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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.03.07 12:15:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Arbenowskee
Vagabond... well its fast, that is about it.
...many people (including me... but it's just theoredically) will tell you that the vagabond is far better than just a fast cruiser. Althou it's true that doesn't dish out that much damage, it's also true that it has some good points, since it seems to be a nice autocannon platform.
The shield resits appear to be good for shield tanking, althou it would not leave any space for tackling.
Vagabond is a very specialized ship, and if you like lightning attacks and "get in, punch, get out" tactics, think the vaga suits you. It does have some cap problems thou (specially with a mwd), still AC's have bigger range than blasters, wich can be usefull, althou they don't deal that much damage, compared with blasters that is.
All in all, vaga is a small group skirmisher, not suited for fleet battles imho.
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Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Mahq Mur
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Posted - 2005.03.07 12:20:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kathulu
I was thinking if they ever come out with bs versions it would be could to have your skills already trained
Also instead of making another post what does every one think of the frig class assault ships. Its kinda weird or just laziness on ccp's part that tehy are the same ship not like the cruiser class ships
With all the increased CPU, PGrid, Resistance, HP etc. I'll like them the most.
I've been in a frigate for very long time which I can't tolerate slow ships, even like cruisers. Assault frigate will be my choice if I can affort one.
I just can't wait to try all my tech 2 stuff in them, mmmmmm.
Swoosh swoosh Frig!
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jason hill
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Posted - 2005.03.07 13:12:00 -
[33]
i recently managed to get my mits on an eagle .. and must confess that i was pleseantly suprised by it (i skipped the ferox ) although it is painfully slow ship its plus points are that I can lock at about 70-75kms.. and snipe quite effectivly at just 60 odd kms ive not pvp'd in it yet and ive only really used it in the system where I live (0.2) .. But its more than capable of handling the npc`s ..(hope i get the chance soon to test it on something a bit heavier soon)... the skill rqs for the hac's are a real bind imo but im please i trained it ...so I would say yes ...they are worth it 
"THE HUMAN SHIELD" |
Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.03.07 13:35:00 -
[34]
Ok I know a lot of ppl ***** about the Caldari HAC's being crap. But surely something to consider is that the Cerb/Eagle are using tech 1 weapons 
So all you gotta do is wait till **-**-**** (<Insert random date here + 1 year)
Just a thought (mebbe a stupid one mebbe not... meh)
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
'Give me a position of power and I'l abuse it in an instant' |
Wizard
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Posted - 2005.03.07 14:09:00 -
[35]
HACS are a lot of fun, saying 1 is better than the other proves you not thinking properly cos it all depends what the other guy and you have fitted/skills etc.
Ive personally only ever lost 1 in a 1 v 1 and it was a sacrelige to the vexor hac which imo is the best hac to use against another hac ( it will always win flown by competent pilot ).
Diemos i personally think is not to gd.
And people saying what ranges are best for each ship is fubar except the diemos which should only be used close range for best results.
If i jump in a zealot i can hit 130km if i want or 200metres all depends what i want to fight.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.03.07 21:31:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Typherin laidai
Ok I know a lot of ppl ***** about the Caldari HAC's being crap. But surely something to consider is that the Cerb/Eagle are using tech 1 weapons
So all you gotta do is wait till **-**-**** (<Insert random date here + 1 year)
Just a thought (mebbe a stupid one mebbe not... meh)
I believe this sums it up nicely. When and If CCP ever gets around to fixing missles and bring out the T2 mods for them. I believe you will see the Caldari HAC scare the living sh1t out of ppl.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.03.07 22:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Wizard
Ive personally only ever lost 1 in a 1 v 1 and it was a sacrelige to the vexor hac which imo is the best hac to use against another hac ( it will always win flown by competent pilot ).
The Ishtar is awesome yes but every ship has it's achilles heel.
That is, if it's not using ECM, if so, then gtfo
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MadGaz
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Posted - 2005.03.07 23:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
HACs are a load of fun as long as u have the ISK and skills to throw at them. Personally, I fly deimos and Ishtar...love 'em both.
Originally by: MadGaz
Definetly worth getting a heavy assault if you like flying around in cruisers. I've mainly used my zealot for pvp since I've got it.
grrr And I almost blew up your Zealot yesterday...you got away tho.
No your FLEET only got me to half armour, I was already aligned and the tacklers must have been asleep 
The Merc fleet got me to half struc though
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1man army
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Posted - 2005.03.07 23:53:00 -
[39]
I've fought against a deimos in my sacrilege and beat it, it is a standard setup i always use, nothing fancy just for that fight. i'm more afraid of a ishtar than pretty much any other HAC, while in my sacrilege. i have both a zealot and a sacrilege, i'd rather take the sac into pvp than my zealot.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.03.08 04:43:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Arbenowskee
Vagabond... well its fast, that is about it.
...many people (including me... but it's just theoredically) will tell you that the vagabond is far better than just a fast cruiser. Althou it's true that doesn't dish out that much damage, it's also true that it has some good points, since it seems to be a nice autocannon platform.
just a few thing about the Vagabond and Muninn:
vagabond:
first off - to say that it tanks poorly is dishonest... it really depend on what you trying to do... you can have decent shield tank and do ok tackling, or an great shield tank if you have a tackler. Also - it easily handles 300dps (raw) with said tank (Weirda not have tech II on there yet either). Certainly you can do much better then that if you really want.
DPS wise - it is far from poor... especially considering that you are dealing that damage across 3 types and with a web can keep opponents in a very awkward range.
muninn:
2005.03.07 05:31:24 combat Your 720mm Gallium I Cannon perfectly strikes Sansha's Lord, wrecking for 748.4 damage.
Gallium - rofl - and we talking proton ammo too. 
Yes - this ship have a crap for tank, but with a tackler, you can still tank (a little), and without, well, you have to choose you targets wisely. ( s are nice - but the always run - so you really do need the tackler)
Anyhow - looking forward to getting more HAC soon... (only wish hadn't spend to much time on bs skills)
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Thread Killer
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jamesw
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Posted - 2005.03.08 04:54:00 -
[41]
jamesw nosses you all and waves bye bye as the torpedoes hit.
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jamesw
Rubra Libertas Militia
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.03.08 05:22:00 -
[42]
Originally by: jamesw
jamesw nosses you all and waves bye bye as the torpedoes hit.
jamesw quits game when missiles get nerfed and god button removed... 
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Thread Killer
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MadGaz
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Posted - 2005.03.08 12:00:00 -
[43]
Originally by: jamesw
jamesw nosses you all and waves bye bye as the torpedoes hit.
Doubt that would affect a sacri much, unless you have 3 or more heavy nos.
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Elaine Threepwood
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Posted - 2005.03.08 13:33:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Selim
Muninn can't tank for ****, and doesnt do THAT good damage
A Muninn can do over 700DPS.
Seriously... how? Calculating it with all level 5 skills, 5 425mm autocannon II, 2 arbalest heavy launchers, 5 medium drones, and 5 gyrostab IIs, I got it to come out at something like 570 dps. I can't think of a more damaging config than that right now... So either I missed something on the config, I made a mistake, or you are making stuff up
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.08 14:37:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Selim on 08/03/2005 14:39:42
He is making it up. Even with officer guns you wont do 700 dps. Muninn = suck
Vagabond would be good with an extra midslot like the ishtar gets. And cap recharge reduction. Why the deimos recharges as fast as one is beyond me.
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.03.08 14:42:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Muninn can't tank for ****
It can shield tank quite fine ... if you are a bit clever with your fitting.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.08 14:56:00 -
[47]
3 medslots makes a pitiful shield tank, and shield tanking is crap on cruisers, as well as overall. Its obviously meant to armor tank but its got less slots than the other armor tankers and less cap, poor resists for it etc.
Its funny how everyone mentions how the muninn has one less mid/low than the others because it has an extra high... that extra high means nothing because it doesnt do that good damage anyway. 700+ dps? Puhlease. It can't outdamage a deimos, it can't outtank one either. Whats the catch?
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.03.08 15:07:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Selim
3 medslots makes a pitiful shield tank, and shield tanking is crap on cruisers, as well as overall. Its obviously meant to armor tank but its got less slots than the other armor tankers and less cap, poor resists for it etc.
What you just said: It has less slots than other armor tanks and poorer restistances... yet it's obviously meant to armor tank.
Do you think before you type or do you just spew nonsense just to post?
I can see how 3 medslots can be very confusing but do try to actually fit properly.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Shirei
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Posted - 2005.03.08 15:09:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Elaine Threepwood
Seriously... how? Calculating it with all level 5 skills, 5 425mm autocannon II, 2 arbalest heavy launchers, 5 medium drones, and 5 gyrostab IIs, I got it to come out at something like 570 dps. I can't think of a more damaging config than that right now... So either I missed something on the config, I made a mistake, or you are making stuff up
Maybe 5 domination gyros or something silly like that. Not that there'd be much of a point of fitting those on a Muninn..
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.08 15:25:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Juan Andalusian
Originally by: Selim
3 medslots makes a pitiful shield tank, and shield tanking is crap on cruisers, as well as overall. Its obviously meant to armor tank but its got less slots than the other armor tankers and less cap, poor resists for it etc.
What you just said: It has less slots than other armor tanks and poorer restistances... yet it's obviously meant to armor tank.
Do you think before you type or do you just spew nonsense just to post?
I can see how 3 medslots can be very confusing but do try to actually fit properly.
Its obviously meant to armor tank because it has alot more armor than shields, and more lowslots than mids. Does that make sense? I've shield tanked with 3 midslots before btw, I just don't think its worth it to use all your midslots for tanking. And I have quite an opinion on shield tanking for cruisers (it sucks).
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.03.08 15:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Selim
Its obviously meant to armor tank because it has alot more armor than shields,
Common misconception number 1.
Quote:
and more lowslots than mids.
Common misconception number 2. Though this mostly concerns the Muninn, but it can apply to General shield tanking.
Quote:
I've shield tanked with 3 midslots before btw, I just don't think its worth it to use all your midslots for tanking.
So it's worth using all your meds on an Apoc to help you Armor Tank... it's worth using all your meds on a Raven to Shield Tank.... but it's not worth using 3 meds on the Muninn to shield tank.... i think i see your point there.... not.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.08 15:45:00 -
[52]
On a cruiser, midslots are much better used for other things than tanking. If you want to just tank and deal damage why bother using a heavy cruiser? Use a battleship and get the job done better. Otherwise, you'll fit your mids with things like webs, tracking computers, and whatnot. That is why I think shield tanking on cruisers sucks, cruisers just aren't made for tanking and the only way they can be of much use is with support modules and EW-type modules.
BTW, with your logic, the zealot is a good shield tank. Do you think the zealot would be a good shield tank? I don't think so.
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Ayms
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Posted - 2005.03.08 17:53:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Ayms on 08/03/2005 17:53:59
The Minmatar T2 ships, that have the T2 resistances, have the best natural shield resists, so you can shield tank without hardners. That means you can do quite well with 3 slots. I haven't done the maths, but possibly a large extender would do wonders. With a low shield HP, it makes the impact of extenders better than on high HP ships. And since the recharge is fixed, and adjusted to the stock shield size, it should recharge well. And that's just one mid slot. A couple of PDU2s low and go.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.03.08 17:58:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Selim
Edited by: Selim on 08/03/2005 14:39:42
He is making it up. Even with officer guns you wont do 700 dps. Muninn = suck
Vagabond would be good with an extra midslot like the ishtar gets. And cap recharge reduction. Why the deimos recharges as fast as one is beyond me.
I don't make **** up.
I have a pal who cranks 726DPS out of his Muninn. He has a few dom gyros but those only add 2.5% damage which is really fractional with the stacking penalties in place.
He doesn't use officer guns.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.08 18:47:00 -
[55]
Mind telling this wonder setup then?  Because I'm baffled.
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AlphA13
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Posted - 2005.03.08 19:18:00 -
[56]
I would love to have the problems of a muninn .. ever heard about a cerberus .. donŠt come with tI missles , ever compared TI standart gear for dmg/s on every other Hac ?? They do a lot more dmg ...
beside that and my wrong training ( jep mech will come and tell go for elite eagle ) Hac are pure fun
In two days tomorrow will be yesterday |
Namelesz
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Posted - 2005.03.08 19:32:00 -
[57]
why do you all have to tank? all i see here is "it cant shield tank so it has to armor tank, or it cant armor tank so it has to shield tank"
Maybe it shouldnt tank at all, just deal out damage and be quick about it.
Sure we all wish we can make all ships be like an Apoc and deal out the damage and still armor tank like crazy, or like a Raven and uber-shield tank and still have all high slots full of offense. But does every ship have to be some sort of tank????
-Namelesz
"I never run away. I merely advance in the opposite direction." -Judicator
"She was so dumb, the smartest thing to ever come out of her mouth was my *****." |
Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.08 20:19:00 -
[58]
Because sometimes tanking actually matters? And some of us are sick of the damn gank setups taking over EVE.
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OVERCOPES 1
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Posted - 2005.03.08 21:58:00 -
[59]
Originally by: slothe
Originally by: The Chef
Edited by: The Chef on 06/03/2005 15:26:24
Originally by: Sorja
I witnessed a Deimos going down to 6 standard frigates in under a minute though, so don't be afraid to lose a cruiser
I witnessed 6 standard frigates go down to a Deimos in under a minute, which just goes to show its all about the pilots and the fittings :-)
an ishtar can own a deimos, a snip for 45 mill ;)
ishtar for 45 mill,whos your supplier?
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Baun
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Posted - 2005.03.08 22:55:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Baun on 08/03/2005 22:58:17
Edited by: Baun on 08/03/2005 22:55:34
Originally by: Selim
Ishtar > Deimos > Zealot > Sacrilege > Vagabond > Muninn > Eagle > Cerberus
In terms of survivability, which I consider as the average of damage dealing ability + ability to withstand fire for long.
A Munnin can (rather easily) get a 19x dmg mod on 720 IIs. If that isnt good damange then i dont know what is.
As far as survivability I think your idea is a tad messed up. Any close range ship has a very low survivability (which is why you need to be careful) so I would stick the Deimos at the bottom and the Vagabond next to it (its alot faster so it has better survivability). My rationale here is that close range ships are the most vulnerable to nosferatus, webs, and missles and that survivability thus scales with range and the ability to tank. I am sure you could argue this the other way around and discuss how range puts you in the killzone of 1400mms but we can debate that if you want later ;p.
A Sacrilege is by far the best tank out of the HACs presuming it is setup for it with the Ishtar a close second. An Eagle has a very nice defensive bonus and its optimal is insane so that puts it just under the uber tanks in terms of survivability. The rest depend entirely on the ship's setup as a Zealot can be an insane armor tank, a munnin *can* really shield tank and a Cerberus could either be paper thin with ECM mids or a quasi decent tank. In any case id probably rate all three of these roughly equal.
So
Sacrilege > Ishtar > Eagle > Ceberus > Munnin > Zealot > Vagabond > Deimos
In terms of survivablity.
An interesting note is that with the exception of the Ishtar and the Vagabond this scale is bassically inversely proportional to damage, which indicative of proper balancing (an Ishtar does alot of damage with 14-15 heavy drones and the Vagabond does not do enough damange to warrant such a low survivability).
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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