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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2005.03.08 02:42:00 -
[1]
The caldari are supposed to be the masters of long range combat. However in terms of their current fleet combat options it seems to be lacking.
With the new EW changes caldari can now keep people away. It sounds weird but the nerf provides the incentive for ships to stay out of EW range. Currently there is no incentive, even if you are 120km away, most likely you will still be jammed, but now with the nerf to EW range, people are likely to setup very long range setups to stay out of EW.
However caldari have no way to actually use this advantage. Missles do not work in long range as long as you can warp out and evade missles. Railguns suck and even if they pwned caldari have no BS capable of being fielded as a competent railgun boat. Its interesting that CCP has decided not to give the caldari a ship capable of long range combat.
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Question2
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Posted - 2005.03.08 03:40:00 -
[2]
Its not supriring at all actually.Consider that gallente and minmatar ships cant tank compared to caldari/amaar ships,but do less damage.Ships were not exactly balanced very well.
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Rex Martell
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Posted - 2005.03.08 08:52:00 -
[3]
Both caldari battle ships the Scorp and the Raven orginally were Rail Gun Platforms.
The bonuses were changed to make them missile platforms which is now being changed again with missile balancing. The current missile is completely broken because of balance changes to date to make Caldari ships less "uber" over powered missiles have been nerf and nerfed they are still too powerful on caldari ships and pretty much broken completely on every other ship.
With the balancing the Caldari ship bonuses to missiles will be repalced with generic skills that any racial pilot can learn and use.
I suspect when this happens Caldari Battle Ships will once again get their Rialgun bonus back. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his" |
fras
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Posted - 2005.03.08 10:06:00 -
[4]
I wouldn't be so sure about the EW changes. I don't know if it's bugged but 3 BS at 100km+ reduced my range to 2km in a dom on the test server last night. I don't even know if all 3 or just 1 of them were damping me.
As for Caldari and long range, they're obviously not that good at it but imho 90% of fights are skirmishes at medium to short range(gate ranges), I don't see this changing much & if I was a Caldari I wouldn't want to see Ravens turned into a sniper boat, they're nice and flexible atm and that's one of their major strengths.
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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2005.03.08 10:16:00 -
[5]
Edited by: KamiCrazy on 08/03/2005 10:16:00
Originally by: Rex Martell Both caldari battle ships the Scorp and the Raven orginally were Rail Gun Platforms.
Back in beta they were railgun platforms. They had about 6 turret hardpoints each. This was nerfed to 4 hardpoints because it was unfair compared to the amarrians who had lots of turrets but no missle hardpoints at all.
And yes I remember the old 5% optimal range bonuses, however the current state of the ships regardless of their bonuses make for poor railgun platforms because of limited turret hardpoints AND the problem of grid.
Fras> I was meaning in the context of fleet battles, where long range fights happen more often. IMO missles will continue to do well in shortrange fights. Which isn't too much of a problem.
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fras
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Posted - 2005.03.08 10:27:00 -
[6]
it's difficult to be sure. If you give a raven more turret points it needs more grid, and if you give it more grid you'll get the armour tanked nosferatu siege Ravens that were owning on the test server not that long back.
It's a fine line of balance.
I guess the best thing would have been the now scrapped idea of cruise missiles accelerating to really high speeds the further they go..
I'm in favour of leaving things as they are though - for the sake of mixed fleets etc.
Weak in one area, very good in another..
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.03.08 10:38:00 -
[7]
that problem with armor tanking is that armor tanking is just better then shield tanking
when CCP could balance it there would be no problem at all with armor tanking ravens, cause people would shield tank their ravens on their own will, not cause CCP force them to do
atm Caldari ships are pretty messed, CCP made a lot of changes to force people to use them in a certain way to stop abusing imbalances with them, but after all I think thy came out pretty bad.
With changed EW Scorp will suffer a bit, and Raven is pretty much overrated imho
at ranges out of 30km nobody needs to fear a raven, you can kill his shields before his torps reach you, and you can easily predict the time to warp out when your tank dies.
imho, Caldari need to get some kind of turret too, as I once suggested.
Ist just impossible to make Caldari using a secondary weapon as primary weapon without messing up matari (thy need missles too) or overboosting Caldari. Atm Missles on Matari ships are pretty worthless for the actual combat, thy do pitty damage and dont fit to the matari long range guns, so why bother fitting them?
When you boost missles for the matari, thy will be overpowered for the Caldari and so on. Imho CCP just can achieve it.
With the upcoming missle changes Matari will suffer again, now thy need 2 tree to train to use their highslots, thats just unfair, and ****y.
A pity to see nobody mentioned it yet.
So my suggestion:
Give Caldari a new turret system, making their missles slots as secondary weapons like on the Matari ships. Keep missles as short range defence against smaller Ships and drones, that is the place where thy actually are good in. And FoF missle help against beeing jammed.
The new turrets for Caldari could either be Railguns ( With damage and range bonus, only range bonus for Scorp) or you just make a new self propelled shelf gun, which would need to find its place.
Caldari and missles never really worked well, so just give up and make a new beginning Wanna fly with me?
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.03.08 10:50:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Nafri With the upcoming missle changes Matari will suffer again, now thy need 2 tree to train to use their highslots, thats just unfair, and ****y.
A pity to see nobody mentioned it yet.
So my suggestion:
Give Caldari a new turret system, making their missles slots as secondary weapons like on the Matari ships. Keep missles as short range defence against smaller Ships and drones, that is the place where thy actually are good in. And FoF missle help against beeing jammed.
The new turrets for Caldari could either be Railguns ( With damage and range bonus, only range bonus for Scorp) or you just make a new self propelled shelf gun, which would need to find its place.
Caldari and missles never really worked well, so just give up and make a new beginning
so true about minmatars.. but I would more make the Raven a specialized missile boat and the scorp a EW/gunboat. -------------------
Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.03.08 10:51:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Nafri With the upcoming missle changes Matari will suffer again, now thy need 2 tree to train to use their highslots, thats just unfair, and ****y.
A pity to see nobody mentioned it yet.
So my suggestion:
Give Caldari a new turret system, making their missles slots as secondary weapons like on the Matari ships. Keep missles as short range defence against smaller Ships and drones, that is the place where thy actually are good in. And FoF missle help against beeing jammed.
The new turrets for Caldari could either be Railguns ( With damage and range bonus, only range bonus for Scorp) or you just make a new self propelled shelf gun, which would need to find its place.
Caldari and missles never really worked well, so just give up and make a new beginning
so true about minmatars.. but I would more make the Raven a specialized missile boat and the scorp a EW/gunboat.
missles boats dont work Wanna fly with me?
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.03.08 12:03:00 -
[10]
Missile boats work too well. Just put MWD on raven and you have THE L33Test close range ship. Better than any MT or Tempest. And you will hit anything at 0m, even light drones & pods... And statements that shield tanking does not work are ridiculous. In fact i think that shield tank > armor tank. It really rapes your cap, but shield tanked ships don't have other use for it(launchers & projectiles).
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.03.08 12:29:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Scorpyn on 08/03/2005 12:34:31
Originally by: LUKEC Missile boats work too well. Just put MWD on raven and you have THE L33Test close range ship. Better than any MT or Tempest. And you will hit anything at 0m, even light drones & pods... And statements that shield tanking does not work are ridiculous. In fact i think that shield tank > armor tank. It really rapes your cap, but shield tanked ships don't have other use for it(launchers & projectiles).
I don't think there is any point in trying to tank a raven with a mwd fitted... maybe with a cap injector, but then you'll have problems with cargo space... so then you add a cargo expander, and you have a really weird fitting that might actually work
Originally by: Nafri missles boats dont work
Actually they do, as long as it's close range and in small groups. They work in big groups too, but that requires more coordination than the usual "everybody shoot that guy". They suck for long range though.
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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2005.03.08 12:54:00 -
[12]
Missles weren't intended to be primary weapons except for the most specialised of caldari ships.
Hell back in the day, according to fluff EW was a gallente strength (which they modified to be a caldari aspect instead).
Somehow though, missles ended up to be the main weapon of the caldari line of ships. With shield tanking, EW and the odd extreme range (but piddly damage) gunboat thrown in.
Amongst all the races the caldari now have the most versatility but despite all this versatility it has come to really mess up the racial identity.
There is only really one ship in the entire caldari lineup which stands out and that is the raven. And only because missles have been "balanced" so much as to be completely and utterly different to how they were envisaged.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.03.08 14:18:00 -
[13]
If we make all BS in game gun boatsa = no point of missle skills.
Ill better fit Nosf then 2 Siege Laucnhers that will just eat my grid and CPU doint nothing with railgun ranges.
I would say give missles a SIGNIFICANT speed boost. Torps to 1600, Cruise to 2900. -=-
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.03.08 14:33:00 -
[14]
why does every1 think the role of every ship in a fleet battle to pound on the primary target? the raven is good in fleet battles, just not for the same reason an apoc or tempest is. the raven is GOD in short range engagements. Its ability to nuke anything smaller than a bs in 1-2 salvos is a little bit over the top atm but this is the only thing wrong with it
Forums: Sharks - MC |
Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.08 14:36:00 -
[15]
Raven shouldn't be better than a megathron or tempest at short range.
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.03.08 14:45:00 -
[16]
yup, but sadly it is... and bugger can even tank with full gank setup, or put on few EW modules to screw anything.
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.03.08 14:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Selim Raven shouldn't be better than a megathron or tempest at short range.
I thought the tempest was a long range ship?
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.08 14:50:00 -
[18]
Its only long range because short range sucks now. Raven just completely outclasses everything at short range due to no need for MWD, full tank, BCU's if it wants, no tracking, hit frigs etc. Less skills needed too, and its alot easier to fly a raven. (not SP wise, although that too)
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.03.08 16:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Selim Raven shouldn't be better than a megathron or tempest at short range.
How do you figure? Ravens are already the worst long range ships in the game.. they might as well be good for something. ------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.03.08 16:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Selim Raven shouldn't be better than a megathron or tempest at short range.
How do you figure? Ravens are already the worst long range ships in the game.. they might as well be good for something.
exactly wot i was gonna say. It sux at long range cos of missile flight time so it was crap at short range too wot exactly what should it be a good at
AFAIK a good pilot in a blasterthron will still out dmg a torp fitted raven at close range. The only bonus a raven really has is that it can nuke all support ships better than a turret based ship.
Forums: Sharks - MC |
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Cherok
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Posted - 2005.03.08 17:49:00 -
[21]
megathron and Tempest can do lots of damage at long range. Raven...only thing Raven good for at long range is to pack mid slots full of EW. THATS IT! So your point about Mega and Tempest being < Raven at close range is crap. Raven should be better. Heck, Raven even sucks at Mid range. I'll face off against a raven any day at 40-50km!
As for frig killing Raven is only better at killing smaller ships AT CLOSE RANGE. At long range a tempest really OWNS smaller ships, especially with 1400 tech 2's! Megathron does well too.
Right now long range fleet combat is more popular to close range combat. With the new EW proposed changes, it will make Long range combat a MUST. Currently the way things are headed is for all fleets to have Tempests (mostly) and all long range ships (not caldari) out of ECM range with multiple covert ops in place.
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Vex Seraphim
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Posted - 2005.03.08 18:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nafri that problem with armor tanking is that armor tanking is just better then shield tanking
when CCP could balance it there would be no problem at all with armor tanking ravens, cause people would shield tank their ravens on their own will, not cause CCP force them to do
atm Caldari ships are pretty messed, CCP made a lot of changes to force people to use them in a certain way to stop abusing imbalances with them, but after all I think thy came out pretty bad.
With changed EW Scorp will suffer a bit, and Raven is pretty much overrated imho
at ranges out of 30km nobody needs to fear a raven, you can kill his shields before his torps reach you, and you can easily predict the time to warp out when your tank dies.
imho, Caldari need to get some kind of turret too, as I once suggested.
Ist just impossible to make Caldari using a secondary weapon as primary weapon without messing up matari (thy need missles too) or overboosting Caldari. Atm Missles on Matari ships are pretty worthless for the actual combat, thy do pitty damage and dont fit to the matari long range guns, so why bother fitting them?
When you boost missles for the matari, thy will be overpowered for the Caldari and so on. Imho CCP just can achieve it.
With the upcoming missle changes Matari will suffer again, now thy need 2 tree to train to use their highslots, thats just unfair, and ****y.
A pity to see nobody mentioned it yet.
So my suggestion:
Give Caldari a new turret system, making their missles slots as secondary weapons like on the Matari ships. Keep missles as short range defence against smaller Ships and drones, that is the place where thy actually are good in. And FoF missle help against beeing jammed.
The new turrets for Caldari could either be Railguns ( With damage and range bonus, only range bonus for Scorp) or you just make a new self propelled shelf gun, which would need to find its place.
Caldari and missles never really worked well, so just give up and make a new beginning
Noooooo! Missile boats should live and not be any worse than gunboats
playing gunboat-only game will be boring. ------------------- :: finite horizon :: killboard ::
:: bio :: blog ::
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.03.08 18:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Scorpyn Edited by: Scorpyn on 08/03/2005 12:34:31
Originally by: LUKEC Missile boats work too well. Just put MWD on raven and you have THE L33Test close range ship. Better than any MT or Tempest. And you will hit anything at 0m, even light drones & pods... And statements that shield tanking does not work are ridiculous. In fact i think that shield tank > armor tank. It really rapes your cap, but shield tanked ships don't have other use for it(launchers & projectiles).
I don't think there is any point in trying to tank a raven with a mwd fitted... maybe with a cap injector, but then you'll have problems with cargo space... so then you add a cargo expander, and you have a really weird fitting that might actually work
Originally by: Nafri missles boats dont work
Actually they do, as long as it's close range and in small groups. They work in big groups too, but that requires more coordination than the usual "everybody shoot that guy". They suck for long range though.
thy dont work like supposed, either they are useless or overpowered
and I flown lots of Scorps and Ravens, and thy really really dont work in the Eve scheme of combat Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.03.08 18:52:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Selim Raven shouldn't be better than a megathron or tempest at short range.
How do you figure? Ravens are already the worst long range ships in the game.. they might as well be good for something.
thats why I say missles dont work, and missle ships dont work Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.03.08 18:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vex Seraphim
Originally by: Nafri that problem with armor tanking is that armor tanking is just better then shield tanking
when CCP could balance it there would be no problem at all with armor tanking ravens, cause people would shield tank their ravens on their own will, not cause CCP force them to do
atm Caldari ships are pretty messed, CCP made a lot of changes to force people to use them in a certain way to stop abusing imbalances with them, but after all I think thy came out pretty bad.
With changed EW Scorp will suffer a bit, and Raven is pretty much overrated imho
at ranges out of 30km nobody needs to fear a raven, you can kill his shields before his torps reach you, and you can easily predict the time to warp out when your tank dies.
imho, Caldari need to get some kind of turret too, as I once suggested.
Ist just impossible to make Caldari using a secondary weapon as primary weapon without messing up matari (thy need missles too) or overboosting Caldari. Atm Missles on Matari ships are pretty worthless for the actual combat, thy do pitty damage and dont fit to the matari long range guns, so why bother fitting them?
When you boost missles for the matari, thy will be overpowered for the Caldari and so on. Imho CCP just can achieve it.
With the upcoming missle changes Matari will suffer again, now thy need 2 tree to train to use their highslots, thats just unfair, and ****y.
A pity to see nobody mentioned it yet.
So my suggestion:
Give Caldari a new turret system, making their missles slots as secondary weapons like on the Matari ships. Keep missles as short range defence against smaller Ships and drones, that is the place where thy actually are good in. And FoF missle help against beeing jammed.
The new turrets for Caldari could either be Railguns ( With damage and range bonus, only range bonus for Scorp) or you just make a new self propelled shelf gun, which would need to find its place.
Caldari and missles never really worked well, so just give up and make a new beginning
Noooooo! Missile boats should live and not be any worse than gunboats
playing gunboat-only game will be boring.
problem is that matari needs missles too, and with more skills to use missles matari ships will suffer a lot Wanna fly with me?
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Cherok
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Posted - 2005.03.08 18:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Nafri
thats why I say missles dont work, and missle ships dont work
Oh but they do. They work very well up close! Why do you think people fly them if they 'don't work'?
They have a role to fill and they fill it well. If you don't like that role, use a turret ship FFS. Lets keep the game interesting.
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Hampstah
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Posted - 2005.03.08 19:18:00 -
[27]
Quote: Actually they do, as long as it's close range and in small groups. They work in big groups too, but that requires more coordination than the usual "everybody shoot that guy". They suck for long range though.
We all know Raven owns at close range and in PvE. The problem for Caldari specialized pilots is that they have NO long range options. The Scorp does very low damage so you are stuck with either a long range EW Scorp or close range Raven. Caldari pilots should be able to have multiple roles like other races.
----- Beware Rodentz with Gunz
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.03.08 19:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cherok
Originally by: Nafri
thats why I say missles dont work, and missle ships dont work
Oh but they do. They work very well up close! Why do you think people fly them if they 'don't work'?
They have a role to fill and they fill it well. If you don't like that role, use a turret ship FFS. Lets keep the game interesting.
work in game mechanics
Im over the stadium where I need to bring my favourite ship on the top
all I want is a balanced PvP ship
I can pilote 3 different races with equal good skills Wanna fly with me?
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2005.03.08 19:22:00 -
[29]
All the whining to ccp over the "overpowered Raven" makes me ill. Like others have stated you really need to gain tactically superior position in a raven for it to really wax another BS. This is how it should be. Every ship should have some tactical consideration placed on it's ability to perform in a range of situations.
The people whining about the Raven being out of balance are the same people who want to see WCS's nerfed. FFS, just equip enough points of scrambling to do the job. SETUP IS KING retards. How hard is that to comprehend?
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marioman
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Posted - 2005.03.08 19:22:00 -
[30]
Wow suprized to see ppl suddenly stick up for caldari....seems the last few months its been nothing but a lynch mod after our poor ships :(
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