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Ryshca
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 10:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
tl;dr: I am not sure, if this topic has been discussed already tousands of times, since it is so obvious. It is about the fact that you need 18 ranks, 4.608.000sp more for missiles skills than for a gun system.
Walloftext: All numbers are the rank of the skill. The rank says how much total sp you need for a skill, i.e.: rank 1 = 256k sp rank 2 = 2*256k sp = 256k sp rank 5 = 5*256k sp = 1280k sp
support
missile lau. operation1 target navi prediction 2 rapid launch2 missile bombardment2 missile projection4 warhead upgrades 5 guided missile prec5 total 20
gunnery1 controlled bursts2 motion prediction2 rapid firing2 sharpshooter2 surgical strike4 trajectory analysis5 total 18
In the support skills we got already a gap of 2 ranks, but while you can use the missile support skills only for one weapon system, you can use the gunnery support skills for three weapon system. Let's continue to have a look at weapons at all, as example i choosed projectile as gunnery skill. It can be replaced with lasers or hyprids, the ranks are the same:
small
Rocket 1 ________ spec 3 Light Missiles 2 ________ spec 3 total 9
s projectile 1 ________ spec 3 ________ spec 3 total 7
medium
heavy missile3 ________ spec 5 assault missile 3 ________ spec 5 total 16
m projectile 3 ________ spec 5 ________ spec 5 total 13
large
cruise missile5 ________ spec 8 torpedos4 ________ spec 8 total 25
l projectile5 ________ spec 8 ________ spec 8 total 21
capital
citadel cruise7 citadel torpedos7 total 14
capital projectiles7 total 7
Here we got a total gap of 16 ranks (4.096.000sp). small2 medium3 large4 capital7 total16 The specialization skills are inline with the gunnery skills again. But on the standard missile skills you need for each range, class a extra skill. If you look at the gunnery skills you need for each class one skill, which enables the long and short range gun. It ends threwith that you need to train twice so many standard missile skills as for the guns. Which ends in a gap of 16 total ranks which are still 4.096.000sp. Just a random sidenote, if you train for something like a matar dread you will end with using 21 ranks of skills for your weapons, 14ranks for missile and 7 for the gun. While the Caldari dread pilots need only 14 ranks while amarr and gallente dread pilots (the best dreads btw) only need 7 ranks to train for their weapons.
We also have total useless missile skills like the fof and defender missile with a total of 5 ranks, just on a site note.
History, how the missiles skilltree evolved: In the first days of eve missiles skills were different to guns. You just had the standard missile skill, which were more ranks to train but you had just a few support skills like missile launcher operation and rapid firing. So far so good. Back then missiles used to do always max damage on targets, but torpedos i.e. were to slow to catch fast ships like ceptors. They were just imba in pve, always max damage even with torps vs fr orbiting you ^^. Well that got changed with the implementing of explosion velocity. They gave us more support skills, which increased the explosion velocity and missile velocity at all. With these new support skills, missiles were almost inline with the gunnery support skills considering the ranks, only a gab of 2 ranks. But the negative aspect of missiles that you always had to train a skill for short and long range never got changed. I assume it just got forgotten that you have so much more to train and never got questioned again. How about fixing the ranks of missile skills, so it is balanced again to the gunnery skills?
PS: There are some unmentioned gunnery skills, but these are not being used exclusive for guns so i didn't list them. |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
314
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Posted - 2012.09.27 10:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Controlled Bursts is only applicable to Cap. using Turrets. Missiles don't use Capacitor, and neither do Projectiles. Guided Missile Precision only applies to Guided missiles, and has no effect on dumbfire varieties.
Missiles can also be trained semi-randomly; for instance, I had Bomb Launchers practically at the start of training missiles. I'm one level 5 training period from having Tech 2 Bomb Launchers, and yet I still only have Light Missiles 3 . ofc, I also have Heavy Missiles 3, and Torpedoes 2 iirc, and only because an SB just isn't really an SB without Torps.
I think this, (the OP), has been argued before; not saying you don't have a good and relevant argument. I never bother trying to calculate all that stuff any more, or even worry about it for that matter. Maybe I was actually sleeping in front of my computer and dreamed I posted. Certainly, it's not there now. |
Mark Hadden
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
12
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Posted - 2012.09.27 10:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
so what? why you expect missiles having the same SP amount as guns? Missiles arent guns. |
Ryshca
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 11:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Controlled Bursts is only applicable to Cap. using Turrets. Missiles don't use Capacitor, and neither do Projectiles. Guided Missile Precision only applies to Guided missiles, and has no effect on dumbfire varieties.
Missiles can also be trained semi-randomly; for instance, I had Bomb Launchers practically at the start of training missiles. I'm one level 5 training period from having Tech 2 Bomb Launchers, and yet I still only have Light Missiles 3 . ofc, I also have Heavy Missiles 3, and Torpedoes 2 iirc, and only because an SB just isn't really an SB without Torps.
I think this, (the OP), has been argued before; not saying you don't have a good and relevant argument. I never bother trying to calculate all that stuff any more, or even worry about it for that matter.
Controlled Bursts, true today, in the past projectils used cap too. But what do you mean with "applied only to guided missiles", we don't have unguided missiles in eve.
Mark Hadden wrote:so what? why you expect missiles having the same SP amount as guns? Missiles arent guns. Why do have laser, hyprid and projectile weapons all the same ranks? I would understand if gunnery skills takes more sp, since you can use the support skills for three kind of weapons but the missile support skills only for missiles, and a few less for the bomb launcher. But leave the support skills as they are, the main point i want to point out is that you need much more sp for the small/medium/large/capital missile launcher skills than for guns.
Also are missiles not so much used as guns. The only race which rely on missiles is caldari, which has also to train hyprids. Other races rely on missile less than gallente does on drones. That is why i think missiles should be in the training time at least equal to guns. |
Mark Hadden
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 11:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
advantage of missiles you dont need to train T2 lights and mediums, you can straight go for heavy BS sized class weapons, while you have to train all gun classes below to get the big ones. |
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
372
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 12:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yeah, it's well known that the missile skill tree is considerably longer than each turret one. But in exchange, missile users are able to join the missile tree at different points - if you want to train torps then it's a lot quicker than training large turrets. A good example of "different but balanced".
The only place where it's kinda screwed up is for capital missiles, where you have the worse of both worlds - having two separate capital missile skills that still require rank V in their large missile precursor. |
Mark Hadden
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 12:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:The only place where it's kinda screwed up is for capital missiles, where you have the worse of both worlds - having two separate capital missile skills that still require rank V in their large missile precursor. theoretically, practically, noone uses citadel cruise. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
90
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 12:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
The skillpath from noob -> t2 large beam lasers (for example) is MUCH longer than the skillpath from noob -> t2 cruise launchers.
There are more TOTAL skillpoints in the missle tree than any ONE turret tree, but to train a specific weapon or launcher is MUCH less skillpoints for missles than turrets. |
Ryshca
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 12:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Once you trained 3 missile spec the advantages is gone. It is a good thing for such races as amarr and gallente which got a random ship with missiles. But still caldari and matar got to train all or most of them. It could be used as argument that you got equal sp, but still not more.
@Lallante: Don't tell me it is an advantages that you can skill t2 cruise without support skills, since you might be able to train it but you still have to train the support skills to use them.
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Nnamuachs
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 12:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:Controlled Bursts, true today, in the past projectils used cap too. But what do you mean with "applied only to guided missiles", we don't have unguided missiles in eve.
Rockets, Heavy Assault Missiles and Torpedos are considered "dumbfire" missiles. They are not effected by the guided missiles skill. |
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Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
372
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 13:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mark Hadden wrote:Gypsio III wrote:The only place where it's kinda screwed up is for capital missiles, where you have the worse of both worlds - having two separate capital missile skills that still require rank V in their large missile precursor. theoretically, practically, noone uses citadel cruise.
Which is convenient because no-one uses normal cruise either. |
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
773
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 14:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
missiles skills arn't too bad though it looks like a lot many of the skills are not needed for much.
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Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
252
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 16:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
You have to train small, medium, and large projectiles to 5 and all of the specializations to 4 to use T2 autocannons. You only have to train torpedoes or cruise missiles to 5 to use T2 torpedoes or cruise. |
Ryshca
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 16:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
It has been said already. But if you want to train torps and cruise spec, you need trops and cruise to lvl5, a rank5 and rank4 skill. For guns you have to bring a rank1, rank3 and a rank 5 skill to lvl5, spec skills only to lvl4 which is like nothing.
Beside that if you train cruise or torps you have to train medium and small missiles skills too, since you are most likely caldari. So you gain absolute nothing from the missing prerequirements, as showed above is this advantage gone as soon you train both anyway. |
Elisa Fir
Luminoctis
27
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 17:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
I suggest adding teh calculation on total training time for training both Large Autocannon Specialization and Large Artillery Specialization to Lvl IV.
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Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
94
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 17:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ryshca wrote:Once you trained 3 missile spec the advantages is gone. It is a good thing for such races as amarr and gallente which got a random ship with missiles. But still caldari and matar got to train all or most of them. It could be used as argument that you got equal sp, but still not more.
@Lallante: Don't tell me it is an advantages that you can skill t2 cruise without support skills, since you might be able to train it but you still have to train the support skills to use them.
@Mark Hadden: Don't levis use citadel cruise? Citadel cruise were also used the most of the time for dreads.
I dont think you understand how t2 turret training works.
Small Energy Turret (V), Medium Energy Turret (V), Small Beam Laser specialisation (IV) and Medium Beam Laser Specialisation (IV) are NOT support skill for Large Beam Laser specialisation, but they are pre-reqs! |
Xolve
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
1116
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 17:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Missile and Guns are not the same, and thus have different training requirements.
Its actually easier to get T2 Launchers than T2 Guns. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
233
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 17:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Missiles - Can train to a specific launcher quicker. Gunnery - More transferable once you get there.
You can get into t2 launchers much quicker than guns, especially at large sizes. Then of course you can cross-train into the other turret types, but thats not really an advantage is it, you don't need to cross train at all to use your missile skills on a sacreleige, ham legion, any bomber or the new bellicose. Nor to use auxilliary launchers at all. |
Ryshca
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 18:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thats the point, missiles are a minor weapon system and yet they still need more than major weapon systems.
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Archon Rhade
Blades of the Exiled Angel
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 02:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ryshca wrote:tl;dr: I am not sure, if this topic has been discussed already tousands of times, since it is so obvious. It is about the fact that you need 18 ranks, 4.608.000sp more for missiles skills than for a gun system.
Walloftext: All numbers are the rank of the skill. The rank says how much total sp you need for a skill, i.e.: rank 1 = 256k sp rank 2 = 2*256k sp = 256k sp rank 5 = 5*256k sp = 1280k sp
support
missile lau. operation1 target navi prediction 2 rapid launch2 missile bombardment2 missile projection4 warhead upgrades 5 guided missile prec5 total 20
gunnery1 controlled bursts2 motion prediction2 rapid firing2 sharpshooter2 surgical strike4 trajectory analysis5 total 18
In the support skills we got already a gap of 2 ranks, but while you can use the missile support skills only for one weapon system, you can use the gunnery support skills for three weapon system. Let's continue to have a look at weapons at all, as example i choosed projectile as gunnery skill. It can be replaced with lasers or hybrids, the ranks are the same:
small
Rocket 1 ________ spec 3 Light Missiles 2 ________ spec 3 total 9
s projectile 1 ________ spec 3 ________ spec 3 total 7
medium
heavy missile3 ________ spec 5 assault missile 3 ________ spec 5 total 16
m projectile 3 ________ spec 5 ________ spec 5 total 13
large
cruise missile5 ________ spec 8 torpedos4 ________ spec 8 total 25
l projectile5 ________ spec 8 ________ spec 8 total 21
capital
citadel cruise7 citadel torpedos7 total 14
capital projectiles7 total 7
Here we got a total gap of 16 ranks (4.096.000sp). small2 medium3 large4 capital7 total16 The specialization skills are inline with the gunnery skills again. But on the standard missile skills you need for each range, class a extra skill. If you look at the gunnery skills you need for each class one skill, which enables the long and short range gun. It ends threwith that you need to train twice so many standard missile skills as for the guns. Which ends in a gap of 16 total ranks which are still 4.096.000sp. Just a random sidenote, if you train for something like a matar dread you will end with using 21 ranks of skills for your weapons, 14ranks for missile and 7 for the gun. While the Caldari dread pilots need only 14 ranks while amarr and gallente dread pilots (the best dreads btw) only need 7 ranks to train for their weapons.
We also have total useless missile skills like the fof and defender missile with a total of 5 ranks, just on a site note.
History, how the missiles skilltree evolved: In the first days of eve missiles skills were different to guns. You just had the standard missile skill, which were more ranks to train but you had just a few support skills like missile launcher operation and rapid firing. So far so good. Back then missiles used to do always max damage on targets, but torpedos i.e. were to slow to catch fast ships like ceptors. They were just imba in pve, always max damage even with torps vs fr orbiting you ^^. Well that got changed with the implementing of explosion velocity. They gave us more support skills, which increased the explosion velocity and missile velocity at all. With these new support skills, missiles were almost inline with the gunnery support skills considering the ranks, only a gab of 2 ranks. But the negative aspect of missiles that you always had to train a skill for short and long range never got changed. I assume it just got forgotten that you have so much more to train and never got questioned again. How about fixing the ranks of missile skills, so it is balanced again to the gunnery skills?
PS: There are some unmentioned gunnery skills, but these are not being used exclusive for guns so i didn't list them.
First of all Capital projectiles arent really useful unless your in a Rag as the nag still needs to have missiles skills as well.
Second, Missile skills are used in every race. Turrets are race specific for the most part. |
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
24
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 15:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ryshca wrote:Thats the point, missiles are a minor weapon system and yet they still need more than major weapon systems.
only some are minor. up to the player to decide which ones to cut off and can save mad time. HML vs HAM for example. Several pvp corps I was in, hml drake. PVE, HML based drake/tengu. I did not actually train HAMs till 2.5 years into the game and only because I said screw it ...lets be OCD (and I will find reasons not to hit cap trains as I really don't have a strong interest them really lol). this saved me the 18ish days to HAM 5 and like waht 10 days to spec 4 in the early years.
Cruise missiles, same thing. Only t2'd them cause bored. Only ship I ran cruise on for pvp was a scorpion. It was there to jam and and ran remote reps since I had the high slots. Arbelest CL ran CN ammo (your standard fleet ammo) jsut fine. I wasn't there to dps with max rof. Was there to jam the crap out of people lol. PVE, an arbelest fit raven made me billions in 0.0.
You also have to look at what is needed and wanted for missile skill levels. Many of my missile support skills I have left at 4. My gun skills, some pita lv 5 trains there. I need more range on say a raven or tengu like I need another hole in the head. So all them skills that go to range, 4'd it as the old rule has been worth trainiing, worth training to 4.
My guns however I can easily justify squeezing out those 5's for more range, falloff, tracking, etc. |
Ryshca
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 10:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Archon Rhade wrote: First of all Capital projectiles arent really useful unless your in a Rag as the nag still needs to have missiles skills as well.
And? That makes it good then?
Archon Rhade wrote: Second, Missile skills are used in every race. Turrets are race specific for the most part.
Missiles are no main weapon still need more sp. Caldari is the only race which really needs missiles, all of them, since over the half of their ships need Missiles. Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar got how many missile ships, about 3 each out of how many? No statement to this argument, not that i didnt mention it already. |
Goldensaver
Vorbild Industries Inc. State Section 9
17
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 14:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
My only complaint about missiles is that they're my primary weapon skills, but I can't just train up a new weapon system, I need to train up a completely different set of support skills just to use other weapons. I wouldn't mind if they'd just homogenize things further (seems like all they're doing now anyways), and just remove missile skills and combine them with turret skills.
Then I'm not penalized by my decision, and have just as much choice to train up another weapon tree as anybody who started turrets. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
442
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 15:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:My only complaint about missiles is that they're my primary weapon skills, but I can't just train up a new weapon system, I need to train up a completely different set of support skills just to use other weapons. I wouldn't mind if they'd just homogenize things further (seems like all they're doing now anyways), and just remove missile skills and combine them with turret skills.
Then I'm not penalized by my decision, and have just as much choice to train up another weapon tree as anybody who started turrets.
"make things more teh same. eve is too difficult" |
Goldensaver
Vorbild Industries Inc. State Section 9
17
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 15:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Goldensaver wrote:My only complaint about missiles is that they're my primary weapon skills, but I can't just train up a new weapon system, I need to train up a completely different set of support skills just to use other weapons. I wouldn't mind if they'd just homogenize things further (seems like all they're doing now anyways), and just remove missile skills and combine them with turret skills.
Then I'm not penalized by my decision, and have just as much choice to train up another weapon tree as anybody who started turrets. "make things more teh same. eve is too difficult"
Naw, I was just making a commentary on how everything's getting homogenized these days. Everything's blending into the same damn thing. TE/TC/TD changes (I know they changed their mind on those, but it took 100-150 pages of *****ing and whining to make them stop) to make the VERY SAME THINGS affect missiles would have furthured the homogenization, and at that point, they might as well make missiles hit instantly, and suffer tracking penalties.
I really don't care, I have alts with guns. I just wanted to point out all these changes making everything the same. Soon armour and shield penalties probably won't even exist because of all the complaining about speed and agility (not unwarranted, just pointing it out), and we'll have ASB's and AAR's that do the exact same thing. Then we'll have resistance changes, and EANM's for shields, and Invulns for armour, etc.
I guess it was kinda heavily cloaked, my comment did seem a lot like *****ing. |
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
17
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 02:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
i don't think there is an imbalance here. galente are the only race that don't have at least some reasonable number of missilecentric ships. caldari can get away with not training turret skills at all if they are willing to forgo a few ships. minmatar ships frequently require both guns and missiles to be able to perform adequately and certain amarr ships specialize in them as well. missiles are a primary weapon system and their performance justifies the skill investment. |
Nnezu
Imperial Guardians Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 10:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
so you need ~2 mil SP sunk into small and med laser turrets even though you just wanted scorch/aurora on your oracle. I wish I could skip all those.It takes around 2 month to properly field T2 torps, yet it takes me way longer to just get the first T2 large turret.
And know what, no one cares. You will have the skills eventually, no need to mind those pretty differences. |
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