| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
   |
Posted - 2005.03.03 04:48:00 -
[1]
Right. The Zealot was obviously, OBVIOUSLY built around the heavy pulse laser. Anyone attempting to argue this inarguable truth has brain worms. It has lots of lowslots, it has very few offensive slots for a heavy assault, it has no drones or missiles. It is expected to be a gank ship.
The pending pulse laser nerf hits it right in the sack. How about a fifth turret slot or a drone bay to offset the tragic loss of effectiveness this ship is sure to experience? Radio crystals doing less damage, pulse lasers given the Bobbitt! Save the Zealot!
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 04:49:00 -
[2]
You can still gank with it, just not at stupid ranges. Only slightly stupid ranges.
|
Nomen Nescio
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 04:56:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 03/03/2005 04:58:20
No1 enjoyed "one gun for all ranges you need" but amarr. Gank all you want but not at range of rails and arty.
Or you think ishtar is so easy to fly with drones hit by enemy smart bombs, or cerberus with missles arriving at the enemy location after he warped out?
|
Xeris
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 05:00:00 -
[4]
Well, you do get a 5% optimal bonus per heavy assault level, so its not a huge deal. If you want more range, go with the heavy beams.
Too lazy to get my sig changed |
Meridius
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 06:05:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 06:18:51
The Zealot was designed with Heavy Pulse in there "unbalanced" form.
You think maybe thats why it only has 4 turrets and NO dronebay and the same cap as a freaking minmatar ship?
A deimos has 1 less lowslot, 100more cap,1 more highslots, 1 more turret point and 1000m3 of drones.
Yeah, balanced right
You're all zombies, nobody ever had anything against heavy pulse. The very word pulse was demonized by the god damned megapulse.
Somone even mentions the word pulse and OMG NOES NERF NERF.
________________________________________________________
|
Meridius
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 06:18:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 06:18:19
.
________________________________________________________
|
Zyrla Bladestorm
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 07:43:00 -
[7]
The medium and large guns are derived from the small, any problem that exists with the large will also be in the medium and small, albeit in a less extreme way - but at the same time any changes that effect the large will also effect the medium and small - but in a less extreme way.
Personally I fly a vagabond - which is built around autocannons, it can use five turrets, each of which has less range and does a bit less damage then a heavy pulse, leading to the DoT of both ships being comparable with the low slots stuffed full of damage mods. The Vagabond has the worst cap bar none and lower PG by about 200 then the zealot. (Before someone brings up it can use a launcher too : it can, but a heavy launchers DoT with no bonuses is about a quarter of an autocannons DoT with them)
As to the Zealot being shredded, I dont think so : radio crystals dont do more damage now then any other long range crystal its true, but microwave are the exact equal of the other races long range charges (buffed) and the middle few previously useless crystals got buffed up also, while the guns themselves only had there range brought into less extreme bounds. Try it out and experiment before screaming maybe  
As to sheer number of weapons : I would probably support a well reasoned argument posted after thorough testing of the changes to add another turret point.
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
|
Lorth
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 08:03:00 -
[8]
You did take into account the new ammo changes.
Meaning lasers have more options, and more damageing ammo at some ranges didn't you?
Did you also consider that its only a optimal range hit? Meaning you can still do the same amount of damage though at a smaller range? I'll give you the hit to the long range cyrstalls, but surely you must have looked at the graph and saw the sorry state they were in before right? And surly you compared them with the long range ammo of other races as well right? You at least took into account the typical fitting of such a ship compared to its compition right? Maybe cap use, we both agree that should enter the discustion shouldn't it?
Whould you consider perhaps giveing a reason behind your claim the the Zealot is now nerfed into oblivion? Perhaps you have been doing extensive tests? Maybe some math? Perhaps you have stats you would like to compare.
Or do you find it better to whine, with out actually stating any evidence or reasoning?
|
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 10:54:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm
The medium and large guns are derived from the small, any problem that exists with the large will also be in the medium and small, albeit in a less extreme way - but at the same time any changes that effect the large will also effect the medium and small - but in a less extreme way.
No offence, but I wish people would stop repeating this crap. It just shows a profound misunderstanding of frig combat. What is a problem with large guns, may not be a problem at all with small guns. In fact, fixing the 'problem' may make the small guns useless. This is what has happened in this case.
MegaPulse now have an operational range of around 5-40km. This is less than before, but still extremely usefull.
Dual Light Pulse now have an operational range of between 2-10km. This is entirely useless compared to before. You can now use pulses to stay at the edge of web-range and do even crappier damage than before, or you can switch to multi-freqs and accept that your gun is now a poor man's blaster. Of course, staying on the edge of web range is no use, you need to be able to stay out of it.
In summary
Combat does not scale linearly between size classes, so why should gun stats?
----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Altai Saker
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 10:57:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Altai Saker on 03/03/2005 10:59:11
Originally by: Julien Derida
Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm
The medium and large guns are derived from the small, any problem that exists with the large will also be in the medium and small, albeit in a less extreme way - but at the same time any changes that effect the large will also effect the medium and small - but in a less extreme way.
No offence, but I wish people would stop repeating this crap. It just shows a profound misunderstanding of frig combat. What is a problem with large guns, may not be a problem at all with small guns. In fact, fixing the 'problem' may make the small guns useless. This is what has happened in this case.
MegaPulse now have an operational range of around 5-40km. This is less than before, but still extremely usefull.
Dual Light Pulse now have an operational range of between 2-10km. This is entirely useless compared to before. You can now use pulses to stay at the edge of web-range and do even crappier damage than before, or you can switch to multi-freqs and accept that your gun is now a poor man's blaster. Of course, staying on the edge of web range is no use, you need to be able to stay out of it.
In summary
Combat does not scale linearly between size classes, so why should gun stats?
quoted for ******* emphasis - THIS CHANGE KILLS AMARR FRIG GUNS!!
|
Thanit
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 11:05:00 -
[11]
tbh, with staying out of web range and all, wouldnt the new webs after EW changes kill you as well then ?
I mean, webbing at anywhere < 36km ?
It's gonna screw up EVERYONE's frig tactics.
Longer range frig combat will be much mroe viable after this. And yes beams should do relatively well there since they actually work quite well compared to rails ro howitzers.
|
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 11:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Julien Derida on 03/03/2005 11:18:33
Combat above 20km is not viable on anything but Caldari Interceptors due to low targeting ranges.
----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Thanit
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 11:24:00 -
[13]
Yes, thats an issue.
What i meant however, is that pulse lasers arent the only small things up for upheaval soon.
But I agree now that it seems that amarr frigs need a tad more grid. (cant give beam less grid use cause that would carry over to large ones which are fine for grid)
|
Toran Mehtar
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 11:33:00 -
[14]
I fly a zealot and I don't really see the problem. If you think that being able to take out interceptors in a volley or two @ 50km with pulse lasers was how it should operate, then you have bigger problems than worrying about a range nerf.
I will admit that the zealot, for a tech II ship, is very limited in flexibility. Having no missiles or drones can make life very difficult. I don't see, however, that this is especially worse after a range nerf, and I don't remember anybody complaining before.
Zealot is fine, not uber all the time, but great at what it does.
|
Altai Saker
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 11:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Thanit
tbh, with staying out of web range and all, wouldnt the new webs after EW changes kill you as well then ?
I mean, webbing at anywhere < 36km ?
It's gonna screw up EVERYONE's frig tactics.
Longer range frig combat will be much mroe viable after this. And yes beams should do relatively well there since they actually work quite well compared to rails ro howitzers.
lol, gonna screw up tactics? what are you smoking, its gonna have crows/taranis be the dominators.
Claws only have 1 midslot, when it is wasted on webbing adn the targets takes heavy dmg it will warp.
Crow will orbit you at close to 30km while you are webbed releasing volleys of missiles then it will close for the scram and you will die...
Taranis will dual web and hope the other guy isnt doing the same.
|
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 11:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Thanit
(cant give beam less grid use cause that would carry over to large ones which are fine for grid)
This is the whole problem! Why should we carry changes between size classes and break perfectly balanced things in the process? This is why the Pulse nerf should apply to large guns only.
----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
LUKEC
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 11:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Meridius
Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 06:18:51
The Zealot was designed with Heavy Pulse in there "unbalanced" form.
You think maybe thats why it only has 4 turrets and NO dronebay and the same cap as a freaking minmatar ship?
A deimos has 1 less lowslot, 100more cap,1 more highslots, 1 more turret point and 1000m3 of drones.
Yeah, balanced right
And range of <10km, lowest speed & only ion blasters...
Zealot has: 4x heavy pulseII, med nosf, ab, t2 aru without any problems...
You're all zombies, nobody ever had anything against heavy pulse. The very word pulse was demonized by the god damned megapulse.
Somone even mentions the word pulse and OMG NOES NERF NERF.
|
ZelRox
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 11:49:00 -
[18]
Eeeek, im training my skills to be able to fly zealot, bah, i guess heavy beams should work fine with some heat sinks.
----------------------
I wanna tuc tuc .. |
Question2
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 12:29:00 -
[19]
Erm why do people think small/med pulses were balanced?
Comparing them with autocanons/blasters show that small/med pulses were still clearly superior.
Just like beams are still clearly superior to rails or howitzers.
I mean,have they ever looked at the stats?Christ.
|
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 12:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Question2
Erm why do people think small/med pulses were balanced?
Comparing them with autocanons/blasters show that small/med pulses were still clearly superior.
Just like beams are still clearly superior to rails or howitzers.
I mean,have they ever looked at the stats?Christ.
I'd appreciate it if you'd present a proper argument.
----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Question2
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 12:49:00 -
[21]
Its such an obvious fact that i dont know why you are disagreeing with it.
|
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 13:00:00 -
[22]
If what your saying is such an obvious fact, why are you unable to present a argument to back it up?
----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Papermate
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 13:14:00 -
[23]
Comparing autocannons to pulses does not make much sense, because they are nowhere near the same type of gun.
"Master of Papercuts" |
The Cosmopolite
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 13:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Julien Derida
If what your saying is such an obvious fact, why are you unable to present a argument to back it up?
He doesn't need to, the graph that is right at the top of CCP Hammer's pulse laser post tells you all you need to know.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction - Executor CEO: Jade Constantine |
xenorx
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 13:54:00 -
[25]
I am currently training amarr cruiser to lvl 5 so I can get into the amarr HAC's. I am not to worried about the range changes to the pulses really. The main target of the pulse nerf is going to be the megapulse. I doubt if CCP is going to make radical changes to the medium and small pulses anyway. In fact I dont recall seeing anything from CCP stating what they are going to do yet in concrete so it is a bit early to run around crying that the sky is falling.
|
Istvaan Shogaatsu
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 14:14:00 -
[26]
Anyone attempting to state autocannons are crap compared to HPLs should stay well clear of Uuve Savisaalo's Muninn. 726dps anyone?
|
The Cosmopolite
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 14:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Anyone attempting to state autocannons are crap compared to HPLs should stay well clear of Uuve Savisaalo's Muninn. 726dps anyone?
Is such a special case (not that I know the details) relevant?
I give you: Zealot with modulated HPLs, multifreqs, a whole load of skadis/T2 HS in low - better or worse? I don't know off the top of my head plus you have to factor skills in. But so what? The issue is the baseline, not the uber setup of a vet.
Anyway, time to point something out from CCP Hammer's post:
Originally by: "CCP Hammer"
It's worth noting at this point that the guns are all factors of their smaller siblings so if the Mega Pulse is out of Balance with the 800mm autocannon then the same must hold true for the medium and small guns. Some people might need to read that last sentence twice.
The last sentence is good advice because if Hammer is making the point that I think he is making there can be no 'fix only the megapulse and leave the rest alone'.
I make no judgement as to the rights or wrongs of that.
(Anyway, the whole game is going to be turned upside down by all the recent/forthcoming changes so I personally am past worrying about this factor or that factor... )
The Cos
The Star Fraction - Executor CEO: Jade Constantine |
Papermate
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:17:00 -
[28]
wow I cant wait for these changes, especially since i just started using ammarr HAC's
"Master of Papercuts" |
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:22:00 -
[29]
At the end of the day, when comparing Statistics you need to remember that an optimal of 8km is EXACTLY AS GOOD as an optimal of 3km: Web is Web is Web, once webbed, you can choose your range.
All Amarr ships get one less bonus than all other ships.
Drop the ******* stupid Cap bonus and give all our gank ships dmg bonus's like their counterparts.
THEN AND ONLY THEN will the graphs show reality.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority -
ShinRa
|
Damajink
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Meridius
Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 06:18:51
The Zealot was designed with Heavy Pulse in there "unbalanced" form.
You think maybe thats why it only has 4 turrets and NO dronebay and the same cap as a freaking minmatar ship?
A deimos has 1 less lowslot, 100more cap,1 more highslots, 1 more turret point and 1000m3 of drones.
Yeah, balanced right
You're all zombies, nobody ever had anything against heavy pulse. The very word pulse was demonized by the god damned megapulse.
Somone even mentions the word pulse and OMG NOES NERF NERF.
Yep, frig and cruiser guns did not need changing.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |