank you mam. Done.
There is far too much fuss and circle jerking going on in iceland with some of these issues. If you have made a decesion on something, tell us what it is and move on. Fluffing things isn't going to change anything. The answers to our questions need to be answered and everyone is looking at these meeting minutes for those answers. You have kind of created a pretty serious situation for yourselves now CCP because everyone expects those answers to be in their.
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daisy cutta
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Posted - 2011.08.31 09:14:00 -
[77]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.
Hmm why do all parties have to agree, surely minutes should just be a record of what was talked about
Or is it that one side is trying to cover up some issues or put a spin on it
Minutes could be released in 24 hrs, not three months
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Officer Spawn
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Posted - 2011.08.31 09:56:00 -
[78]
Maybe another emergency summit should be arranged to discuss the minutes of the last one. |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.31 11:15:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Officer Spawn Maybe another emergency summit should be arranged to discuss the minutes of the last one.
lol good one -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
KaarBaak
Minmatar Seatec Astronomy
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Posted - 2011.08.31 11:24:00 -
[80]
Originally by: BehindDOORNEX*****
Originally by: Dusty Warrior
Why even have a CSM?
+1
KB
He who breaks the law shall be punished back to the House of Pain. -- Sayer of the Law |
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Roime
Gallente Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.08.31 11:58:00 -
[81]
Minutes is a seriouzzz bizness :oooo
EVE IS DIEING
let's all ragequit because of something 3 months old that had no meaning whatsoever even when it was fresh
Actually no, let's not quit, but ***** & whine like spoiled little brats on forums.
Most of the playerbase never reads these forums, don't give a rat's arse about this CSM metagaming stuff, never bother with CQ QQ or that store thing because those things have 0 effect on the actual game. Boohoomoaning, namecalling and overall super negative writings on totally irrelevant things, it's like some people have nothing better to do than fill the world with negativity. Ok maybe not the world, but at least General Discussion.
If you would play moar and whine less you'd all be 136% happier - haters gonna hate, players gonna play :-*
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:25:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Roime
let's all ragequit because of something 3 months old
Better yet, lets nerdrage about ppl raging and ignore everything CCP does cause they know best
sig... -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:33:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.
u know the last CSM that used his NDA knowledge to make billions was kicked off the CSM (banned i think too) and never allowed to run for CSM again, right?
No one can possibly know that except guilty parties. What you are saying is someone got caught once and got kicked off. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:37:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Goddess Ishtar
Originally by: Cipher Jones 2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.
Both help botters and RMT'ers and I'm not surprised a goon endorses it. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Borun Tal
Minmatar Space Pods Inc
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:50:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Dusty Warrior However, since the CSM members are players too, I find myself wondering how much of that information has/was/is passed onto CSM cliches that use it against others much like insider trading on world markets.
I don't think anyone is going to deny that CSM members are Eve fanboiz, and not normal players.
Originally by: Dusty Warrior How fair is it, that a group of people like the CSM, get to see what is in the future for EVE before us all? Really, how fair is it?
You say that like it really means something... I doubt VERY seriously they get any real information, because CCP, as a global business, *NEEDS* to keep qiuet on a number of things. What the CSM hears about is crap that TenTonHammer or other fanboi online magazines already know about.
Personally, I really couldn't care less what they hear about.
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Uleai
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:00:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Two step And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).
So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.
As we all know, it is absolutely impossible to use out of game communication methods to give insider info to other players. It is unthinkable that such a thing would occur. It is also beyond belief that, in a game built on the concept of knowledge is power, no one would ever even attempt it. |
SexxxSlave
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:28:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Uleai
Originally by: Two step And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).
So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.
As we all know, it is absolutely impossible to use out of game communication methods to give insider info to other players. It is unthinkable that such a thing would occur. It is also beyond belief that, in a game built on the concept of knowledge is power, no one would ever even attempt it.
how about staying on topic, you tard?
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Nin Kimrov
Minmatar Kenzi Arms and Munitions
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:46:00 -
[88]
I agree. So where are those emergency minutes?
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:49:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Abrazzar on 31/08/2011 16:50:06
Originally by: Nin Kimrov I agree. So where are those emergency minutes?
In transition. --------
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Vaako Horizon
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:53:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Vaako Horizon on 31/08/2011 17:00:52 ...
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Bustin Jieber
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:05:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Goddess Ishtar
Originally by: Cipher Jones 2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.
Both help botters and RMT'ers
No they don't.
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Vaako Horizon
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:05:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.
And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).
So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.
Do you use the EVE client only? there are so meny ways of letting someone else know and I am sure the CSM do abuse it, what other reason is there to even be a CSM, you have no say :P
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:27:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 17:29:51 Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 17:29:21
Originally by: Uleai
Originally by: Two step And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).
So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.
As we all know, it is absolutely impossible to use out of game communication methods to give insider info to other players. It is unthinkable that such a thing would occur. It is also beyond belief that, in a game built on the concept of knowledge is power, no one would ever even attempt it.
Or have already done that stuff before. See: BoB Ive seen chatlogs an screenies from "other sites" of dev chatter on Instant Messenger before. Thats nothing new
Originally by: Bustin Jieber
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Goddess Ishtar
Originally by: Cipher Jones 2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Both of these are good ideas and I'm glad we have a CSM that realizes it.
Both help botters and RMT'ers
No they don't.
Wonderful argument
Right up there with "nuh uh" "uh huh" which is followed by "Im rubber youre glue..."
But yeah. WHY do we have a CSM again? -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Elyssa MacLeod
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:34:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 31/08/2011 17:36:00
Quote: Developer misconduct
Instances of developer misconduct in Eve Online have been substantiated, leading to debates and controversy within the game community. On February 9, 2007, a player known as ********** revealed that an Eve Online developer nicknamed 't20' had provided his alliance, Band of Brothers, with ten valuable tech 2 blueprint originals, giving them an advantage over competing alliances.
Some within the Eve Online community asked for t20's dismissal. While an apology letter was left for the community in the form of a dev blog, he remained an Eve Online developer until late 2008. ********** was permanently banned from the Eve Online universe for violating the game's Terms of Service and End-user License Agreement by revealing t20's real name.
In response to public concerns, CCP decided to set up an Internal Affairs division whose responsibility is to monitor the activities of both privileged and player accounts operated by CCP staff in-game.
Council of Stellar Management In part due to the matters above, CCP invited users to stand for the first Council of Stellar Management (CSM) in March 2008, resulting in 66 candidates seeking election to nine positions. It was a requirement that candidates release their full real names in addition to stating their in-game details. In May, after a two-week voting period, the first Council was elected, comprising seven men and two women; three each from the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, two from the USA and one from Denmark, their ages ranging from 17 to 52. The remit of the Council has been changed since it was first proposed and is now seen by CCP primarily as a route for players to make requests for changes and improvements to the game mechanics, presentation, and game content of Eve Online.
The first four Councils served for six months, after which new ones were to be elected. Each individual was only permitted to serve twice. Each CSM will get the authority to put requests to CCP three times during their term of office which CCP have stated must be answered; once in person in Iceland and twice by e-mail, with most of the costs of their visit to Iceland being borne by CCP. The fifth CSM will operate under new rules, featuring one-year terms with two Iceland trips and four email requests, as well as the abolition of the two-term limit.
The first meeting of the CSM with CCP took place in Reykjavik between June 19 and 23, 2008 and included not only the nine CSM members but a number of developers, designers, game masters and producers from CCP and members of print and video media. Matters discussed by players on the Eve Online forums were reviewed in detail and whilst some were rejected for technical reasons many were accepted by CCP as useful improvements to the game which would be introduced either in an early so-called point release or added to the development plans for a future major update.
Nominations for the second CSM opened on September 26, 2008 with voting commencing on November 9. The following third Council of Stellar Management will see a modified age restriction in effect: candidates under the age of 21 are then no longer eligible as CSM members.
THATS why Its on Wikipedia it CANT be true
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:37:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.
And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).
So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.
We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Captain Hindsite
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Posted - 2011.08.31 18:21:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Roime Minutes is a seriouzzz bizness :oooo
EVE IS DIEING
let's all ragequit because of something 3 months old that had no meaning whatsoever even when it was fresh
Actually no, let's not quit, but ***** & whine like spoiled little brats on forums.
Most of the playerbase never reads these forums, don't give a rat's arse about this CSM metagaming stuff, never bother with CQ QQ or that store thing because those things have 0 effect on the actual game. Boohoomoaning, namecalling and overall super negative writings on totally irrelevant things, it's like some people have nothing better to do than fill the world with negativity. Ok maybe not the world, but at least General Discussion.
If you would play moar and whine less you'd all be 136% happier - haters gonna hate, players gonna play :-*
Thank you for so thoroughly making yourself look like a douchebag.
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.08.31 18:43:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Cipher Jones We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.
I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. Perhaps you might try paying a little attention? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293 CCP blew the name Exodus on the wrong expansion.
Two step for CSM6 - http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/ |
Zirise
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.31 18:54:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.
I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. Perhaps you might try paying a little attention? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293
Don't mind the village idiots.
Originally by: Cipher Jones We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.
You do realize internal affairs keeps track of any accounts tied to your credit card and where your ISK/PLEX are going in game. It's not quite as easy as just 'making an alt.'
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.31 18:57:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.
I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293
You are a CSM alternate delegate.
Quote: Perhaps you might try paying a little attention?
. Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:08:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.
I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293
You are a CSM alternate delegate.
Quote: Perhaps you might try paying a little attention?
oooooooo SNAP!! -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
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Information Agent
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:10:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.
I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. Perhaps you might try paying a little attention? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293
It gives me a childish jolly, knowing that your surname has 'shlag' in it.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:10:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Zirise
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.
I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main. Perhaps you might try paying a little attention? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2293
Don't mind the village idiots.
Originally by: Cipher Jones We who? If you're a CSM and not posting on your main, GTFO. You completely prove my point by doing so. I didn't say you did, I said you could.
You do realize internal affairs keeps track of any accounts tied to your credit card and where your ISK/PLEX are going in game. It's not quite as easy as just 'making an alt.'
If I can circumvent the API to create a spy and infiltrate a corporation you can do so also.
I understand you are uncomfortable about my speculation of what could happen, and view it as an accusation of sorts. Lets just take one second to review facts.
CCP got caught cheating; then formed the CSM. At least one CSM has been caught cheating.
I'll be your idiot {huckleberry], but I'd have to be literally ****ing ******ed to assume that someone is infallible, and so would anyone else.
. Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:13:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 19:14:44
Originally by: Cipher Jones
CCP got caught cheating; then formed the CSM. At least one CSM has been caught cheating.
CSM cheating, not a surprise. power corrupts, an I doubt anyone in this game is a prefect angel to START with.
Well my question here is simple. CCP got caught cheating, formed the CSM for a PR scam that would never have worked, changed it to PR puppets they can pull out whenever they need them.
My question:
Why do we need a CSM? I know WHY we HAVE one but why do we NEED one? -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Prince Kobol
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:27:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Prince Kobol on 31/08/2011 19:27:26 Why do we need a CSM.. simple, we don't
At the moment having a CSM is causing more problems then it is solving.
There is so little trust in the current CSM that there is no point having them.
Most people believe that they do not give a damn about the game being developed for the good all but only interested in how it affects them and everybody else be damned.
Also when you have people who now work at CCP who used to be part of the very alliances that are on the current CSM, and that said alliance is deemed to be one of the most untrust worthy in the game, this only breads nothing but distrust.
Add on top of this when you look at CCP's apparent reluctance at actually doing anything against the null sec alliances who are involved with mass RMT you have to wonder.
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Elyssa MacLeod
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:29:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Prince Kobol
Most people believe that they do not give a damn about the game being developed for the good all but only interested in how it affects them and everybody else be damned.
And apparently that theyre actively trying to destroy the game. I remember when Mittens got on the CSM, ppl were saying they hoped he broke the game.
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Prince Kobol
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Posted - 2011.08.31 20:38:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
2 perfect examples; (The possibility of) 1. Ice being removed from hisec. 2. ABC being removed from Wspace.
Those 2 things are up in the air as far as the player base knows ATM. To know the outcome of those 2 scenarios before they come to be would be most advantageous financially. One could make billions from such info.
And that is why our accounts are monitored by Internal Affairs, just like the accounts of CCP employees. A CSM member did try exactly what you are describing in the past, and earned himself a temporary ban from EVE and got kicked off the CSM (go look up Larkonis Tressler).
So no, we cannot use the knowledge we get from CCP to make billions on the markets.
Right.. So a CSM member would not be able to tell a friend who is in a corp/alliance that is not connected to his/her corp/alliance outside of Eve, i.e IRC chat, private email, phone call, carrier pigeon, Semaphore, you get the point, about CCP's up and coming plans so then together they would be able to make xxx amount of isk?
Yeah, that could never happen
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supersexysucker
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Posted - 2011.08.31 23:03:00 -
[107]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen [I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method. Thus, we summarize the discussions when we write up the minutes, we mostly say 'CSM' and 'CCP' instead of saying specific names, a response follows a question or a comment, group the relevant discussion into one section in stead of having it going all over the place (like happens when talking to someone), etc. And that is where things start to get difficult, specially when the subject is of the nature like the June topic was.
We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics.
So to fix it... you are editing it to cover your fucĸ ups.
Just say it... we are editing what you see to benifit us... fucĸ you guys, lol TONE... give me a fucĸing break.
I want direct TRUTH not ccp BS lies.
HAI, you want tone... "blah blah eve sucks" (In a firm tone) "OMG tha tsounds like a great idea" =D face...
MOAR ccp BS. Look at that... I just got tone and expressions across in text! Holy fucĸ.
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Ellan Thrace
Caldari Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2011.09.01 00:15:00 -
[108]
Leaked meeting minutes, latest draft..
It was a dark and stormy night somewhere not in Iceland. The CSM had already entered the meeting room and agreed that Iceland was amazing and that the fact that CCP had called this meeting meant that CCP was seriously interested in the player's feedback.
Many of the CSM quietly reflected on their journey to Iceland and their path to being part of something as amazing as the CSM. They all thought CCP must truly be the most amazing game company ever! The CSM and of course the ripples CCP had caused in the game industry with the release of the first ever private room MMO feature with propriatary creepy character graphics that would certainly help make the new vampire game a huge success showed CCP to truly be ahead of the pack!
When CCP arrived the CSM could see in the kindly faces of the CCP employees that any thoughts of CCP not having the current player's best interest at heart clearly were a mistake!
The meetings began with CCP explaining a lot of really cool stuff that can't be discussed here because of NDA. The CSM then shared that they had heard rumors that some players were concerned about a leaked memo and some other email but that largely they were just happy to get another chance to hang out in Iceland.
For serveral days the CSM and CCP shared wonderful ideas about the future of Eve which sadly again cannot be shared due to NDA. What both sides finally agreed on was that a statement could be released to share the real sentiment of the meeting.
They all agreed that CCP loves Eve and would never do anything to Eve that wasn't awesome and the CSM sully supported CCP in making Eve even more awesome in the future.
The meeting was ajorned on the last day while CCP and the CSM enjoyed playing with puppies and kittens in the lobby of the main CCP offices.
Notes attached to the draft say this version still needs work to be approved as it contains too much content about the meeting itself and there were not enough cute elements to distract the players. It suggests adding something about some new fashion items or pets in future versions of CQ.
ET Press Officer Tadakatsu Obata Corporation Helping make the world less bum-optimal! |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.09.01 01:18:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Ellan Thrace
The meeting was ajorned on the last day while CCP and the CSM enjoyed playing with puppies and kittens in the lobby of the main CCP offices.
Not true, there were also pony rides. I was there... CCP blew the name Exodus on the wrong expansion.
Two step for CSM6 - http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/ |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 02:17:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Two step
Originally by: Ellan Thrace
The meeting was ajorned on the last day while CCP and the CSM enjoyed playing with puppies and kittens in the lobby of the main CCP offices.
Not true, there were also pony rides. I was there...
nice to know you take this seriously lol -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
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Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
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Posted - 2011.09.01 06:29:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
nice to know you take this seriously lol
in fairness, even if Two Step WASNT taking this seriously, would you really blame him? I mean CCP isnt taking CSM seriously, so why should any of them take it seriously? |
Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.09.01 07:59:00 -
[112]
I wish I worked in Iceland.
If CCP is any example, apparently it's common for one man's work for a day to take entire corporations months or years to accomplish.
For example: Just this morning Hilmar received a cup of coffee from his secretary. The problem being, he asked to go get the cup of coffee sometime in January.
How many ways does CCP need to tell all of you to screw off before you actually get the hint? Just keep paying them money and they'll give you whatever the hell they feel like. If you have complaints or concerns, shut up or leave, CCP does not care.
This cow is old, they've slaughtered it and sent it to market so they can buy feed for their new cows.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
Trolls Troll
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:39:00 -
[113]
Anyone want to take bets on how long before mins are released?
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Uleai
|
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:09:00 -
[114]
Originally by: SexxxSlave how about staying on topic, you tard?
It appears that no one else is either. I'll post whatever I want, whenever I want, wherever I want. I don't see you calling out all the people after me. Bite me. |
WeirdNoise
Caldari tagueuletoi
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:26:00 -
[115]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get.
Nope, this customer does not agree.
Quote: And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.
I don't care, it's the beauty of the written text medium : you use your imagination to fill the blanks in.
Quote: Thus, we summarize the discussions when we write up the minutes, we mostly say 'CSM' and 'CCP' instead of saying specific names,
Horrendous choice but very predictable from a corporate perspective.
Quote: a response follows a question or a comment, group the relevant discussion into one section in stead of having it going all over the place (like happens when talking to someone),
I hate being baby-sit and patronized. I want information and that means Reality, not rewriting. The minutes would be interesting to read if they were real minutes (i.e. unedited) but now that you've described how they're made up, I won't even bother checking them out... which I suspect, is the real underlying objective in such a long winded editing tactic.
Quote: etc. And that is where things start to get difficult, specially when the subject is of the nature like the June topic was.
I hate corporations. They turn people into zombies, both their customers and employees.
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Aisle9
|
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:29:00 -
[116]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: CCP Xhagen I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method.
The other day, a CSM member (I believe White Tree) mentioned that CCP and the CSM couldn't agree on the "tone" of the minutes.
Do you really expect us to believe that the disagreement is based on the vocal inflections that people made?
.. You know, on second thought, don't answer that.
Your reverse psychology worked on me! When it comes to someone saying angrily "But I disagree!" do you reflect that in the minutes as 'CCP/CSM angrily disagreed!', 'CCP/CSM disagreed', 'CCP/CSM voiced objections to the statement', 'CCP/CSM noted their disapproval' or 'CCP/CSM wanted to point out another manner to address the issue'?
Sure, these things might look trivial (but they aren't) , but I want all parties to agree on the minutes - thus these things have to be discussed.
Capturing the tone is easy. Change every 'CCP said..' to "CCP lied and said..." and you will get the correct tone.
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LJB
Dissonance Corp BLACK-MARK
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:36:00 -
[117]
The issue has and will always be about the ballance of power that is eve, currently it is and has been since I've been around very much slanted towards ccp, yes it is there product, but we are buying that product from them, issues then arrise because ccp have a set of rules they expect us to follow, yet they demonstrate through there actions, (and sometimes inaction) a lack of rules governing themselves, thus the balance of power in eve is screwed and slanted totally towards ccp.
What I would like to see the csm focusing on is addressing this, so that there is s minimal set of standards we can expect From ccp, a set of standards we can hold them to as well.
LJB
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tika te
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:44:00 -
[118]
Edited by: tika te on 01/09/2011 14:44:51 just few bits of info here... Linkage
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Smoking Blunts
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Posted - 2011.09.01 15:06:00 -
[119]
Originally by: tika te Edited by: tika te on 01/09/2011 14:44:51 just few bits of info here... Linkage
good read, confirms ccp just want it to sound liek they give a **** about eve and the players. which is clearly the oposit of there actions of late
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Venko Trenulo
Spelunkers
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Posted - 2011.09.01 15:18:00 -
[120]
Regardless of the nuances the two or more sides are trying to convey with the minutes, dragging it out is not helpful. Political scandal image advisers say a politician who screws up is much better off doing a complete data dump early. Get it all out and move on. None of the "nobody will ever find out" - because if they do find out, it reminds everybody of the screw-up and it all spins up again, perhaps even on a higher pitch. Look at the comment from the CCP COO who gave an interview to the Icelandic newspaperpaper mbl.is using an obscene reference to describe the protesters -- big forum news for two days, and then it expired from the front page. Scandal over... at least that part.
So the CSM didn't approve the CCP-prepared minutes? Let them issue their own minutes. The CCM doesn't agree among themselves? Let them each issue as many as needed. This isn't like the Yalta Agreements, where everybody has to agree on how something was said... but oh, wait -- the English and Russian versions of Yalta didn't agree, arguably exacerbating the cold war. But I digress. I would hazard a guess that the EVE-Online players who care about these issues are smart enough to read and compare and understand who's "nuancing" where... if anybody cares.
Trickling this stuff out wasn't a winning strategy, in my opinion.
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Strider Hiryu
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.09.01 15:23:00 -
[121]
/NOT HAPPY
bring back my ship in station! I like beer and cheese... |
WeirdNoise
Caldari tagueuletoi
|
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:40:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Thornat We don't want the in game items appearing on the NEX store, the question is, are their plans to do just that.
NO. "Are there plans ?" is the perfect unaccountable, unliable question and it leads to its obvious "of course not, dear gullible sheeple" answer.
CCP can release later what they claimed "not having plans to implement" without breaking its word : they just figured out "plans" after having denie dhaving any, duh.
This is a non-binding statement, typical PR stunt. And it worked, one just has to peruse the "CCP issues a statement after its meeting with CSM" sticky thread to confirm it. CCP is right to treat its customers as idiotic children because it works.
A binding statement would be : "We will never implement any P2W." But obviously, when you read their insider newsletter you know this just would be impossible.
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Steph Wing
Gallente The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.09.01 18:43:00 -
[123]
For those of you who haven't heard, Seleene has made a blog post.
http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com/2011/08/csm-emergency-summit-aftermath.html
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Aniete Hetheres
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Posted - 2011.09.01 20:00:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Aniete Hetheres on 01/09/2011 20:00:32
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Thornat You write down what was said.
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method. Thus, we summarize the discussions when we write up the minutes, we mostly say 'CSM' and 'CCP' instead of saying specific names, a response follows a question or a comment, group the relevant discussion into one section in stead of having it going all over the place (like happens when talking to someone), etc. And that is where things start to get difficult, specially when the subject is of the nature like the June topic was.
We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics.
Here's an idea. Why not a video, or an audio recording then? You can edit out anything you need to for NDA purposes and have subtitles in different languages. Tone of voice and bodily expression (in my experience) transcends language barriers. Thoughts? Objections? I can't imagine you guys don't already have all this kind of footage on hand.
{edit for fail sentence}
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 20:06:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
nice to know you take this seriously lol
in fairness, even if Two Step WASNT taking this seriously, would you really blame him? I mean CCP isnt taking CSM seriously, so why should any of them take it seriously?
hence the thread where I asked why the hell we even NEED them anymore -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
SexxxSlave
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Posted - 2011.09.01 20:09:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Trolls Troll Anyone want to take bets on how long before mins are released?
:18months: |
Elyssa MacLeod
|
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:15:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Steph Wing For those of you who haven't heard, Seleene has made a blog post.
http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com/2011/08/csm-emergency-summit-aftermath.html
Quote: I'd be really curious to know if Fearless has been fearlessly cancelled for fear that another one would be fearlessly leaked.
I lolled
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Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.09.01 21:26:00 -
[128]
This type of thing happens a lot when the minutes of a contentious meeting are vetted by both sides before being released.
Do you know what usually happens when it drags on for too long?
Someone leaks the originals.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 21:54:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Esan Vartesa
This type of thing happens a lot when the minutes of a contentious meeting are vetted by both sides before being released.
Do you know what usually happens when it drags on for too long?
Someone leaks the originals.
now THAAAAT would be both be funny and prove the CSM arent CCP puppets lol -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Hamatitio
Caldari Aperture Harmonics K162
|
Posted - 2011.09.01 21:56:00 -
[130]
So um, did anyone else notice the following:
Originally by: Seleene's Sandbox As I mentioned previously, while I was unable to physically attend the emergency summit, I was on Skype for most of the sessions (got up at 4am one morning, ugh) and then watched the video recordings of the whole affair once they were available
So the video recordings of the entire meeting are available. There is nothing to edit out, no tone to set. The video will display the tone as accurately as if we were standing next to you in the meeting.
Post the videos.
Originally by: Forrest Gump
And that's all I got to say 'bout that.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 22:20:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Hamatitio So um, did anyone else notice the following:
Originally by: Seleene's Sandbox As I mentioned previously, while I was unable to physically attend the emergency summit, I was on Skype for most of the sessions (got up at 4am one morning, ugh) and then watched the video recordings of the whole affair once they were available
So the video recordings of the entire meeting are available. There is nothing to edit out, no tone to set. The video will display the tone as accurately as if we were standing next to you in the meeting.
Post the videos.
But it wont have the "tone" that CCP wants :D -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.09.01 22:45:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Stitcher Edited by: Stitcher on 30/08/2011 12:20:01
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
Fair enough.
See, and right here is proof that the devs have way better PR skills than I ever would, beause my response to that would have been to call Harlot out on how incredibly b*tchy that statement was. Guess if I worked for CCP they'd have to forbid me from going anywhere near the forums.
Most of the devs are alright guys, its the top brass at CCP that is doing all the massing up. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Nin Kimrov
Minmatar Kenzi Arms and Munitions
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 00:30:00 -
[133]
So? Where are those emergency minutes?
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Sullen Skoung
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 01:22:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Stitcher Edited by: Stitcher on 30/08/2011 12:20:01
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
Fair enough.
See, and right here is proof that the devs have way better PR skills than I ever would, beause my response to that would have been to call Harlot out on how incredibly b*tchy that statement was. Guess if I worked for CCP they'd have to forbid me from going anywhere near the forums.
Most of the devs are alright guys, its the top brass at CCP that is doing all the massing up.
Yeah, I hear T20 was a nice guy. Helped out his friends........ -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
AnzacPaul
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:42:00 -
[135]
Bumping this for some CCP action. What happened to better communication?
If the minutes are that bad CCP, you know you've messed up. ______
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Generous Benefactor
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Posted - 2011.09.02 05:52:00 -
[136]
This whole topic is a laughable disgrace. Over 3 months to publish a set of meeting minutes because the company continually wants to edit the tone? This just shows how utterly ****ing incompetent they are at managing communications and responding to the challenge to be more transparent with their customers.
The irony is they've done the complete opposite of what they needed to do to restore faith with their customers.
Whatever CCP elects to publish, it's too late, the damage is done all over again and the cycle of fail repeats itself. If I were an investor I'd be very worried.
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AnzacPaul
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:54:00 -
[137]
Edited by: AnzacPaul on 02/09/2011 05:55:16
______
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Flamespar
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 06:12:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Steph Wing For those of you who haven't heard, Seleene has made a blog post.
http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com/2011/08/csm-emergency-summit-aftermath.html
Read it. Here is a summary.
CCP wants to add its spin CSM wants to add its spin Players want to spin ships
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Trolls Troll
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Posted - 2011.09.02 06:14:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Flamespar
Read it. Here is a summary.
CCP wants to add its spin CSM wants to add its spin Players want to spin ships
you sure this isnt a leaked copy of the emergency summit minutes
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Sullen Skoung
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 06:16:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Generous Benefactor This whole topic is a laughable disgrace. Over 3 months to publish a set of meeting minutes because the company continually wants to edit the tone? This just shows how utterly ****ing incompetent they are at managing communications and responding to the challenge to be more transparent with their customers.
The irony is they've done the complete opposite of what they needed to do to restore faith with their customers.
Whatever CCP elects to publish, it's too late, the damage is done all over again and the cycle of fail repeats itself. If I were an investor I'd be very worried.
well no, as it really seems, the CSM want to edit the minutes so CCP is held responsible for their actions and CCP are basically saying "yeah **** that" -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.09.02 06:17:00 -
[141]
All that needs to be said is if they are editing it in any way the document is worthless since every aspect of it is now in doubt due to said editing.
I can understand a little tag line like removed for NDA and or Trade secret. But that should only take a week at most.
At this point anything we get is as good as toilet paper.
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Flamespar
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Posted - 2011.09.02 06:19:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Flamespar on 02/09/2011 06:19:23
Originally by: Generous Benefactor
well no, as it really seems, the CSM want to edit the minutes so CCP is held responsible for their actions and CCP are basically saying "yeah **** that"
Yes, both CCP and CSM are holding up the release of these minutes. Blame both parties for being unable to get their sh*t together if you need to blame anyone.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.09.02 06:24:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Flamespar Edited by: Flamespar on 02/09/2011 06:19:23
Originally by: Generous Benefactor
well no, as it really seems, the CSM want to edit the minutes so CCP is held responsible for their actions and CCP are basically saying "yeah **** that"
Yes, both CCP and CSM are holding up the release of these minutes. Blame both parties for being unable to get their sh*t together if you need to blame anyone.
another post you'll need to clarify.
The CSM's job, per CCP CEO himself is "bull**** detector".
Now CCP wants the CSM to be ok with bull****ting the community about the realities of the meeting and the reasons for it.
So you're saying is: We should blame the CSM for trying to do their job instead of just rolling over for CCP in hopes of expediting meeting minutes that in CCP's PR spin-machine version will not actually reflect the meeting?
troll harder
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
Sullen Skoung
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 06:28:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Flamespar Edited by: Flamespar on 02/09/2011 06:19:23
Originally by: Generous Benefactor
well no, as it really seems, the CSM want to edit the minutes so CCP is held responsible for their actions and CCP are basically saying "yeah **** that"
Yes, both CCP and CSM are holding up the release of these minutes. Blame both parties for being unable to get their sh*t together if you need to blame anyone.
I have a blog from a CSM that puts the blame on CCP I havent seen a blog from CCP blaming the CSM or Id revise my opinion. Provide me with a link an Ill change that statement, otherwise thats just your opinion. -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Flamespar
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Posted - 2011.09.02 06:33:00 -
[145]
As if CCP would post a blog suggesting that CSM is holding things up.
My point whilst it seems the popular choice to blame everything on CCP. In this process. Both CSM and CCP need to come to an agreement. Both groups are complicit in the delay.
Learn to reason.
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AmarrPriceStamp Lazair
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 06:44:00 -
[146]
Edited by: AmarrPriceStamp Lazair on 02/09/2011 06:44:07
Originally by: Flamespar As if CCP would post a blog suggesting that CSM is holding things up.
My point whilst it seems the popular choice to blame everything on CCP. In this process. Both CSM and CCP need to come to an agreement. Both groups are complicit in the delay.
Learn to reason.
I don't think you see the actual reason here.
Didn't you see Zulu's blogs and haven't you read the blog from a member of CSM that pretty much reveal the reality of CSM Minute? And btw, even Nex were introduced.
There is no blame on CSM and the blame is more on CCP. CCP just drag CSM out and waste their time with pouring some b******ts on them. |
Sullen Skoung
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 06:45:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Flamespar
Learn to assume.
fixt that for you cause without proof thats what youre doing -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
SexxxSlave
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 07:28:00 -
[148]
i will not rest until these minutes have been delivered
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oematoema
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 07:40:00 -
[149]
This could just turn out to be the next threadnought, nice test for the new forums.
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Thornat
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 08:08:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Thornat on 02/09/2011 08:09:43 The CSM or someone at CCP should just leak the minutes and let **** hit the fan. In all honesty the more CCP is humbled the better it will be for the game in the long run. Right now CCP believe themselves to be these super successful, untouchable entity that has the best sandbox game on the market leaving them in a position of infinite clout which they can use anyway they see fit. They need to have the rug pulled from under them and brought down to earth so perhaps they might realize that their success is firmly in the palms of the players and we decide wether or not they have a future.
Every day there are fewer and fewer people logging into Eve and every day more and more long time friends are playing less and less, some leaving outright. Its a sad state of affairs and the whole thing is just one big ****ing contest between the community and CCP, a contest which will result in everyone loosing simultanously. Their is no victory for the community if CCP and Eve fail as both a company and as a game, and certainly their is no victory if CCP gets their way and the community abandons them.
The failure of CCP management right now is so vivid and outragous I'm really suprised that heads aren't rolling. This situation needs to be resolved definitively, CCP needs to re-affirm their commitment to the game, re-organize their plans and start thinking like players not businessmen. If they do that, they might just make all that money they are hoping on making, but as long as they continue to **** of the community and people continue to leave the game nothing they do or say matters. They have to cataroize this bleeding wound and you start by publicy apologizing, showing some humility and making a new commitment to do better, following that up by sticking to the commitment.
CCP managers need to get their **** together fast before this whole thing goes to a point beyond saving.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 08:14:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
There is bound to be a douche bag everywhere. Judging the rest of the devs on the actions of 1 man is simple minded though.
It is easy to see what is going on at CCP though. The devs operate under a system that has poor internal communication, and a system that is very much based on how much the top guys like your face if you want to get ahead. And the top brass, and owners of CCP is only thinking profit, nothing else.
It is easy to blame the devs, since they are the ones who posts here from time to time. You ever see Hilmar make a post here these last years? He sends his minions to the flames.
Most of the devs simply want to make a living, and make a cool game while they are at it. But if the system in CCP is so poor as I think it is, well you see the result. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
SexxxSlave
|
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:28:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Thornat Edited by: Thornat on 02/09/2011 08:09:43 The CSM or someone at CCP should just leak the minutes and let **** hit the fan. In all honesty the more CCP is humbled the better it will be for the game in the long run. Right now CCP believe themselves to be these super successful, untouchable entity that has the best sandbox game on the market leaving them in a position of infinite clout which they can use anyway they see fit. They need to have the rug pulled from under them and brought down to earth so perhaps they might realize that their success is firmly in the palms of the players and we decide wether or not they have a future.
Every day there are fewer and fewer people logging into Eve and every day more and more long time friends are playing less and less, some leaving outright. Its a sad state of affairs and the whole thing is just one big ****ing contest between the community and CCP, a contest which will result in everyone loosing simultanously. Their is no victory for the community if CCP and Eve fail as both a company and as a game, and certainly their is no victory if CCP gets their way and the community abandons them.
The failure of CCP management right now is so vivid and outragous I'm really suprised that heads aren't rolling. This situation needs to be resolved definitively, CCP needs to re-affirm their commitment to the game, re-organize their plans and start thinking like players not businessmen. If they do that, they might just make all that money they are hoping on making, but as long as they continue to **** of the community and people continue to leave the game nothing they do or say matters. They have to cataroize this bleeding wound and you start by publicy apologizing, showing some humility and making a new commitment to do better, following that up by sticking to the commitment.
CCP managers need to get their **** together fast before this whole thing goes to a point beyond saving.
QFT
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Trolls Troll
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Posted - 2011.09.03 03:49:00 -
[153]
Minutes CCP? You has them?
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Living Dead Girl
|
Posted - 2011.09.03 04:15:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Thornat Edited by: Thornat on 02/09/2011 08:09:43 The CSM or someone at CCP should just leak the minutes and let **** hit the fan. In all honesty the more CCP is humbled the better it will be for the game in the long run. Right now CCP believe themselves to be these super successful, untouchable entity that has the best sandbox game on the market leaving them in a position of infinite clout which they can use anyway they see fit. They need to have the rug pulled from under them and brought down to earth so perhaps they might realize that their success is firmly in the palms of the players and we decide wether or not they have a future.
Every day there are fewer and fewer people logging into Eve and every day more and more long time friends are playing less and less, some leaving outright. Its a sad state of affairs and the whole thing is just one big ****ing contest between the community and CCP, a contest which will result in everyone loosing simultanously. Their is no victory for the community if CCP and Eve fail as both a company and as a game, and certainly their is no victory if CCP gets their way and the community abandons them.
The failure of CCP management right now is so vivid and outragous I'm really suprised that heads aren't rolling. This situation needs to be resolved definitively, CCP needs to re-affirm their commitment to the game, re-organize their plans and start thinking like players not businessmen. If they do that, they might just make all that money they are hoping on making, but as long as they continue to **** of the community and people continue to leave the game nothing they do or say matters. They have to cataroize this bleeding wound and you start by publicy apologizing, showing some humility and making a new commitment to do better, following that up by sticking to the commitment.
CCP managers need to get their **** together fast before this whole thing goes to a point beyond saving.
Jeez this is dead on. +1
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Sullen Skoung
|
Posted - 2011.09.03 04:21:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
There is bound to be a douche bag everywhere. Judging the rest of the devs on the actions of 1 man is simple minded though.
someone wanna translate this? I get that he's calling me a douche bag... the rest not so clear -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Enkidu Uruksen
Wakizashi Renaissance
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Posted - 2011.09.03 06:05:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
There is bound to be a douche bag everywhere. Judging the rest of the devs on the actions of 1 man is simple minded though.
someone wanna translate this? I get that he's calling me a douche bag... the rest not so clear
That bit is not about you. He's saying t20 was a douche bag, there are bound to be douche bags everywhere, and that not all the devs are nasty cheaters like t20 was at that time. If you said the behavior of t20 was proof that all devs are evil, then he's calling you simple minded.
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Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2011.09.03 06:23:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 03/09/2011 06:25:04
players usually employ a very broad definition of "dev"
it seems hat the douchebags sit in (upper) management and are not really "developers" - but in general everyone still refers to these guys as "devs"
I don't think anybody really blames the poor codemonkeys (no disrespect intended) that do their best to write decent code subject to all the requests, restrictions, deadlines, ... pushed on them by management and PMs.
Decisions about what features to implement in how short a time, whether to refactor ugly old code, what bugs are blocking a release and which can be fixed later(TM), ... are not decisions made by your regular dev.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.03 09:31:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Enkidu Uruksen
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
There is bound to be a douche bag everywhere. Judging the rest of the devs on the actions of 1 man is simple minded though.
someone wanna translate this? I get that he's calling me a douche bag... the rest not so clear
That bit is not about you. He's saying t20 was a douche bag, there are bound to be douche bags everywhere, and that not all the devs are nasty cheaters like t20 was at that time. If you said the behavior of t20 was proof that all devs are evil, then he's calling you simple minded.
ah so someone cant take a joke. good to know. Im on 2 5-500 Lortab every 6 hrs due to broken bones. my mind works slowly -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
SexxxSlave
|
Posted - 2011.09.03 16:53:00 -
[159]
sup CCP, where are these minutes? We're pushing three months now...
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IskPlease
|
Posted - 2011.09.03 17:42:00 -
[160]
Originally by: SexxxSlave sup CCP, where are these minutes? We're pushing three months now...
Wohoo, just 15 months to go...
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Tomas Sean Connery
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Posted - 2011.09.03 19:13:00 -
[161]
Originally by: IskPlease
Originally by: SexxxSlave sup CCP, where are these minutes? We're pushing three months now...
Wohoo, just 15 months to go...
I thought 5 years was the new 18 months... So 4 years 9 months?
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Cailais
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.09.03 19:57:00 -
[162]
Just leak the minutes. Who cares what CCP wants in its PR?
C.
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Nin Kimrov
Minmatar Kenzi Arms and Munitions
|
Posted - 2011.09.03 20:18:00 -
[163]
That would be a hit if the csm leaked the first version of the minutes. Whatever would be the nda break. CCP banning the csm would be like shooting in their own foot.
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BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
|
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:09:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Cailais Just leak the minutes. Who cares what CCP wants in its PR?
C.
Mittens can't leak them. They haven't been approved yet by CCP or White Tree burned the originals with gasoline
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Forum Worrier
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Posted - 2011.09.03 21:13:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
my mind works slowly
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Haradriel Tian
|
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:14:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Thornat Edited by: Thornat on 02/09/2011 08:09:43 The CSM or someone at CCP should just leak the minutes and let **** hit the fan. In all honesty the more CCP is humbled the better it will be for the game in the long run. Right now CCP believe themselves to be these super successful, untouchable entity that has the best sandbox game on the market leaving them in a position of infinite clout which they can use anyway they see fit. They need to have the rug pulled from under them and brought down to earth so perhaps they might realize that their success is firmly in the palms of the players and we decide wether or not they have a future.
Every day there are fewer and fewer people logging into Eve and every day more and more long time friends are playing less and less, some leaving outright. Its a sad state of affairs and the whole thing is just one big ****ing contest between the community and CCP, a contest which will result in everyone loosing simultanously. Their is no victory for the community if CCP and Eve fail as both a company and as a game, and certainly their is no victory if CCP gets their way and the community abandons them.
The failure of CCP management right now is so vivid and outragous I'm really suprised that heads aren't rolling. This situation needs to be resolved definitively, CCP needs to re-affirm their commitment to the game, re-organize their plans and start thinking like players not businessmen. If they do that, they might just make all that money they are hoping on making, but as long as they continue to **** of the community and people continue to leave the game nothing they do or say matters. They have to cataroize this bleeding wound and you start by publicy apologizing, showing some humility and making a new commitment to do better, following that up by sticking to the commitment.
CCP managers need to get their **** together fast before this whole thing goes to a point beyond saving.
This is spot on.
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Veengere
|
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:16:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 03/09/2011 06:25:04
players usually employ a very broad definition of "dev"
it seems hat the douchebags sit in (upper) management and are not really "developers" - but in general everyone still refers to these guys as "devs"
I don't think anybody really blames the poor codemonkeys (no disrespect intended) that do their best to write decent code subject to all the requests, restrictions, deadlines, ... pushed on them by management and PMs.
Decisions about what features to implement in how short a time, whether to refactor ugly old code, what bugs are blocking a release and which can be fixed later(TM), ... are not decisions made by your regular dev.
They are part of the development of the game. Actually the upper management decides more of what is done to the game then the hired code monkey. So yes they are Devs.
|
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:21:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Thornat The CSM or someone at CCP should just leak the minutes and let **** hit the fan. In all honesty the more CCP is humbled the better it will be for the game in the long run. Right now CCP believe themselves to be these super successful, untouchable entity that has the best sandbox game on the market leaving them in a position of infinite clout which they can use anyway they see fit. They need to have the rug pulled from under them and brought down to earth so perhaps they might realize that their success is firmly in the palms of the players and we decide wether or not they have a future.
Every day there are fewer and fewer people logging into Eve and every day more and more long time friends are playing less and less, some leaving outright. Its a sad state of affairs and the whole thing is just one big ****ing contest between the community and CCP, a contest which will result in everyone loosing simultanously. Their is no victory for the community if CCP and Eve fail as both a company and as a game, and certainly their is no victory if CCP gets their way and the community abandons them.
The failure of CCP management right now is so vivid and outragous I'm really suprised that heads aren't rolling. This situation needs to be resolved definitively, CCP needs to re-affirm their commitment to the game, re-organize their plans and start thinking like players not businessmen. If they do that, they might just make all that money they are hoping on making, but as long as they continue to **** of the community and people continue to leave the game nothing they do or say matters. They have to cataroize this bleeding wound and you start by publicy apologizing, showing some humility and making a new commitment to do better, following that up by sticking to the commitment.
CCP managers need to get their **** together fast before this whole thing goes to a point beyond saving.
This. But they won't change, because certain types at the top believe they are so right.
Originally by: Two step I am a CSM, and I am posting on my main.
GTFO exploiter, you have no credibility.
Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
AnzacPaul
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 04:33:00 -
[169]
Bumping this cause I can ______
|
Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 05:39:00 -
[170]
Originally by: AnzacPaul Bumping this cause I can
|
|
AnzacPaul
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 10:56:00 -
[171]
Trebor has made a blog with his thoughts, to add to seleenes and mittani
http://treborofthecsm.blogspot.com/ ______
|
Ramalamadindong
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 11:26:00 -
[172]
Any chance we could get these before the winter expansion? |
Living Dead Girl
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 11:31:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Living Dead Girl on 04/09/2011 11:31:51 Something tells me I'd probably like to see the CSM's first draft (minus NDA stuff of course) over anything CCP releases.
|
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 12:15:00 -
[174]
Crowd Control Productions
|
oematoema
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 12:16:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Living Dead Girl Edited by: Living Dead Girl on 04/09/2011 11:31:51 Something tells me I'd probably like to see the CSM's first draft (minus NDA stuff of course) over anything CCP releases.
I'd even consider buying a monocle if we could also see the CCP-edited version of that draft.
|
Ione Hawke
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 13:54:00 -
[176]
Heh, have CSM and CCP independently release their own minutes/ view on things with the disclaimer that it is only their view. I am sure we as a community can discern the truthTM from these two views :)
Or will NDA and such prevent the CSM from releasing minutes without CCP signing off on them?
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Cozmik R5
Minmatar Dock 94
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 13:59:00 -
[177]
This morning on Twitter, from CCP Tardsauce (awesome name BTW):
"We will release the #CSM6 minutes for the #tweetfleet when the #CSM agrees to make them contain nothing that might make @CCPGames look bad."
I lol'd. Thanks for making my day Tardsauce! ____________________
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. |
Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 14:11:00 -
[178]
Originally by: AnzacPaul Trebor has made a blog with his thoughts, to add to seleenes and mittani
http://treborofthecsm.blogspot.com/
That's an excellent post: very revealing, while still maintaining the proper decorum. *****
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding |
Eclorc
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 14:36:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian
Originally by: AnzacPaul Trebor has made a blog with his thoughts, to add to seleenes and mittani
http://treborofthecsm.blogspot.com/
That's an excellent post: very revealing, while still maintaining the proper decorum.
Well, that blog says it all really.
I've got less than a week left on my account time now, have only been feeding skillqueue for all this time in vain hopes of something turning around with CCP's stance on things. Yeah, deluded I know. I like the WIS/Ambulation/Incarnal thing, want to see it expand to full station. MT store - in this subscription game simply stinks. I won't believe CCP will resist the temptation for game-changing stuff later. Boosters like Quafe Zero will be their next move. Bye Eve, you were a great friend until you changed. I know I won't be missed. I'll be back if Nexon store leaves the game. Fat chance.
|
Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 16:38:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Eclorc
Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian
Originally by: AnzacPaul Trebor has made a blog with his thoughts, to add to seleenes and mittani
http://treborofthecsm.blogspot.com/
That's an excellent post: very revealing, while still maintaining the proper decorum.
Well, that blog says it all really.
I've got less than a week left on my account time now, have only been feeding skillqueue for all this time in vain hopes of something turning around with CCP's stance on things. Yeah, deluded I know. [...] Bye Eve, you were a great friend until you changed. I know I won't be missed. I'll be back if Nexon store leaves the game. Fat chance.
Same here, I have until november. -
English only please. Zymurgist |
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RougeOperator
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 16:59:00 -
[181]
The Flat number is going to go down slowly as peoples prepaid time expires. I myself sadly have like 9 months of time left cause i bought a year just before incarna came out and feel like a fool for doing so.
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Sadayiel
Caldari Inner Conflict
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 17:05:00 -
[182]
Originally by: RougeOperator The Flat number is going to go down slowly as peoples prepaid time expires. I myself sadly have like 9 months of time left cause i bought a year just before incarna came out and feel like a fool for doing so.
Seems good to me if eve gets back to 2005-2006 population then there will be less blobs moar solo roam, add the attempts of CCP to reboot EVE and encourage the playerbase will benefit the long time players.
DEAR MONOCLE OVERLORDS JOIN TO FORCE CCP ADD LORGNETTE FOR THE OVERLADIES!! |
SilentSkills
Gallente Tax Evaders Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 17:06:00 -
[183]
Originally by: RougeOperator The Flat number is going to go down slowly as peoples prepaid time expires. I myself sadly have like 9 months of time left cause i bought a year just before incarna came out and feel like a fool for doing so.
same here, they have until January to fix the game, else 2 accounts gone. The Monocle Definition |
Officer Spawn
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 18:14:00 -
[184]
I'm curious who this mysterious re-writer at CCP is. Was he at the meetings and simply remembers things differently then the rest or is he CCP WinstonSmith who compares the minutes to the official line and throws everything that does not match down the memory hole ?
|
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 18:51:00 -
[185]
CCP Fearless
|
Iden Secundus
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 19:09:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: Eclorc
Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian
Originally by: AnzacPaul Trebor has made a blog with his thoughts, to add to seleenes and mittani
http://treborofthecsm.blogspot.com/
That's an excellent post: very revealing, while still maintaining the proper decorum.
Well, that blog says it all really.
I've got less than a week left on my account time now, have only been feeding skillqueue for all this time in vain hopes of something turning around with CCP's stance on things. Yeah, deluded I know. [...] Bye Eve, you were a great friend until you changed. I know I won't be missed. I'll be back if Nexon store leaves the game. Fat chance.
Same here, I have until november.
...18.09.2011 - 2 accounts And I'm sure, I will be back in some month... But only with Plex - never again with payed subscription (why to spend money for game in stagnation?). Yes, this will CCP not help, but who cares... ? ___ ...each quarter one Plex per account for 3xx Mill - estimated final end: 2016..2018?
|
Aemmaria
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 19:26:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Aemmaria on 04/09/2011 19:27:10 Edited by: Aemmaria on 04/09/2011 19:26:01 CCP are liars, amongst their other fatal flaws. Their natural reaction is to hope that players are even bigger idiots than them - and in that they may succeed. Common least denominator, etc.
And when you find even bigger idiot than yourself, you suddenly may feel ingenious and start tapping each other. This is what CCP is doing right now.
Last account down. |
divanoo
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 19:33:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Aemmaria Edited by: Aemmaria on 04/09/2011 19:27:10 Edited by: Aemmaria on 04/09/2011 19:26:01 CCP are liars, amongst their other fatal flaws. Their natural reaction is to hope that players are even bigger idiots than them - and in that they may succeed. Common least denominator, etc.
And when you find even bigger idiot than yourself, you suddenly may feel ingenious and start tapping each other. This is what CCP is doing right now.
Last account down.
wahh wahh wahh wahh
wahh wahh wahh
|
J Kunjeh
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 19:43:00 -
[189]
I have to agree with the naysayers here. It's an absolute shame that it's taken this long for the meeting minutes from the summit. CCP is so horribly, horribly awful at communication these days that it's like watching a train-wreck. I'm one of CCP's biggest fanboi's, and every day that goes by with these forums in such a deplorable state, communication between CCP and the fans in such a slump, I too start to feel like CCP has completely lost their way. I'm not one to be all doom and gloom, because I think things could turn around in an instant, but I'm slowly losing faith in CCP's ability (nay, desire) to do anything about it. ______________________
"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) |
Di Mulle
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 19:44:00 -
[190]
Originally by: divanoo
wahh wahh wahh wahh
wahh wahh wahh
I love your creative response, dear. Lots of effort you put in cannot be missed.
Will send you some ISK for your work.
|
|
divanoo
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 19:45:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Di Mulle
Originally by: divanoo
wahh wahh wahh wahh
wahh wahh wahh
I love your creative response, dear. Lots of effort you put in cannot be missed.
Will send you some ISK for your work.
thanks bro
|
Di Mulle
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:18:00 -
[192]
Originally by: divanoo [
thanks bro
My pleasure. Use them wisely.
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Cailais
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 21:12:00 -
[193]
I think the CSM should publish their minutes and then CCP can bother / not bother to publish theirs depending upon how high it reaches on their "giveaf**ckometer"
C.
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AnzacPaul
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 21:47:00 -
[194]
Edited by: AnzacPaul on 04/09/2011 21:49:35
Originally by: Officer Spawn I'm curious who this mysterious re-writer at CCP is. Was he at the meetings and simply remembers things differently then the rest or is he CCP WinstonSmith who compares the minutes to the official line and throws everything that does not match down the memory hole ?
I'm unsure who is re-writing them, but I think a few pages back CCP Xhagen stated he was in charge of getting them released.....
Edit: appears it is Xhagen, as per first page in this thread
Linkage ______
|
Louis deGuerre
Gallente Malevolence. Imperial 0rder
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 22:05:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Flamespar CCP wants to add its spin CSM wants to add its spin Players want to spin ships
You win the internetz
|
Steph Wing
Gallente The Graduates Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 23:22:00 -
[196]
Willing to bet the reason we haven't heard anything is because CCP is hunkered down in its trenches waiting for the storm to pass.
Y'know, like they said they weren't going to do anymore.
|
Jason1138
|
Posted - 2011.09.04 23:23:00 -
[197]
"Seems good to me if eve gets back to 2005-2006 population then there will be less blobs moar solo roam, add the attempts of CCP to reboot EVE and encourage the playerbase will benefit the long time players."
oh yeah totally. i hope it gets down to 300-500 people. that will really help the game in the long run *rolls eyes*
"moar solo roam" with less people around = less solo roam once you figure out there's no one around to fight, btw
|
Sullen Skoung
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 00:47:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Thornat The CSM or someone at CCP should just leak the minutes and let **** hit the fan. In all honesty the more CCP is humbled the better it will be for the game in the long run. Right now CCP believe themselves to be these super successful, untouchable entity that has the best sandbox game on the market leaving them in a position of infinite clout which they can use anyway they see fit. They need to have the rug pulled from under them and brought down to earth so perhaps they might realize that their success is firmly in the palms of the players and we decide wether or not they have a future.
Every day there are fewer and fewer people logging into Eve and every day more and more long time friends are playing less and less, some leaving outright. Its a sad state of affairs and the whole thing is just one big ****ing contest between the community and CCP, a contest which will result in everyone loosing simultanously. Their is no victory for the community if CCP and Eve fail as both a company and as a game, and certainly their is no victory if CCP gets their way and the community abandons them.
The failure of CCP management right now is so vivid and outragous I'm really suprised that heads aren't rolling. This situation needs to be resolved definitively, CCP needs to re-affirm their commitment to the game, re-organize their plans and start thinking like players not businessmen. If they do that, they might just make all that money they are hoping on making, but as long as they continue to **** of the community and people continue to leave the game nothing they do or say matters. They have to cataroize this bleeding wound and you start by publicy apologizing, showing some humility and making a new commitment to do better, following that up by sticking to the commitment.
CCP managers need to get their **** together fast before this whole thing goes to a point beyond saving.
This. But they won't change, because certain types at the top believe they are so right.
Quote: Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say
like that guy? -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Elyssa MacLeod
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 00:54:00 -
[199]
Originally by: divanoo
wahh wahh wahh wahh
wahh wahh wahh
cool story brah umad? ------------------------- "The voice of the player has always been an integral and driving force in the maturation of EVE Online" Petur Oskarsson - naivety of youth or is he no longer with "us"? |
Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 04:29:00 -
[200]
keepin this alive til CCP posts unadulterated CSM EMERGENCY SUMMIT minutes. |
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Sullen Skoung
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 04:47:00 -
[201]
CMON MITTENS Be a real Goon an leak the minutes Not this pretend Goon in bed with CCP crap lol -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Officer Spawn
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:15:00 -
[202]
Originally by: AnzacPaul Edited by: AnzacPaul on 04/09/2011 21:49:35
Originally by: Officer Spawn I'm curious who this mysterious re-writer at CCP is. Was he at the meetings and simply remembers things differently then the rest or is he CCP WinstonSmith who compares the minutes to the official line and throws everything that does not match down the memory hole ?
I'm unsure who is re-writing them, but I think a few pages back CCP Xhagen stated he was in charge of getting them released.....
Edit: appears it is Xhagen, as per first page in this thread
Linkage
Not Xhagen, he made the draft. According to Trebor and Xhagen it went like this:
-Meetings -Xhagen makes minutes, sends them to CSM for review -CSM makes minor adjustments, sends them back to Xhagen -Xhagen sends minutes to CCP Minitrue, where our mystery man takes the Red Pen and rewrites them -CSM gets the rewritten minutes and goes bananas -CCP keeps sending minor adjustments to the minutes rather then adressing the falsification that has taken place
And here we are now, another week of silence from CCP and hurf blurf from Mittens to look forward to. |
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:39:00 -
[203]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Thornat I don't think they get what meeting minutes are about, so just for clarification. You write down what was said. Period. Its not something you fluff up that requires proper editing to capture some kind of "tone". Its just information. The meeting happened, people said stuff... you write the **** down. If you edit it, its not meeting minutes, its fluff and we already got more of that than I care to read. If I have to read another ******ed Devblog about 1000 jeans I'm going to shoot myself in the face.
See here for another thread about the matter.
Originally by: Thornat You write down what was said.
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and handwaving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method. Thus, we summarize the discussions when we write up the minutes, we mostly say 'CSM' and 'CCP' instead of saying specific names, a response follows a question or a comment, group the relevant discussion into one section in stead of having it going all over the place (like happens when talking to someone), etc. And that is where things start to get difficult, specially when the subject is of the nature like the June topic was.
We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics.
Soooo..., because a direct transcription is "uncomfortable" ( for who?)we won't get them? I think thats the point that everyone is making. We are of the belief that a direct transcription would indeed be uncomfortable, but only for CCP, and those who represented it at that meeting ( thus why names are redacted.We already have a summary. We want the minutes because we doubt your word and CCP doesnt have credibility on the issue of being Honest foand forthcoming.This is why we want the minutes. Why does CCP have to release the minutes?? Wasn't it a CSM meeting?? if so why is CCP in charge of the minutes. Seems to me should be a matter for the CSM, niot CCP. People cant see whats going on if they dont get the basic point that it should never have been under CCPs purveil in the first place to release the minutes, unless of course the impklicit implication is that the CSM answers to CCP and is nothing more than a PR mouthpiece.
The CSM should just release the minutes independently and post a link.Let CCP censor it.Then we see where we really stand, if the CSM has the goolies to do it and if CCP has the goolies to let the link stand, even if they wont post the minutes on their own website.CSM has no legitimacy or credibility if they dont independently publish the minutes. War is Hell- William Tecumseh Sherman |
Kengutsi Akira
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:41:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 05/09/2011 06:43:17
Originally by: Sullen Skoung CMON MITTENS Be a real Goon an leak the minutes Not this pretend Goon in bed with CCP crap lol
lol mittens actually work against CCP instead of kissing ass? No way! He's not a rebel, he's a conformist
an as for the CCP/CSM crap, apparently "tone" means "blame" I fully expect to get them once everyone forgets they ever existed ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:45:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Thornat I don't think they get what meeting minutes are about, so just for clarification. You write down what was said. Period. Its not something you fluff up that requires proper editing to capture some kind of "tone". Its just information. The meeting happened, people said stuff... you write the **** down. If you edit it, its not meeting minutes, its fluff and we already got more of that than I care to read. If I have to read another ******ed Devblog about 1000 jeans I'm going to shoot myself in the face.
See here for another thread about the matter.
Originally by: Thornat You write down what was said.
I think everyone can agree that direct transcription of text is as uncomfortable to read as things get. And since all expressions, tone of voice and and waving is absent in the text a lot of information is lost by that method. Thus, we summarize the discussions when we write up the minutes, we mostly say 'CSM' and 'CCP' instead of saying specific names, a response follows a question or a comment, group the relevant discussion into one section in stead of having it going all over the place (like happens when talking to someone), etc. And that is where things start to get difficult, specially when the subject is of the nature like the June topic was.
We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics.
Soooo..., because a direct transcription is "uncomfortable" ( for who?)we won't get them? I think that's the point that everyone is making. We are of the belief that a direct transcription would indeed be uncomfortable, but only for CCP, and those who represented it at that meeting ( thus why names are redacted).We already have a summary. We want the minutes because we doubt your word and CCP doesnt have credibility on the issue of being Honest and forthcoming.This is why we want the minutes.
Why does CCP have to release the minutes?? Wasn't it a CSM meeting?? if so why is CCP in charge of the minutes?? Seems to me it should be a matter for the CSM, not CCP. People can't see whats going on if they don't get the basic point that it should never have been under CCPs purveil in the first place to release the minutes, unless of course the implicit implication is that the CSM answers to CCP and is nothing more than a PR mouthpiece.
The CSM should just release the minutes independently and post a link.Let CCP censor it.Then we see where we really stand, if the CSM has the goolies to do it and if CCP has the goolies to let the link stand, even if they wont post the minutes on their own website.CSM has no legitimacy or credibility if they dont independently publish the minutes.
as an aside it's clear that YOU don't get what the purpose of the minutes is. it is a historical record that can be referred to as to what was actually said.people never record faces and gestures in minutes. That is not their purpose, nor should a record of the minutes be used to further make the case for CCPs position by some agrement as to what people actually menat and what their intent was.These are not included in minutes and are not part of minutes. You sir, need to refer to a definition of meeting minutes. They are not to be altered or changed or edited. If so then they are no longer minutes, they are something else.They exist to be a record of what was said, specifically so people can form their own opinions, and not have them interpreted for them. War is Hell- William Tecumseh Sherman |
Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:08:00 -
[206]
I prefer truth over spin. If these CSM minutes are doctored we will see the truth quickly enough when we read them most of us are quite savvy, we figured out how to play eve without any help from CCP, rather dispite them.
With the CSM being truthfull about this its hard for CCP to put a PR spin on the story with their truthiness. -
English only please. Zymurgist |
Chorone
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:40:00 -
[207]
Bet this is like the Gallente election |
El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:53:00 -
[208]
Do you really think they'll release them?
It was a PR move nothing more.
|
DeBingJos
Minmatar Goat Holdings
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:54:00 -
[209]
I'm waiting for the leaked CSM notes.
|
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:58:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Mag's But they won't change, because certain types at the top believe they are so right.
Quote: Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say
like that guy?
Yes, without a doubt. Pride comes before a fall.
Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
|
Living Dead Girl
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 11:01:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Living Dead Girl on 05/09/2011 11:01:19
Originally by: Sullen Skoung CMON MITTENS Be a real Goon an leak the minutes Not this pretend Goon in bed with CCP crap lol
He wont. He knows he'll do more good for the people he represents (goons) if he keeps his chair.
*edit* damn, missed the snipe.
|
Cailais
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:27:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung CMON MITTENS Be a real Goon an leak the minutes Not this pretend Goon in bed with CCP crap lol
I want to see the unmodified CSM minutes anyway, as I have no faith in the veracity of the CCP "spin" modified minutes so even when they are eventually published they will be essentially worthless.
C.
|
oematoema
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 21:53:00 -
[213]
9 hours since someone posted in this thread. Of course 9 hours is just the blink of an eye for minute makers, but at my back I always hear time's winged chariot hurrying near.
|
General Windypops
The Littlest Hobos En Garde
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 22:00:00 -
[214]
How on earth do you expect Mittens to have time to do unimportant stuff like this when he's busy making regular and lengthy posts on his Alliance forums updating Goons on what they need to do to make the most of the CSM?
CSM 6: Let's get Windypops indypops. |
AnzacPaul
Perkone
|
Posted - 2011.09.05 22:35:00 -
[215]
Quote: So...about those *EMERGENCY* CSM Meeting Minutes...
______
|
Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.09.05 22:39:00 -
[216]
Originally by: AnzacPaul
Quote: So...about those *EMERGENCY* CSM Meeting Minutes...
Shreegs said:
Quote: In the next week or so...
Oh wait, that was for the bot blog back in May?.....my bad.
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Hicksimus
Gallente Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
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Posted - 2011.09.05 23:40:00 -
[217]
Why do they call these minutes anyway? I've never worked anywhere that uses minutes to create bias, they serve as a way of making people think before they speak and if they say something stupid it's their ass on the line. Tofu flavored like minutes perhaps.
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Trolls Troll
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Posted - 2011.09.06 03:22:00 -
[218]
Hey CCP, just wondering if you got a minutes?
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RUSROG
Amarr Beasts of Burden
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Posted - 2011.09.06 04:24:00 -
[219]
Edited by: RUSROG on 06/09/2011 04:34:41
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
Edit1:
I think that the CSM or Mittens can 'leak' the minutes somewhere?
Or is that against CCP law?
War is the battle between the strong and their weakness. - Russian Proverb |
Empy Ralt
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Posted - 2011.09.06 05:17:00 -
[220]
Originally by: RUSROG Edited by: RUSROG on 06/09/2011 04:34:41
Originally by: Harlot Hohannson i watch what you do, not what you say. so far i see nothing.
Edit1:
I think that the CSM or Mittens can 'leak' the minutes somewhere?
Or is that against CCP law?
Yes. The NDA they all signed. Though the NDA should only really be applied to cover up "secret new content" but it's a pretty good tool when you want to gag the CSM.
The CSM has already performed their service. The "Emergency CSM" made it look to the media like CCP cared. Once the attention is off they can go back to business as usual.
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SexxxSlave
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Posted - 2011.09.06 09:37:00 -
[221]
i think it's high time for another "riot" or unsubbing round...
anyone with me on either front? Mass unsubbing worked last time :D
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ChromeStriker
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Posted - 2011.09.06 09:45:00 -
[222]
Originally by: SexxxSlave i think it's high time for another "riot" or unsubbing round...
anyone with me on either front? Mass unsubbing worked last time :D
your stuff? can i have it? - Nulla Curas |
Evil Afoot
Lunar Tech
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Posted - 2011.09.06 09:48:00 -
[223]
2 accounts have lapsed this one is up in 2 days.
I will be playing the following games & checking the crappy new forums for a CCP change of heart/direction.
Dead Island BF3 SWTOR Skyrim
I suggest you guys do the same. Otherwise you are just another sub.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.09.06 09:48:00 -
[224]
Originally by: SexxxSlave i think it's high time for another "riot" or unsubbing round...
anyone with me on either front? Mass unsubbing worked last time :D
Not really they've not yet changed course.
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Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
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Posted - 2011.09.06 09:56:00 -
[225]
Originally by: El'Niaga Not really they've not yet changed course.
it did get their attention, you cant deny that. |
Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.09.06 10:45:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: El'Niaga Not really they've not yet changed course.
it did get their attention, you cant deny that.
only enough to go "wow we need to throw the PR lackies to the sharks" ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
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Posted - 2011.09.06 10:52:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: El'Niaga Not really they've not yet changed course.
it did get their attention, you cant deny that.
only enough to go "wow we need to throw the PR lackies to the sharks"
anyone with a brain saw through that move...you clearly didnt.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.09.06 11:07:00 -
[228]
There's no point in releasing them now guys - may as well throw them in the bin.
Who's going to believe what's in the minutes after 3 months of "editing"?
Only fools.
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Trolls Troll
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Posted - 2011.09.06 11:13:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Major Stallion
anyone with a brain saw through that move...you clearly didnt.
Must have been your l33t monocotroll that enabled you to foresee such events then?
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Alissa Solette
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Posted - 2011.09.06 11:30:00 -
[230]
Edited by: Alissa Solette on 06/09/2011 11:32:24
Originally by: CCP Xhagen We are getting pretty good at writing up minutes from CSM/CCP meetings, just some topics take more time than other. And this is one of those topics.
When you say things like "take more time then others" then people think of a week, maybe two. We're talking about 10 weeks now.
If it takes you 10 weeks to summarize a two day meeting... well... I wouldn't exactly call that "good". I'd actually call it ****ing terribad and I'd go on to claim that my little sister (she's 17) would have wrote this ten times over in the time allotted even without any previous experience.
So either you're simply lying (which is pretty likely if I look at CCPs recent track record) or you're simply ****ing dismal at writing a few minutes.
What we need is a simple minutes like we got it for previous CSM meetings. I don't give a **** if it's "hard to read". Release it NOW and then waste 10 weeks on adding PR-fluff and whatnot for the people that are to mentally challenged to read the minutes themselves.
For me this sounds like a cover-up because you know that there will be a new **** storm if you release the minutes. So now you're trying to apply some reverse-correct info-speak so you can release faked minutes that will avert the **** storm.
That is the only explanation for keeping the minutes under lock and key for 3 months and trying your good old "let it all blow over" tactic.
Companies like this make we want to puke. You went from a decent company I could respect to the kind of scum I only would have expected in banking and/or oil trade.
Way to go. |
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Poonut
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Posted - 2011.09.06 14:16:00 -
[231]
Believe in Upmost Malicious Pride |
Trolls Troll
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Posted - 2011.09.06 14:21:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Poonut Believe in Upmost Malicious Pride
Good Sir, Lulz to you for such an awesome name |
Niraia
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
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Posted - 2011.09.06 14:22:00 -
[233]
Could you post the un-edited version now, since it's ready, then release your official one later when you're done? :) |
Smoking Blunts
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Posted - 2011.09.06 14:35:00 -
[234]
the CSM need to draw lots. the looser should publish the unedited minutes and take one for the team.
this is a farce, the CSM is elected to represent the players by the players, its not ment to be an extention of CCP's PR deparment. if thats what CCP want, remove the CSM and forget about the idea.
MINUTES |
Caldari Acolyte
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Posted - 2011.09.06 14:44:00 -
[235]
I don't think i've seen this much intensional foot dragging since the US federal trade commission subpoenaed Enron for there financial records. Lets see which CCP lacky attempts to throw another curve ball at us here in this thread. Any bets as to who? |
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