In this TL;DR post, I will defend pay-to-win (P2W), at least as regards skillpoints; i.e. I will defend the idea that players ought to be allowed to purchase skillpoints. This argument is on principle, and will not take into account possible existential side-effects (e.g. players quitting because they irrationally hate p2w). My argument is that there is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.

Let's assume that a person can train 1 million SP per month. Let's further assume that to buy a million SP from a cash shop would cost 20 dollars. consider the two scenarios:

-- Person A pays 15 dollars a month for a subscription, and over a year of play ($180) trains 12 million SP.

-- Person B buys the game, and then spends 240 dollars for 12 million SP.

Strictly in terms of cost, person B has paid more for the same amount of SP. One might say that Person A "earned" his or her SP in a way that Person B did not; but this seems specious: Person A simply set his or her skill bar to train every few days (at most). One might also say that Person A had to wait on his or her skills, while Person B did not. True, but the flip side of this is that Person A has more entertainment bang for her buck: she received 12 months of playing a game and 12 million SP. Person B spent more money for significantly less value.

-- Person A pays 15 dollars a month for a subscription, and over a year of play ($180) trains 12 million SP.

-- Person B buys the game, and then spends 240 dollars for 12 million SP.

For starters you haven't factored in the time investment into this

Adding pay to win to a game that didn't start with it trivilaizes the efforts and time of your older players

And before the "but someone had to train that SP" crap. Who cares. I PERSONALLY DID NOT HAVE TO TRAIN A THING!! I am paying to win.

Actually, I quite clearly discussed this notion, and dismissed it. The only time invested in training skill points is the time you spent every few days setting your skill queue. The rest of the time you were just playing the game, or doing whatever else it is you do during the day when you're not playing Eve.



Older players did not expend time or effort to get said skill points.

My argument is that there is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.

Strictly in terms of cost, person B has paid more for the same amount of SP.

GǪ the flip side of this is that Person A has more entertainment bang for her buck: she received 12 months of playing a game and 12 million SP.

Person B spent more money for significantly less value.

Older players did not expend time or effort to get said skill points.

Actually, I quite clearly discussed this notion, and dismissed it.p

The only time invested in training skill points is the time you spent every few days setting your skill queue.

The rest of the time you were just playing the game, or doing whatever else it is you do during the day when you're not playing Eve.

Older players did not expend time or effort to get said skill points.

existential side-effects

This thing all thing devours;
birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
gnaws iron, bites steel;
grinds hard stones into meal;
slays kings, ruins towns,
and beats high mountains down.

........

There is something else of value that you are ignoring, it is the answer to the riddle posed above, and is a word that you have not mentioned. The fact that you have so thoroughly skirted around the word implies to me that it has value that you do not understand.

Do you know what the thing is that I am talking about? What is it that has more value than money, and many people don't pay attention to until it is too late? What is it that many wage slaves wish they could have more of to spend on their children?

There is something else of value that you are ignoring, it is the answer to the riddle posed above, and is a word that you have not mentioned. The fact that you have so thoroughly skirted around the word implies to me that it has value that you do not understand.

Do you know what the thing is that I am talking about? What is it that has more value than money, and many people don't pay attention to until it is too late? What is it that many wage slaves wish they could have more of to spend on their children?

is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.

0/10

Nothing worth seeing here on to the next thread.

Adding pay to win to a game that didn't start with it trivilaizes the efforts and time of your older players... and it isn't going to win you any friends. If you're in that much of a rush... as was said above you can go buy someone else's character.

Let alone those who remember getting up at 3am change a skill cause there was no skill queue.

Don't we already have a character bazaar?

And what about the often used argument that SP doesn't matter but your in-game knowledge and experience is far more important?

It means that the thread is mistitled. Buying SP is not Pay-to-Win GÇö it's Pay-to-Avoid-A-Ton-of-Game-Mechanics-And-Skipping-The-One-Valuable-Commodity-The-Game-Actually-HasGǪ

so, I'm fairly ambivalent on this subject - I personally don't want people to be able to buy SP but I do recognize that buying characters from the bazar is pretty much exactly that - however, what you're saying seems like pure semantics. Yes, the char might not be EXACTLY what you would have trained, but if I want a cap ship pilot, I can buy one on a whim.

What am I missing?

Person C says "I'm buying $240 worth of GTCs and buying a character with 12M SP right ******* now. None of this 'what if" bullshit". If I want to bypass the SP grind I can buy SP already.

And before the "but someone had to train that SP" crap. Who cares. I PERSONALLY DID NOT HAVE TO TRAIN A THING!! I am paying to win.

Mr Epeen

What am I missing?

But the key point is this: you are not buying SP. This is not a matter of semantics but of cold, hard mechanics. You don't gain a single SP in the transaction. All you get is a single, irreducible, indivisible, atomic character.

...

Buying SP is pretty much everything that character trading isn't. Apart from one very small point GÇö gaining access to skills you previously didn't have GÇö the two are completely dissimilar.

Say I've been playing a while and decide I want a carrier pilot. In real terms, what is the difference between me spending (say) $150 on skill-points and being able to immediately fly that ship and spending (say) $150 on the character bazar and buying a char that can already fly that ship?

yes, I get that the mechanics are fundamentally different, but isnt the result the same?

First, thanks for taking the time to explain your standpoint. I understand your position as you explained it and whilst there are elements I agree with, I guess my perception is different.

Say I've been playing a while and decide I want a carrier pilot. In real terms, what is the difference between me spending (say) $150 on skill-points and being able to immediately fly that ship and spending (say) $150 on the character bazar and buying a char that can already fly that ship?

yes, I get that the mechanics are fundamentally different, but isnt the result the same?

I'm not trying to prolong this argument or be deliberately obtuse, I'm genuinely interested in hearing why some people are so vehemently opposed to this when others might feel that this is already available - and a rose by any other name, yadda yadda.

In this TL;DR post, I will defend pay-to-win (P2W), at least as regards skillpoints; i.e. I will defend the idea that players ought to be allowed to purchase skillpoints. This argument is on principle, and will not take into account possible existential side-effects (e.g. players quitting because they irrationally hate p2w). My argument is that there is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.

Let's assume that a person can train 1 million SP per month. Let's further assume that to buy a million SP from a cash shop would cost 20 dollars. consider the two scenarios:

-- Person A pays 15 dollars a month for a subscription, and over a year of play ($180) trains 12 million SP.

-- Person B buys the game, and then spends 240 dollars for 12 million SP.

Strictly in terms of cost, person B has paid more for the same amount of SP. One might say that Person A "earned" his or her SP in a way that Person B did not; but this seems specious: Person A simply set his or her skill bar to train every few days (at most). One might also say that Person A had to wait on his or her skills, while Person B did not. True, but the flip side of this is that Person A has more entertainment bang for her buck: she received 12 months of playing a game and 12 million SP. Person B spent more money for significantly less value.

First, thanks for taking the time to explain your standpoint. I understand your position as you explained it and whilst there are elements I agree with, I guess my perception is different.

Say I've been playing a while and decide I want a carrier pilot. In real terms, what is the difference between me spending (say) $150 on skill-points and being able to immediately fly that ship and spending (say) $150 on the character bazar and buying a char that can already fly that ship?

yes, I get that the mechanics are fundamentally different, but isnt the result the same?

I'm not trying to prolong this argument or be deliberately obtuse, I'm genuinely interested in hearing why some people are so vehemently opposed to this when others might feel that this is already available - and a rose by any other name, yadda yadda.

I support P2W project for one reason only.

If they pay for SP they also pay for plex... and currently Im making around 5 bill a month... enough to full all my pvp needs and all of my accounts with plexes....

And lets not forget..... we needs those kinds of people :)

You can talk all you want about somebody else having to train the character first, but that means almost nothing to the buyer.

Being able to buy your way to the end game without going through the beginning and middle is wrong and I do not support it, that said I agree with the other poster that said you can already do that by buying a character. The only difference between buying a character and buying skillpoints, from the perspective of the buyer is you don't get to pick the sex, name or race, and you inherit their factional standings. You can talk all you want about somebody else having to train the character first, but that means almost nothing to the buyer.

GǪactually, it means a whole lot.

It means you can't make your character better at things.

Of course you can, you can train a toon after you buy it

It means that what you want might not be available.

This is true

It means you have little to no say in what SP you're buying.

Actually you have all kinds of say with the caveat of your second objection that being availablitity

.

I have disputed both of these claims with arguments which have not been squarely addressed.

As I said, my argument is on principle, and is not concerned with possible existential side-effects.

Again: no significant time or effort is put into training skill points.

At any rate, the time and effort put into training skills by this method would not be significantly greater than that put in by a person buying the skill points directly

The idea that players are "earning" skill points by setting their skills and then waiting on them to finish is illusory.

First, many continue to beg the question against my original argument by assuming that training skills takes work, or that the current system of training skills is "earning" them in some sense greater than the hypothetical player paying for the skill points outright. I have disputed both of these claims with arguments which have not been squarely addressed.

Another common point is the "nanny state" argument that newbies won't have fun unless they play the game the same way as those individuals who trained their skills through the existing system. This may or may not be true, but fails to address my own arguments in any event. As I said, my argument is on principle, and is not concerned with possible existential side-effects. It may be the case that P2W will lead to massive rage-quitting newbies who otherwise would have stuck with the game had they played the game the traditional way (although I find this claim --- and others like it --- extremely dubious), but my argument as presented is not concerned with such possibilities.

Again: no significant time or effort is put into training skill points. You simply set your skill (which takes a few seconds) and that's all the effort required. At any rate, the time and effort put into training skills by this method would not be significantly greater than that put in by a person buying the skill points directly; he or she would presumably still have to spend time clicking the skills, for instance, which would probably take about the same amount of total time.

The idea that players are "earning" skill points by setting their skills and then waiting on them to finish is illusory; if any action truly "earned" these skill points for the player, it was the monetary transaction involved (e.g. the subscription fee).