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Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 04:48:00 - [1] Right. The Zealot was obviously, OBVIOUSLY built around the heavy pulse laser. Anyone attempting to argue this inarguable truth has brain worms. It has lots of lowslots, it has very few offensive slots for a heavy assault, it has no drones or missiles. It is expected to be a gank ship. The pending pulse laser nerf hits it right in the sack. How about a fifth turret slot or a drone bay to offset the tragic loss of effectiveness this ship is sure to experience? Radio crystals doing less damage, pulse lasers given the Bobbitt! Save the Zealot!
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.03 04:49:00 - [2] You can still gank with it, just not at stupid ranges. Only slightly stupid ranges.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.03.03 04:56:00 - [3] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 03/03/2005 04:58:20 No1 enjoyed "one gun for all ranges you need" but amarr. Gank all you want but not at range of rails and arty. Or you think ishtar is so easy to fly with drones hit by enemy smart bombs, or cerberus with missles arriving at the enemy location after he warped out?
Xeris	Posted - 2005.03.03 05:00:00 - [4] Well, you do get a 5% optimal bonus per heavy assault level, so its not a huge deal. If you want more range, go with the heavy beams. Too lazy to get my sig changed
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.03 06:05:00 - [5] Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 06:18:51 The Zealot was designed with Heavy Pulse in there "unbalanced" form. You think maybe thats why it only has 4 turrets and NO dronebay and the same cap as a freaking minmatar ship? A deimos has 1 less lowslot, 100more cap,1 more highslots, 1 more turret point and 1000m3 of drones. Yeah, balanced right You're all zombies, nobody ever had anything against heavy pulse. The very word pulse was demonized by the god damned megapulse. Somone even mentions the word pulse and OMG NOES NERF NERF. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.03 06:18:00 - [6] Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 06:18:19 . ________________________________________________________
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.03.03 07:43:00 - [7] The medium and large guns are derived from the small, any problem that exists with the large will also be in the medium and small, albeit in a less extreme way - but at the same time any changes that effect the large will also effect the medium and small - but in a less extreme way. Personally I fly a vagabond - which is built around autocannons, it can use five turrets, each of which has less range and does a bit less damage then a heavy pulse, leading to the DoT of both ships being comparable with the low slots stuffed full of damage mods. The Vagabond has the worst cap bar none and lower PG by about 200 then the zealot. (Before someone brings up it can use a launcher too : it can, but a heavy launchers DoT with no bonuses is about a quarter of an autocannons DoT with them) As to the Zealot being shredded, I dont think so : radio crystals dont do more damage now then any other long range crystal its true, but microwave are the exact equal of the other races long range charges (buffed) and the middle few previously useless crystals got buffed up also, while the guns themselves only had there range brought into less extreme bounds. Try it out and experiment before screaming maybe As to sheer number of weapons : I would probably support a well reasoned argument posted after thorough testing of the changes to add another turret point. . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Lorth	Posted - 2005.03.03 08:03:00 - [8] You did take into account the new ammo changes. Meaning lasers have more options, and more damageing ammo at some ranges didn't you? Did you also consider that its only a optimal range hit? Meaning you can still do the same amount of damage though at a smaller range? I'll give you the hit to the long range cyrstalls, but surely you must have looked at the graph and saw the sorry state they were in before right? And surly you compared them with the long range ammo of other races as well right? You at least took into account the typical fitting of such a ship compared to its compition right? Maybe cap use, we both agree that should enter the discustion shouldn't it? Whould you consider perhaps giveing a reason behind your claim the the Zealot is now nerfed into oblivion? Perhaps you have been doing extensive tests? Maybe some math? Perhaps you have stats you would like to compare. Or do you find it better to whine, with out actually stating any evidence or reasoning?
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 10:54:00 - [9] Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm The medium and large guns are derived from the small, any problem that exists with the large will also be in the medium and small, albeit in a less extreme way - but at the same time any changes that effect the large will also effect the medium and small - but in a less extreme way. No offence, but I wish people would stop repeating this crap. It just shows a profound misunderstanding of frig combat. What is a problem with large guns, may not be a problem at all with small guns. In fact, fixing the 'problem' may make the small guns useless. This is what has happened in this case. MegaPulse now have an operational range of around 5-40km. This is less than before, but still extremely usefull. Dual Light Pulse now have an operational range of between 2-10km. This is entirely useless compared to before. You can now use pulses to stay at the edge of web-range and do even crappier damage than before, or you can switch to multi-freqs and accept that your gun is now a poor man's blaster. Of course, staying on the edge of web range is no use, you need to be able to stay out of it. In summary Combat does not scale linearly between size classes, so why should gun stats? ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.03.03 10:57:00 - [10] Edited by: Altai Saker on 03/03/2005 10:59:11 Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm The medium and large guns are derived from the small, any problem that exists with the large will also be in the medium and small, albeit in a less extreme way - but at the same time any changes that effect the large will also effect the medium and small - but in a less extreme way. No offence, but I wish people would stop repeating this crap. It just shows a profound misunderstanding of frig combat. What is a problem with large guns, may not be a problem at all with small guns. In fact, fixing the 'problem' may make the small guns useless. This is what has happened in this case. MegaPulse now have an operational range of around 5-40km. This is less than before, but still extremely usefull. Dual Light Pulse now have an operational range of between 2-10km. This is entirely useless compared to before. You can now use pulses to stay at the edge of web-range and do even crappier damage than before, or you can switch to multi-freqs and accept that your gun is now a poor man's blaster. Of course, staying on the edge of web range is no use, you need to be able to stay out of it. In summary Combat does not scale linearly between size classes, so why should gun stats? quoted for ******* emphasis - THIS CHANGE KILLS AMARR FRIG GUNS!!
Thanit	Posted - 2005.03.03 11:05:00 - [11] tbh, with staying out of web range and all, wouldnt the new webs after EW changes kill you as well then ? I mean, webbing at anywhere < 36km ? It's gonna screw up EVERYONE's frig tactics. Longer range frig combat will be much mroe viable after this. And yes beams should do relatively well there since they actually work quite well compared to rails ro howitzers.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 11:18:00 - [12] Edited by: Julien Derida on 03/03/2005 11:18:33 Combat above 20km is not viable on anything but Caldari Interceptors due to low targeting ranges. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Thanit	Posted - 2005.03.03 11:24:00 - [13] Yes, thats an issue. What i meant however, is that pulse lasers arent the only small things up for upheaval soon. But I agree now that it seems that amarr frigs need a tad more grid. (cant give beam less grid use cause that would carry over to large ones which are fine for grid)
Toran Mehtar	Posted - 2005.03.03 11:33:00 - [14] I fly a zealot and I don't really see the problem. If you think that being able to take out interceptors in a volley or two @ 50km with pulse lasers was how it should operate, then you have bigger problems than worrying about a range nerf. I will admit that the zealot, for a tech II ship, is very limited in flexibility. Having no missiles or drones can make life very difficult. I don't see, however, that this is especially worse after a range nerf, and I don't remember anybody complaining before. Zealot is fine, not uber all the time, but great at what it does.
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.03.03 11:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Thanit tbh, with staying out of web range and all, wouldnt the new webs after EW changes kill you as well then ? I mean, webbing at anywhere < 36km ? It's gonna screw up EVERYONE's frig tactics. Longer range frig combat will be much mroe viable after this. And yes beams should do relatively well there since they actually work quite well compared to rails ro howitzers. lol, gonna screw up tactics? what are you smoking, its gonna have crows/taranis be the dominators. Claws only have 1 midslot, when it is wasted on webbing adn the targets takes heavy dmg it will warp. Crow will orbit you at close to 30km while you are webbed releasing volleys of missiles then it will close for the scram and you will die... Taranis will dual web and hope the other guy isnt doing the same.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 11:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Thanit (cant give beam less grid use cause that would carry over to large ones which are fine for grid) This is the whole problem! Why should we carry changes between size classes and break perfectly balanced things in the process? This is why the Pulse nerf should apply to large guns only. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.03.03 11:39:00 - [17] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 06:18:51 The Zealot was designed with Heavy Pulse in there "unbalanced" form. You think maybe thats why it only has 4 turrets and NO dronebay and the same cap as a freaking minmatar ship? A deimos has 1 less lowslot, 100more cap,1 more highslots, 1 more turret point and 1000m3 of drones. Yeah, balanced right And range of <10km, lowest speed & only ion blasters... Zealot has: 4x heavy pulseII, med nosf, ab, t2 aru without any problems... You're all zombies, nobody ever had anything against heavy pulse. The very word pulse was demonized by the god damned megapulse. Somone even mentions the word pulse and OMG NOES NERF NERF.
ZelRox	Posted - 2005.03.03 11:49:00 - [18] Eeeek, im training my skills to be able to fly zealot, bah, i guess heavy beams should work fine with some heat sinks. ---------------------- I wanna tuc tuc ..
Question2	Posted - 2005.03.03 12:29:00 - [19] Erm why do people think small/med pulses were balanced? Comparing them with autocanons/blasters show that small/med pulses were still clearly superior. Just like beams are still clearly superior to rails or howitzers. I mean,have they ever looked at the stats?Christ.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 12:39:00 - [20] Originally by: Question2 Erm why do people think small/med pulses were balanced? Comparing them with autocanons/blasters show that small/med pulses were still clearly superior. Just like beams are still clearly superior to rails or howitzers. I mean,have they ever looked at the stats?Christ. I'd appreciate it if you'd present a proper argument. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Question2	Posted - 2005.03.03 12:49:00 - [21] Its such an obvious fact that i dont know why you are disagreeing with it.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 13:00:00 - [22] If what your saying is such an obvious fact, why are you unable to present a argument to back it up? ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Papermate	Posted - 2005.03.03 13:14:00 - [23] Comparing autocannons to pulses does not make much sense, because they are nowhere near the same type of gun. "Master of Papercuts"
The Cosmopolite	Posted - 2005.03.03 13:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Julien Derida If what your saying is such an obvious fact, why are you unable to present a argument to back it up? He doesn't need to, the graph that is right at the top of CCP Hammer's pulse laser post tells you all you need to know. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction - Executor CEO: Jade Constantine
xenorx	Posted - 2005.03.03 13:54:00 - [25] I am currently training amarr cruiser to lvl 5 so I can get into the amarr HAC's. I am not to worried about the range changes to the pulses really. The main target of the pulse nerf is going to be the megapulse. I doubt if CCP is going to make radical changes to the medium and small pulses anyway. In fact I dont recall seeing anything from CCP stating what they are going to do yet in concrete so it is a bit early to run around crying that the sky is falling.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 14:14:00 - [26] Anyone attempting to state autocannons are crap compared to HPLs should stay well clear of Uuve Savisaalo's Muninn. 726dps anyone?
The Cosmopolite	Posted - 2005.03.03 14:57:00 - [27] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Anyone attempting to state autocannons are crap compared to HPLs should stay well clear of Uuve Savisaalo's Muninn. 726dps anyone? Is such a special case (not that I know the details) relevant? I give you: Zealot with modulated HPLs, multifreqs, a whole load of skadis/T2 HS in low - better or worse? I don't know off the top of my head plus you have to factor skills in. But so what? The issue is the baseline, not the uber setup of a vet. Anyway, time to point something out from CCP Hammer's post: Originally by: "CCP Hammer" It's worth noting at this point that the guns are all factors of their smaller siblings so if the Mega Pulse is out of Balance with the 800mm autocannon then the same must hold true for the medium and small guns. Some people might need to read that last sentence twice. The last sentence is good advice because if Hammer is making the point that I think he is making there can be no 'fix only the megapulse and leave the rest alone'. I make no judgement as to the rights or wrongs of that. (Anyway, the whole game is going to be turned upside down by all the recent/forthcoming changes so I personally am past worrying about this factor or that factor... ) The Cos The Star Fraction - Executor CEO: Jade Constantine
Papermate	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:17:00 - [28] wow I cant wait for these changes, especially since i just started using ammarr HAC's "Master of Papercuts"
Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:22:00 - [29] At the end of the day, when comparing Statistics you need to remember that an optimal of 8km is EXACTLY AS GOOD as an optimal of 3km: Web is Web is Web, once webbed, you can choose your range. All Amarr ships get one less bonus than all other ships. Drop the ***** stupid Cap bonus and give all our gank ships dmg bonus's like their counterparts. THEN AND ONLY THEN will the graphs show reality. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa**
Damajink	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 06:18:51 The Zealot was designed with Heavy Pulse in there "unbalanced" form. You think maybe thats why it only has 4 turrets and NO dronebay and the same cap as a freaking minmatar ship? A deimos has 1 less lowslot, 100more cap,1 more highslots, 1 more turret point and 1000m3 of drones. Yeah, balanced right You're all zombies, nobody ever had anything against heavy pulse. The very word pulse was demonized by the god damned megapulse. Somone even mentions the word pulse and OMG NOES NERF NERF. Yep, frig and cruiser guns did not need changing.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:26:00 - [31] Originally by: "CCP Hammer" It's worth noting at this point that the guns are all factors of their smaller siblings so if the Mega Pulse is out of Balance with the 800mm autocannon then the same must hold true for the medium and small guns. Some people might need to read that last sentence twice. Actually, thats a load of bull because the dynamics of cruiser and especially frigate combat are radically different to Battleship combat. Just to touch on that point: The massive operating range of megapulses matters more for battleships than medium pulses operating range matters on frigates because the time it takes a battleship to cover that distance keeps it open to effective megapulse fire for a long time. The speed that frigates and cruisers move at means that the target is much harder to keep in the effective operating range. The other point that no-one has touched on is the ships themselves: Only the Armageddon can carry just as many guns as the other ships in its class. The Cruiser and frigate class vessels which get a DoT bonus have less offensive slots than similar ships from other races. You bring the Medium and Heavy pulse into direct line with Hybrids and Projectiles, and you'll have to give amarr cruisers and frigs more turret points.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:01:00 - [32] Another reason why Hammer is wrong, is that he simply neglected to acknowledge that lasers do shield damage. They choke against armour, especially laser tanked armour the likes of which I fly on my ships.
Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:05:00 - [33] mmmm pure EM vs armor. Tasty. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Question2	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Julien Derida If what your saying is such an obvious fact, why are you unable to present a argument to back it up? Because i dont need to The stats of beams are ingame.The stats of rails and howitzers are ingame.Pull them up,compare them,and anyone can see beams are superior. I know you want me to login or go to some fansite just to pick a random beam/rail/howitzer comparison for you to see,but....eh. im busy.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:11:00 - [35] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Julien Derida If what your saying is such an obvious fact, why are you unable to present a argument to back it up? He doesn't need to, the graph that is right at the top of CCP Hammer's pulse laser post tells you all you need to know. The Cosmopolite It most certainly DOES NOT tell me everything I need to know. It is a highly misleading graph that amplifies the pulses strength and negates the other two guns strengths. Nobody in their right mind fits Iron ammo on blasters, because blasters rely of their falloff to hit rather than their optimal. The negative optimal modifiier from short-range ammo consequently has less of an effect on blasters, as does the positivie modifier from long-range ammo. Pulses have a decent optimal but very little falloff, therefore using long-range ammo with them makes more sense. As I said before, a comparison of small Pulses with MF vs Blasters with AM would be far fairer. A comparison using medium range ammo would be useful too. You should look more closely at what the graph is telling you before you draw conclusions. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:14:00 - [36] Why is everyone still unable to provide a decent argument as to why small pulses are overpowered rather than whining about stats? Stats are not the only thing that matter. It is the interaction of stats with tactics that matters. If small pulses are overpowered then why is the Crusader still far less popular than the Taranis, Crow and arguably the Claw? ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Question2	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:33:00 - [37] "Stats dont matter" i stopped reading after this line. Ridiculous,simply ridiculous..... I want my 25x damage mod dual 150mm rails now with an optimal of 60km and tracking of 0.3 plz.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:39:00 - [38] Originally by: Question2 "Stats dont matter" i stopped reading after this line. Ridiculous,simply ridiculous..... I want my 25x damage mod dual 150mm rails now with an optimal of 60km and tracking of 0.3 plz. If you could actually read, you would have seen that I said "Stats are not the only thing that matter". There's a big difference between that and what you think I said. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
xenorx	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:57:00 - [39] Originally by: xenorx I am currently training amarr cruiser to lvl 5 so I can get into the amarr HAC's. I am not to worried about the range changes to the pulses really. The main target of the pulse nerf is going to be the megapulse. I doubt if CCP is going to make radical changes to the medium and small pulses anyway. In fact I dont recall seeing anything from CCP stating what they are going to do yet in concrete so it is a bit early to run around crying that the sky is falling. I posted that before seeing Hammers post up top. Im gonna grab my chicken suit now and start running around. "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" I cant believe they are gonna toast all lasers from the looks of things. Guess all Amarr pilots are gonna have to dig out their notes from back late '03 when lasers were useless and rethink our set ups.
Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.03 17:11:00 - [40] Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Question2 "Stats dont matter" i stopped reading after this line. Ridiculous,simply ridiculous..... I want my 25x damage mod dual 150mm rails now with an optimal of 60km and tracking of 0.3 plz. If you could actually read, you would have seen that I said "Stats are not the only thing that matter". There's a big difference between that and what you think I said. And what you really mean is that there are a lot More stats that matter than those found on the "attributes" page of a weapon. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 17:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Lallante And what you really mean is that there are a lot More stats that matter than those found on the "attributes" page of a weapon. Amongst other things yes, it's a shame most people don't read what others post ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
CCP Hammer	Posted - 2005.03.03 17:18:00 - [42] Here is a graph of a Zealot vs a Deimos vs a Muninn. The Zealot is fitted with 4 Pulse laser I and 3 Heat Sink II. The Deimos is fitted with 5 Ion Blaster I and 3 Magnetic Field Stabilizer II. The Muninn is fitted with 5 425mm Autocannon I, 2 Heavy Launchers (that's why there is a weird step in the graph) and 3 Gyrostabilizer II. The Red line is the current Zealot on TQ and the yellow line is after the nerf. This is with all skills at 5. It's still possible to find a range where the zealot out performs the other heavy assault cruisers. The Zealot is superior at over 10km. Is it overnerfed now? Was it overpowered before? I'm still testing it but I'm able to beat the Deimos and Muninn if we don't start at point blank range. Maybe my skills are just better than TomB's skills but I don't know if he would agree.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 17:29:00 - [43] Just a small quibble. Shouldn't the Deimos be using Neutrons rather than Ions for a fair comparison? ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.03.03 17:44:00 - [44] Originally by: Julien Derida Just a small quibble. Shouldn't the Deimos be using Neutrons rather than Ions for a fair comparison? No, Deimos can't fit neutrons as easily as Zealot can fit heavy pulse. Deimos power grid with level 5 engineering: 8601.25= 1075 5 neutron blasters: 2255 = 1125 Zealot power grid: 10901.25 = 1362.5 4 heavy pulse: 2104 = 840
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.03 17:52:00 - [45] Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 17:52:59 Originally by: CCP Hammer Here is a graph of a Zealot vs a Deimos vs a Muninn. The Zealot is fitted with 4 Pulse laser I and 3 Heat Sink II. The Deimos is fitted with 5 Ion Blaster I and 3 Magnetic Field Stabilizer II. The Muninn is fitted with 5 425mm Autocannon I, 2 Heavy Launchers (that's why there is a weird step in the graph) and 3 Gyrostabilizer II. The Red line is the current Zealot on TQ and the yellow line is after the nerf. This is with all skills at 5. It's still possible to find a range where the zealot out performs the other heavy assault cruisers. The Zealot is superior at over 10km. Is it overnerfed now? Was it overpowered before? I'm still testing it but I'm able to beat the Deimos and Muninn if we don't start at point blank range. Maybe my skills are just better than TomB's skills but I don't know if he would agree. Here is why this graph is does not matter.. 1. Where is the 1000m3 of drones from a deimos or the 500m3 of a munin taken into account? 2. Where is the fact that a deimos with it's drones and a munin with it's drones + heavy missles have excellent frigate defense. In a Zealot, if you don't have a web you can get ****** over by inties very easily. I'm really starting to hate graphs since they in no way take into account ship to ship dynamics. They seem more like troll food to me. ________________________________________________________
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.03.03 17:55:00 - [46] Even with drones, which are not always used cause they are cumbersome, Zealot looks way more powerful. I'd fly it over the other ships anyday, even after it's nerfed.
qrac	Posted - 2005.03.03 17:57:00 - [47] Originally by: Meridius Here is why this graph is does not matter.. 1. Where is the 1000m3 of drones from a deimos or the 500m3 of a munin taken into account? 2. Where is the fact that a deimos with it's drones and a munin with it's drones + heavy missles have excellent frigate defense. In a Zealot, if you don't have a web you can get ****** over by inties very easily. I'm really starting to hate graphs since they in no way take into account ship to ship dynamics. They seem more like troll food to me. word! dear hammer pls redo your graph accounting for drones too. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
qrac	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:03:00 - [48] Edited by: qrac on 03/03/2005 18:04:48 Originally by: Face Lifter Even with drones, which are not always used cause they are cumbersome, Zealot looks way more powerful. I'd fly it over the other ships anyday, even after it's nerfed. with drones the deimos reaches more than 400 on that graph... i think that says it all. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:03:00 - [49] Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 03/03/2005 18:07:33 Originally by: Meridius I'm really starting to hate graphs since they in no way take into account ship to ship dynamics. They seem more like troll food to me. Yeah, I'm really starting to hate the graphs too, since theyre not showing what I demand to be true, so they must be horribly biased. Oh wait, never mind. Theyre showing what I've said all along. In case youre interested, 10 medium drones with maxed drone skills give ~100 DpS once they reach target. This moves the point where the demios is doing more damage then the zealot from 7.5k to about 10k. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
CCP Hammer	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:06:00 - [50] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 17:52:59 Originally by: CCP Hammer Here is a graph of a Zealot vs a Deimos vs a Muninn. The Zealot is fitted with 4 Pulse laser I and 3 Heat Sink II. The Deimos is fitted with 5 Ion Blaster I and 3 Magnetic Field Stabilizer II. The Muninn is fitted with 5 425mm Autocannon I, 2 Heavy Launchers (that's why there is a weird step in the graph) and 3 Gyrostabilizer II. The Red line is the current Zealot on TQ and the yellow line is after the nerf. This is with all skills at 5. [IMG]<snip> It's still possible to find a range where the zealot out performs the other heavy assault cruisers. The Zealot is superior at over 10km. Is it overnerfed now? Was it overpowered before? I'm still testing it but I'm able to beat the Deimos and Muninn if we don't start at point blank range. Maybe my skills are just better than TomB's skills but I don't know if he would agree. Here is why this graph is does not matter.. 1. Where is the 1000m3 of drones from a deimos or the 500m3 of a munin taken into account? 2. Where is the fact that a deimos with it's drones and a munin with it's drones + heavy missles have excellent frigate defense. In a Zealot, if you don't have a web you can get ****** over by inties very easily. I'm really starting to hate graphs since they in no way take into account ship to ship dynamics. They seem more like troll food to me. I can add drones to the graph. I was actually thinking about adding some drones back to the zealot that got taken out during the initial balance testing. The thing is I'm still able to beat these other ships in combat. So not only do the graphs show that the zealot isn't totally worthless and no one will ever use it again but my real world testing shows me that the ship is still viable.
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:07:00 - [51] Originally by: CCP Hammer I can add drones to the graph. I was actually thinking about adding some drones back to the zealot that got taken out during the initial balance testing. The thing is I'm still able to beat these other ships in combat. So not only do the graphs show that the zealot isn't totally worthless and no one will ever use it again but my real world testing shows me that the ship is still viable. Give it a 500m3 drone bay for light drone frigate defense. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Jennae	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:19:00 - [52] ugg. always the same arguement. The deimos can only hit to about 8km. It SHOULD do more damage at that range. The zealot, while doing a slight bit less damage, is MUCH more multipurpose. It can hit from a much longer range. Even with drones this is clearly balanced. If you can stay 10km away from the deimos, the 10 medium drones (or 7m, 1h) won't hurt you much, and the guns won't touch ya. Also, not many deimos' can run 5x heavy ion blasters since they also need a MWD (150 grid) and a repairer (175grid). (and you pretty much need a nossie (175-200mw) to keep the guns/tank going) *The zealot has ~300 more grid, doesn't need a MWD, and the guns only use 840 powergrid. that's 500 power grid left over. MORE than enough to mount 2 repairers, and with 1 PDU, you can toss a cap injector on and go full gank and have all the cap you want from charges. and that stuff up there isn't what made me riled up. It's the guy who said "NOW DUAL PULSES CAN'T BE USED OUT OF WEB RANGE" ok. Buddy. take a tissue, blow your nose and think about what you said. Have you EVER used any of the other races close range weapons? optimal under 800m? cmon. the pulses are supposed to be the equivalent to blasters and autocannons. if you want to stay out of web range, use beams! Just like the other races have to use rail/howies.
Arud	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:25:00 - [53] Originally by: Jennae ugg. always the same arguement. The deimos can only hit to about 8km. It SHOULD do more damage at that range. The zealot, while doing a slight bit less damage, is MUCH more multipurpose. It can hit from a much longer range. Even with drones this is clearly balanced. If you can stay 10km away from the deimos, the 10 medium drones (or 7m, 1h) won't hurt you much, and the guns won't touch ya. Also, not many deimos' can run 5x heavy ion blasters since they also need a MWD (150 grid) and a repairer (175grid). (and you pretty much need a nossie (175-200mw) to keep the guns/tank going) *The zealot has ~300 more grid, doesn't need a MWD, and the guns only use 840 powergrid. that's 500 power grid left over. MORE than enough to mount 2 repairers, and with 1 PDU, you can toss a cap injector on and go full gank and have all the cap you want from charges. and that stuff up there isn't what made me riled up. It's the guy who said "NOW DUAL PULSES CAN'T BE USED OUT OF WEB RANGE" ok. Buddy. take a tissue, blow your nose and think about what you said. Have you EVER used any of the other races close range weapons? optimal under 800m? cmon. the pulses are supposed to be the equivalent to blasters and autocannons. if you want to stay out of web range, use beams! Just like the other races have to use rail/howies. If you are saying the Zealot doesnt need mwd then how can it stay out of range so the demios just doesnt simply own the zealot?
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:29:00 - [54] Edited by: Julien Derida on 03/03/2005 18:35:46 Originally by: Jennae and that stuff up there isn't what made me riled up. It's the guy who said "NOW DUAL PULSES CAN'T BE USED OUT OF WEB RANGE" ok. Buddy. take a tissue, blow your nose and think about what you said. Have you EVER used any of the other races close range weapons? optimal under 800m? cmon. the pulses are supposed to be the equivalent to blasters and autocannons. if you want to stay out of web range, use beams! Just like the other races have to use rail/howies. I am actually also an experienced Taranis pilot, which is why I am moaning. Pulses at close-range are inferior to blasters in both damage and tracking. They have a small range advantage which offsets their lack of falloff. Basically, there is no reason to use a Crusader with pulses at close-range if you can fly a Taranis with blasters. This has always been true, but before the Crusader also had the added flexibility of being able to engage outside of web range. Now it has lost that, what is the point of flying a Crusader over a Taranis? ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:46:00 - [55] Couple things: - The best short range cruiser laser is the HPL. The best short range cruiser blaster is the neutron. As long as the test uses ions it's skewed and makes the Deimos look less powerful than it is - doesn't matter what fitting dilemmas you may have, slap on some power diags or other fitting mods if you have to. That, or we might as well compare focused medium pulses to ions. - The Zealot's strength was its ability to reach out and touch someone from 40km away. It's losing most of that, both through the radio crystal nerf and the heavy pulse nerf. Deimos retains its battleship-shattering blaster firepower, blasters that track small up-close targets very nicely, but also gets a BUTTLOAD of drones - 10 mediums is the death of any interceptor, whereas a Zealot, only able to HIT interceptors with radios from 40km away and getting into deep doodoo against small targets that happen to be anywhere closer than that, has nothing. 500m3 drone bay? Not enough. I think that pending these changes, the Zealot should get a fifth turret slot in place of its utility slot, and a 500m3 drone bay on top of it. Its effective firepower will still be well below that of a Deimos.
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.03.03 19:00:00 - [56] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I think that pending these changes, the Zealot should get a fifth turret slot in place of its utility slot, and a 500m3 drone bay on top of it. Its effective firepower will still be well below that of a Deimos. So, because youre losing 28% range and 4 damage from your radio M/2 damage from microwave M... You want 25% better damage overall? Thats something akin to saying 'Herf 1400s by 10% damage and let the tempest easily fit 8 of them'. Can we forsee why that is in no way a balanced trade? Oh, and 10 light drones will rapidly and effectively clear an interceptor off you. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 19:06:00 - [57] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 03/03/2005 19:07:30 Originally by: RDM So, because youre losing 28% range and 4 damage from your radio M/2 damage from microwave M... You want 25% better damage overall? K, guy. Even if I did get my wish of a fifth turret slot, the thing would likely have to equip 3 heavy pulse and 2 focused medium pulse, because it wouldn't have the grid for five, MWD and an armor repairer. Even if I did get a fifth turret slot, the Zealot's firepower using multifrequency would be below that of a Deimos using blasters and uranium. Here's the kicker though: Since Deimos has that spiffy MWD bonus, it has more capacitor going to its armortanking ability - all the Zealot retains, is variable range punch. How can anyone possibly, possibly be blind enough to object.
Jennae	Posted - 2005.03.03 19:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu . As long as the test uses ions it's skewed and makes the Deimos look less powerful than it is - doesn't matter what fitting dilemmas you may have, slap on some power diags or other fitting mods if you have to. That, or we might as well compare focused medium pulses to ions. ... ... I think that pending these changes, the Zealot should get a fifth turret slot in place of its utility slot, and a 500m3 drone bay on top of it. Its effective firepower will still be well below that of a Deimos. First off. If you want to compare a diemos with neutrons, cut the base grid on the zealot to 850. then boost the powergrid of the heavy pulses to comparable levels. When you need 2 RCU II's to fit your HPLs. then we can talk. Most pilots can't even run all ions without 2 powergrid boosting items. I know I run 1 modal ion, 4 modal elecs just so I don't have to run any pdu or rcu's. a fifth turret slot and 1/2 the drone bay of the deimos? LOL. The fifth turret slot is already too much, and 500m3 of drones would just further push the power of the zealot. Look. every race has a combat HAC, and a utility HAC. Deimos, Isht Sac, Zealot Eagle, Cerb Muninn, Vaga -The combat ones are the get in close, fight till someone goes down. the others are the ones that require some strategy to use. With 7 low slots, we all know what the Zealot was meant to do, and with the insane grid, it can tank damn good too. [NOTE]some unrelated parts of the quoted post were removed, indicated by '...' yet nothing was changed
Nybbas	Posted - 2005.03.03 19:12:00 - [59] does a bit less damage at over 5X the range... :X... love ya istvaan please dont hit me anymore
Zanthiuse	Posted - 2005.03.03 19:13:00 - [60] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Couple things: - The best short range cruiser laser is the HPL. The best short range cruiser blaster is the neutron. As long as the test uses ions it's skewed and makes the Deimos look less powerful than it is - doesn't matter what fitting dilemmas you may have, slap on some power diags or other fitting mods if you have to. That, or we might as well compare focused medium pulses to ions. - The Zealot's strength was its ability to reach out and touch someone from 40km away. It's losing most of that, both through the radio crystal nerf and the heavy pulse nerf. Deimos retains its battleship-shattering blaster firepower, blasters that track small up-close targets very nicely, but also gets a BUTTLOAD of drones - 10 mediums is the death of any interceptor, whereas a Zealot, only able to HIT interceptors with radios from 40km away and getting into deep doodoo against small targets that happen to be anywhere closer than that, has nothing. 500m3 drone bay? Not enough. I think that pending these changes, the Zealot should get a fifth turret slot in place of its utility slot, and a 500m3 drone bay on top of it. Its effective firepower will still be well below that of a Deimos. wrong. Weren't people just talking about there being more than weapon stats to take into account? A zealot can easily gank and use heavy pulse. Almost all zealots run heavy pulse. However, it simply is NOT practical to use neutrons on a deimos, so you cannot compare them that way. I'd also go a step further and say it is not practical to use ions on a deimos either. Electrons with one dmg mod=better than ions, worse than neutrons. Ions with 1 damage mod=better than neutrons. So, if i have the choice of mounting an rcu/power diags to use ions, or 1-2 damage mods and using electrons (and getting more damage) what will i do? imo, the deimos is only good against cruisers and larger. It also requires a web. Sure, you have drones so you can kill frigs, but you don't go frig hunting in a deimos. Those are there as a last resort to save you from a tackler. the zealot is effective against everything, just not as effective against larger ships as deimos. ____________________________ Waiting to cut out the deadwood. Waiting to clean up the city. Waiting to follow the worms.
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.03.03 19:14:00 - [61] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu K, guy. Even if I did get my wish of a fifth turret slot, the thing would likely have to equip 3 heavy pulse and 2 focused medium pulse, because it wouldn't have the grid for five, MWD and an armor repairer. Even if I did get a fifth turret slot, the Zealot's firepower using multifrequency would be below that of a Deimos using blasters and uranium. Here's the kicker though: Since Deimos has that spiffy MWD bonus, it has more capacitor going to its armortanking ability - all the Zealot retains, is variable range punch. How can anyone possibly, possibly be blind enough to object. Wow, not 3 posts ago you were saying: Quote: doesn't matter what fitting dilemmas you may have, slap on some power diags or other fitting mods if you have to I guess fitting dilemmas are only to be considered when they affect you, right? Everyone else should suck it up. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 19:17:00 - [62] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 03/03/2005 19:20:58 Sorry, you can't just declare one race's medium effectiveness gun equal to another race's highest effectiveness gun just to make your results look in line with your argument. Me, I'm just adapting your arguments. Fifth turret slot too much? You seem to be forgetting that the turrets I'm arguing for have just been neutered hard. So how is it too much, precisely. Look, I know you're giddy because it's Flavor of the Month rotation time and the Amarr are being rendered obsolete for the next half-year, but try to open your eyes.
Jacques Archambault	Posted - 2005.03.03 19:58:00 - [63] Thread cleaned. Please keep it friendly in here. Its OK to disagree with someone, but you can do so in a polite and constructive manner. Thanks, - Jacques {The Forum Rules} \| {Email Us!}
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:10:00 - [64] Edited by: Selim on 03/03/2005 20:12:44 The zealot has TWO damage bonuses. Thats TWO on a LASER ship. Lets get this straight. A projectiles ship with two of them is roughly equal damage wise to a laser ship with none. Stop whining that you don't have your super gankship anymore and try something else. Zealot shoudn't be able to fit heavy pulse so easily anyway. I can't fit jack without pdu's on my Muninn or Vagabond. Ohno, lasers only do EM and thermal? Please. EM is the best damage to do against a tank. If you're not happy with that then I don't know what to say. Zealot was and probably still is stupidly overpowered. Why bother getting a Muninn with artillery or an Eagle or whatever, when you can hit for crazy damage at ranges that actually matter, with a zealot? And please, how on earth are the amarr being 'neutered'? If by neutered you mean 'not as uber but still too powerful for ease of use', then I agree. Pulse are still stupidly easy to fit, still do the same damage they did before, and got their range BARELY reduced. I urge you to try and lose against another HAC. The zealot is one of the fastest HAC's out there. And yet it has crazy armor HP, not to mention its stupid damage. I'm not going to bother continuing to educate you all on why your toys are too good.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:13:00 - [65] How many damage bonuses does a Deimos have? (Istvaan Shogaatsu breakdances because Selim just got served)
Zanthiuse	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:14:00 - [66] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu How many damage bonuses does a Deimos have? (Istvaan Shogaatsu breakdances because Selim just got served) how many does it need to be useful? ____________________________ Waiting to cut out the deadwood. Waiting to clean up the city. Waiting to follow the worms.
Kurenin	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:15:00 - [67] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 17:52:59 Originally by: CCP Hammer Here is a graph of a Zealot vs a Deimos vs a Muninn. The Zealot is fitted with 4 Pulse laser I and 3 Heat Sink II. The Deimos is fitted with 5 Ion Blaster I and 3 Magnetic Field Stabilizer II. The Muninn is fitted with 5 425mm Autocannon I, 2 Heavy Launchers (that's why there is a weird step in the graph) and 3 Gyrostabilizer II. The Red line is the current Zealot on TQ and the yellow line is after the nerf. This is with all skills at 5. It's still possible to find a range where the zealot out performs the other heavy assault cruisers. The Zealot is superior at over 10km. Is it overnerfed now? Was it overpowered before? I'm still testing it but I'm able to beat the Deimos and Muninn if we don't start at point blank range. Maybe my skills are just better than TomB's skills but I don't know if he would agree. Here is why this graph is does not matter.. 1. Where is the 1000m3 of drones from a deimos or the 500m3 of a munin taken into account? 2. Where is the fact that a deimos with it's drones and a munin with it's drones + heavy missles have excellent frigate defense. In a Zealot, if you don't have a web you can get ****** over by inties very easily. I'm really starting to hate graphs since they in no way take into account ship to ship dynamics. They seem more like troll food to me. Yes. I agree. Now lets make more babies Meri. ----- [22:02] <Kurenin> anyhow, on a more serious note, what did you think of those ideas? [22:02] <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming Inactivity wins you.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:15:00 - [68] Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 20:19:05 I just want to remind people why things are balanced now on TQ regarding the Zealot and of course the ships that everyone is ***** forgetting about. 1. Zealot has 4 guns, it's an amarr ship which are suppose to be 'turret humpers' of eve yet it has the less turret points then gallente and minmatar ships. It makes up for this with range flexibility i guess right? I mean, why the else would an amarrian ship have less turrets then other races when they are suppose to be the turret ***s of eve. 2. It has no inty defense besides it's turrets which because of uber interceptor agility, don't track worth a ** at close range. I guess it's once again range flexibility makes up for this to? 3. It is a pure amarrian ship yet it has the same cap as a minmatar munin and less cap then a deimos, a gallente ship. The deimos shines in this regard even more when you take it's mwd cap bonus into account. Range flexibility again?????? Nowhere in this ***** game does amarr lose out on being the capacitor kings of eve. So, the Zealot loses out on it's role as turret king as well as cap king. 4. Other ships like the Crusader are obso***lete. The Retribution which was a total suck ship is now even worse, same with it's suck brother the Vengeance. The Maller was no damage dealing ship and has nothing on a thorax, it now sucks even more, yay! ________________________________________________________
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:17:00 - [69] try fitting webber on zealot vs frigs B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Kurenin	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:19:00 - [70] Originally by: Jennae ugg. always the same arguement. The deimos can only hit to about 8km. It SHOULD do more damage at that range. The zealot, while doing a slight bit less damage, is MUCH more multipurpose. It can hit from a much longer range. Even with drones this is clearly balanced. If you can stay 10km away from the deimos, the 10 medium drones (or 7m, 1h) won't hurt you much, and the guns won't touch ya. Also, not many deimos' can run 5x heavy ion blasters since they also need a MWD (150 grid) and a repairer (175grid). (and you pretty much need a nossie (175-200mw) to keep the guns/tank going) *The zealot has ~300 more grid, doesn't need a MWD, and the guns only use 840 powergrid. that's 500 power grid left over. MORE than enough to mount 2 repairers, and with 1 PDU, you can toss a cap injector on and go full gank and have all the cap you want from charges. and that stuff up there isn't what made me riled up. It's the guy who said "NOW DUAL PULSES CAN'T BE USED OUT OF WEB RANGE" ok. Buddy. take a tissue, blow your nose and think about what you said. Have you EVER used any of the other races close range weapons? optimal under 800m? cmon. the pulses are supposed to be the equivalent to blasters and autocannons. if you want to stay out of web range, use beams! Just like the other races have to use rail/howies. Hello Mr Clueless. Explain to me how it doesn't need a MWD? The MicroWarpDrive is an essential module for all pvp ships. You do NOT have instas for every fricking gate in eve. Also, explain to me how you're able to run two reps for longer than a minute on a ship which has VASTLY less capacitor than the deimos. (The deimos has a MWD bonus too, which I'm not taking into account.) You're a fool. ----- [22:02] <Kurenin> anyhow, on a more serious note, what did you think of those ideas? [22:02] <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming Inactivity wins you.
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:22:00 - [71] Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 03/03/2005 20:24:55 Originally by: Meridius I just want to remind people why things are balanced now on TQ regarding the Zealot and of course the ships that everyone is ***** forgetting about. Youre right! We must throw out the damage and effectiveness balances because the backstory says so! Is your alt the guy who keeps telling me that cruise missiles work right because a cruise missile would kill a F-16 in one shot? I LOVE that guy! Youre losing 28% range on your weapons that do the same damage as blasters. You have been spoiled for far too long if you think that is a crippling nerf. Welcome back to the EVE that non-amarr pilots play. Your entire argument consists of 'Well, under 10k, a Zealot will lose to a deimos' and ignoring the damage curve past that completely. Originally by:** Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:23:00 - [72] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu How many damage bonuses does a Deimos have? (Istvaan Shogaatsu breakdances because Selim just got served) Congratulations! You're able to compare a vastly overpowered ship to another one! Go you.
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:28:00 - [73] Originally by: Meridius ... whine whine whine 1. 2 damage bonuses, still outdamages a deimos even with 4 guns. 2. Medium nosferatu/neutralizer 3. Its got more cap than the ishtar, cerberus or vagabond, which are all the supposed equals of the zealot. 4. I'm sorry but anyone that thinks the crusader is obsolete needs to shut up and go buy a taranis.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:31:00 - [74] Taranis > Crusader on SiSi with the stupid new Webbifiers. You can pretty much WEB a Crusader further then the Crusader can LOCK you. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 20:34:00 - [75] Selim, I beg you to stop posting in my thread. You've done it before in other threads, and the one common element is that what you say is totally detached from reality. A Zealot doing more damage than a Deimos?
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.03 21:17:00 - [76] Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 21:18:15 Selim. 1. You use a web on a crusader, which means your opinion doens't matter at all. 2. Your opinion doesn't matter to begin with 3. You need glasses because Hammerhead, a developer at CCPÖ has put up a graph that shows that IONS outdamage Heavy Pulse without 1000m3 of drones which adds another 100DPS, lol. You have said in another thread that the amarr hax were ok and that the deimos/ishtar are overpowered. Now all of a sudden you're saying the Zealot is way overpowered? Before you reply, refer to point 2. ________________________________________________________
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.03 21:34:00 - [77] I'm flattered that you read every one of my posts, Meridius! But its getting a bit uncomfortable, I don't appreciate stalkers.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 21:39:00 - [78] We can't help it. Every time we post a thread on a balance issue, you're there to try and derail it with complete nonsense. Fortunately for us, complete nonsense doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Lorth	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:04:00 - [79] Hvae you guys completly ignored the part where hammer said that he can beat a diemos consitantly in a real world fight? Why do you insist on fitting nuetrons on the diemos, yet argue that the zelot can't fit its biggest weapons....
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:05:00 - [80] Originally by: Julien Derida and that stuff up there isn't what made me riled up. It's the guy who said "NOW DUAL PULSES CAN'T BE USED OUT OF WEB RANGE" ok. Buddy. take a tissue, blow your nose and think about what you said. Have you EVER used any of the other races close range weapons? optimal under 800m? cmon. the pulses are supposed to be the equivalent to blasters and autocannons. if you want to stay out of web range, use beams! Just like the other races have to use rail/howies. I am actually also an experienced Taranis pilot, which is why I am moaning. Pulses at close-range are inferior to blasters in both damage and tracking. They have a small range advantage which offsets their lack of falloff. Basically, there is no reason to use a Crusader with pulses at close-range if you can fly a Taranis with blasters. This has always been true, but before the Crusader also had the added flexibility of being able to engage outside of web range. Now it has lost that, what is the point of flying a Crusader over a Taranis? Great post coming from both directions ________________________________________________________
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:10:00 - [81] Quote: Hvae you guys completly ignored the part where hammer said that he can beat a diemos consitantly in a real world fight? Why do you insist on fitting nuetrons on the diemos, yet argue that the zelot can't fit its biggest weapons.... Have you forgotten that Deimos sometimes, just sometimes, fights things other than Zealots? Which it usually shatters? Besides, in Hammerhead's real world fight, the Deimos lost because it couldn't close in and was outpaced by the faster Zealot - a single nanofiber on the Deimos completely changes the circumstances, and my corpmates regularly fly with speed mods on their Deimos to offset this.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:14:00 - [82] Originally by: Lorth Hvae you guys completly ignored the part where hammer said that he can beat a diemos consitantly in a real world fight? Why do you insist on fitting nuetrons on the diemos, yet argue that the zelot can't fit its biggest weapons.... What 'real world fight'? What setups did both ships have, what range did it start at? You have none of this information Lorth yet you automatically assume that what Hammer states is 100% true. I'd like to hear more about what setups were used as any ship can kill any other ship under the right circumstance/setup. ________________________________________________________
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:14:00 - [83] Originally by: Meridius 3. You need glasses because Hammerhead, a developer at CCPÖ has put up a graph that shows that IONS outdamage Heavy Pulse without 1000m3 of drones which adds another 100DPS, lol. Yes, assuming that both ships are using the same number of damage mods, the deimos will outdamage a zealot under 10k. I think it is a safe assumption to say that most zealot pilots will not be using just 3 damage mods. I also think it is a safe assumption that most deimos pilots will be using fewer then 3 damage mods. And yet even with these assumptions that seem to favor the deimos's damage output, your zealot still does more damage at every range past 10k. With Heavy Pulse IIs, you will still be hitting for more then 200 DpS at 50k and beyond. Quit complaining that your unbalanced weapons are now less unbalanced. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:16:00 - [84] This is what happens when you have too much of a good thing. Wait for the missile nerf - it's needed but people won't like it. Same situation here. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Jennae	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:21:00 - [85] Originally by: Kurenin Hello Mr Clueless. Explain to me how it doesn't need a MWD? The MicroWarpDrive is an essential module for all pvp ships. You do NOT have instas for every fricking gate in eve. Also, explain to me how you're able to run two reps for longer than a minute on a ship which has VASTLY less capacitor than the deimos. (The deimos has a MWD bonus too, which I'm not taking into account.) You're a fool. a fool? A fool is the person who doesn't know how to read. First off, it has decent cap recharge. enough to run one of the reps most likely. secondly, lets look at my 'foolish' statement: <block>**The zealot has ~300 more grid, doesn't need a MWD, and the guns only use 840 powergrid. that's 500 power grid left over. MORE than enough to mount 2 repairers, and with 1 PDU, you can toss a cap injector on and go full gank and have all the cap you want from charges. </block> Somehow you missed the part where I said a cap injector.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:56:00 - [86] Originally by: Meridius Great post coming from both directions Thanks Mer Originally by: Jennae a fool? A fool is the person who doesn't know how to read. First off, it has decent cap recharge. enough to run one of the reps most likely. secondly, lets look at my 'foolish' statement: <block>**The zealot has ~300 more grid, doesn't need a MWD, and the guns only use 840 powergrid. that's 500 power grid left over. MORE than enough to mount 2 repairers, and with 1 PDU, you can toss a cap injector on and go full gank and have all the cap you want from charges. </block> Somehow you missed the part where I said a cap injector. You still haven't explained why you think you don't need a MWD on a Zealot. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:57:00 - [87] Originally by: RollinDutchMasters Originally by: Meridius 3. You need glasses because Hammerhead, a developer at CCPÖ has put up a graph that shows that IONS outdamage Heavy Pulse without 1000m3 of drones which adds another 100DPS, lol. Yes, assuming that both ships are using the same number of damage mods, the deimos will outdamage a zealot under 10k. I think it is a safe assumption to say that most zealot pilots will not be using just 3 damage mods. I also think it is a safe assumption that most deimos pilots will be using fewer then 3 damage mods. And yet even with these assumptions that seem to favor the deimos's damage output, your zealot still does more damage at every range past 10k. With Heavy Pulse IIs, you will still be hitting for more then 200 DpS at 50k and beyond. Quit complaining that your unbalanced weapons are now less unbalanced. So what, i'm not allowed to tank my Zealot? What kind of retarded statement is that. When i tank my Zealot, i run 0 dmg mods. Ugh ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.03 22:59:00 - [88] Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 23:04:45 Originally by: Jennae Originally by: Kurenin Hello Mr Clueless. Explain to me how it doesn't need a MWD? The MicroWarpDrive is an essential module for all pvp ships. You do NOT have instas for every fricking gate in eve. Also, explain to me how you're able to run two reps for longer than a minute on a ship which has VASTLY less capacitor than the deimos. (The deimos has a MWD bonus too, which I'm not taking into account.) You're a fool. a fool? A fool is the person who doesn't know how to read. First off, it has decent cap recharge. enough to run one of the reps most likely. secondly, lets look at my 'foolish' statement: <block>**The zealot has ~300 more grid, doesn't need a MWD, and the guns only use 840 powergrid. that's 500 power grid left over. MORE than enough to mount 2 repairers, and with 1 PDU, you can toss a cap injector on and go full gank and have all the cap you want from charges. </block> Somehow you missed the part where I said a cap injector. Cap injecting on a Zealot, hahahhaha. That has to be one of the most retarded things i've heard today. Impressive. ________________________________________________________
Hobbsalong	Posted - 2005.03.03 23:23:00 - [89] Putting my training for Amarr HAC on hold. Time to do some of those advanced learning skills. Lets see how things go with this nerf to the med/small siblings of the overpowered Megapulse. They messed the crusader and the Zealot.
Nekhad Jormuzzar	Posted - 2005.03.04 01:55:00 - [90] Crusader is indeed screwed, but that's a matter of medslots and the new webs more than pulses. As for the rest, cry me a river. Pulses will still be overpowered after this "nerf". Better fitting than blasters (hello! there's a reason why people use electrons), better range, better tracking (range DOES count for tracking), less cap used for the most part, and can start dealing damage ages before a blaster does, ergo, more DoT. Cry me a river indeed. Awaiting the missiles change now. Boy that's going to be fun.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.04 01:57:00 - [91] Seriously, thanks for that contribution. No-one has ever posted the phrase "cry me a river" to one of these threads before.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.03.04 02:29:00 - [92] Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 04/03/2005 02:31:54 A 30% drop in optimal does not castrate the Zealot. Your damage output hasn't been reduced one bit, and you can still shatter most cruisers in under 10 seconds flat, you just have to put yourself at more risk getting closer. If you can't handle doing near-blaster damage within web range, don't use multifrequency. By your own admission, the Heavy Pulse is a close range gun, equivalent to a Neutron (yeah, lets see you fit even 4 Neutrons on anything, let alone 5). 14km optimal with -50% ammo is not close range, which is what you currently get. The neutron or 425mm with close range ammo is under 5km optimal. 14km is just short of what you get on 250mm or 650mm with close range ammo. Your own words state that its a close range gun, yet the ranges they are effective at compare with long range artillery and railguns? Not such a big deal? It is when your damage ridiculously outclasses those guns, and the tracking is at a whole new level. You have the following choices: 1. Stop flying a Zealot if its so castrated, switch over to the next ship you deem "Flavor of the Month". 2. Stop fitting Multifrequency crystals if you don't want to get in web range. 3. Get into web range to maintain damage output. You're all spoiled and your opinions are skewed, you use pointless comparisons to make it seem like the current situation is balanced. Its not, small medium and pulse lasers have totally overthrown the use of beams simply due to the fact that they have range. You're lucky you had it like this for so long, and you're lucky its just 30%. _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Redwolf	Posted - 2005.03.04 02:34:00 - [93] Edited by: Redwolf on 04/03/2005 02:34:06 What DC said.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.03.04 03:34:00 - [94] Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 04/03/2005 03:38:09 Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm The medium and large guns are derived from the small, any problem that exists with the large will also be in the medium and small, albeit in a less extreme way - but at the same time any changes that effect the large will also effect the medium and small - but in a less extreme way. No offence, but I wish people would stop repeating this crap. It just shows a profound misunderstanding of frig combat. What is a problem with large guns, may not be a problem at all with small guns. In fact, fixing the 'problem' may make the small guns useless. This is what has happened in this case. MegaPulse now have an operational range of around 5-40km. This is less than before, but still extremely usefull. Dual Light Pulse now have an operational range of between 2-10km. This is entirely useless compared to before. You can now use pulses to stay at the edge of web-range and do even crappier damage than before, or you can switch to multi-freqs and accept that your gun is now a poor man's blaster. Of course, staying on the edge of web range is no use, you need to be able to stay out of it. In summary Combat does not scale linearly between size classes, so why should gun stats? The same patch that will bring the pulse/ammo changes will also increase webifiers range to 15k (The EW changes), so you would be within web range with or without the changes. The larger gun sizes are derived from the small, all of them, therefore weapon ranges do scale linearly between classes ? there are other modules which do not, yes indeed, but why is one class of weapons/race intended to be able to get on one side of said modules and leave the others on the other ? . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Jennae	Posted - 2005.03.04 03:35:00 - [95] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 03/03/2005 23:04:45 Cap injecting on a Zealot, hahahhaha. That has to be one of the most retarded things i've heard today. Impressive. Well. if you are running 2x M reppers, yes. you will need an injector. I don't see why that is "so retarded" Thorax/deimos pilots use em. Megathron and some raven (when they wanna put alot of dmg mods) pilots use them. why not a Zealot? It's been said sooooo many times in this thread how the 1000 cap on the zealot sucks. And it has plenty of grid left over after the 4 HPL II's Also, The zealot is a quick kill ship. I don't think it would NEED a MWD. It has decent range (even post nerf) so it doesn't need to close distance too much. if it's 40km away. the enemy or you will warp out anyway. I'm not saying there isn't a scenario where having one isn't important. I just think a 10mn AB II would be handier (if you want speed). It should put the Zealot over 500m/s, and run constantly w/o so much cap being pulled by MWD penalty and use.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 04:27:00 - [96] Here's a graph that shows deimos/muninn + drones. Nothing more to add. ________________________________________________________
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.04 04:34:00 - [97] What is your point? Zealot is better at high ranges. And with 7 lowslots it can obviously gank btter. Consider that the Muninn only has 5 lows, Deimos has 6 and zealot has 7, yet they all have 3 medslots. I'll also add that it can tank better with those lowslots, too. The Zealot would kick the diemos's ass if it was any more than 15 km or so away. The Muninn would win obviously, due to its resistances, but its supposed to be almighty against amarr, the resistances suck for anything else.
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.04 04:41:00 - [98] Originally by: Selim What is your point? Zealot is better at high ranges. And with 7 lowslots it can obviously gank btter. Consider that the Muninn only has 5 lows, Deimos has 6 and zealot has 7, yet they all have 3 medslots. I'll also add that it can tank better with those lowslots, too. The Zealot would kick the diemos's ass if it was any more than 15 km or so away. The Muninn would win obviously, due to its resistances, but its supposed to be almighty against amarr, the resistances suck for anything else. Not to get into the specifics of these ships, because i havent played with them, shouldnt the amarr do equally well against the minimar ship due to design as well? If the muininn would be such an obvious win, then there is a problem.
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.03.04 04:44:00 - [99] Originally by: Meridius Here's a graph that shows deimos/muninn + drones. Nothing more to add. I guess I'm not seeing the problem with the close ranged ship that's sacrificing 3 lowslots for damage mods doing that damage. I'm also not seeing the problem with heavy pulse lasers (which by your arguments are mid-ranged lasers) being rather poor at short ranges. I'd imagine that a deimos only fitting 1 damage mod (which is the more common combat fitting) would have a damage curve equal or lower then a gank zealot with 7 damage mods from 5k to 10k.... and past there it wouldnt even be a contest, the zealot would massively outdamage it. Thats all irrelevant though, since I'm really not seeing the problem with the short-ranged weapons doing more damage then the medium ranged ones. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.04 04:47:00 - [100] Originally by: Phades Originally by: Selim What is your point? Zealot is better at high ranges. And with 7 lowslots it can obviously gank btter. Consider that the Muninn only has 5 lows, Deimos has 6 and zealot has 7, yet they all have 3 medslots. I'll also add that it can tank better with those lowslots, too. The Zealot would kick the diemos's ass if it was any more than 15 km or so away. The Muninn would win obviously, due to its resistances, but its supposed to be almighty against amarr, the resistances suck for anything else. Not to get into the specifics of these ships, because i havent played with them, shouldnt the amarr do equally well against the minimar ship due to design as well? If the muininn would be such an obvious win, then there is a problem. I don't see the logic in that. Projectiles are in their nature supposed to be versatile with damage and it would be silly for amarr to have their resists increased across the board. Besides, the caldari ones with missiles can do the same thing against the gallente.
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.04 04:50:00 - [101] Considering the entire tech 2 line is to be opposed to one faction, in this case minimar it is perfectly logical to assume that they would be equal against each other.
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.04 04:57:00 - [102] And how do you suggest they do that? Its not like the minmatar ones are good at anything else besides killing the amarr ones anyway.
Redwolf	Posted - 2005.03.04 04:59:00 - [103] Originally by: Selim And how do you suggest they do that? Its not like the minmatar ones are good at anything else besides killing the amarr ones anyway. Are you sure it's not the reverse?
Sochin	Posted - 2005.03.04 05:09:00 - [104] ROFL When I first read this thread topic I thought it said "Zelota: Castrated!". I was like "omg I hope theres pictures!" Nemo me impune lacessit
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.03.04 09:57:00 - [105] just a little something to consider... There's more to it though: Drones can be killed. Staying outside of web range is not that hard given the proper fitting. The more 'multipurpose' a ship is, the more overpowered it becomes. Balance in Eve lives from specialized ships. If you have allrounders performing equal to specialized ships in one area while outperforming them in others you're bound to make them trendy aka overpowered. IMHO this is the case with pulse on Amarr ships atm. Dunno. Judging by those graphs Hammer sounds very reasonable to me, unlike some of the pretty biased opinions in here. Mai's Idealog
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.04 10:34:00 - [106] Doesnt the eagle have an operational advantage in the area where the zealot begins to use radio?
Arud	Posted - 2005.03.04 10:40:00 - [107] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Taranis > Crusader on SiSi with the stupid new Webbifiers. You can pretty much WEB a Crusader further then the Crusader can LOCK you. thats bad... thats very very very very bad
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.03.04 11:02:00 - [108] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 04/03/2005 02:31:54 A 30% drop in optimal does not castrate the Zealot. Your damage output hasn't been reduced one bit, and you can still shatter most cruisers in under 10 seconds flat, you just have to put yourself at more risk getting closer. If you can't handle doing near-blaster damage within web range, don't use multifrequency. By your own admission, the Heavy Pulse is a close range gun, equivalent to a Neutron (yeah, lets see you fit even 4 Neutrons on anything, let alone 5). 14km optimal with -50% ammo is not close range, which is what you currently get. The neutron or 425mm with close range ammo is under 5km optimal. 14km is just short of what you get on 250mm or 650mm with close range ammo. Your own words state that its a close range gun, yet the ranges they are effective at compare with long range artillery and railguns? Not such a big deal? It is when your damage ridiculously outclasses those guns, and the tracking is at a whole new level. You have the following choices: 1. Stop flying a Zealot if its so castrated, switch over to the next ship you deem "Flavor of the Month". 2. Stop fitting Multifrequency crystals if you don't want to get in web range. 3. Get into web range to maintain damage output. You're all spoiled and your opinions are skewed, you use pointless comparisons to make it seem like the current situation is balanced. Its not, small medium and pulse lasers have totally overthrown the use of beams simply due to the fact that they have range. You're lucky you had it like this for so long, and you're lucky its just 30%. Please listen to DC istvaan. Most of what u have been saying is complete tripe. You complain a deimos outdmgs it? yeah it does, at under 10k. Over 10k and a deimos can do naff all. 10 medium drones? Do u know how ineffective these are against a ceptor unless hes webbed? please. 5th turret slot? OMG that is funny, not likely u will ever get that as it would be a simple choice as to which HAC to go for Forums: Sharks - MC
Atandros	Posted - 2005.03.04 11:25:00 - [109] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 04/03/2005 02:31:54 A 30% drop in optimal does not castrate the Zealot. Your damage output hasn't been reduced one bit, and you can still shatter most cruisers in under 10 seconds flat, you just have to put yourself at more risk getting closer. If you can't handle doing near-blaster damage within web range, don't use multifrequency. By your own admission, the Heavy Pulse is a close range gun, equivalent to a Neutron (yeah, lets see you fit even 4 Neutrons on anything, let alone 5). 14km optimal with -50% ammo is not close range, which is what you currently get. The neutron or 425mm with close range ammo is under 5km optimal. 14km is just short of what you get on 250mm or 650mm with close range ammo. Your own words state that its a close range gun, yet the ranges they are effective at compare with long range artillery and railguns? Not such a big deal? It is when your damage ridiculously outclasses those guns, and the tracking is at a whole new level. You have the following choices: 1. Stop flying a Zealot if its so castrated, switch over to the next ship you deem "Flavor of the Month". 2. Stop fitting Multifrequency crystals if you don't want to get in web range. 3. Get into web range to maintain damage output. You're all spoiled and your opinions are skewed, you use pointless comparisons to make it seem like the current situation is balanced. Its not, small medium and pulse lasers have totally overthrown the use of beams simply due to the fact that they have range. You're lucky you had it like this for so long, and you're lucky its just 30%. Word, yo. Plus, the tracking; for comparison, a 150mm railgun has a tracking speed of 0.7 and a heavy pulse has a tracking speed of 0.65. Lethal for ANYTHING at med pulse ranges, and lethal for anything even at point blank range if you web it (I say all this as a Zealot user who's currently training med laser spec).
Brazero	Posted - 2005.03.04 11:39:00 - [110] My Zealot is no longer a gankalot, it's a notalot.
F4ze	Posted - 2005.03.04 11:55:00 - [111] What DigitalCommunist said....so true.
KamiCrazy	Posted - 2005.03.04 12:20:00 - [112] Edited by: KamiCrazy on 04/03/2005 12:27:40 Edited by: KamiCrazy on 04/03/2005 12:24:58 HOLY!!! I didn't know much about the zealot before this thread, but after reading this I want to train amarr HAC asap. 4 HPL 1 tech 2 10mn AB 1 webber 1 track comp 3x nanofibers 2x dmg mod 1x large repairer 1x thermal hardner 318.75 base speed 747m/s AB speed!... and you can OMFG bbq people from like far away too. cap might be a problem I don't know, but as long as you can manage the repairer well I don't think ti should give you any trouble.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.03.04 12:48:00 - [113] I have small specialized lasers for cruisers and my prophecy uses heavy pulse/beams. I think they are better at tech 1 than everything but missiles. However, at tech 2 I think projectiles own, having just about every other medium/big ship w/ 720 IIs. I think they should leave the small and medium guns alone. There isn't a big slant at the frig/cruiser level as there is at the BS level. The problem is actually the armageddon and the fact hybrids use too much cap and gallente ships have too few cpu NOT lasers being overpowered. I don't think beams and tachs are the problem either since falloff is horrible thus balanced compared to rails and howies that can operate well past their optimul. -------------------- The Nest
Shadowsword	Posted - 2005.03.04 13:32:00 - [114] Originally by: Atandros Word, yo. Plus, the tracking; for comparison, a 150mm railgun has a tracking speed of 0.7 and a heavy pulse has a tracking speed of 0.65. Lethal for ANYTHING at med pulse ranges, and lethal for anything even at point blank range if you web it (I say all this as a Zealot user who's currently training med laser spec). You forget a detail here: turret sig radius. With that tracking, nice as it seems to be, a HPL will have a hard time hitting even a webbed inty. Mega pulses does need a nerf, and the one proposed doesn't seem so bad. I also think that Istvaan and Meridius are overreacting, espescially when they suggest that the Zealot is meant to be a gank ship, and as such should be able to wtfpwn everything from 0-50km. It's obvious, looking at it's slot layout, and comparing it's limited turret slots with nice powergrid, that this ships is supposed to be an armor tank, and only a fool would believe that ships stuffed full of no-brainer damage mods are something the devs want to encourage. However, with the nerf of Med pulses, I think ships like the Crusader need to be looked at. You could replace it's tracking bonus (which isn't enough for it be go without web, and not enough to compete with blasters or ACs, by an optimal bonus, or boost a little it's grid so you could accomodate beams a little better... Then there's the EW changes, everything is going to be turned upside down, but that doesn't concern only Amarr ships. My guess is that most inties will use long-range weapons, concentrate on tackling and forget about damage dealing. I'm not sure it's a bad thing...
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.03.04 14:08:00 - [115] Originally by: KamiCrazy Edited by: KamiCrazy on 04/03/2005 12:27:40 Edited by: KamiCrazy on 04/03/2005 12:24:58 HOLY!!! I didn't know much about the zealot before this thread, but after reading this I want to train amarr HAC asap. 4 HPL 1 tech 2 10mn AB 1 webber 1 track comp 3x nanofibers 2x dmg mod 1x large repairer 1x thermal hardner 318.75 base speed 747m/s AB speed!... and you can OMFG bbq people from like far away too. cap might be a problem I don't know, but as long as you can manage the repairer well I don't think ti should give you any trouble. Sorry but I fail to see how a large repairer can fit on a ship with 1362 powergrid (engineering 5) ------------------------------------------
Agenor Deteis	Posted - 2005.03.04 14:26:00 - [116] n0ob q: where are the caldari ships? Eagle anyone? Cerberus??? _________________________________________________
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.04 14:27:00 - [117] I give up, clearly I was wrong.
Atandros	Posted - 2005.03.04 15:07:00 - [118] Originally by: Shadowsword You forget a detail here: turret sig radius. With that tracking, nice as it seems to be, a HPL will have a hard time hitting even a webbed inty. Yes, good point. I did forget about that. Interestingly enough though, the Zealot doesn't seem to have much of a problem hitting inties and frigs fine in practice despite this. F.ex., in mine I hit a Condor moving at 1.7km/s, pure transversal, 10 km away, about 50% of the time (which, considering the insane ROF and damage per hit, is sufficient to kill any frig quickly); also, I saw an enemy Zealot kill a Rifter at 4.5 km and a Crusader at 8 km within about 20 seconds each (though, admittedly, I didn't know its setup or the pilot's skills implants). In conclusion, while the turret sig radius does hamper things somewhat, the damage per hit and the ROF are so good that it doesn't really matter.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:04:00 - [119] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar just a little something to consider... There's more to it though: Drones can be killed. Staying outside of web range is not that hard given the proper fitting. The more 'multipurpose' a ship is, the more overpowered it becomes. Balance in Eve lives from specialized ships. If you have allrounders performing equal to specialized ships in one area while outperforming them in others you're bound to make them trendy aka overpowered. IMHO this is the case with pulse on Amarr ships atm. Dunno. Judging by those graphs Hammer sounds very reasonable to me, unlike some of the pretty biased opinions in here. Your graph is flawed. The deimos advantage area is a lot smaller then it should be. You're showing it's advantage over the muninn. I have a graph that shows TQ stat pulse but with radio nerf, it makes things a lot more even. ________________________________________________________
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:12:00 - [120] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 04/03/2005 17:13:24 Quote: You're showing it's advantage over the muninn. bzzzt... wrong The marked areas show where the specified ships perform better than the other ships in the comparison. Mai's Idealog
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:15:00 - [121] Originally by: Atandros Originally by: Shadowsword You forget a detail here: turret sig radius. With that tracking, nice as it seems to be, a HPL will have a hard time hitting even a webbed inty. Yes, good point. I did forget about that. Interestingly enough though, the Zealot doesn't seem to have much of a problem hitting inties and frigs fine in practice despite this. F.ex., in mine I hit a Condor moving at 1.7km/s, pure transversal, 10 km away, about 50% of the time (which, considering the insane ROF and damage per hit, is sufficient to kill any frig quickly); also, I saw an enemy Zealot kill a Rifter at 4.5 km and a Crusader at 8 km within about 20 seconds each (though, admittedly, I didn't know its setup or the pilot's skills implants). In conclusion, while the turret sig radius does hamper things somewhat, the damage per hit and the ROF are so good that it doesn't really matter. With some tracking stuff, yeah. I have fraps of me (crusader) and a taranis taking down a prophecy using all heavy pulses. He was firing at the whole time (don't remember how long but it took a while). Intially my orbit was 15km, after a while i degraded my orbit to 4km and i got hit maybe once or twice. I even had to go back to 15km after drones started raping me and i still didn't get hit much, heh. ________________________________________________________
Hanns	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:17:00 - [122] notices how everyone here bashing the zealot, and saying its overpowered are all Deimos pilots! the Zealot needs some tweaking after this chgange! give it more cap, and ill be happy!
Spuki	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:18:00 - [123] Yeah, and another missile slot for my raven please.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:26:00 - [124] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 04/03/2005 17:13:24 Quote: You're showing it's advantage over the muninn. bzzzt... wrong The marked areas show where the specified ships perform better than the other ships in the comparison. Uhhh This thread is about the Zealot not the Muninn. It's advantage over the Muninn has nothing to do the topic at hand. ________________________________________________________
Hanns	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:28:00 - [125] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 04/03/2005 17:13:24 Quote: You're showing it's advantage over the muninn. bzzzt... wrong The marked areas show where the specified ships perform better than the other ships in the comparison. Uhhh This thread is about the Zealot not the Muninn. It's advantage over the Muninn has nothing to do the topic at hand. also meridius if you looks shes, using the RED line which is the Current TQ Zealot, the Yellow line is what she should be working with!
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:28:00 - [126] Originally by: Agenor Deteis n0ob q: where are the caldari ships? Eagle anyone? Cerberus??? Don't know, they are suck and need fixing. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:34:00 - [127] Originally by: Hanns also meridius if you looks shes, using the RED line which is the Current TQ Zealot, the Yellow line is what she should be working with! Yep that to ________________________________________________________
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:39:00 - [128] Originally by: Atandros Originally by: Shadowsword You forget a detail here: turret sig radius. With that tracking, nice as it seems to be, a HPL will have a hard time hitting even a webbed inty. Yes, good point. I did forget about that. Interestingly enough though, the Zealot doesn't seem to have much of a problem hitting inties and frigs fine in practice despite this. F.ex., in mine I hit a Condor moving at 1.7km/s, pure transversal, 10 km away, about 50% of the time (which, considering the insane ROF and damage per hit, is sufficient to kill any frig quickly); also, I saw an enemy Zealot kill a Rifter at 4.5 km and a Crusader at 8 km within about 20 seconds each (though, admittedly, I didn't know its setup or the pilot's skills implants). In conclusion, while the turret sig radius does hamper things somewhat, the damage per hit and the ROF are so good that it doesn't really matter. I had to sacrifice some damage to get that tracking, but I was surprised I hit the Rifter, he was damn close. ------------------------------------------
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:41:00 - [129] Originally by: KamiCrazy Edited by: KamiCrazy on 04/03/2005 12:27:40 Edited by: KamiCrazy on 04/03/2005 12:24:58 HOLY!!! I didn't know much about the zealot before this thread, but after reading this I want to train amarr HAC asap. 4 HPL 1 tech 2 10mn AB 1 webber 1 track comp 3x nanofibers 2x dmg mod 1x large repairer 1x thermal hardner 318.75 base speed 747m/s AB speed!... and you can OMFG bbq people from like far away too. cap might be a problem I don't know, but as long as you can manage the repairer well I don't think ti should give you any trouble. Good luck with that, i look forward to viewing your next loss on killboard.net ________________________________________________________
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:54:00 - [130] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 04/03/2005 18:01:32 Errr so I shouldn't be using TQ values to compare ships on TQ? Well sry then Quote: This thread is about the Zealot not the Muninn. It's advantage over the Muninn has nothing to do the topic at hand. Just like the pic I posted. But forget about it. You keep bending reality to your needs. Seems to work fine for you. Bye. Mai's Idealog
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 18:02:00 - [131] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Errr so I shouldn't be using TQ values to compare ships on TQ? Well sry then You should do what i said and show the Deimos/Muninn advtange over the Zealot or remove your retarded graph. Showing the Deimos's advtange over the Muninn has nothing to do with the Zealot. If you want a cookie you'll adjust the TQ line with the radio crystal nerf. I've done that but i left the graph at home ________________________________________________________
Hanns	Posted - 2005.03.04 18:15:00 - [132] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 04/03/2005 18:01:32 Errr so I shouldn't be using TQ values to compare ships on TQ? Well sry then Quote: This thread is about the Zealot not the Muninn. It's advantage over the Muninn has nothing to do the topic at hand. Just like the pic I posted. But forget about it. You keep bending reality to your needs. Seems to work fine for you. Bye. Dont be such a ******* moron, this thread is about the upcoming laser changes, why would we want to compare to the TQ values when there going to be CHANGED!!! understand!
Kurenin	Posted - 2005.03.04 19:09:00 - [133] Originally by: Selim And how do you suggest they do that? Its not like the minmatar ones are good at anything else besides killing the amarr ones anyway. Hi. The Zealot has a kinetic and explosive armour / shield res bonus. The Muninn and Vagabond does all damage types. All minmatar ships do all damage types. Zealot does 2. So, tell me, how are the Minmatar ones unable to kill anything but the Amarr ones, and why are the Amarr ones tanking kin/explosive, when Minmatar HAC's can do all 4 damage types? Originally by: KamiCrazy HPL 1 tech 2 10mn AB 1 webber 1 track comp 3x nanofibers 2x dmg mod 1x large repairer 1x thermal hardner Worst. Setup. Ever. Please, oh great god of all setups, please tell me how you're going to stop people from warping? While you're at it, please tell me where your capacitor is coming from? Oh and where you're getting 2k pg? I'd like to know. Why do these threads attract such muppets? ----- [22:02] <Kurenin> anyhow, on a more serious note, what did you think of those ideas? [22:02] <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming Inactivity wins you.
Gaius Kador	Posted - 2005.03.04 19:18:00 - [134] Originally by: Kurenin Why do these threads attract such muppets? Lots of muppets play EVE, and lobbyism is seemingly very popular ;) That setup made me grin tho, so its not all bad. ----------------------------------------------
Atandros	Posted - 2005.03.04 19:21:00 - [135] Originally by: MadGaz I had to sacrifice some damage to get that tracking, but I was surprised I hit the Rifter, he was damn close. omghi2u Yes, we were pretty surprised too. I had no tracking stuff fitted for the Condor in the example I mentioned, though.
Nekhad Jormuzzar	Posted - 2005.03.04 20:20:00 - [136] Edited by: Nekhad Jormuzzar on 04/03/2005 20:41:31 Originally by: Meridius Here's a graph that shows deimos/muninn + drones. Nothing more to add. Indeed, looks perfectly balanced to be honest. Specially considering that: Drones can easily be shot down or left behind and replacements are impossible to carry around. They also take their time to reach the target, and are subjected to tracking, which I bet you have not taken into account in the graph. The usual zealot will always have more dmg mods than the usual Deimos. Yes, I'm aware that yours doesn't. But then on the other hand it will certainly be an outstanding tank. Trade offs, and all that. There is a window at medium range where the Zealot has 60-70 dps more than the Muninn and 100 more than the Deimos in that graph. With the zealot's speed and a web, you can exploit that to your advantage. With said web and a neuter or nos in the last slot, inties should not be that much of a problem. Ask HG, he uses a neuter. Or you could use a smartbomb, if you are so inclined, and easily wipe out those pesky drones you insisted so much in taking into account. By the way, if you use Sisi pulses, using Sisi webs would make more sense, wouldn't it?
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 20:58:00 - [137] Edited by: Meridius on 04/03/2005 22:07:33 Originally by: Nekhad Jormuzzar Indeed, looks perfectly balanced to be honest. Specially considering that: Drones can easily be shot down or left behind and replacements are impossible to carry around. They also take their time to reach the target, and are subjected to tracking, which I bet you have not taken into account in the graph. The usual zealot will always have more dmg mods than the usual Deimos. Yes, I'm aware that yours doesn't. But then on the other hand it will certainly be an outstanding tank. Trade offs, and all that. There is a window at medium range where the Zealot has 60-70 dps more than the Deimos in that graph. With the zealot's speed and a web, you can exploit that to your advantage. With said web and a neuter or nos in the last slot, inties should not be that much of a problem. Ask HG, he uses a neuter. Or you could use a smartbomb, if you are so inclined, and easily wipe out those pesky drones you insisted so much in taking into account. By the way, if you use Sisi pulses, using Sisi webs would make more sense, wouldn't it? You say that a deimos would likely use fewer damage mods, why is that..it tanks and it has a lot more cap to do so then a Zealot, with an MWD on, this difference is futher multiplied. Also, when i put in 6 or 7 dmg mods, what the hell is defending me??? Oh thats right, trade off, all offense, no defense. I get jammed, i'm 100% useless. The 90DPS a Deimos can do with just drones up to 45km is only something a noob would toss aside as nothing. Oh and ofc, when you get jammed, you have drones. A Deimos also recieves a thermal resist bonus which is without argument the most common damage type in EVE. Heavy drones have no problems tracking cruisers, why in the world would mediums have any difficulty? Oh thats right, they wouldn't. All this patch will do is make the Zealot a cheap Deimos immitation, much how the Crusader will be an inferior Taranis. I'm sorry if you think the range of your blasters is a shortcoming, the idea of shattering a battleship in 15seconds is one that gives me quite the hard on. Thats one ship i would seriously love to fly. Furthermore, the agility changes that i feel will happen will make range even less an issue as it is for a Taranis. I'm pretty sure these agility changes will happen, just because it is so utterly broken right now. [offtopic] Those numbers again: Cruisers are 62% more agile then Battleships yet frigates are 314% more agile then Cruisers. [/offtopic] Oh and about the web comment. Webs on SISI are so broken right now my mind refuses to accept it. Being webbed from 30km by a tech1 web? Thats ridiculous. If those changes do come in, your Deimos and any other close range heavy will be 100% broken. Ships will warp into combat only to be webbed on sight. Snipers will rule and everything else will die. ________________________________________________________
KamiCrazy	Posted - 2005.03.04 21:10:00 - [138] Originally by: Kurenin Why do these threads attract such muppets? \ I meant med repairer, the ones suited to cruisers. I normally shield tank ships and so I put large repairer without thinking. However, cap isn't too much a problem with max engineering skills and decent ship skills. Who said it was designed to tackle? I don't want to tackle. I'll leave that to a frigate. As long as I don't die everything's fine.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.03.04 21:11:00 - [139] Quote: With said web and a neuter or nos in the last slot, inties should not be that much of a problem. Ask HG, he uses a neuter. Or you could use a smartbomb, if you are so inclined, and easily wipe out those pesky drones you insisted so much in taking into account. Not anymore I don't - with Heavy Pulse II, I can't fit it anymore.
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.05 06:58:00 - [140] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 04/03/2005 17:13:24 Quote: You're showing it's advantage over the muninn. bzzzt... wrong The marked areas show where the specified ships perform better than the other ships in the comparison. Yeah hi, im still wondering where the line for the eagle is that would wipe out the zealot advantage at around 20-25km. Thx in advance.
Shadowsword	Posted - 2005.03.05 09:40:00 - [141] Originally by: Atandros Originally by: Shadowsword You forget a detail here: turret sig radius. With that tracking, nice as it seems to be, a HPL will have a hard time hitting even a webbed inty. Yes, good point. I did forget about that. Interestingly enough though, the Zealot doesn't seem to have much of a problem hitting inties and frigs fine in practice despite this. F.ex., in mine I hit a Condor moving at 1.7km/s, pure transversal, 10 km away, about 50% of the time (which, considering the insane ROF and damage per hit, is sufficient to kill any frig quickly); also, I saw an enemy Zealot kill a Rifter at 4.5 km and a Crusader at 8 km within about 20 seconds each (though, admittedly, I didn't know its setup or the pilot's skills implants). In conclusion, while the turret sig radius does hamper things somewhat, the damage per hit and the ROF are so good that it doesn't really matter. I guess that the inty pilot kept his MWD running, which would skyrocket it's sig radius to the 120-170 range. I don't think you could hit often an AB fitted interceptor.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.03.05 11:55:00 - [142] and don't forget that medium nosf is quite standard equipement on zealot, so it is not good to go near... and if webbed and nosfed it should die...

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