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Kathulu	Posted - 2005.03.06 13:10:00 - [1] Are the Heavey assault cruisers worth getting seein that there is alot of skill training involed in getting to the point of useing them.
Grut	Posted - 2005.03.06 13:20:00 - [2] Originally by: Kathulu Are the Heavey assault cruisers worth getting seein that there is alot of skill training involed in getting to the point of useing them. Their prettymuch as powerful as bs, but a hell of alot more fun to fly Mostly harmless
slothe	Posted - 2005.03.06 13:52:00 - [3] there as tough as a bs but their firepower is not as good. there fun to fly i agree, but id describe them as niche ships, a useful addition to a fleet for a particular role. Say hello on our forum @www.aserea.com or join our public channel ingame "MLM Public" http://www.khainestar.com/eve
pshepherd	Posted - 2005.03.06 14:03:00 - [4] how good are the Caldari Heavy assault ships?
Sorja	Posted - 2005.03.06 14:42:00 - [5] After the missile overhaul patch, the Cerberus will be a fantastic ship, provided heavy missiles get the long awaited speed boost they deserve. Until then, well... NAGA sells Eagles at 55 Mio, and you won't have long to wait to get one, unlike a Deimos If CCP ever balances cruisers out, decreasing their weight and increasing their agility, the main point flying an assault is because you are truly in love with cruisers and want to have fun in a truly unique ship. I witnessed a Deimos going down to 6 standard frigates in under a minute though, so don't be afraid to lose a cruiser
The Chef	Posted - 2005.03.06 15:26:00 - [6] Edited by: The Chef on 06/03/2005 15:26:24 Originally by: Sorja I witnessed a Deimos going down to 6 standard frigates in under a minute though, so don't be afraid to lose a cruiser I witnessed 6 standard frigates go down to a Deimos in under a minute, which just goes to show its all about the pilots and the fittings :-) ==================================== EVEkill Visit our homepage
slothe	Posted - 2005.03.06 15:55:00 - [7] Originally by: The Chef Edited by: The Chef on 06/03/2005 15:26:24 Originally by: Sorja I witnessed a Deimos going down to 6 standard frigates in under a minute though, so don't be afraid to lose a cruiser I witnessed 6 standard frigates go down to a Deimos in under a minute, which just goes to show its all about the pilots and the fittings :-) an ishtar can own a deimos, a snip for 45 mill ;) Say hello on our forum @www.aserea.com or join our public channel ingame "MLM Public" http://www.khainestar.com/eve
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.03.06 16:08:00 - [8] Definetly worth getting a heavy assault if you like flying around in cruisers. I've mainly used my zealot for pvp since I've got it. ------------------------------------------
Niaski Zalani	Posted - 2005.03.06 23:28:00 - [9] HACs are a load of fun as long as u have the ISK and skills to throw at them. Personally, I fly deimos and Ishtar...love 'em both. Originally by: MadGaz Definetly worth getting a heavy assault if you like flying around in cruisers. I've mainly used my zealot for pvp since I've got it. grrr And I almost blew up your Zealot yesterday...you got away tho. yarr?
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.07 00:51:00 - [10] Ishtar > Deimos > Zealot > Sacrilege > Vagabond > Muninn > Eagle > Cerberus In terms of survivability, which I consider as the average of damage dealing ability + ability to withstand fire for long.
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.03.07 01:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Selim Ishtar > Deimos > Zealot > Sacrilege > Vagabond > Muninn > Eagle > Cerberus In terms of survivability, which I consider as the average of damage dealing ability + ability to withstand fire for long. Removed - Saucerhead
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.07 03:12:00 - [12] Why don't you try proving me wrong? Muninn can't tank for **, and doesnt do THAT good damage, vagabond cant tank for ** and does even less, cerberus sucks, Eagle is only good for sniping. Try and prove that wrong, prove that its actually the gallente ones that suck.
Lansfear	Posted - 2005.03.07 03:16:00 - [13] Extremely fun ships. Definitely worth the training.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.07 03:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Selim Muninn can't tank for ****, and doesnt do THAT good damage A Muninn can do over 700DPS. ________________________________________________________
Urza Rast	Posted - 2005.03.07 03:31:00 - [15] So Zealot is better then the Sacrilege? Why? Working to get into one of them right now 2 more weeks :)
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.07 03:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Selim Muninn can't tank for ****, and doesnt do THAT good damage A Muninn can do over 700DPS. Deimos can do more, and has better overall resistances. Deimos can tank good, Muninn cannot. Muninn only has 5 lowslots, and 2 extra missile launchers means jack since you can't do any decent damage with them. Muninn isnt even that fast. Besides, if you use autocannons its optimal bonus is useless, its an artillery boat... and artillery is very hard to fit, especially with a gank setup. Its getting kind of old with these gank setups anyway. Nobody pays attention to tanking ability anymore.
Kathulu	Posted - 2005.03.07 04:16:00 - [17] I was looking at the Ishtar at lvl 5 heavey assault you can get 20 or so ogers in the bay if i am doing my math right so you will have 15 out with 5 backups and set the ship up with either a vamp or sniper no clue yet haven't started the long research yet still got 7 days left on mark 5 industral shippy
Hyey	Posted - 2005.03.07 04:43:00 - [18] Originally by: Selim Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Selim Muninn can't tank for **, and doesnt do THAT good damage A Muninn can do over 700DPS. Deimos can do more, and has better overall resistances. Deimos can tank good, Muninn cannot. Muninn only has 5 lowslots, and 2 extra missile launchers means jack since you can't do any decent damage with them. Muninn isnt even that fast. Besides, if you use autocannons its optimal bonus is useless, its an artillery boat... and artillery is very hard to fit, especially with a gank setup. Its getting kind of old with these gank setups anyway. Nobody pays attention to tanking ability anymore. Yes a Deimos can do more if it gets into "In your face" range that is. But I do agree that the Muninn cant really umm tank. Ive been saying all along that Minmatar should be born shield tankers, not just because of Assault Ship resis because of what CCP gave bonus wise to the cyclone for instance. Switch my mid and low slots or something :/. ~~ Hyey** I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
Kaylona Tso	Posted - 2005.03.07 04:49:00 - [19] I think the munin looks to be bad ass. That ship, and the cyclone are the only ships worthy to use 650/720 IIs with added bonus. Its not going to go into gallente space and own NPCs or rats, but it can certainly go into sansha and blood space and tank while you blast the she-ite out of the NPCs. Think the typhoon is better but only for a wingman setup. Solo I would go for a munin. Can't really say about any other ship but they all look neat. -----
Mahq Mur	Posted - 2005.03.07 07:38:00 - [20] Say Kathulu, I suppose you want to use the Ishtar right? Atm, I suggest you use your Vexor to do every damn mission or npc fighting. Face different opponents that may be larger than you (I don't say stronger ) like BS. When you begin to realize the limitation of your Vexor, then ask yourself what it should be enhanced? Can Ishtar overcome the limitation? If not, I think you r better off considering other ships (I didn't mention BS, did I? ). Blindly learn the skill just to pilot a heavy assault ship doesn't help you much, instead you'll be very disappointed and start cursing ccp. So, do you think worth it?
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2005.03.07 08:06:00 - [21] Yes they can be fun... stuff happens fast when you fly a HAC, so be alert.
Rex Martell	Posted - 2005.03.07 08:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Selim Why don't you try proving me wrong? Muninn can't tank for **, and doesnt do THAT good damage, vagabond cant tank for ** and does even less, cerberus sucks, Eagle is only good for sniping. Try and prove that wrong, prove that its actually the gallente ones that suck. At anything other than point blank range the eagle can out gun the average Damos. The Eagle is an extremly versatile ship look at its bonuses and think out side the BOX. Cerberus can tank like a Raven. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his"
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.03.07 08:17:00 - [23] Originally by: Rex Martell Originally by: Selim Why don't you try proving me wrong? Muninn can't tank for **, and doesnt do THAT good damage, vagabond cant tank for ** and does even less, cerberus sucks, Eagle is only good for sniping. Try and prove that wrong, prove that its actually the gallente ones that suck. At anything other than point blank range the eagle can out gun the average Damos. The Eagle is an extremly versatile ship look at its bonuses and think out side the BOX. Cerberus can tank like a Raven. B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.07 08:34:00 - [24] I dont get it, first he talks about operational advantages, then states that a ship that overshadows the longer range operation area of the zealot on the long end is superior than the most damaging ship, which has a slight raw damage advantage, when fitted with close range guns when compared to the muinin. I am totally confused at this point. So if a ship that does less damage than the close range ships is better, but does more damage in the mid->long range of the zealot, then why exactly are the heavy pulse when used in conjunction with the zealot out of balance? ARgh my head hurts now....
Lorth	Posted - 2005.03.07 08:38:00 - [25] Assult ships can be a lot of fun, or a royal pain in the arse. First, you need to remember your not invonrable. You aling for warp slow, and don't move all that fast to begin with. Also, they cost somewhere in the region of 70-100 mill, and only insure for 20. It not somthing you want to fly if you don't have a steady source of income. However. They are down right cool. Not many people have them, nor will they be as common as interceptors are based on thier long skill training. Also if properly flown and set up you can go toe to toe with anything cept a raven and have a reasonable chance of winning. They are a toy, but a damn fun one. Remember its only pretend money. So if you want something thats cool, differant, and effective then yes. If you care about having a lot of isk, or simply want the most powerfull ship out there then no.
Arbenowskee	Posted - 2005.03.07 08:45:00 - [26] Deimos, Munin and Zealot are the damage dealers. Deimos up close, Munin from "far" away, and Zealot in mid range. Vagabond... well its fast, that is about it. Ishtar is suppose to be every tacticians wet dream since it has very nice slot layout: 5/5/5. Only 3 guns tough, but can unleash a swarm of drones. Sacrlige is the best tank ingame because of its resistances. Eagle... well its a sniping ship, but because of its low dmg u can only "snipe" smaller ships. A tackler is a must. Cerberus is a "long range" missile spammer. But it has low dmg and missiles take forever to hit, so it's not realy long rangeish. Every race (except caldari) has at least one (ammar and gallente have 2) good HAC. Wait for the missile changes, EW overhaul and laser nerf with training, 'cause i have a feeling that things are about to change :) Changes may boost cerberus and **** up deimos and zealot.
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.07 08:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Arbenowskee Deimos, Munin and Zealot are the damage dealers. Deimos up close, Munin from "far" away, and Zealot in mid range. Vagabond... well its fast, that is about it. Ishtar is suppose to be every tacticians wet dream since it has very nice slot layout: 5/5/5. Only 3 guns tough, but can unleash a swarm of drones. Sacrlige is the best tank ingame because of its resistances. Eagle... well its a sniping ship, but because of its low dmg u can only "snipe" smaller ships. A tackler is a must. Cerberus is a "long range" missile spammer. But it has low dmg and missiles take forever to hit, so it's not realy long rangeish. Every race (except caldari) has at least one (ammar and gallente have 2) good HAC. Wait for the missile changes, EW overhaul and laser nerf with training, 'cause i have a feeling that things are about to change :) Changes may boost cerberus and **** up deimos and zealot. Well thats pretty much true, most setups that seem useful for the sacrilage for instance, dont involve using either of the inherent laser bonuses. Not sure how the changes in ammo will affect the eagle, if at all, nor am i familiar enough with projectiles to even guess. The EW though would seem to favor a ship trying to close the distance though, with the new web ranges.
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2005.03.07 09:55:00 - [28] Personally i like the Deimos alot, but with current situation the Zealot performs better: Gankalot from 20km away, while your deimos cannot get near it. I also have the munnin and the vagabond, but i cannot get a setup that is worth flying a ship 55m worth. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Kathulu	Posted - 2005.03.07 10:31:00 - [29] I was thinking if they ever come out with bs versions it would be could to have your skills already trained Also instead of making another post what does every one think of the frig class assault ships. Its kinda weird or just laziness on ccp's part that tehy are the same ship not like the cruiser class ships
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.03.07 10:46:00 - [30] Edited by: Ithildin on 07/03/2005 10:49:30 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Selim Muninn can't tank for ****, and doesnt do THAT good damage A Muninn can do over 700DPS. Hmm... I am very interested in finding out exactly how this was calculated. I do know that a Mega Pulse (tech 1) armageddon loaded with 8 damage mods (tech 2) caps out it's damage (level 5 skills) at around 900 (with mulifrequency). I also know that a Deimos with 2 damage mods II and 5 Electron Blaster II at level 1 Spec and level 3 HAC does about 330 damage per second. EDIT: Hmm, damage mod of avarage 8 over a timeframe of 1.5 seconds and it's doable for the Munnin, I think... -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.03.07 12:15:00 - [31] Originally by: Arbenowskee Vagabond... well its fast, that is about it. ...many people (including me... but it's just theoredically) will tell you that the vagabond is far better than just a fast cruiser. Althou it's true that doesn't dish out that much damage, it's also true that it has some good points, since it seems to be a nice autocannon platform. The shield resits appear to be good for shield tanking, althou it would not leave any space for tackling. Vagabond is a very specialized ship, and if you like lightning attacks and "get in, punch, get out" tactics, think the vaga suits you. It does have some cap problems thou (specially with a mwd), still AC's have bigger range than blasters, wich can be usefull, althou they don't deal that much damage, compared with blasters that is. All in all, vaga is a small group skirmisher, not suited for fleet battles imho. ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
Mahq Mur	Posted - 2005.03.07 12:20:00 - [32] Originally by: Kathulu I was thinking if they ever come out with bs versions it would be could to have your skills already trained Also instead of making another post what does every one think of the frig class assault ships. Its kinda weird or just laziness on ccp's part that tehy are the same ship not like the cruiser class ships With all the increased CPU, PGrid, Resistance, HP etc. I'll like them the most. I've been in a frigate for very long time which I can't tolerate slow ships, even like cruisers. Assault frigate will be my choice if I can affort one. I just can't wait to try all my tech 2 stuff in them, mmmmmm. Swoosh swoosh Frig!
jason hill	Posted - 2005.03.07 13:12:00 - [33] i recently managed to get my mits on an eagle .. and must confess that i was pleseantly suprised by it (i skipped the ferox ) although it is painfully slow ship its plus points are that I can lock at about 70-75kms.. and snipe quite effectivly at just 60 odd kms ive not pvp'd in it yet and ive only really used it in the system where I live (0.2) .. But its more than capable of handling the npc`s ..(hope i get the chance soon to test it on something a bit heavier soon)... the skill rqs for the hac's are a real bind imo but im please i trained it ...so I would say yes ...they are worth it "THE HUMAN SHIELD"
Typherin laidai	Posted - 2005.03.07 13:35:00 - [34] Ok I know a lot of ppl *** about the Caldari HAC's being crap. But surely something to consider is that the Cerb/Eagle are using tech 1 weapons So all you gotta do is wait till -- (<Insert random date here + 1 year) Just a thought (mebbe a stupid one mebbe not... meh) Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5** 'Give me a position of power and I'l abuse it in an instant'
Wizard	Posted - 2005.03.07 14:09:00 - [35] HACS are a lot of fun, saying 1 is better than the other proves you not thinking properly cos it all depends what the other guy and you have fitted/skills etc. Ive personally only ever lost 1 in a 1 v 1 and it was a sacrelige to the vexor hac which imo is the best hac to use against another hac ( it will always win flown by competent pilot ). Diemos i personally think is not to gd. And people saying what ranges are best for each ship is fubar except the diemos which should only be used close range for best results. If i jump in a zealot i can hit 130km if i want or 200metres all depends what i want to fight.
xenorx	Posted - 2005.03.07 21:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Typherin laidai Ok I know a lot of ppl *** about the Caldari HAC's being crap. But surely something to consider is that the Cerb/Eagle are using tech 1 weapons So all you gotta do is wait till --** (<Insert random date here + 1 year) Just a thought (mebbe a stupid one mebbe not... meh) I believe this sums it up nicely. When and If CCP ever gets around to fixing missles and bring out the T2 mods for them. I believe you will see the Caldari HAC scare the living sh1t out of ppl.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.07 22:01:00 - [37] Originally by: Wizard Ive personally only ever lost 1 in a 1 v 1 and it was a sacrelige to the vexor hac which imo is the best hac to use against another hac ( it will always win flown by competent pilot ). The Ishtar is awesome yes but every ship has it's achilles heel. That is, if it's not using ECM, if so, then gtfo ________________________________________________________
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.03.07 23:34:00 - [38] Originally by: Niaski Zalani HACs are a load of fun as long as u have the ISK and skills to throw at them. Personally, I fly deimos and Ishtar...love 'em both. Originally by: MadGaz Definetly worth getting a heavy assault if you like flying around in cruisers. I've mainly used my zealot for pvp since I've got it. grrr And I almost blew up your Zealot yesterday...you got away tho. No your FLEET only got me to half armour, I was already aligned and the tacklers must have been asleep The Merc fleet got me to half struc though ------------------------------------------
1man army	Posted - 2005.03.07 23:53:00 - [39] I've fought against a deimos in my sacrilege and beat it, it is a standard setup i always use, nothing fancy just for that fight. i'm more afraid of a ishtar than pretty much any other HAC, while in my sacrilege. i have both a zealot and a sacrilege, i'd rather take the sac into pvp than my zealot. -----------------
Weirda	Posted - 2005.03.08 04:43:00 - [40] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Arbenowskee Vagabond... well its fast, that is about it. ...many people (including me... but it's just theoredically) will tell you that the vagabond is far better than just a fast cruiser. Althou it's true that doesn't dish out that much damage, it's also true that it has some good points, since it seems to be a nice autocannon platform. just a few thing about the Vagabond and Muninn: vagabond: first off - to say that it tanks poorly is dishonest... it really depend on what you trying to do... you can have decent shield tank and do ok tackling, or an great shield tank if you have a tackler. Also - it easily handles 300dps (raw) with said tank (Weirda not have tech II on there yet either). Certainly you can do much better then that if you really want. DPS wise - it is far from poor... especially considering that you are dealing that damage across 3 types and with a web can keep opponents in a very awkward range. muninn: 2005.03.07 05:31:24 combat Your 720mm Gallium I Cannon perfectly strikes Sansha's Lord, wrecking for 748.4 damage. Gallium - rofl - and we talking proton ammo too. Yes - this ship have a crap for tank, but with a tackler, you can still tank (a little), and without, well, you have to choose you targets wisely. (s are nice - but the always run - so you really do need the tackler) Anyhow - looking forward to getting more HAC soon... (only wish hadn't spend to much time on bs skills) -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSION>
jamesw	Posted - 2005.03.08 04:54:00 - [41] jamesw nosses you all and waves bye bye as the torpedoes hit. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
Weirda	Posted - 2005.03.08 05:22:00 - [42] Originally by: jamesw jamesw nosses you all and waves bye bye as the torpedoes hit. jamesw quits game when missiles get nerfed and god button removed... -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSION>
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:00:00 - [43] Originally by: jamesw jamesw nosses you all and waves bye bye as the torpedoes hit. Doubt that would affect a sacri much, unless you have 3 or more heavy nos. ------------------------------------------
Elaine Threepwood	Posted - 2005.03.08 13:33:00 - [44] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Selim Muninn can't tank for ****, and doesnt do THAT good damage A Muninn can do over 700DPS. Seriously... how? Calculating it with all level 5 skills, 5 425mm autocannon II, 2 arbalest heavy launchers, 5 medium drones, and 5 gyrostab IIs, I got it to come out at something like 570 dps. I can't think of a more damaging config than that right now... So either I missed something on the config, I made a mistake, or you are making stuff up
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.08 14:37:00 - [45] Edited by: Selim on 08/03/2005 14:39:42 He is making it up. Even with officer guns you wont do 700 dps. Muninn = suck Vagabond would be good with an extra midslot like the ishtar gets. And cap recharge reduction. Why the deimos recharges as fast as one is beyond me.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.03.08 14:42:00 - [46] Quote: Muninn can't tank for ** It can shield tank quite fine ... if you are a bit clever with your fitting. Pain is meant to be felt**
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.08 14:56:00 - [47] 3 medslots makes a pitiful shield tank, and shield tanking is crap on cruisers, as well as overall. Its obviously meant to armor tank but its got less slots than the other armor tankers and less cap, poor resists for it etc. Its funny how everyone mentions how the muninn has one less mid/low than the others because it has an extra high... that extra high means nothing because it doesnt do that good damage anyway. 700+ dps? Puhlease. It can't outdamage a deimos, it can't outtank one either. Whats the catch?
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.03.08 15:07:00 - [48] Originally by: Selim 3 medslots makes a pitiful shield tank, and shield tanking is crap on cruisers, as well as overall. Its obviously meant to armor tank but its got less slots than the other armor tankers and less cap, poor resists for it etc. What you just said: It has less slots than other armor tanks and poorer restistances... yet it's obviously meant to armor tank. Do you think before you type or do you just spew nonsense just to post? I can see how 3 medslots can be very confusing but do try to actually fit properly. Pain is meant to be felt
Shirei	Posted - 2005.03.08 15:09:00 - [49] Originally by: Elaine Threepwood Seriously... how? Calculating it with all level 5 skills, 5 425mm autocannon II, 2 arbalest heavy launchers, 5 medium drones, and 5 gyrostab IIs, I got it to come out at something like 570 dps. I can't think of a more damaging config than that right now... So either I missed something on the config, I made a mistake, or you are making stuff up Maybe 5 domination gyros or something silly like that. Not that there'd be much of a point of fitting those on a Muninn..
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.08 15:25:00 - [50] Originally by: Juan Andalusian Originally by: Selim 3 medslots makes a pitiful shield tank, and shield tanking is crap on cruisers, as well as overall. Its obviously meant to armor tank but its got less slots than the other armor tankers and less cap, poor resists for it etc. What you just said: It has less slots than other armor tanks and poorer restistances... yet it's obviously meant to armor tank. Do you think before you type or do you just spew nonsense just to post? I can see how 3 medslots can be very confusing but do try to actually fit properly. Its obviously meant to armor tank because it has alot more armor than shields, and more lowslots than mids. Does that make sense? I've shield tanked with 3 midslots before btw, I just don't think its worth it to use all your midslots for tanking. And I have quite an opinion on shield tanking for cruisers (it sucks).
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.03.08 15:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Selim Its obviously meant to armor tank because it has alot more armor than shields, Common misconception number 1. Quote: and more lowslots than mids. Common misconception number 2. Though this mostly concerns the Muninn, but it can apply to General shield tanking. Quote: I've shield tanked with 3 midslots before btw, I just don't think its worth it to use all your midslots for tanking. So it's worth using all your meds on an Apoc to help you Armor Tank... it's worth using all your meds on a Raven to Shield Tank.... but it's not worth using 3 meds on the Muninn to shield tank.... i think i see your point there.... not. Pain is meant to be felt
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.08 15:45:00 - [52] On a cruiser, midslots are much better used for other things than tanking. If you want to just tank and deal damage why bother using a heavy cruiser? Use a battleship and get the job done better. Otherwise, you'll fit your mids with things like webs, tracking computers, and whatnot. That is why I think shield tanking on cruisers sucks, cruisers just aren't made for tanking and the only way they can be of much use is with support modules and EW-type modules. BTW, with your logic, the zealot is a good shield tank. Do you think the zealot would be a good shield tank? I don't think so.
Ayms	Posted - 2005.03.08 17:53:00 - [53] Edited by: Ayms on 08/03/2005 17:53:59 The Minmatar T2 ships, that have the T2 resistances, have the best natural shield resists, so you can shield tank without hardners. That means you can do quite well with 3 slots. I haven't done the maths, but possibly a large extender would do wonders. With a low shield HP, it makes the impact of extenders better than on high HP ships. And since the recharge is fixed, and adjusted to the stock shield size, it should recharge well. And that's just one mid slot. A couple of PDU2s low and go.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.08 17:58:00 - [54] Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 08/03/2005 14:39:42 He is making it up. Even with officer guns you wont do 700 dps. Muninn = suck Vagabond would be good with an extra midslot like the ishtar gets. And cap recharge reduction. Why the deimos recharges as fast as one is beyond me. I don't make **** up. I have a pal who cranks 726DPS out of his Muninn. He has a few dom gyros but those only add 2.5% damage which is really fractional with the stacking penalties in place. He doesn't use officer guns. ________________________________________________________
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.08 18:47:00 - [55] Mind telling this wonder setup then? Because I'm baffled.
AlphA13	Posted - 2005.03.08 19:18:00 - [56] I would love to have the problems of a muninn .. ever heard about a cerberus .. don¦t come with tI missles , ever compared TI standart gear for dmg/s on every other Hac ?? They do a lot more dmg ... beside that and my wrong training ( jep mech will come and tell go for elite eagle ) Hac are pure fun In two days tomorrow will be yesterday
Namelesz	Posted - 2005.03.08 19:32:00 - [57] why do you all have to tank? all i see here is "it cant shield tank so it has to armor tank, or it cant armor tank so it has to shield tank" Maybe it shouldnt tank at all, just deal out damage and be quick about it. Sure we all wish we can make all ships be like an Apoc and deal out the damage and still armor tank like crazy, or like a Raven and uber-shield tank and still have all high slots full of offense. But does every ship have to be some sort of tank???? -Namelesz "I never run away. I merely advance in the opposite direction." -Judicator "She was so dumb, the smartest thing to ever come out of her mouth was my *****."
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.08 20:19:00 - [58] Because sometimes tanking actually matters? And some of us are sick of the damn gank setups taking over EVE.
OVERCOPES 1	Posted - 2005.03.08 21:58:00 - [59] Originally by: slothe Originally by: The Chef Edited by: The Chef on 06/03/2005 15:26:24 Originally by: Sorja I witnessed a Deimos going down to 6 standard frigates in under a minute though, so don't be afraid to lose a cruiser I witnessed 6 standard frigates go down to a Deimos in under a minute, which just goes to show its all about the pilots and the fittings :-) an ishtar can own a deimos, a snip for 45 mill ;) ishtar for 45 mill,whos your supplier?
Baun	Posted - 2005.03.08 22:55:00 - [60] Edited by: Baun on 08/03/2005 22:58:17 Edited by: Baun on 08/03/2005 22:55:34 Originally by: Selim Ishtar > Deimos > Zealot > Sacrilege > Vagabond > Muninn > Eagle > Cerberus In terms of survivability, which I consider as the average of damage dealing ability + ability to withstand fire for long. A Munnin can (rather easily) get a 19x dmg mod on 720 IIs. If that isnt good damange then i dont know what is. As far as survivability I think your idea is a tad messed up. Any close range ship has a very low survivability (which is why you need to be careful) so I would stick the Deimos at the bottom and the Vagabond next to it (its alot faster so it has better survivability). My rationale here is that close range ships are the most vulnerable to nosferatus, webs, and missles and that survivability thus scales with range and the ability to tank. I am sure you could argue this the other way around and discuss how range puts you in the killzone of 1400mms but we can debate that if you want later ;p. A Sacrilege is by far the best tank out of the HACs presuming it is setup for it with the Ishtar a close second. An Eagle has a very nice defensive bonus and its optimal is insane so that puts it just under the uber tanks in terms of survivability. The rest depend entirely on the ship's setup as a Zealot can be an insane armor tank, a munnin can really shield tank and a Cerberus could either be paper thin with ECM mids or a quasi decent tank. In any case id probably rate all three of these roughly equal. So Sacrilege > Ishtar > Eagle > Ceberus > Munnin > Zealot > Vagabond > Deimos In terms of survivablity. An interesting note is that with the exception of the Ishtar and the Vagabond this scale is bassically inversely proportional to damage, which indicative of proper balancing (an Ishtar does alot of damage with 14-15 heavy drones and the Vagabond does not do enough damange to warrant such a low survivability). The Enemy's Gate is Down
Jane Vladmir	Posted - 2005.03.08 23:27:00 - [61] Originally by: The Chef Edited by: The Chef on 06/03/2005 15:26:24 Originally by: Sorja I witnessed a Deimos going down to 6 standard frigates in under a minute though, so don't be afraid to lose a cruiser I witnessed 6 standard frigates go down to a Deimos in under a minute, which just goes to show its all about the pilots and the fittings :-) A thorax can down 6 frigs with ease.
Skelator	Posted - 2005.03.09 00:54:00 - [62] Originally by: MadGaz Originally by: jamesw jamesw nosses you all and waves bye bye as the torpedoes hit. Doubt that would affect a sacri much, unless you have 3 or more heavy nos. 2 Named energy Vampires.. 2 to 3 Named Energy Neutralizers. Your Sacriledge is Toast They have us Surrounded again.. the Poor Bastards
Kathulu	Posted - 2005.03.09 03:39:00 - [63] Wow I so happy my little thred grew up so fast Thanks all for the info big help
Hyey	Posted - 2005.03.09 04:22:00 - [64] Originally by: Skelator Originally by: MadGaz Originally by: jamesw jamesw nosses you all and waves bye bye as the torpedoes hit. Doubt that would affect a sacri much, unless you have 3 or more heavy nos. 2 Named energy Vampires.. 2 to 3 Named Energy Neutralizers. Your Sacriledge is Toast Well if you are talking about using all of those together thats 4-5 high slots gone.. what are you gonna kill that sac with ? If you use just 2 of those, the neuts may work but the nosses wont, a sac really can have some incredable recharge. ~~ Hyey I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.09 08:05:00 - [65] Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 08/03/2005 22:58:17 Edited by: Baun on 08/03/2005 22:55:34 Originally by: Selim Ishtar > Deimos > Zealot > Sacrilege > Vagabond > Muninn > Eagle > Cerberus In terms of survivability, which I consider as the average of damage dealing ability + ability to withstand fire for long. A Munnin can (rather easily) get a 19x dmg mod on 720 IIs. If that isnt good damange then i dont know what is. As far as survivability I think your idea is a tad messed up. Any close range ship has a very low survivability (which is why you need to be careful) so I would stick the Deimos at the bottom and the Vagabond next to it (its alot faster so it has better survivability). My rationale here is that close range ships are the most vulnerable to nosferatus, webs, and missles and that survivability thus scales with range and the ability to tank. I am sure you could argue this the other way around and discuss how range puts you in the killzone of 1400mms but we can debate that if you want later ;p. A Sacrilege is by far the best tank out of the HACs presuming it is setup for it with the Ishtar a close second. An Eagle has a very nice defensive bonus and its optimal is insane so that puts it just under the uber tanks in terms of survivability. The rest depend entirely on the ship's setup as a Zealot can be an insane armor tank, a munnin can really shield tank and a Cerberus could either be paper thin with ECM mids or a quasi decent tank. In any case id probably rate all three of these roughly equal. So Sacrilege > Ishtar > Eagle > Ceberus > Munnin > Zealot > Vagabond > Deimos In terms of survivablity. An interesting note is that with the exception of the Ishtar and the Vagabond this scale is bassically inversely proportional to damage, which indicative of proper balancing (an Ishtar does alot of damage with 14-15 heavy drones and the Vagabond does not do enough damange to warrant such a low survivability). You're kidding right? The Deimos is one hell of a tank.
Baun	Posted - 2005.03.09 08:14:00 - [66] Edited by: Baun on 09/03/2005 08:19:15 Edited by: Baun on 09/03/2005 08:15:54 Originally by: Selim Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 08/03/2005 22:58:17 Edited by: Baun on 08/03/2005 22:55:34 Originally by: Selim Ishtar > Deimos > Zealot > Sacrilege > Vagabond > Muninn > Eagle > Cerberus In terms of survivability, which I consider as the average of damage dealing ability + ability to withstand fire for long. A Munnin can (rather easily) get a 19x dmg mod on 720 IIs. If that isnt good damange then i dont know what is. As far as survivability I think your idea is a tad messed up. Any close range ship has a very low survivability (which is why you need to be careful) so I would stick the Deimos at the bottom and the Vagabond next to it (its alot faster so it has better survivability). My rationale here is that close range ships are the most vulnerable to nosferatus, webs, and missles and that survivability thus scales with range and the ability to tank. I am sure you could argue this the other way around and discuss how range puts you in the killzone of 1400mms but we can debate that if you want later ;p. A Sacrilege is by far the best tank out of the HACs presuming it is setup for it with the Ishtar a close second. An Eagle has a very nice defensive bonus and its optimal is insane so that puts it just under the uber tanks in terms of survivability. The rest depend entirely on the ship's setup as a Zealot can be an insane armor tank, a munnin can really shield tank and a Cerberus could either be paper thin with ECM mids or a quasi decent tank. In any case id probably rate all three of these roughly equal. So Sacrilege > Ishtar > Eagle > Ceberus > Munnin > Zealot > Vagabond > Deimos In terms of survivablity. An interesting note is that with the exception of the Ishtar and the Vagabond this scale is bassically inversely proportional to damage, which indicative of proper balancing (an Ishtar does alot of damage with 14-15 heavy drones and the Vagabond does not do enough damange to warrant such a low survivability). You're kidding right? The Deimos is one hell of a tank. It either does ALOT of damage with no tanking. A considerable amount of damage with some tanking. Or ok damage with a fair amount of tanking. When you are flying close to a BS you want to be there for as short a time as is possible. This means that you want to use as much damage as you can while still having a high enough survivability. For most this means either option 1 (max damage no tanking) or option 2 (alot of damage and enough tanking to increase survivability). It very rarely means option 3 (though it can in a ship that has some ECM versatility like an Ishtar) There is a simple reason for this. If you are getting hit regularly in a Deimos while you are attacking a BS it will almost certainly be a sort of damage that you have almost no hope of tanking, much less tanking long enough for your low damage setup to destroy your target (though adding some tanking to a damage setup might facilitate this route). Good examples of this is any situation in which a Raven is under 50km from you (even if it is not your target) or if you happen to get double webbed and start getting hit by long range turrets on the target you are orbitting or if you get nosferatu/neutralized and your cap is sucked dry while drones kill you. In each of these situations your tanking is pretty much irrelevant; If a raven hits you you will die, If you are slowed enough for long range guns to track you they will pound the hell out of you and if you get vampired you are screwed. As such a far safer route to go with the Deimos is the old "the best defense is a good offense" strategy. If you want to fly a tanked HAC you are far better off in an Ishtar which can devote all of its PG and CAP to tanking while still doing a significant amount of damage or a Sacrilege with its higher natural resistances. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.09 08:19:00 - [67] Yeah... so basically you're saying to me that the Deimos is uber, I know it. No other ship can have the damage a Deimos puts out while still tanking. Its not like any other close range ship doesnt have the problems you said, like being dual webbed, nossed, raven'd etc. The Deimos is no exception, but its certainly alot better in what actually matters up close - DAMAGE, and it can tank while doing that damage.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.03.09 08:37:00 - [68] Quote: Yeah... so basically you're saying to me that the Deimos is uber, I know it. No other ship can have the damage a Deimos puts out while still tanking. Lol you really are clueless. Pain is meant to be felt
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.03.09 08:41:00 - [69] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 09/03/2005 08:42:47 Munnin --------------------- 3 720mm IIs, 2 720mm Scouts, 3 named rocket launchers w/ defenders and rockets 1 sensor booster II, 2 tracking computer IIs 4 Gyro IIs, 1 RCU II heavy drones what more do you want on a ship that can use EMP or Plasma M at better than long range and get insane RoF and damage. Us minnies have been using damatrack setups for quite sometime... why bother with a tank. Not to mention null and void any missile using ship in the game. -------------------- The Nest
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.09 11:15:00 - [70] Originally by: Juan Andalusian Lol you really are clueless. Lol!1 Ok, then. Enlighten me with your clearly superior intellect. I want to be smart and kewl just like you. No actually, you're the one who is clueless. Try posting something that attacks my argument next time.
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.09 11:22:00 - [71] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 09/03/2005 08:42:47 Munnin --------------------- 3 720mm IIs, 2 720mm Scouts, 3 named rocket launchers w/ defenders and rockets 1 sensor booster II, 2 tracking computer IIs 4 Gyro IIs, 1 RCU II heavy drones what more do you want on a ship that can use EMP or Plasma M at better than long range and get insane RoF and damage. Us minnies have been using damatrack setups for quite sometime... why bother with a tank. Not to mention null and void any missile using ship in the game. You tend to make alot of typos, I assume you meant 2 rocket launchers. Anyway, any deimos will rip you up since you'll be going slow as hell. Besides, short range ammo is being all reduced to -50% range so there's no fusion ammo to use, big problem for howitzers. And, 5 720's with 4 gyros isnt gonna do much damage compared to a zealot. Zealot will quite easily outdamage that setup, with a hislot to spare for a NOS, better tracking and such. Which begs the question of why the Muninn only has 5 lowslots, its 7th weapon slot means nothing because first, heavy missiles suck, especially with no bonuses, second, it still doesnt do enough damage to justify the lack of a slot. I don't disagree that the Muninn can be quite lethal, but other ships can be just as lethal or more, with less sacrifice.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.03.09 11:31:00 - [72] Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 09/03/2005 11:32:35 Originally by: Selim Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 09/03/2005 08:42:47 Munnin --------------------- 3 720mm IIs, 2 720mm Scouts, 3 named rocket launchers w/ defenders and rockets 1 sensor booster II, 2 tracking computer IIs 4 Gyro IIs, 1 RCU II heavy drones what more do you want on a ship that can use EMP or Plasma M at better than long range and get insane RoF and damage. Us minnies have been using damatrack setups for quite sometime... why bother with a tank. Not to mention null and void any missile using ship in the game. You tend to make alot of typos, I assume you meant 2 rocket launchers. Anyway, any deimos will rip you up since you'll be going slow as hell. Besides, short range ammo is being all reduced to -50% range so there's no fusion ammo to use, big problem for howitzers. And, 5 720's with 4 gyros isnt gonna do much damage compared to a zealot. Zealot will quite easily outdamage that setup, with a hislot to spare for a NOS, better tracking and such. Which begs the question of why the Muninn only has 5 lowslots, its 7th weapon slot means nothing because first, heavy missiles suck, especially with no bonuses, second, it still doesnt do enough damage to justify the lack of a slot. I don't disagree that the Muninn can be quite lethal, but other ships can be just as lethal or more, with less sacrifice. Of course you failed to take into account the range this setup can be effective at especially with those Comps on and apply this to your comparison... but as i said you are clueless and unable to compare anything other than damage modifiers and cap recharge values. Pain is meant to be felt
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.03.09 12:48:00 - [73] Originally by: Selim You tend to make alot of typos, I assume you meant 2 rocket launchers. I have been playing eve for 12 hours now nonstop except for DT. This post was done at something like 3am... as most of my typoed posts do. I am not an english major. And If you have a munnin or vagabond there is no trade offs and as demios/zealot would require sacrifice of time. Personally I think they all are good. And I don't think a ranged setup like mine is silly because we been using those for months. Its not the uber PvP tank but noone said it was... but your zealot will be hard pressed to dent shields and wouldn't get anywhere in range without MWD, which negates tanking and with two tracking comps you are gonna be toast at 5km vs a munnin ( yes 720s w/ tracking comps CAN and DO hit at this range ) and its rockets/720s/drones. I don't really see your point, but to each his own. -------------------- The Nest

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