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Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 11:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Morgan North wrote:I am ofthe oppinion that simply making the ships inside the complex destroyed is sufficient to pretty much wipe out the farming community. Isn't that essentially what is planned? Timer stopping when NPCs are present? Will cut down on the solo-alt farming but if payouts remain at the same levels I doubt we'll see much of a decrease as it is a simple matter of adding one DPS alt per plex, especially considering the plans for allowing all cruiser in mediums and what not .. farming will be easier (T2 ships vs. rats balanced against T1) but more expensive to start up and may (or may not) require a second account. Worst case: We'll see a surge in bots. Currently no point in using them as an ab frig can be left largely unattended, but when it becomes the equivalent of clearing a mission room/complex we'll probably see bots taking over .. hope Screegs is ready for it  Best case: Payouts are reduced to a point where dual-boxing is not profitable enough, forcing farm hands to seek employment elsewhere. PS: Above dependent on defensive plexing NOT getting much of anything and bleed rates changes axed .. were that to happen then all that is accomplished is the relocation of orbit alts making both front lines effectively dead as no system will change hands ever again barring a staggering undertaking by one side or another .. just the thought of chasing stab-alts around for a week per system makes me cringe.
Having to kill the NPCs mean you can't AFK with a week-old T1 frig account
Having to kill the NPCs means you can't feasibly do anything bigger than a Minor plex with a T1 frig.
The Incursus Plague is at an end.
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Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
450
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 14:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Morgan North wrote:I am ofthe oppinion that simply making the ships inside the complex destroyed is sufficient to pretty much wipe out the farming community. Isn't that essentially what is planned? Timer stopping when NPCs are present? Will cut down on the solo-alt farming but if payouts remain at the same levels I doubt we'll see much of a decrease as it is a simple matter of adding one DPS alt per plex, especially considering the plans for allowing all cruiser in mediums and what not .. farming will be easier (T2 ships vs. rats balanced against T1) but more expensive to start up and may (or may not) require a second account. Worst case: We'll see a surge in bots. Currently no point in using them as an ab frig can be left largely unattended, but when it becomes the equivalent of clearing a mission room/complex we'll probably see bots taking over .. hope Screegs is ready for it  Best case: Payouts are reduced to a point where dual-boxing is not profitable enough, forcing farm hands to seek employment elsewhere. PS: Above dependent on defensive plexing NOT getting much of anything and bleed rates changes axed .. were that to happen then all that is accomplished is the relocation of orbit alts making both front lines effectively dead as no system will change hands ever again barring a staggering undertaking by one side or another .. just the thought of chasing stab-alts around for a week per system makes me cringe. Having to kill the NPCs mean you can't AFK with a week-old T1 frig account Having to kill the NPCs means you can't feasibly do anything bigger than a Minor plex with a T1 frig. The Incursus Plague is at an end.
Which is why diagonal plexing should probably end as well. As said, there should be a consequence for winning the war, and lack of offensive plexing sites is just that. Being able to just run to the other warzone should never be the answer.
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Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
165
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 14:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
When Faction Warfare was updated, the first couple of weeks prior and after were a lot of fun. There was regular PvP and several larger engagements which is interesting when you're limited to ship sizes.
But frankly, it became incredibly boring. I'd form fleets, and it became an exercise in watching counters going down for 15 minutes, while the enemy faction in local, didn't sniff or bother to get a counter fleet ready anymore.
Systems were just left invulnerable, so that they could not be farmed, so the previous 'flashpoint' when fights would start to take place, evaporated.
I've been giving EvE a break, pretty much because Faction Warfare became incredibly dull. I hope changes are made to make it more interesting, otherwise when I restart the corp in November, we'll be focusing on something else.
The best idea, is the one about making there be a front line, removing the ability to farm behind those lines. But it seems that isn't doable just yet, which is a real shame. This would bring the fights together, and make for compelling PvP. I can only hope this is put in as a priority in a point release.
Quite simply, the LP farming has to be smashed into tiny pieces via game mechanics, and rewards for actual PvP - what should essentially be the heart of Faction Warfare - placed firmly front and centre. The AI should be hard enough to stop solo farmers. Death is the simplest form of punishment. And yes... enemy AI should be a LOT harder and yes, able to scramble and disrupt so farming solo is risky, and can be countered. Caldari focused fleet PvP
Join us for 100% Caldari fleets in Faction Warfare and small fleet PvP
www.thedeadrabbitsociety.com/recruitment |

Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
386
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 19:13:00 -
[34] - Quote
When framed in the context of helping the underdog against a dominant entity, it sounds really nice.
A lot of arguement for rewarding diagonal plexing is that it allows the underdog on one side of a conflict to come back from allied help, so it serves as a check and balance against total dominance.
The reality is, it's not a check and balance at all and the underdog term is relative. Saving one underdog at the cost of creating different one doesn't mean much. In fact, it just means that whatever pair of friendly militias has more 'net' dominance will be able to dominate the warzone as a whole.
Allied plexing is probably the biggest reason we have seen as much farming as we have. Instead of farmers diminishing once one side loses their space, they move onto the opposite warzone and keep farming. I think the concept of having a friendly militia being able to help is cool, but it creates too much of a PVE farming metagame in the meantime.
I wouldn't suggest removing it completely, but the 1:1 parity in terms of rewards could be adjusted.
The moar you cry the less you pee |

Taoist Dragon
Forced Penetration
41
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 01:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
remove lp gained from solo plexing allied militia sites.
Award LP for the site only in you are there with someone from the actual militia. and split it as normal. This way if the ally wants to flips systems quickly they can organise some help but get less LP from the plexing. But they will still get full benefit from WZ control.
Reduce LP for plex's by at least half and double PVP gained LP.
More LP for fighting less for plexing. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything. |

Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
260
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 19:37:00 -
[36] - Quote
cross militia plexing is fine , all ccp has to do is to remove standing plexing.
There was time when caldari had all systems, similar may happen also in the future, there has to be something to do after that also. |

Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
808
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 05:03:00 -
[37] - Quote
remove all npcs from lowsec faction warfare. make LP gains increase the more isk you destroy
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Commander Ted
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc. Monkeys with Guns.
21
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Posted - 2012.10.08 17:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
How come we have plexes anyway, if FW is such a pvp centric feature how come the primary way of advancement is pve. The system for conquering systems should be reworked and LP should be dolled out in large chunks if you conquer a system. Maybe the rewards for killing enemy militia members should be increased, then after someone has died they will not be worth any LP when killed again for a set period of time. |

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
465
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 13:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
FW PVP should be affordable. This means that you need a mechanism to make sufficient ISK which is available to the people involved in FW, and intrinsic to FW. CCP created LP's from plexing as a way of allowing FW participants to pay for their PVP and not go bankrupt.
Perhaps LP's should be redeemable for full reinsurance of your lossmails. You lose a ship, you can cash in LP's at a set rate to gain ISK up to the value of the lossmail, minus insured value. Ie, you could exchange LP's to get a 100% coverage of your ship and fittings. You earn the LPs by offensive or defensive plexing.
You don't lose a ship, you can't cash your LP's out. You also could not get more ISK out of a ship than you put in, voiding the insurance rorts of old.
This would keep the ISK fountain a closed loop within FW. FW people would be able to PVP and PVE (ie; plex) in order to prevent loss of ISK from PVP. You wouldd strike a balance between flying ships and losing them, and orbiting buttons in order to be able to afford to do this. Too little orbiting prevents you from claiming insurance, too much and you have wasted your damn time.
Just an idea. Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
316
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 14:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:.. CCP created LP's from plexing as a way of allowing FW participants to pay for their PVP and not go bankrupt.... Your tinfoil is weak. Look at the timeline and the way it was pushed through, it screams to the heavens that it was done solely to satisfy null's craving for cheap affordable bling. I do not know of a single PvP'er, from before CCP decided to devalue the LP completely, who could not make ends meet by doing a single mission per day .. one mission gave you 2 navy frigates for 5-6 minutes work. And with the lopsided timezones there were oodles of time in which PvP was suicidal so grinding the grind when otherwise 'docked' was pretty much the way to go.
If the goal was to throw active FW PvP'ers a bone and increase plexing activity then they would have system occupancy matter and given LP-for-Kills in plexes a massive modifier .. neither happened despite we hapless few's best attempts at waving the bulls in Iceland off.
System already assigns a value to killing folk, use that to determine what is available in the store .. ex. you get 1k LP for killing John Doe and provided you have the LP in the bank you can now 'redeem' 5k LP in the store regardless of where they from.
But .. someone (not naming he who should not be named for fear of reprisals from ISD) at CCP wants carebears/PvE players to be able to do their thing without ever firing a shot at another person as he does not believe it is CCP's place to say how the game is to be played *sigh* .. makes all kinds of sense and has loads of real world examples to draw from: All warzones throughout history has been swamped in merchants, livestock herders, farmers and artisans to such an extent that military forces can't fire a single round without hitting one 
In Short: The farm is here to stay due to null pressure and weak minded yes men, best we can hope for is meaningful mechanics to increase the pew .. should be doable as it has been almost entirely decoupled from the farm now. Eve/CCP is trying to prove that Love and Hate can co-exist within the same heart!
PS: Can we please get the ally militias to show appropriate colours in local .. it cannot be that damn hard to do. Freaks me out when plexes vanish with nothing but neutrals around .. hahahahaha.
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Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
21
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 15:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:They are in militia just not one of the locals .. CCP still haven't managed to make the ally militias show as such in local channel. Another argument against cross-faction plexing: It removes a major balancing tool as there is no consequence to steamrolling at home as one can merely send excess farm hands abroad to rake in the cash.
Came here to say this. As a Minmatar militia member, there's no real downside to the lack of viable plexing targets in my 'home' warzone -- if I want to offensively plex, I fly 8 jumps to the other warzone, where enemy systems abound.
It shouldn't be that way. I think diagonal plexing should pay, yes, but it shouldn't pay full price -- enforcing some kind of payout reduction for diagonal plexing would introduce diminishing returns to any militia that's really dominating their home territory.
Diminishing returns is a theme in the upcoming FW changes, and it should carry to all aspects of FW play. |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3154
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 15:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:.. CCP created LP's from plexing as a way of allowing FW participants to pay for their PVP and not go bankrupt.... Your tinfoil is weak. Look at the timeline and the way it was pushed through, it screams to the heavens that it was done solely to satisfy null's craving for cheap affordable bling.
Bah, if you're gonna tinfoil, go big or go home. I will match Trinkets (accurate) assessment about the reason behind LP for plexing and Veshta's tinfoil about this all being for 0.0 (really?) and raise you both with the proposition that this was all done to quickly vent isk from an overinflated economy ("OOPS! Was that the effect Inferno had? Why, what a pleasant side effect!").
The reality is that LP-for-plexing was arguably the single most common suggestion originating from within the Faction Warfare community for years and years leading up to CCP finally sitting down to overhaul the system. Everyone asked for it not only as a carrot to hang around in the plexes, but as a way to earn isk while PvPing (this was assuming of course that plexes were overhauled either first, or at the same time) so that FW pilots didnt have to take time away from pew to go run missions. Whatever nefarious scheme anyone thinks took place here, the bottom line is that CCP has given us exactly what we asked for, albeit in a wonky order that opened the door for a brief (un?)intentional "farmville" period between expansions. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
317
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Bah, if you're gonna tinfoil, go big or go home.  I will match Trinkets (accurate) assessment about the reason behind LP for plexing and Veshta's tinfoil about this all being for 0.0 (really?) and raise you both with the proposition that this was all done to quickly vent isk from an overinflated economy ("OOPS! Was that the effect Inferno had? Why, what a pleasant side effect!").... It is a good theory, you happen to have numbers to support that is the effect it had?
As a consumer all I can say is that everything is more expensive now then at any other point in recollected history. Everything from minerals to Plex has been increasing at break-neck speed .. so if swamping the market in LP (screwing non-farmers over in the process by the way) was to siphon off ISK then the plan, from where I am sitting, failed miserably.
PS: 9-12 months is not a brief period .. makes up ~20% of the entirety of FW existence and some 10% of Eve's existence and we have heard nada official to tell us that things will be better .. just different .. then again the hole they dug with Inferno was so deep that any change will be better so I guess that is something. PPS: The above 'PS' was a nudge to you to nudge CCP to give us some updates! Surely YtterbiumGÖÑFozzie can't be the only ones working up north  |

Commander Ted
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc. Monkeys with Guns.
22
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 23:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Diagonal Plexing doesn't matter, what matters is how players can go in with a t1 frig that is a few days old and make 600mil an hour. If you stopped diagonal plexing all that would happen is the farmers would just join the appropriate militia. |

Alex Carmel
The Nyan Cat Pirates Nyanpire
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 19:47:00 -
[45] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Confirming I fly a t2 rigged pilgrim with a 120M isk faction scram and loki boosts to catch unarmed slashers. It's the only practical way to get them, if you consider doing that practical. Don't know of anyone else doing it but I doubt I'm the only one.
Edit: oh yeah, back to the topic at hand. I have no problem with cross plexing/fighting. The problem is just how broken FW is in regards to WZ control, plexes and to a lesser extent missions.
Here's a cheap alternative... Logon trap from 45km from the button in a slasher with (t2) long point, mwd, web and a neut. Fit fusion.
Most of those incursii have no stabs since the 4th low is a cap or tank mod.
Bonus point if you have a neut alt use dscan to spot when they return. |

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
80
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 04:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
it does not allow an underdog militia to come back and its plain ********
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Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
166
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 08:51:00 -
[47] - Quote
As suggested, if the NPC's actually scramble or disrupt inside the Plex's, you achieve a couple of things. First you make sure solo frigates have to actually... you know... kill the ships inside the plex to clear it.
Secondly, it allows any wandering defenders a chance to catch any solo farmers deep in their factions territory (at present its basically impossible)
Thirdly, it encourages team work in faction warfare, instead of solo bots/players farming etc.
It stops frigates from running larger plex sites than they should really be able to farm.
Lastly, it focuses faction warfare on PvP in a subtle, but distinct way. Caldari focused fleet PvP
Join us for 100% Caldari fleets in Faction Warfare and small fleet PvP
www.thedeadrabbitsociety.com/recruitment |

Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 03:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:.. CCP created LP's from plexing as a way of allowing FW participants to pay for their PVP and not go bankrupt.... Your tinfoil is weak. Look at the timeline and the way it was pushed through, it screams to the heavens that it was done solely to satisfy null's craving for cheap affordable bling. Bah, if you're gonna tinfoil, go big or go home.  I will match Trinkets (accurate) assessment about the reason behind LP for plexing and Veshta's tinfoil about this all being for 0.0 (really?) and raise you both with the proposition that this was all done to quickly vent isk from an overinflated economy ("OOPS! Was that the effect Inferno had? Why, what a pleasant side effect!"). The reality is that LP-for-plexing was arguably the single most common suggestion originating from within the Faction Warfare community for years and years leading up to CCP finally sitting down to overhaul the system. Everyone asked for it not only as a carrot to hang around in the plexes, but as a way to earn isk while PvPing (this was assuming of course that plexes were overhauled either first, or at the same time) so that FW pilots didnt have to take time away from pew to go run missions. Whatever nefarious scheme anyone thinks took place here, the bottom line is that CCP has given us exactly what we asked for, albeit in a wonky order that opened the door for a brief (un?)intentional "farmville" period between expansions.
Players also asked for LP from FW kills, which CCP managed to massively screw up to the point where they had to roll back the hundreds of billions that the Goons exploited of this broken game mechanic.
Exactly the same has happened with the retardedly broken plexing mechanics, with unarmed T1 farming alts (whose main's often AREN'T EVEN IN MILITIA) creaming literally TRILLIONS of Isk between them every month. From literally doing nothing aside from going semi-AFK in plexes.
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Mastalin
MayneLine Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 04:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
Personally I would like to see the link between the allied factions increased, with the ability to see your allies map and their situation, and allies chat channel would be cool to |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2670
|
Posted - 2012.10.27 22:56:00 -
[50] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:.. CCP created LP's from plexing as a way of allowing FW participants to pay for their PVP and not go bankrupt.... Your tinfoil is weak. Look at the timeline and the way it was pushed through, it screams to the heavens that it was done solely to satisfy null's craving for cheap affordable bling. Bah, if you're gonna tinfoil, go big or go home.  I will match Trinkets (accurate) assessment about the reason behind LP for plexing and Veshta's tinfoil about this all being for 0.0 (really?) and raise you both with the proposition that this was all done to quickly vent isk from an overinflated economy ("OOPS! Was that the effect Inferno had? Why, what a pleasant side effect!"). The reality is that LP-for-plexing was arguably the single most common suggestion originating from within the Faction Warfare community for years and years leading up to CCP finally sitting down to overhaul the system. Everyone asked for it not only as a carrot to hang around in the plexes, but as a way to earn isk while PvPing (this was assuming of course that plexes were overhauled either first, or at the same time) so that FW pilots didnt have to take time away from pew to go run missions. Whatever nefarious scheme anyone thinks took place here, the bottom line is that CCP has given us exactly what we asked for, albeit in a wonky order that opened the door for a brief (un?)intentional "farmville" period between expansions. Players also asked for LP from FW kills, which CCP managed to massively screw up to the point where they had to roll back the hundreds of billions that the Goons exploited of this broken game mechanic. Exactly the same has happened with the retardedly broken plexing mechanics, with unarmed T1 farming alts (whose main's often AREN'T EVEN IN MILITIA) creaming literally TRILLIONS of Isk between them every month. From literally doing nothing aside from going semi-AFK in plexes.
Both of which have been fixed. The first directly, the second in the first major iteration... with more tightening of the mechanics to come shortly. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2670
|
Posted - 2012.10.27 22:57:00 -
[51] - Quote
Quote:As a consumer all I can say is that everything is more expensive now then at any other point in recollected history.
Your long term memory appears to be faulty, and your short term memory is questionable. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2670
|
Posted - 2012.10.27 22:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Mastalin wrote:Personally I would like to see the link between the allied factions increased, with the ability to see your allies map and their situation, and allies chat channel would be cool to This.
The main problem with this right now is a lack of situational awareness concerning your allies.
Faction Warfare info about your allies situation should be just as easy to view as your own, perhaps on a different tab, including the map functionality. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mastalin
MayneLine Inc
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 15:44:00 -
[53] - Quote
While I can agree with everyones comments about the "farmville" side of plexing.
I still think that you don't want to alienate the casual pvper's of FW, anything that you can do to increase accessibility to either warzone is good, and will increase players
If I feel like cruising out for a fight, and the min/amarr warzone is a bit quiet, it would be great to be able to know whats happening over in Gallenete/Caldari, and be able to join one of their fleet(i.e. see their fleet invites). |

Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
635
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 16:40:00 -
[54] - Quote
If the system ends up where there are 2 winning factions diagonal plexing may be the only thing that keeps the fighting on all fronts.
For example, for the sake of arguement lets assume, Caldari and Minmatar start to dominate and hit tier 5 and put Gallente and Amarr at tier 1. And lets just assume this sort of settles in, and amarr and gallente have difficulty getting out of their rut.
Well if there is no diagonal plexing then the war will basically end. If there is diagonal plexing then the players who like to fight for the gallente in the caldari/gallente space can simply fly for minmatar and keep the fight going. Likewise those who flew for amarr could simply join Caldari and continue to fight in the amarr/minmatar space. So it would end up being only 2 militias but there would still be fighting. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1134
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 11:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
Getting rid of diagonal plexing entirely - not just the LP rewards, but the actual ability to run diagonal plexes - would definitely force militias to concentrate on their own space, and it would close up a lot of loopholes that all sides have exploited at some point in the past. It wouldn't make all that much sense, though... it's complicated. Mane 614
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
625
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 17:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Getting rid of diagonal plexing entirely - not just the LP rewards, but the actual ability to run diagonal plexes - would definitely force militias to concentrate on their own space, and it would close up a lot of loopholes that all sides have exploited at some point in the past. It wouldn't make all that much sense, though... it's complicated. The "kill all rats" requirement severely nerfed the adverse effects of diagonal plexing (afk farmers blobbing the other side's warzone). +1 CCP.
The incomplete connection between allies is great, IMO, simply because it adds potential risk and drama to the game. You want to know what's happening in Minmatar space? Go live there for a week and develop some diplomatic and personal connections with them. |

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
261
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 20:13:00 -
[57] - Quote
Diagonal LP for pew pew, none for plexing.
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1351

|
Posted - 2012.12.04 10:42:00 -
[58] - Quote
Unsticking, let's make some space for future threads. |
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