No, the feedback here from what we've said and shown here has been excellent and helpful. I'm pretty sure there is a large group of people who could provide excellent feedback but fanfest is an opportunity for us to show things and get feedback face to face. If and when development actually goes forward I'd be pushing for lots of community involvement as early as possible. I don't see any other way of really developing a game feature in as complex a system as EVE Online where emergent behaviour and interesting social interactions are such a big part of the game.

While I like puzzles, and that's a good example if it was a pure exploration game type. this is action adventure. If you ever played Bioshock 1 you would recall how much the hacking pipe puzzle game took you out of the pace of the game.
We are more likely to see randomized corridors and choosing between dealing with auto turrets or time locks that will trap us in hostile environments for X amount of time.

More walking? I really hope it's as optional as Incarna is right now.

I'm here for spaceships. Not the meatbags inside.

As per the OP the stuff we've been working on is all for FiS. More at the talk in question which is going to be streamed out to the rest of the world at 1900 on Saturday according to the schedule.

If anyone wants to talk WiS then come find me at Fanfest. :D

This fell by the wayside when Team Avatar was disbanded and refocused. I've talked to CCP karkur about what is left that needs to be implemented and prompted CCP Seagull that this is something that we should do.

I would have shown the avatar prototype if I had been allowed to and had a grovelling apology slide. It should have made it onto the stream but I have no idea why it didn't or when it might be coming online. There are a whole bunch of other talks that haven't made it online yet so I'm presuming it was more time intensive than thought to do.

Just quoting this again so it won't be lost. :P

What's good? CCP Seagull has got a background in live action role playing, and so at least someone at the decission making should get why avatars are relevant to EVE's long term appeal. What's bad? Currently there's no Executive Producer for EVE and this means that EVE development is on autopilot at a point where CCP already is late to make necessary iterations to key systems like SOV.

Oh, it's easy to foretell.

CSM builds up the 99 bullet point list, notices that there are a few little posts asking for avatar content:

Case A: "They're so few, let them have a try because everything else is overly overrepresented"
Case B: "They're so few, let's rather add a point to iterate diminutive features 4,608, 4,609 and 4,610 instead of anyhting avatar related"

With the current CSM, case B is almost granted, and I'll let you imagine Malcanis telling us why it is our fault, in a demeaning, patronizing tone.

CCP had the chance to do some, even basic, form of avatar gameplay before SC. When SC is out it will be too late.

Yes, precisely. Until CCP chose to make that communication I am absolutely forbidden to reveal anything about what they said to us on the subject. I did what I was able to which was to raise the issue and get an official answer.

Nevertheless there is a very competent person "in charge of EVE" at the moment. CCP have a plan for EVE, I have seen it, I think they can deliver it.

After what happened when Incarna was released if there are people at CCP who think EvE should be about anything other than spaceships and the industry that supports them those people should be fired.

Actually CCP cares more about the massive drop in subscriptions that occurred right after Incarna than they do about people who want to turn Eve into a second-rate Second Life clone.

I have given up the hope to ever see WIS ,or EIS as some people say lately.
But it is funny to see ,that nobody is whining about the failure DUST is and the fact that DEV,s are going to be taken away from EvE in favor for a new spaceshooter.
And when it comes to a tiny Devteam ,working on WIS ,an EvE related feature the Goons are on fire.
I don,,t think Dust did not had a very small team especially in the last year.
Valkerie will be the same ,i guess.


But hey ,WIS is not coming ,So that Mittens guy and his Goons can go to sleep ,with no worries and dream about the next big ship.

Where are all these sci-fi spaceship fans coming from?

Keep crying how it's waste of development time, because it will make sure it is a waste, since CCP is scared to even mention WiS anymore.

Enjoy your ship/module iterations :) +1% here/-1% there. That is all you will get as "expansions" now.

Whatever we discuss here, CCP has already made their "Hallellujah Plan" and it has been shared to the CSM and the 5% of it that won't be NDA'ed to hell will be released for populace comsumption over the next months.

I don't feel like asking the CSM wether the Hallellujah Plan includes WiS, because I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". The "miracle deal" are fully animated ships (and probably decal customization as they've been promising that for a while).

That makes sense as even the smaller SC craft makes EVE look bad, but that's about it.

EVE was born without avatars because of constraints, and will reach the end of its natural term without avatars because of constraints.

People will be amazed that a such a soul-less game ever gathered 500,000 or 1,000,000 followers around the prettiest space still-lifes in spreadsheet land, but looking at the avatars released in 2011, and their abandonment, also will understand why EVE didn't stood a chance against more immersive games.

Ok... This whole eva thing and actually getting to play with your avatars is a cool idea. But honestly, I would just be satisfied if there was a social aspect to it. Let me walk around inside of hubs and stations, see other peoples avatars, go to chat bars or actually have to walk to different shops or places for different things instead of just a GUI. That really wouldn't be THAT hard would it? I'm honestly completely stunned to NOT see that in this game.

Well, in the coming months we'll learn the details of the Hallellujah Plan, aka CCP Seagull's development plan for the next 3 years. We know it does not contain any WiS as CCP still hasn't made up its mind on WiS, but the CSM is happy with the Plan so who knows... maybe NEW!! is coming to a EVE near us.

I'm already thinking on a final name for the Hallellujah Plan once we know more details...

Ok, so you want an example for how a simple room could generate income and maybe even draw new players? Fine... the hangar module for Star Citizen (more or less one simple hall with a ship in it) has been downloaded by approx 234.000 people right now... to get access to it, each of them had to donate at least 5$, not counting the money they actually payed for the module itself... remember: That hangar is nothing more then one room with a ship... no gameplay, hardly any interaction, and it will stay like that for the next 6 months.

...so, and now tell me it would not work for EVE. All CCP would have to do is add a social space similar to that hangar and/or open up the existing CQs for other players, then proceed to add vanity items like room decorations (model ships, pictures, or even a bar), new clothing and accessories (expanding the current NeX shop), and go from there ...believe me, it would work and it would bring new players. Why? Cause the industry shows that stuff like that works right now... given, it has to be done right, not like the last time - with a vision for future things to come behind it - but it would work.

Right now, all EVE is to most gamers is: "Spreadsheets in Space"...

Oh, but it is... in a way... out of two reason:
1) The NeX shop is already there, so the outcry will not be the same as it was 2 years ago... especially if the new stuff is "better" then what we already got now.
2) The market is, as I already stated, a bit different today... the last couple of years have seen a rise in micro transaction based games, and people are much more willing to use services like that... if the conent it offers is interesting and fairly priced, of course. That's two things CCP would have to work on, because that has been done quite poorly, when NeX was first introduced.... also, it would have to be marketed right.

...that's quite few "buts".

@ Flamespar: Exactly my point: A firm vision and clever marketing... two essential factors to make stuff like that work.

They did show in-game footage from WoD at fanfest but asked/begged that it shouldn't be recorded and published.

As a project lead can understand why, since I don't like wasting my time explaining to wannabe reporters why stuff doesn't look the way they think it should in the middle of a dev cycle.

Stuff _is_ happening in Georgia, WoD and the avatar based engine is far from dead.

(Nor far from Undead, given their IP).

But it's not what we have in CQ, and it's not ready to replace what we have, yet.

Who necro'ed this garbage?

Does anyone remember this?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10/05/ccp-games-ceo-issues-letter-of-apology-to-eve-online-players/


CCP, stick to fixing the stuff you have in game or do this all over again.... Learn from your mistakes.

For the same reasons, IncarnaGÇöthe real one with actual meaningful gameplay in itGÇö will be a big step towards the future.

For an experience that relies so much on emergence and human interaction, itGÇÖs remarkable that itGÇÖs taken us this long to actually put a face on it. Once Incarna hits its stride, EVE will be more personal, and thus more accessible to general audiences.

Visual self-expression in a virtual setting is a core psychological component of gaming; most people need to see their avatars, or something vaguely humanoid, or else they donGÇÖt connect with the game. We were behind the curve and it needs to be addressed for the sake of EVEGÇÖs longevity.

We have the technology. Now we need time to add the content that will bring more meaning to the gameplayGÇöagain, without disrupting the space combat simulator that many of you are, or at least were, very much in love withGÇöand without delaying crucial improvements that this core experience desperately needs.

I've removed some rumor mongering from the thread.

Now seriously, stations are safe from non consentual fighting and they must stay this way. Consentual fighting, that would be another question... chessboxing comes to mind... or maybe some mud wrestling.

Actually Eve is growing.

That's a chart of every sub-1 million subs MMO. This is the chart for subs over 1 million. Note that Lineage 1 no longer exists.

Of all of those MMOs Eve Online is the only one that's both Subscription Based and still growing with several of the Free to Play ones even losing active accounts. In-fact the only subscription based game with more active accounts than Eve Online is World of Warcraft and its lost over 1/3rd of its active subs since its peak in 2010 while Eve's population has almost doubled.

As for the recent departures, that happens. People don't tend to want to work on the same game for the rest of their life. CCP has gained and lost people in the past too as has every other game company.

Also most accounts in Eve are not bots, that claim is silly. Yes Eve has a lot of alt accounts but that's actually made it more successful, not less so.

Data from MMOData.com which currently has an article on Eve on its main page.

Obviously more than one thread with a dozen people circlejerking each other with terrible arguments for a year.

If only Rockstar let CCP borrow RAGE and make some sick Avatar gameplay out of it...

-+-+.GÇó*-¿*GÇóGÖ¬GÖ½GÖ¬You can say I'm a dreamer -+-+.GÇó*-¿*GÇó-+-+.GÇó*-¿*GÇó-+-+.GÇó*-¿*GÇóGÖ½GÖ¬GÖ½ but I'm not the only one...GÖ¬GÖ½GÖ¬GÖ½GÖ¬-+-+.GÇó*-¿*GÇó-+-+.GÇó*-¿*GÇó

The implication has been that the fork in Carbon developement between the versions of Carbon WoD uses and Eve uses is so great that cross integration will be difficult/impossible. I vaguely remembering there being an entire threadnaught about it at some point.

True... and CCP doesn't shy away from saying something is dead when, indeed it is dead... like planetary flight.

Well, yea, I'm sure it will not go entirely unnoticed... but still, I think there could be done more.

Emailed Seagull, Deddawn, and Hilmar. Got a reply from Seagull a while ago.



No response from Hilmar. Reddawn's response was significantly better, but that was some time ago now.

Yay, sounds like "no avatar gameplay in EVE online the game". But then, if I can't take Ishtanchuk (THIS Ishtanchuk, 4 years, 7 months and 13 days old, 66 million skillpoints) to a walk in EVE Online, the game I've given 5 years and 900+ euros, what's in it to me?

No matter if they made EVE Fuckingawezome: Walking in New Eden, my commitment/attachment is to my EVE characters, and in case I looked for other games to use these or other characters, for f*ck's ake! Those would not be any games from a company that cheated on me!

It's CCP nonsense to the point of absurd.

The idea has always been to procedurally generate content from set pieces, think of the way a boardgame like Warhammer Quest works. It's an easily extensible way of working that also lets you get high quality art in which can be a problem with purely procedural content. Generally though I'd of liked to have some rhyme and reason to layouts so you could enter a structure or ship and know what area you were in and have a good likelihood of knowing where you wanted to go in relation to it.

Sadly, as per the original post, we're not actively working on avatar exploration at the moment. :(

I've tried to steer clear of the whole SC vs Eve, but man, the more I hear about SC, the more depressed I get when I look at Eve. I'm not going to pretend like making a game is easy in way, shape, or form, but at a certain point, I do have to kind of wonder what's going on at CCP?

Don't get me wrong, I like Eve, but I'm slowly leaning towards the "expansion = glorified patch" crowd as time goes on. I'm not expecting a huge mind-blowing expansion every time, but I'd be lying if I said I don't find these expansions lacking in one way or another. At this rate, I think I'm also skeptical if we'll ever see WiS at all. On top of that, World of Darkness is practically vaporware at this point and DUST514, while I do very much enjoy some aspects of it, is still riddled with problems. It doesn't really all add up if you ask me.

Again, I can not stress it enough: I like Eve and I like CCP or else I wouldn't even be here, but I'm just disappointed (and a little confused) is all it is. I suppose all I can really do is sit here, wait, and hope for the best, but man, you sure don't make it easy to stay optimistic.

Incarnagate, somerblinkgate, tosgate, or maybe even rubicongate?

You people spend too much time on forums.

I used to believe this as well. Then Incarna was released and I realized that Eve had been ignored for two years for a room with a couch and a monocle.

CCP has an amazing spaceship game and two failed avatar games...they should stick with what they do best.

Yea, Goons... fun bunch... I mean, you gotta love people that only play games to ultimately break them, and to show the whole world how clever they are in doing so.

...but, it kinda explaines why they are against any new mechanics introduced to "their" game: More gameplay options means more ways for other players to avoid them.

I donGÇÖt think CCP knows how to delivery meaningful, Avatar based gameplay in EVE. It seems to me like itGÇÖs something they REALLY want to do, but no one knows where to start.

And I understand the business decision behind saying that you want to focus on FIS space stuff, but it does seem suspicious when you canGÇÖt afford to have a team focus on Avatar based stuff, yet you can allocate a team on Dust and Valkyrie.

I started getting serious about EVE when I saw this video a few years ago where CCP t0rfifrans was talking about making EVE into the GÇ£Ultimate Sci FI SimulatorGÇ¥ and I was hooked from there. Sadly, EVE has yet to get to that point and it wonGÇÖt get to that point if we donGÇÖt have some semblance of Avatar based gameplay.

I was willing to buy the excuse that doing this takes away from Dev time for FIS, but between Dust 514 and EVE Valkyrie in BACK TO BACK years, that excuse just doesnGÇÖt fly anymore.

WeGÇÖre not asking for anything groundbreaking here, but releasing stuff little by little would be great.

5: it may/can/should be done as a separate game!

Then what's the purpose of it? We're here because our capsuleers in EVE had to become real people, there's no point to have avatars if they can't take advantage of our skillpoints, ISK and assets in EVE.

Also, All the woulda-coulda-shouldas / Layin' in the sun / Talkin' 'bout the things / They woulda-coulda-shoulda done... /
But all those woulda-coulda-shouldas / All ran away and hid / From one little did.

I bet this will make most new players run to the forums and ask "how do I open the door ?"

what we need now is more triggers to drive conflict not "shiney shiney WiS". Nobody ever started a war over how ugly was the mug of the other side.

Interesting things from Pokethulu in EVE Vegas:

New EVE lead designer (Pator? SP?) is from World of Darkness.

Nex store is going to be revamped, probably moved to an online store (or accounts? extension of plex store?) and the redemption service.

Interesting.

Do you have a link to a video of this, and rough times in the video that this was mentioned? I would like to hear what they're talking about for myself.

More t-shirts.

I regret more and more buying the EvE CE. sighs

Everyone said Star Trek Online would kill EVE, it didn't.

Star Citizens won't kill EVE either, the only thing that can kill EVE is CCP.

Also, notice the corporate quarters (Office) UI at 1.55 with the slay table stuff. Shame that never became anything, like most of CCP's promises.

If you thought that WiS maybe wasn't appealing to a large enough population, you should read this piece on who will actually enjoy the Hallelujah Plan...

http://www.vg247.com/2013/11/18/eve-rubicon-sets-up-ccps-greatest-mystery-yet-interview/

New implants, new modules, new materials, to build and use the stargates to BIG UBERSPECIAL NEW SPACE (BUNS), probably by Winter 2014 expansion.

That is, if you're an alliance large enough to afford it, and don't be disrupted by someone else. Preferably an alliance whose nickname starts with a G...

...and the rest of us, oh, we can just keep paying the bills so the lucky 5% enjoys 90% of everything that's to come for the next three years.

Better translation: you have to enjoy ships because Eve is a spaceship game.

I would actually worry if the same thing was posted by a Dev who's actually connected to Team Avatar. CCP Rise is part of ships rebalance team. In addition to that it seems that the devs in CCP aren't even on the same page so to speak.

As far as core Eve gameplay - spaceships and whatnot - maybe what they should've learned is not to give promises about expanding Eve and not doing anything in actuality, while doing all the false advertisements with game trailers.
"This video doesn't display actual gameplay, but merely a vision" watermark is pretty much required.

It is one thing if an RTS had these trailers, but totally different for space MMO RPG. Which Rhes and other naysayers can all deny, but Eve really is.

Oh look, another diarrhea post from the pedo that's a member of the two digit iq club.

Meaningful avatar gameplay will never come, because without removing the ability to do soemthing from your ship and ship spinning, theres nothing meaningful they could implement in WiS.

The only thing WiS will ever be capable of without negatively impacting existing in-spaceship docked capabilities, or making half the playerbase rage that they CANT do it from the docking screen, is pure socialization, and visual candy. there is unfortuneately little else they could add that is "meaningful" because everything important can ALREADY be done in a quicker and more efficient fashion.

persoanlly i would be OK with pure-socilization aspects of WiS, i enjoyed that in SWG, i enjoyed that during my short time playing STO. Unfortuneately, CCP disagrees with that idea, and would rather put it on permanent backburner waiting for some meaningful gameplay possibility the playerbase wouldnt mind loading into a hallway to do, to poof into existence.

All of that sounds pretty cool, if we didn't already have the option to do all of that right now and much more conveniently than in a "boardroom."

For instance, having FC tools like what your scout sees is already a very integral part of fights. Set up a private twitch stream for your scout and look at what he sees. Even better, you're not limited to a room!

Information readouts that are already readily available don't add anything.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting".

you guys are so mean for calling EVE a cult or niche game

I think you are most definitely wrong. If you don't like pvp then you are playing the wrong game.
Go back to WoW etc.

http://themittani.com/features/falling-subscription-numbers-what-can-be-done

The answer: CCP actually working on this. Incarna is likely to be the number one piece of content that attracts new players. Deployable structures will not attract new players. Rebalancing capital ships will not attract new players.

THIS WILL ATTRACT NEW PLAYERS.

I've asserted something similar to this before, but not in so few words. Modular POSes with Interiors is more or less exactly the direction I would want Eve moving towards.

Yeah, that would have taken hundreds of man-hours away from important WiS development.

And what kind of features and game mechanics do "we" want exactly?

I'd love DUST to get the Carbon character creator. Sadly, it'd murder the PS3 quite violently.

But the interesting notion is that EVE players as well, really should view their clones are just tools.

"Differed," to the extent that they forked CARBON. It's still CARBON, and the changes they make can be adapted right back into the version of CARBON under EVE; or, if CCP does Incarna as a separate client, it can run on a different version of CARBON as well.

There's already been a fair amount of cross-pollination between the EVE and WoD teams. There's no reason to think that would suddenly end.

I do not think even CCP is kidding itself by thinking dust is a finished product. On top of that there is really no marketing for it either so not sure whats going on there.

I basicly resub here to say hey to old friends every now and then. I mostly play dust as far as new eden goes and it will be a year or so before they flesh out most of what they said their goals were in fanfest if they do not back out of that planning too. I am starting to think PVE in Dust is going the way of to Dodo like WIS did in Eve.

I really wish CCP would make WIS a priority. Once S.C. hits I am not sure what I will do. I know its not the scale of Eve but with time it will have a lot of the space sim that was once a goal of Eve.

Awesome, great work man. I wish I had your photo shop skills.

And again I say when I brought up the idea of a bigger CQ, I did not mean it as some sort of a be all end all solution. Someone asked the question what is the minimum they should do as a first step to making meaningful avatar gameplay and I gave my answer. I don't want them to roll out bigger CQs then do nothing for 6 months to a year while they work on more content. Like I said in my post, the idea behind my answer is that they would roll out bigger CQs (I guess I should have used the word "environments" instead because people are getting way to hung up on the whole CQ thing...) while the rest of the team is finishing up actual content to put into them

I was just answering the question and to me a much bigger, better optimized environment sounds like an infinitely better first step compared to jumping headfirst into a gargantuan avatar content patch that will miraculously also run completely smooth. If CCP could do that though and do it right, then by all means, they should obviously go ahead with that instead.

The entire DUST team should be working on DUST right now. I mean i like the game and everything, but I think anyone who plays it can agree there is plenty of room for improvement. Eve could always use some improvement too, but I don't think the DUST team can afford to branch out much right now.

That and I regret ever bringing up CQs because I feel like we're still getting hung up on those when my idea was more so on what they would mean in the grand scheme of things on a technical level rather than them in and of themselves.

Oh I agree, I'd LIKE to see a major avatar-based expansion introducing all sorts of cool sandboxy gameplay to explore on foot.

But if it's a choice between nothing at all, and something small, then something small wins every time, right?

Looks like the EVE 'Source' Coat is the hideous 'Executor' Coat.

Ugh.

I don't know what I was expecting. At least it's not a Structure Dress, I guess?

edit: Whoever is designing the NEO shirts, why not just use the logo from the stream? The graphic on them is so small and complex, you can barely tell what it is. Disappointing...

As much as I like the idea, you can't just have a system where a player can just walk up to a "hanger" and break in. You can't simply extend the ability to destroy and steal stuff to everything in this game, as it is not "real life" and players can not be online in the game to defend against this type of PvP, This is exactly the reason POS'es have reinforce timers. If you were "living the game" this would make sense, but online a few hours a day? I don't think so.

What will happen is that you will take all the space PvP away as people can now just steal stuff directly from a hanger, and will start making maxed out "thieves", to which the only counter will be to transfer really large bank accounts and hangers to "storage" accounts, and then let them go to "unsubscribed" mode, as you can always just plex one month if you need to access the assets in a dire emergency.

And if anyone here response is "then we make items steal-able from offline accounts" then those people need their heads examined.

We already have "thieves", they infiltrate a corp, gain trust, get assigned privileges, and then take everything and run. It's quite enough already.

You're assuming the WoD team got anything accomplished.

The fact that so many resources can go into a project with pretty much
zero proof there was even a project to begin with is mind numbing. In fact,
who says there really was a project called WoD? CCP? hmm makes you
wonder where that money really went doesn't it?

Seriously, where's the proof?

Is this officially the longest and oldest thread still alive? :)

Not really.

A barrel with a note 'drop a coin inside' will eventually fill up too.

Actually, the longer it takes, the less importance it has.

Yes, I am aware that this forum barrel has no upper limit,
but it's by far not as full as it could be.

How's that sov revamp coming?

Links?

Please add links to the game play demos too please. I mean how many years did they
work on it? 8 years?? Surely there must be loads of vids and screenshots by now.

8 effing years and nothing... classic.

I wonder where the money REALLY went.

That video show CCP's methods in a nutshell: 7 years of development, a game/feature is on fanfest to attract attention, next year - shutdown. There must be minimal competition on sci-fi MMO market if company may survive with business practices like that.

(+ lately I expect good games only from Korean devs, western MMO industry is in state of decay with its love to cheapest/ugly content and huge marketing budgets)

The negative ex-employee reviews posted on glassdoor seem to revolve around a common denominator you can check out for yourself.

The fact that eve has no real competitors has been a huge factor in all of this.

I don't know of any other Sci Fi mmo that has eve's harsh nature, complexity or single shard sandbox elements. Elite dangerous might have some of these elements when it comes out though so I worry about that and the effect it will have on eve rather than star citizen which is shaping up to be wow in space by the looks of things.

Star Citizen is a multiplayer arcade shooter, EvE Online is a sandbox mmo-rpg. Apples and oranges.

I think he just missed reading the dates in the first page, and the more-recent posts, and thought that this thread was still 'current' and Team Avatar was still active.

Eve is a pc game, and I'm not aware of it being hacked or do you mean something else with the term 'hacked'?