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Chnages on pulse lasers! My opinion

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Syniteon	Posted - 2005.03.26 12:03:00 - [1] I know there has been a lot of discussion on this subject, but i wish to open a new topic for two reasons: Range adjustment of pulse lasers and laser damage adjustment, primarily multifrequency lenses. It is my opinion that latest changes on pulse lasers range will bring more balance to EVE and that CCP hasdone a great job. Its totally unacceptable for all non-amarr ship pilots that a short to mid range gun is used for long range sniping. Pulse optimal reduction and radio lense range bonus reduction are the right moves. On the other hand i am confused by the announcement about ammo that affects lenses! I find it entirely unneceserry and adding to the inbalance. Amarr ships will be even more effective against shield tanking, but very ineffective against armor tank. As far as projectile and hybrid ammo changes are concerned i put my faith in CCP's judgement :) But lense changes are excessive, especially switching 4 dmg from thermal to emp on multispectrals. Is there a valid reason for this? Not in my opinion, and i honestly believe i share it with the rest of the EVE population. The biggest problem was the long range gankageddon, not the close range, because the close range gankageddon is much more vulnerable. I wish to know if there is a real reason for this change and what it is. As i said before, i agree with the radio lense tweaking, even damage reduction, but i cannot see the reason with the multispectral change. CCP, please enlighten me :) I hope you all will try to be objective. Regards Syniteon (Amar ships pilot)
Question2	Posted - 2005.03.26 12:51:00 - [2] Why dont we just lower the entire laser class so that,GASP,its possible to out-damage them WITHOUT using a ship with 2 damage bonuses at ship level 5? That would balance the entire laser class admirably.
Edoo	Posted - 2005.03.26 13:12:00 - [3] having already boosted minmitar a lot, a big nerf on pulses may go too far. IMO the only thing that needs doing is giving hybrids/gallente ships a boost.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.03.26 13:18:00 - [4] Originally by: Edoo having already boosted minmitar a lot, a big nerf on pulses may go too far. IMO the only thing that needs doing is giving hybrids/gallente ships a boost. err ok. Why dont ccp give the megathron a 5th mid slots and an uber damamge bonus? ^^ there is nothing wrong with the gallante ships its the guns. The blasters do hardly enough damamge for their range, how often do u drop 5km on your opponent? compared with the pulses that could wtfpwn within 20km. So these chages are needed. I've been on the test server alot and the pulses still kickass (me mega blew up ). So plz stay out of this. It seems you know nothing about the current situation. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.03.26 14:14:00 - [5] MT at 15km with best named stuff has no chance vs. ARMA with T2 guns... and did i forgot to mention, that it is 'impossible' to fit MT with t2 blasters(5/5/5 fitting skills)
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.03.26 14:28:00 - [6] Wow. An Armageddon with all Officer gear hasnt got a chance against a Megathron with all tech1 gear at 5km. Your point again? /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Syniteon	Posted - 2005.03.26 14:44:00 - [7] Edited by: Syniteon on 26/03/2005 14:48:08 Edited by: Syniteon on 26/03/2005 14:47:28 Originally by: LUKEC MT at 15km with best named stuff has no chance vs. ARMA with T2 guns... and did i forgot to mention, that it is 'impossible' to fit MT with t2 blasters(5/5/5 fitting skills) Yes i know that ou can;t fit tech 2 guns properly cause of grid and cpu so megathrone drivers can do more dmg with tech 1 than with tech 2. But CCP announce changes in cpu usage of blasters and and maybe powergrid. About named and tech 2 i agree completly with Elmo. Originally by: Kaeten Originally by: Edoo having already boosted minmitar a lot, a big nerf on pulses may go too far. IMO the only thing that needs doing is giving hybrids/gallente ships a boost. err ok. Why dont ccp give the megathron a 5th mid slots and an uber damamge bonus? ^^ there is nothing wrong with the gallante ships its the guns. The blasters do hardly enough damamge for their range, how often do u drop 5km on your opponent? compared with the pulses that could wtfpwn within 20km. So these chages are needed. I've been on the test server alot and the pulses still kickass (me mega blew up ). So plz stay out of this. It seems you know nothing about the current situation. Mate i don;t know what are you use on your mega and i don;t care much but if you want to presume that it is unposible or dificult to kill close range gank arma that just not true! But i agree that blasers need some CPU or PG boost! But that is queston about boosting hybrids and not nerfing lances and lasers! Cause projectiles are boosted and if hybrids in next patch get less cpu or pg they can fit easily tech 2 and do proper dmg But than nerfing lances is unnecesary
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.03.26 15:10:00 - [8] ok thats it. Wtf is a lance ? _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.03.26 15:14:00 - [9] People still don't understand something very simple. Lasers are not overpowered. Hybrids are underpowered, and projectiles are almost totally balanced, need a very slight boost though. And projectiles are SUPPOSED TO HAVE A LOWER TOTAL DAMAGE due to the fact it does all 4 damage types. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Meehan	Posted - 2005.03.26 15:33:00 - [10] Originally by: The Enslaver People still don't understand something very simple. Lasers are not overpowered. Hybrids are underpowered, and projectiles are almost totally balanced, need a very slight boost though. And projectiles are SUPPOSED TO HAVE A LOWER TOTAL DAMAGE due to the fact it does all 4 damage types. Let's not forget that Projectile's don't use any cap worth mentioning either. People should keep that in mind when they are crying for the same damage/tracking/range as the other guns have.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.03.26 15:35:00 - [11] Correct... Proj need a boost in tracking and a decrease (fairly significant decrease) in damage output. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.03.26 15:37:00 - [12] Edited by: LUKEC on 26/03/2005 15:40:11 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Wow. An Armageddon with all Officer gear hasnt got a chance against a Megathron with all tech1 gear at 5km. Your point again? Sorry, Gankageddon will hit you good enough at 5km and that is far from electron's optimal. And orbit closer = you hit crappy... Not orbit = u die My point: you don't have any chance(ok, you have 1% chance that you start at 10km or less)
ShadowlordUK	Posted - 2005.03.26 16:02:00 - [13] @ People complaining they can't fit a mega with all tech 2 blasters... To get an optimal geddon setup you have to use at least one slot for a cpu enhancer. Even when trying to gank the best setups use 7 hs'2 not 8... Since i've never flown a mega i cant say for certain, but i suspect if you used 1 low slot for powergrid/cpu you'd be able to fit all tech 2 guns too. So the whole argument about not being able to fit a full set of blasters without wasting a low slot is pretty irrelevant when comparing it to a geddon...
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.26 16:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Question2 Why dont we just lower the entire laser class so that,GASP,its possible to out-damage them WITHOUT using a ship with 2 damage bonuses at ship level 5? That would balance the entire laser class admirably. Considering how damage actually works combined with turret slots and other options, if this was not the case, then lasers would always be outdamaged with average or poor skills.
Reite	Posted - 2005.03.26 16:59:00 - [15] Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 26/03/2005 15:40:11 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Wow. An Armageddon with all Officer gear hasnt got a chance against a Megathron with all tech1 gear at 5km. Your point again? Sorry, Gankageddon will hit you good enough at 5km and that is far from electron's optimal. And orbit closer = you hit crappy... Not orbit = u die My point: you don't have any chance(ok, you have 1% chance that you start at 10km or less) No it wont.. Try it before you speak. KTHX
Miner's Bane	Posted - 2005.03.26 17:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Wow. An Armageddon with all Officer gear hasnt got a chance against a Megathron with all tech1 gear at 5km. Your point again? A shame you included all of that officer gear and couldnt be bothered to bring a webber. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.03.26 17:04:00 - [17] Yea, it's really a shame that you lack both medslots and CPU for one. Truly is. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Syniteon	Posted - 2005.03.26 17:08:00 - [18] Edited by: Syniteon on 26/03/2005 17:08:52 Originally by: Rod Blaine ok thats it. Wtf is a lance ? Lance=frequency crystal :) Originally by: The Enslaver People still don't understand something very simple. Lasers are not overpowered. Hybrids are underpowered, and projectiles are almost totally balanced, need a very slight boost though. And projectiles are SUPPOSED TO HAVE A LOWER TOTAL DAMAGE due to the fact it does all 4 damage types. Agree completly :) My whole point was that lasers are not overpowered and when hybrids get boost in next patch eve should have very good balance beetwen races
Leshrac Shepherd	Posted - 2005.03.26 17:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Syniteon On the other hand i am confused by the announcement about ammo that affects lenses! I find it entirely unneceserry and adding to the inbalance. Amarr ships will be even more effective against shield tanking, but very ineffective against armor tank. As far as projectile and hybrid ammo changes are concerned i put my faith in CCP's judgement :) But lense changes are excessive, especially switching 4 dmg from thermal to emp on multispectrals. I don' know where did you get that idea, but EM is far more effective than thermal against standard armor tanks, so stop complaining, it is a boost more than a nerf. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.26 17:31:00 - [20] Edited by: Selim on 26/03/2005 17:35:49 Originally by: The Enslaver Correct... Proj need a boost in tracking and a decrease (fairly significant decrease) in damage output. Are you kidding? Projectiles are already totally crap except on ships with both a damage bonus and a rate of fire bonus... and since they have the two bonuses, they don't get a bonus like tracking or optimal range. Minmatar ships have less cap anyway, so the cap argument is silly. Projectiles still use cap so they cant fire when they have no cap. Besides, lasers don't use ammo at all and thus NEVER need to reload... projectiles need to reload constantly. Thats a significant penalty. I'm of the opinion that ammo problems are the equivalent to cap usage on lasers, and hybrids should have a little of both. Thus, I also agree that projectiles should not do crap damage... People too often discount the fact that lasers don't use ammo, its a significant advantage and too often overlooked. And all people see about projectiles is 'omg they use no cap, NERF'. And nobody remembers that there is a skill to reduce cap usage, but not to decrease reloading times. And projectiles are poo when it comes to choosing damage types. Its always spread into two or three types, it adjusts range, and bringing 7 ammo types is NOT easy. Missiles have all the advantages of projectiles without the disadvantages.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.03.26 18:45:00 - [21] You are also missing out on two facts: -Damage types - Projectiles do ALL damage types, making them more effective (can not tank projectiles effectively due to this) -No cap use. Big advantage, you get to use all your cap for tanking, none for damage output. It is far easier to beat someone using lasers... Just shove a few hardeners on, instant laser tank. Naturally high resists to EM on all ships, average on thermal... Anyone armor tanking (armor tanking is effective on all ships, inc raven/tempest). Now, when you are fighting someone doing all damage types.... Uhuh. Much harder. imo, projectiles should do 20-25% less damage to a target with no resists due to damage type advantage. That, is balanced. And before you start, I fly all ships anyway - I'm not biased - you, however are, Selim... As can be seen by your extensive message history on the subject. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.03.26 18:46:00 - [22] Oh, and sorry - you are right... Was it one or two cap per shot on projectiles, compared to the 20-50 odd on lasers? -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Syniteon	Posted - 2005.03.26 18:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Leshrac Shepherd Originally by: Syniteon On the other hand i am confused by the announcement about ammo that affects lenses! I find it entirely unneceserry and adding to the inbalance. Amarr ships will be even more effective against shield tanking, but very ineffective against armor tank. As far as projectile and hybrid ammo changes are concerned i put my faith in CCP's judgement :) But lense changes are excessive, especially switching 4 dmg from thermal to emp on multispectrals. I don' know where did you get that idea, but EM is far more effective than thermal against standard armor tanks, so stop complaining, it is a boost more than a nerf. I just don't know where did you get idea that will be boost! I understand what you think. You think that most ppl don't tank em resistance at all. well maybe noobs do that. But every decent pvp player uses plates(20%) to all resistance cause it is much more efective even if you use only 2 slots for hardeners. And if you you want to use 3 or more slots for hard than you easily combine active with passive hards and get uber tanking setup. But nm that is your opinion but in every combination i have i never had em res below 70% abd still keep other res on decent numbers. Regards
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.03.26 19:02:00 - [24] Originally by: Syniteon I just don't know where did you get idea that will be boost! I understand what you think. You think that most ppl don't tank em resistance at all. well maybe noobs do that. But every decent pvp player uses plates(20%) to all resistance cause it is much more efective even if you use only 2 slots for hardeners. And if you you want to use 3 or more slots for hard than you easily combine active with passive hards and get uber tanking setup. But nm that is your opinion but in every combination i have i never had em res below 70% abd still keep other res on decent numbers. Regards Wow. I must meet alot of noob PvPers then. Oh wait... /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
piercer	Posted - 2005.03.26 20:11:00 - [25] Originally by: The Enslaver You are also missing out on two facts: -Damage types - Projectiles do ALL damage types, making them more effective (can not tank projectiles effectively due to this) -No cap use. Big advantage, you get to use all your cap for tanking, none for damage output. It is far easier to beat someone using lasers... Just shove a few hardeners on, instant laser tank. Naturally high resists to EM on all ships, average on thermal... Anyone armor tanking (armor tanking is effective on all ships, inc raven/tempest). Now, when you are fighting someone doing all damage types.... Uhuh. Much harder. imo, projectiles should do 20-25% less damage to a target with no resists due to damage type advantage. That, is balanced. And before you start, I fly all ships anyway - I'm not biased - you, however are, Selim... As can be seen by your extensive message history on the subject. They may do all dmg types but you try changing from say EMP L once their shields are gone to depleted uranium L with 1400mm's. The range difference is what is 'bad' about having all the different dmg types. And no i aint biased towards minmatar either as i fly amarr ships mostly and can fly nearly all the ships anyway. ---------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Bunny had an accident. Bunny lost his head.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.26 20:28:00 - [26] Originally by: piercer They may do all dmg types but you try changing from say EMP L once their shields are gone to depleted uranium L with 1400mm's. Erm you don't have to switch ammo, EMP does explosive damage as well...as people say, EM is the best dmg type against a tank and EXP is the best against untanked so you really are getting the best of both worlds. ________________________________________________________
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.03.26 21:17:00 - [27] yup, that about emp ammo is true. Anyone ever wondered why ravens mostly use mjolnin/bane combo? Because you get like 40% dmg on tanked armor and 55% on tanked shields... And yea, stacking 20% adaptive nanos t2 is not all that good. 4 of them give 47% resist. And use 8 cpu less than using N-type hardeners.
Alyth	Posted - 2005.03.26 22:03:00 - [28] OK then lets put it this way. How would you feel about neutrons hitting as hard as they do at 5km at 50km instead? Or autos doing the same? Isn't there something wrong with that picture? No-one is complaining about the damage they do, I doubt anyone has any problems there. It's the range that a supposedly short range weapon is dealing that damage at. Oh and before anyone says it, dual heavies aren't the short range large pulse turrets. They are the same as the dual 250's and dual 425's. Cruiser sized weapons to let BS hit cruisers.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.26 22:09:00 - [29] Originally by: Alyth OK then lets put it this way. How would you feel about neutrons hitting as hard as they do at 5km at 50km instead? Or autos doing the same? Hint: Radio does less damage then MF, a lot less and only outputs one damage type. We also don't hit as hard at 50km as we do at 20km so thanks for the fictitious information, we really don't get enough of that around here ________________________________________________________
Syniteon	Posted - 2005.03.26 23:09:00 - [30] Wow. I must meet alot of noob PvPers then. Oh wait... i didn;t want to insult anyone but i do think that swaping 4 termal to em is bad solution. Tempest have 70% base resistance! I always use plates. combination with active ones. But i am not majority. :) Anyway time will tell. I opened this thread cause i wanted to know other opinions and what they think about new changes. Tnx for all who answered. Syniteon

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