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small lasers, with the impending nerf

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Safaomae	Posted - 2005.03.03 17:36:00 - [1] to be honest, I've not read more on this nerf than what's been said on the forums... but my question is, will I still be able to use my 3 medium pules I's on my punisher? (yes I'm a noob ) I cant fit the beam version as the fitting is too high, but with a few more skills, I should have a pretty viable lvl 2 pve mission set up based around the medium pulses.. unless they change and I cant fit them of course?
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:21:00 - [2] Pulses will be losing 28% of their optimal range. Radio S will lose 2 damage, Microwave S will lose 1 damage, and Standard S will gain 3 damage. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Vigilant	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:24:00 - [3] Small and Medium should NOT have been touched.... Sorry to say but CCP has this wrong....
Arbenowskee	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:31:00 - [4] Originally by: Vigilant Small and Medium should NOT have been touched.... Sorry to say but CCP has this wrong.... no it's not. medium pulse laser (medium range weapon) with radio (long range/"low" dmg ammo) does more dmg than 150mm railgun (long range weapon) with AM (close range/"high" dmg ammo) and has better range while having 2 times better tracking. THIS is wrong. and we all know that all other ammos for hybrids suck (dmg wise).
Vigilant	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Arbenowskee Originally by: Vigilant Small and Medium should NOT have been touched.... Sorry to say but CCP has this wrong.... no it's not. medium pulse laser (medium range weapon) with radio (long range/"low" dmg ammo) does more dmg than 150mm railgun (long range weapon) with AM (close range/"high" dmg ammo) and has better range while having 2 times better tracking. THIS is wrong. and we all know that all other ammos for hybrids suck (dmg wise). So, basically every gun (hybrid/projectile/blaster/laser) in its class ... Should hit for the same damage, have the same range, and track the same.... Whats the point of the races then I fly many many ships...and fly them cause I like the diffrencies they bring... I don't want a bunch of "one setup" Ships ... This nerf.. will just make Amarr Ceptors disappear... Amarr Cruisers even more rare than they are now.. And guess what ......... More Caldari Ships will be floating around EVE.. (not like I don't like them too ) So, if AMMO nerf is happening... better have the Missile Changes too.. Other wise...we can change the entire EVE map to Caldari State Owned... cause all we will see is Caldari Boats.
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2005.03.03 18:43:00 - [6] Originally by: Arbenowskee Originally by: Vigilant Small and Medium should NOT have been touched.... Sorry to say but CCP has this wrong.... no it's not. medium pulse laser (medium range weapon) with radio (long range/"low" dmg ammo) does more dmg than 150mm railgun (long range weapon) with AM (close range/"high" dmg ammo) and has better range while having 2 times better tracking. THIS is wrong. and we all know that all other ammos for hybrids suck (dmg wise). No, we dont all know that. Why? cause thornium ammo is a really really good Hybrid ammo, same with tungsten. If your using AM in a Railgun, well sorry to say but your using the wrong gun. _______________________________________________
Safaomae	Posted - 2005.03.03 19:55:00 - [7] Edited by: Safaomae on 03/03/2005 19:55:14 Originally by: RollinDutchMasters Pulses will be losing 28% of their optimal range. Radio S will lose 2 damage, Microwave S will lose 1 damage, and Standard S will gain 3 damage. thanks for the easy to read summary well, so that means, med pulses with multi spec crystals will be even better at close range than before? atleast there's one good point besides, it's the medium beams that were disigned to be used at longer range... I just cant fit them on my frig, that's all do correct me if I'm wrong
Safaomae	Posted - 2005.03.05 02:53:00 - [8] woah, these forums move a bit fast... does no one have anything more to say on the subject?
Felony Assualt	Posted - 2005.03.05 04:25:00 - [9] The beams should have lower grid. I mean 16 grid, come on no frig can fit them without throwing on 2 or 3 MAPC. Rails/Howies can fit on frigs easy, how come beams cant fit? Heres a little comparison: 150 Railgun I - 25 cpu, 10 grid 280 Howitzer I - 15 cpu, 12 grid Medium Beam I - 20 cpu, 16 grid It is just silly that the grid on beams, the punisher has 42 grid, the crusader has 40 grid, the malediction has 35 grid, the retribution has 56 grid, and the vengance has 47 grid. How in gods earth are we suppose to fit beams on these frigates if the beam laser takes 16 grid. You can fit just the guns maybe, how the hell are we suppose to fit anything else?? I think that just maybe the grid should be lowered on medium beams to 11 or 12. Whats the point to have beams if you cant even fit them without using all the lowslots for MAPCs? Since pulse lasers are suppose to have the effective range as blasters/autocannons why cant beams be used for the longer range like the rails/howies. Its just silly reducing amarr frigates to be reduced to close range combat when they are meant to just orbit really fast and pound the **** out of other ships. I guess ill just have to fit my crusader and retribution with rails to get the ranged effect that beams are suppose to have. Im just stating that CCP will have to fix beams on figates before they can make the pulse range nerf. Those who can, do; Those who cant, teach
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.05 06:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Arbenowskee Originally by: Vigilant Small and Medium should NOT have been touched.... Sorry to say but CCP has this wrong.... no it's not. medium pulse laser (medium range weapon) with radio (long range/"low" dmg ammo) does more dmg than 150mm railgun (long range weapon) with AM (close range/"high" dmg ammo) and has better range while having 2 times better tracking. THIS is wrong. and we all know that all other ammos for hybrids suck (dmg wise). Fitted on any ship with a damage bonus, that statement isnt true. Fitted on a ship with range bonuses the comparison looks even less intellegent. So unless you are comparing rails to pulses on your basic amarr frig, then im not sure where you are trying to go with this, because frig vs frig does not require 1000s of damage to come to a conclusion.
nemtrex	Posted - 2005.03.05 08:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Vigilant I fly many many ships...and fly them cause I like the diffrencies they bring... I don't want a bunch of "one setup" Ships ... This nerf.. will just make Amarr Ceptors disappear... Amarr Cruisers even more rare than they are now.. Like you see many Gallente BS' now? But who cares? Noone...
Question2	Posted - 2005.03.05 08:56:00 - [12] The entire laser class needs to be nerfed badly.Not just pulses. I mean,what other races have to do is train up the relative ship skill to level 5 with damage/rof bonuses to come close to doing the damage that lasers do,BY DEFAULT..... While having superior optimal/tracking/etc/etc.... Oh and the reason lasers take so much grid is becasue amaar ships have so much grid.Dont get me started on the 200 more grid that brutix nonsense......300 more than caldari "rail" platform.......
fras	Posted - 2005.03.05 09:13:00 - [13] WITH ship bonus' figured in there was nothing wrong with medium pulses before. I agree with a megapulse nerf but nerfing every amarr ship in game because of 1 gun is wrong. The best suggestion i've heard is removing the ROF bonus on the Arma, the megapulse is not overpowered on the apoc. Why change so many things when 1 thing will fix the problem..
Hobbsalong	Posted - 2005.03.05 09:29:00 - [14] Edited by: Hobbsalong on 05/03/2005 09:30:14 think I tried a crusader setup and running 4 dual light beams with named mwd, warp disruptor and 4 cap relays. Kinda held its own with all running. Dmg was not amazing.. but it does its job 4 modulated dual light beams fitting tech IIs is another issue however
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.03.05 11:33:00 - [15] nerf for t3h win... when will they reduce torp. fly time to 20s ?
Sangxianc	Posted - 2005.03.05 11:39:00 - [16] I reckon the Medium Beams should be reduced to 14pg, and T2's to 15pg. - Any man's death diminishes me, as I am involved in mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.
Shifu	Posted - 2005.03.05 11:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Felony Assualt The beams should have lower grid. I mean 16 grid, come on no frig can fit them without throwing on 2 or 3 MAPC. Rails/Howies can fit on frigs easy, how come beams cant fit? Heres a little comparison: 150 Railgun I - 25 cpu, 10 grid 280 Howitzer I - 15 cpu, 12 grid Medium Beam I - 20 cpu, 16 grid It is just silly that the grid on beams, the punisher has 42 grid, the crusader has 40 grid, the malediction has 35 grid, the retribution has 56 grid, and the vengance has 47 grid. How in gods earth are we suppose to fit beams on these frigates if the beam laser takes 16 grid. You can fit just the guns maybe, how the hell are we suppose to fit anything else?? I think that just maybe the grid should be lowered on medium beams to 11 or 12. Whats the point to have beams if you cant even fit them without using all the lowslots for MAPCs? Since pulse lasers are suppose to have the effective range as blasters/autocannons why cant beams be used for the longer range like the rails/howies. Its just silly reducing amarr frigates to be reduced to close range combat when they are meant to just orbit really fast and pound the **** out of other ships. I guess ill just have to fit my crusader and retribution with rails to get the ranged effect that beams are suppose to have. Im just stating that CCP will have to fix beams on figates before they can make the pulse range nerf. signed!!!
Dred 'Morte	Posted - 2005.03.05 11:58:00 - [18] Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 05/03/2005 11:58:53 Beams do have more range, but with their lower Damage on Time, much higher PowerGrid use (and a bit more cpu too), and, im not sure about this last one, increased Capacitor use, they become very bad weapons. Megabeams/Tachyons are still used by Apocalypses in long range engagements, but thats all. In theory, a beam has lower rof than a pulse, but does more dmg, currently they have same dmg mod, its wrong in my opinion, the extra range u get for using beams should be a reward for the much higher powergrid use. DoT on Pulse/Beam should be the same IMHO.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.03.05 12:34:00 - [19] Edited by: Ithildin on 05/03/2005 13:32:33 Nevermind. Reaction to some off topic bits I read earlier. Sorry. Just remember that beams weren't changed all that much (aside from ammo being brought in line to the proj/hyb changes) -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Safaomae	Posted - 2005.03.05 12:56:00 - [20] thanks for all your input people and yes, I also agree that medium beams require to much fitting, being able to put those on a frig with a decent defence is just not do able
Lygos	Posted - 2005.03.05 13:03:00 - [21] I have to ask if things will be better "balanced" versus npcs when you take the sum total of the ship's effectiveness (an abstract notion to be sure). When I look at the assault frigate for the Amarr, I can't help but notice that what increasingly is supposed to look like a tanking ship is actually not such a great tanker. Yeah, it can field a cruiser's level of armor, but look at the primary resistances of kinetic and explosive damage. How many npc groups do primarilly kinetic and explosive damage? Minmatar Navy ships are pretty much it, and even they mix in EM with that. The only other class of such ships is a few high end named npcs. That is a pretty big blow to repairer efficiency no matter how much armor an Amarr ship have. Caldari Harpy and Gallente Enyo tanking are simple, thermal and kinetic, and that works against just about everything popular. That coupled with their very customizable damage output as well as the varied combat approaches available to them makes them superior in non-specific circumstances. They can fight all the basic RP foes with these outfittings. And the minmies get to launch any damage type they want even if they are in a similar boat as Amarr for resistances. Amarr and minmatar can only fight each other's ship types irrespective of standing changes. Minmatar ships can fight Blood Raiders as well as Amarr Navy vessels, but not effectively agaisnt minmatar pirates. The same is true for Amarr ships. I would not take my Retribution up against Blood Raiders, nor as a mimatar would I desire to fight Blood Raiders (much). I have to depend on damage and compromised setups to see me through that if I am forced to do it at all. This is a bit of a wandering set of observations I know, but look at the rare weapon bonuses Amarr ships get. Additional RoF is the main one, or extra optimal range occasionally. No damage increases. The main complaint people have with large turret ships is their application, spawnpoint camping basically, and their tracking versus frigate class vessels. Taking down the Amarr's range makes much more sense rather than making its tracking like 1400s on a Minmie ship of course. That will make Amarr be seen as close range dominance ship. What worries me is drastically cutting its damage curve within its optimal. Amarr don't have even medium length falloff ranges either, which is also perfectly acceptable. I like our style very much. I just worry that adjusting a set of ships' performances in one area requires an offset in others, at least in npc conflict if not in the pvp realm. Please note the restrictions on the application on the pulse weapon and amarr ships in general as well as its advantages. It would be better to see the undesired application of some tools get a nerf, rather than the tool. Or better yet, it would be nice to see the application of other ethnicities' tools get a boost, rather than boost the tools. That would require the addition of new content in the form of new and trickier battlefields. This would encourage specialization to get more developed and deepen.
fras	Posted - 2005.03.05 13:36:00 - [22] Edited by: fras on 05/03/2005 13:43:16 Originally by: Ithildin Gah! Could you guys stick on topic!? This is about Medium PULSE Laser after the "nerf" (which is actually a rebalance, but people dislike their stuff getting pulled down to the level of other's stuff). This is NOT about Medium BEAM Laser. Go do a new thred about that! And back your numbers up by DoT and expected cap usage, too! FYI. Medium Beam is the small version of the Tachyon Beam The reason people are talking about beams is because pulses have had a range reduction so have become useless in some frig setups. Like the common Crusader dual light pulse setup for example. Since when have medium beams been the small version of Tachyons? They're the small version of Megabeams as far as I can see.. both the name and the stepped down stats kinda give it away. As for rebalance to bring pulses to the level of other stuff, lets have a look at pulses compared to others WITH ship bonus' factored in. These percentages are taken from the normalised damage mod with frigate level 5 where 100% is the most damaging gun: Light neutron blaster II: 100% (1.5 normalised, only frig 5 considered) 200mm autcannon II: 77.08% (1.15625 normalised, only frig 5 considered) Medium pulse laser II: 68.57% (1.02857 normalised, only frig 5 considered) Looks pretty fair to me. The laser pays for it's extra range with the lowest DOT, lowest tracking & equal highest PG requirement(same as the much more damaging neutron). Also take into consideration that if a laser user wants to go beyond 10km (all that matters when it comes to range since it's outside web distance) they'll be dealing almost only EM damage. The only ship exempt from the above stats and the only amarr frig with a damage bonus is the retribution. This is fine imo though as the retribution has it's own issues anyway, like 1 mid slot for example. The MEGAPULSE needs nerfing due to it's stepped up stats from the small pulses being out of proportion. You're talking such short ranges with the small lasers anyway it makes much less of a difference. Plus frigates are a whole different ball game, much fewer low slots for much fewer damage mods etc..
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.03.05 14:13:00 - [23] fras, you quoted me before the edit (which was made before your post ^^) In either case. Forget about tracking. Tracking is relative to range - if you have good range you shouldn't have good tracking. Or rather, tracking is lowest range and range is longest range. And while we are on the subject of range... you know, I don't use blasters on my Taranis. This lets me attack and kill almost any interceptor in the game with no sweat, including the elevated Blaster Taranis. Only Claw gives me a through hurting, and the Stiletto has much better EW capacity. This also aply to my Crusader/Malediction setups, although I don't use them in quite the same way. What I mean to say is: range does matter with small weapons. It matters a lot. If you can get a range over 5km, you'll have untold advantages. This is to do with agility in combination with recently shut down MWDs. I've killed many ceptors in both my Taranis and my Crusader because they keep overshooting when webbed or when turning off MWD. Not to mention that they cannot keep a close enough orbit WITH the MWD. So. Neutr. versus Med Pulse range matters. A lot. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
fras	Posted - 2005.03.05 16:24:00 - [24] Edited by: fras on 05/03/2005 16:34:07 A neutron II with iron ammo and skills can hit out to nearly 7km. After the changes a medium pulse 2 with radio can hit out to about 12. So for an extra 5km range the pulse has over 30% less damage, 1 damage type and more than half the tracking speed(which matters a huge amount in frigate combat imo). Like I say I do think a megapulse nerf is called for, but not the frigate sized or cruiser sized weapons, they are balanced as they are atm imo. You might think it's crying over nothing, but the dual light pulse II has gone from nearly 15km to 10km which means it's useless for a >10km setup. The only option for range then is a dual light beam which have much lower tracking and damage - or setup for shortrange with pulse, which as you can see by the numbers doesn't bare in it's favour vs other more suited ships and guns.

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