Ta for the cleanup, some posters were getting a little overexcited, myself included .

What some people fail to realise is that the forums, and some external Eve related sites, are very much part of the metagame, some of those people are new to the game, some are not, either way, it does need to be said that in Eve the metagame is very much part of the game itself.

I agree. It's a shame to see the miner defence committee resort to flaming and name-calling out of frustration. Even the OP, as a representative for the miners, starts off on an insulting and very unprofessional tirade, singling out an individual for attack. It's no wonder miners have a reputation of being likened to philistines when they present themselves this way.

He hasn't posted in this thread, as far as I'm aware. Do you mean to say he's provoking the miners to flame people in this thread? I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean.

Makes ambiguous statement, gets mad when someone uses it "out of context".

Also, I have seen far, far worse from miner's compared to anything James of his "agents" have ever typed.

Make what right, the statement? If it's true, then it's "right".

See, that's what gets me. Here we're playing a PvP sandbox game and we have a subset of "players" (one wonders why we keep up the pretense, they're actually robots) who "take" abuse. Given that we're:
A. Playing a video game
B. Playing a PvP game
C. Playing a sandbox game
I have to ask why anyone is forced to "take abuse"?

I have no pity, whatsoever, for people who consider themselves "victims" in a video game.

I don't think you are stupid enough (though correct me if I am wrong and I'll change this post accordingly) not to notice this; but carebears in general are very loud, self-serving, self-victimizing and goes to length to demonize any group or individual that is enjoying core game design, like PvP.

That's what's called "interaction". Miners affect every other player in the game and you're telling me they shouldn't have to interact with anyone else? Go play ******* Farmville.

If you're that distressed that someone might "interact" with you, you really need to stop playing multiplayer games, especially PvP sandbox games that thrive on interaction with other players.

I'm still not fully sure what you mean. Where on www.MinerBumping.com does James encourage anyone to post anything to the forums, let alone flaming and trolling posts?

Some people prefer to blow up ships or interrupt your activities in order to affect you, what is wrong with them using those tools, in much the same way you use the market and a mining laser?

This is a terrible post.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What is wrong with people bumping or blowing them up if they want to affect them?

Perhaps you're misinterpreting them. The posts on www.MinerBumping.com aid people in understanding and correctly following the Code. Any examples that are used are solely for illustrative purposes.

If you're taking them the wrong way, I'm afraid that's your fault. At no point does James encourage anyone to post hurtful things on the forums.

There is nothing wrong with it, but they shouldn't be able to do it without the risk of being punished for it. Specifically 'mind their own business' i.e carrying on like there are no other players in the game or that other players should pose no threat to them and therefore require no attention or precautionary measures to counter their influence.

Nothing at all.

Whats wrong with someone blowing up said miner because he was stupid and fitted no tank or bumping him to extort a ransom?

No need to fear!

Trollwoman is here!

So what's the counter to a gate camp? Speed fits, taking another route, etc. Yet you can still be caught out by a gate camp. Does this make it a duct tape fix, in that it isn't comprehensive? Should every activity in the game have an absolute counter, or should we be content with making it harder to target us (in the case of miner bumping, there are certainly ways to make yourself harder to bump)?

And your opinion matters due to what credibility?

I am not upset that miners may ignore or refuse to interact with me. I have interacted with miners in the past and I found their company to be unsatisfactory.

There are a good number of mods in game to counter bumping already...

This really isnt an issue if miners stopped to think for a bit. But no, they are doing exactly the same thing as when they whined about ganking.

Why not just orbit to counter ganks, and bumpers can get bumped too

We know that EVE is a sandbox. What does this mean? It means that EVE is a game where players are allowed to do whatever they like within the broadly defined mechanics created by CCP.

More specifically, this means that if a group of players (such as the one at www.MinerBumping.com) decides to create a set of rules (or dare I say it, a Code) and enforce it, it is far from moot. In fact, it is just as valid as CCP's rules as long as we can enforce it.

As for your claim that James is responsible for the actions of any follower, please, I invite you to quote one post on www.MinerBumping.com that encourages Agents to come and harass you here.

I offered an alternative game where a player would not be burdened by unnecessary interaction, such as being blown up, or being bumped, or even being talked to.

I can't, but thanks for playing.

Nice to see you doing it now, did your little "Max Doobie" plaything get banned because you flipped out earlier?

the problem with an anchor module is that the afk miners would moan, throw tantrums, unsub and act like general babbies unless CCP made it a midslot module that used no CPU, no powergrid and did not require any fuel to be used, because god forbid they have to make difficult fitting choices

and then it'd be solely tailored for miners and useless outside of mining

Disgusting miner filth are not "minding their own business", they sell their rocks or manufacture with them. That is not minding their own business. That is directly influencing the market and availability of everything.

All the more reason to find another game to play, huh? It's why I don't play COD or other shooters that may or may not feature 13-year old idiots screaming racist obscenities.

You're right. In terms of ganks, they have ways to respond. But the methods for one to respond to bumping really aren't there in any effective means. But very well, that's your right, stated respectfully, and I'll respect that. \o/

[quote=Nanatoa]The Code is not moot. It would be moot if it could not be enforced. As things stand, we have the means and the determination to enfore it. Deal with it.

(Of course, your way of 'dealing with it' is taking this out of game to the forums, in the deluded hope of Divine Intervention by CCP.)

And what is "in-game authority?" Authority implies having the means to enforce a code, the code is "pay for the right to mine here and you won't be bumped." It's basic emergent gameplay.

if bumping is all he does to miner, thats small hassle, set your mining ship to orbit asteroid your not mining Get bumped and ship will automaticly return to mining range.

And just like before there are a lot of ways to counter it already. Miners didn't need the extra EHP and they sure as hell dont need a new anti bump module.

They do have something to counter it with. They have a brain and all they need to do is to learn to use it in a befitting manner.

Then they might need to learn to defend themselves or find ways to deal with other people who have a vendetta against a type of gameplay.

It's not hard to avoid people you don't want to interact with, I do it all the time in game. The difference between me and most miners is that I put in the time, research, and practice to find out how to defend myself and avoid other people.

But the key difference here is a group of players that demand that CCP harshly punishes other players for interacting with this group, including actions taken against the "offending" players' account and it is not the "sociopaths" or "belligerent undesirables" that demand this.

You disagree with the fact that in a PvP game you might need to defend yourself from other players?

But there are ways to defend against it.

You keep repeating this. It's an entirely false statement.

This entire thread is an exercise in hilarious outrage at some guy who took a great extortion scheme and the means to enforce it, and blew it up into a metagame phenomenon.

And their solution to their woes, it being bumping by players or being attacked by players, is to ban the accounts or introduce a anti-bumping module. That is not a aggressive reaction, it is ******* pathetic!

Do you feel being displaced is a worthy reason to demand intervention from CCP? Is being forced to move to another system so game breaking that the whole community has to be punished? Is there a viable solution to this inconvenience that would not harm the quality of the experience the game offers for every single player?

There is a 100% effective mechanic in place. Simply right click the Agents name and select "Give Money". Enter the license fee of 10 million isk and bobs your uncle.

Of course it is. You even said yourself you can move to another system but dismissed it as being too inconvenient. Well if they don't want to move to another system, why not try surrounding themselves in a castle made of Jump Freighters? That would stop people bumping you. Of course that would take imagination and organization. Worst of all, it would ruin their boredom because it would be fun to try it out.

Sure. But how would you feel if a bunch of players demanded that CCP banned your account whenever you enjoyed the game?

So to summarise, there are mechanics that allow you to mitigate the issue, but there are trade-offs - they're not 100% effective, you have to move, whatever.

Sounds perfect to me.

If you had a counter which was 100% effective every single time and which did not require you to make a choice as to whether you are willing to make some kind of trade off (a la the less yield for more tank choice that disgusting miner filth refused to ever make) then it becomes by definition stupidly unbalanced.

Orbiting and webs do work.

You really have to answer why it is that battleships and carriers can manage to counter bumping while miners in a cruiser sized ship cannot manage it.

Good to know we agree on something then.

They don't have to pay the New Order, but they do have to live with the consequences of the choices they make. If you do not follow the New Order you must face the consequences.

Except they are already vulnerable to ganking, and miners already spend the vast majority of their time not moving, therefor your suggestion gives them a massive benefit without introducing any kind of drawback.

A more realistic scenario would be if the module reduced their yield by 50%.

There are effective counters to bumping, simply orbiting in a mackinaw or retriever is not one of them, if however you are orbiting in an AB skiff you are extremely hard to bump, won't stop us trying but 90% of the time we fail.

If the "I wanna mine all day and not be bumped" miners all quit mining it would indeed cause a price rise and shortage in ships and modules, then we would see some of the pilots who can fly mining ships, but don't because it's a poor return on time, come out of the woodwork and start mining again because it is economically viable to do so and it is in their interests to do so to produce ships.

Some of the miners that have purchased mining permits merely see it as a business cost not extortion, they have done the math and figure a 10 million isk permit is a worthwhile investment to be allowed to mine in peace and have a greater market share than those who don't have a permit.

We like these guys, they accept that people can interrupt their game play and have taken steps to minimize interference, in short they have adapted and are in a better position than those who have not.

yeah I remember that scene in 300 where King Leonidas whined to the devs about the Persians unfairly extorting him and griefing him

Except you're not really resisting the Order, you're just begging CCP to introduce mechanics that would artificially protect you. If you actually resist, without whining to mommy and daddy devs to simply fix it for you, that'd be admirable. However you would still lose, as the New Order is invincible.

Yet when they try this on my battleship they miss...

The reason why it is so effective on miners is because of the same reason ganking them was so easy. They take zero steps to protect themselves.

I don't know if you remember, but the Spartans at Thermopylae actually all died. That seems pretty similar to CONCORD to me.

So again this is a case of "there is yet another mechanic that lets me counter them, but I don't want to deal with the consequences or effort of that mechanic, a bloo bloo"

And suddenly war decs were invented.

Unfortunately, no, the spartans did not come back from the dead. Funnily enough though, that does happen in EVE. So um what was your point again

When the bumping ship is a nano phoon mass means very little. Mass also means squat if they miss you.

As for the webber. Use a frigate and have it orbit the barge?

Action: Whine to CCP and ask for a special mod to help you.
Cost: Getting laughed at by all the rest of EVE, developer time that could be spent fixing real problems, introducing a hilariously exploitable new mod to EVE, the New Order declaring a shift of focus to blockading Jita 4-4 with a wall of anchored mining barges and demanding a 10mil ISK fee from any freighter pilot wishing to pass through.

Nothing comes for free.

This is the equivalent of the miner coming back in his PVP ship.

Woah. Who said anything about wardecs? There's nothing stopping you from exacting revenge on your tormentor, you just have to pay the CONCORD fee for it.

Two ice interdictions, many hulkageddons, burn jita, summer of rage ect.

Hmm I have a Idea for myself now, I will now go around and find the people who paid you and bump them my self! Just so they know there money is worthless.

Getting them to do something, anything, IS the point.

Your idea of "resisting" is spurting tears all over the forum. I enjoy that a lot, but for any real miners out there, ones who are not mere undesirables, there are better suggestions.

We do tell them. We repeatedly advise them to go to www.minerbumping.com and read The Code. Paying the 10,000,000 ISK is just the first step on their road to recovery from bot-aspirant behavior.

In any case, they know what we want them to do. They resist for a while. Since we control the system they eventually either pay or dock up. Or fly around in noob ships pretending to be William Wallace....