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Torvin Yulus State War Academy Caldari State 84	Posted - 2012.11.01 03:14:00 - [1] - Quote people keep talking about "THE GREAT FCS" like Montolio, Malaku, and Shadew why is being able to boss around people your alliance has enslaved so special? i do incursions and the incursion fcs get the job done without yelling at people. nullsec FCs are mean arrogant crybabies who somehow got elevated to their jobs. i contend that if you can fc an incursion fcing some stupid drake blob is easy. im a pubby and im proud
Bane Necran Appono Astos 625	Posted - 2012.11.01 03:18:00 - [2] - Quote Now that's some trolling. But on the slim chance you're serious, it actually takes some real skill to command a fleet well. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham
Suddenly Forums ForumKings Republic University Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2012.11.01 03:20:00 - [3] - Quote let me put it some way you'll comprehend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X7_vN5VxS0
Shederov Blood Wrecketeers 161	Posted - 2012.11.01 03:21:00 - [4] - Quote Why don't we talk about THE GREAT INCURSION FCS who repeatedly beat the same bunch of red crosses that do the same thing every time?
Torvin Yulus State War Academy Caldari State 84	Posted - 2012.11.01 03:22:00 - [5] - Quote Shederov Blood wrote: Why don't we talk about THE GREAT INCURSION FCS who repeatedly beat the same bunch of red crosses that do the same thing every time? not all incursions are the same sometimes you have a few more or a few less of a ship thaN you wanted,. also its because of the goonswarm propaganda machine telling hi seccers they're worthless. im a pubby and im proud
Gussarde en Welle Fruidian Logic The Volition Cult 19	Posted - 2012.11.01 03:27:00 - [6] - Quote trolltacular
Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 386	Posted - 2012.11.01 03:29:00 - [7] - Quote Torvin Yulus wrote: people keep talking about "THE GREAT FCS" like Montolio, Malaku, and Shadew why is being able to boss around people your alliance has enslaved so special? i do incursions and the incursion fcs get the job done without yelling at people. nullsec FCs are mean arrogant crybabies who somehow got elevated to their jobs. i contend that if you can fc an incursion fcing some stupid drake blob is easy. I am not going to go into who is a great FC and who is not, but I can tell you, running a large fleet is far different that running am Incursion squad. I have FC'ed groups in wh's, and FC'ed small gangs in my null sec days. I have run logi in Incursions. Running a wh gang and running an Incursion gang is far far different that a small gang in null, let alone a large fleet in null. An incursion or wh gang has to focus mostly on the groups at hand, and they are NPC's. Their is a distinct, repetitive pattern to them. When you are dealing with PvP gangs, you have a far different paradigm. Some, and not all of the differences: 1. Multi-tasking: A good PvP squad/fleet has multiple scouts out there, all relaying info to the FC. There are multiple sqaud commanders to deal with. Try sitting in a Fleet channel. I am not talking the soldier channel, but the channel that holds the SC's, the WC's, the scouts, and the FC. It has to follow huge discipline to ensure the FC can handle all the information being thrown at him at once. 2. Personality management: Because an FC has to delegate a ton of responsibility, he must rely on other humans, and these humans may not all be that easy to control. A good FC has to have the respect of his everyone in the leadership channel, and that is sometime not easy to do. 3. Stress level: In an incusrion or wh, you have have 20 or 30 billion tied up in ships. In a fleet, that value ca soars into the trillions. Further, you screw up an Incursion or wh fleet, people suffer the loss of their ships and that's it. If you screw up a large fleet, you can not only lose trillions of ISK, but lose a sov in a system. Being a good, or great FC, takes a lot of knowledge of all types of ships, tactics, and knowledge of your opponent, plus be able to absorb huge amounts of info coming at you at once, plus control sub-ordinates and get everyone pulling in one direction, all the while you are being shot at. It is not easy, and there are only a few people that can do it.
Tysinger Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 33	Posted - 2012.11.01 03:34:00 - [8] - Quote OP.. You are a fkn tard lolololol
Ritsum Perkone Caldari State 11	Posted - 2012.11.01 03:35:00 - [9] - Quote Torvin Yulus wrote: people keep talking about "THE GREAT FCS" like Montolio, Malaku, and Shadew why is being able to boss around people your alliance has enslaved so special? i do incursions and the incursion fcs get the job done without yelling at people. nullsec FCs are mean arrogant crybabies who somehow got elevated to their jobs. i contend that if you can fc an incursion fcing some stupid drake blob is easy. Not only can they yell at you like drill Sargent's they also can adapt to the situation at hand. Being able to understand the flow of the fight and change your tactics accordingly is a very rare skill so when you find a great FC you gotta keep him/her. I am a proud High Sec Pve player. Got a problem?
KrakizBad Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension 994	Posted - 2012.11.01 04:03:00 - [10] - Quote Align to planet 3 BARK BARK www.minerbumping.com - because your tears are delicious

TuonelanOrja Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 198	Posted - 2012.11.01 04:07:00 - [11] - Quote Because of Malaku, he is very special person. Not a veteran, just bitter..
Terajima Kazumi Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 67	Posted - 2012.11.01 04:36:00 - [12] - Quote This is the first I've heard 'Makalu' and 'good FC' in the same sentence.
Xolve Amok. Goonswarm Federation 1202	Posted - 2012.11.01 04:37:00 - [13] - Quote Torvin Yulus wrote: also its because of the goonswarm propaganda machine telling hi seccers they're worthless. It's not propaganda if it's true. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator.
Ghazu 241	Posted - 2012.11.01 04:49:00 - [14] - Quote lol PVE FCs http://www.minerbumping.com/
Orzo Torasson PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore 75	Posted - 2012.11.01 05:04:00 - [15] - Quote Torvin Yulus wrote: people keep talking about "THE GREAT FCS" like Montolio In all my time in TEST, I've been in a fleet with Montolio in it once. He jumped his titan instead of bridging.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1681	Posted - 2012.11.01 05:06:00 - [16] - Quote KrakizBad wrote: Align to planet 3 BARK BARK Yes, tell me that story again BARK BARK :) Tell Kcolor I love flying with him ~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1681	Posted - 2012.11.01 05:07:00 - [17] - Quote Orzo Torasson wrote: Torvin Yulus wrote: people keep talking about "THE GREAT FCS" like Montolio In all my time in TEST, I've been in a fleet with Montolio in it once. He jumped his titan instead of bridging. A true hero and example to us all. Did the titan die? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Mars Theran Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 366	Posted - 2012.11.01 05:12:00 - [18] - Quote You guys shouldn't knock PVE FCs so much. It takes a great deal of skill to do that as well, when it comes to Sleeper AI in particular. Remembering every spawn, which ships do what, and which to take down first in every potential site and class of wormhole is no small thing. Sleeper AI is also a lot less predictable than NPC AI atm; though that difference may not be so great in the near future. As far as Fleet FCs go, I've heard of Shadew; though I thought it was Shadoo. I haven't heard of the other two, but I don't get out much. That said, I've seen evidence of at least one Rooks and Kings FC who was quite good as far as that goes, and I've seen similar evidence of a number of other vaunted FCs who were just blithering profanity and repeating the same 3 sentences over and over in high pitched articulated screeches. I wasn't impressed. Some may be good; others may be awful. I don't honestly know which ones are which, aside from what I mentioned there. Also, I'm sure it often can take some skill to adapt to changing combat dynamics in Fleets, but often I think the bigger the fleets, the less skill is involved. We're not talking rocket science when you fit 500 ships exactly the same way and just point at another 500 identical ships and say "kill!!!" I think that happens a lot. Evidence indicates that it is extremely common. And then, there's that comment about dealing with people. Seriously, if you've got a fleet, it doesn't matter who your opponent is or if they are real or AI, you are dealing with people, attitudes, and social dynamics within your fleet. Spamming local with smacktalk doesn't really qualify. The reason for that, (as I know many of you will say it is, and believe it is), is simple: Smacktalk is primarily one-sided. It is verbally slapping at random people looking for a reaction and hoping to psych some or all of them out. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
usrevenge Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 15	Posted - 2012.11.01 05:44:00 - [19] - Quote though I never plan on FCing anything, it seems like it takes a lot of coordination to get a large null fleet to work in unison.
Mars Theran Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 366	Posted - 2012.11.01 05:47:00 - [20] - Quote usrevenge wrote: though I never plan on FCing anything, it seems like it takes a lot of coordination to get a large null fleet to work in unison. How so? From all I've heard, the real challenge is getting a fleet to form; after that, it's pretty much fly to location, or jump, or whatever in a big mass, then lock targets and start shooting until one side or the other decides to retreat or loses all its ships. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub

Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 978	Posted - 2012.11.01 05:48:00 - [21] - Quote Look at all the people who have never been in a large 0.0 fleet, much less FCed one, talking crap about FCs. "Why are army generals so special, they sit in an office and order people around all day, while the soldiers do all the dirty work." "Why are university professors so special, they sit in front of the classroom and read from a script."
Arduemont Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans 575	Posted - 2012.11.01 06:05:00 - [22] - Quote On a very basic level, FCing at all doesn't require much more skill than the average player has. People are better off being given common goals by one person, even if that one person is **** at it. Good FCs however are doing significantly more than you can image though. Now, I only FC small gnag PvP usually. I think the biggest group I ever FCed only had 40 people in it. But an FC needs an understanding of where all of his ships are, you have to remember and keep track of a few scouts, plus the main body of the fleet. If it's small gang you probably need to know and remember what everyone is flying and roughly how they've fit their ship. On top of that, you need to understand PvP and make decisions that will mean explosions for someone. And that someone has to be someone not in your fleet. People often say I am one of the calmest FCs they'll ever fly with, but sometimes you need to get a little bitchy with people, because sometimes one persons mistakes can kill the whole fleet. As for FCing PvE, I've done that as well, and frankly it takes significantly less skill. Sorry. If you can do it yourself, you can tell 10 other people how to do it. If you can't do it yourself, like Incursions or Sleepers, you just tell the logi to do their stuff and then carry on anyway. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice."
Silk daShocka Greasy Hair Club 52	Posted - 2012.11.01 06:43:00 - [23] - Quote Arduemont wrote: People often say I am one of the calmest FCs they'll ever fly with, but sometimes you need to get a little bitchy with people, because sometimes one persons mistakes can kill the whole fleet. Usually the FCs mistake. Kind of hard to get bitchy with them though, ego and all.
Mars Theran Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 367	Posted - 2012.11.01 07:55:00 - [24] - Quote Abdiel Kavash wrote: Look at all the people who have never been in a large 0.0 fleet, much less FCed one, talking crap about FCs. "Why are army generals so special, they sit in an office and order people around all day, while the soldiers do all the dirty work." "Why are university professors so special, they sit in front of the classroom and read from a script." QQ ..apparently you don't know, so maybe you shouldn't be making statements. Besides, there are plenty of youtube videos of 0.0 fleet engagements for reference, even for those who haven't been in one. I have once, but it was a mass test on SiSi. Apart from that, my only experience with Blobs is getting destroyed by them without mercy. That doesn't mean I can't figure out that you put 2000 people in a fleet and have one guy shouting commands like Primary this, Secondary that, now Primary Secondary, now Secondary that, now primary that, and so on doesn't take a whole lot of skill. Just ask anyone in a Null Alliance where there tactics start and end, and I guarantee you it will be one of two answers, (if they're honest): The fittings, or the meta game. If you need proof, I'm sure you can figure out that all the lack of concern about Fleet mechanics not being particularly functional is relevant somehow. FCs aren't generals; CEOs are. FCs aren't professors. FCs are mostly people who refuse to listen to reason, accept or abide other peoples opinions, or allow people to have the last word, even when they know they're wrong. That isn't to say all fleets have shouting maniacs as FCs; that would be over-generalizing. Let me think.. Jump, jump, jump, on gate, on gate, drop bubbles, primary , primary, secondary, secondary, go, go, etc.. So what does an FC do? Mostly, an FC makes sure the group is doing one thing, instead of many. Some skill is required to make that happen, and some knowledge to make it effective, but all it really is, is organizing a mass to one goal. Provided everybody does what they are told, that isn't particularly complicated. Making sure that it works in everybodies favor is a little more demanding. That is not tactics, strategy, or highly organized maneuvers however. That little trick with the drake ball vs. the smartbomb wall is strategy. Dropping a cyno to jump in an informed Cap ship pilot at just the right moment is tactics. Not informing that pilot is meta. That doesn't happen in every fleet so far as I know. Just as a very telling point, I'll point out that FCs were more or less equally functional when the fleets were lagged out completely, with members dropping to disconnects and suffering from frame rates of 1-6 frames and actions per minute and zero control of the situation. What does that tell you? My Mass test experience was more often like that, than not. Much of it involved helpless inaction, with some of it giving me the opportunity to target a ship and even fire off a few rounds, and some of it being jammed out, unable to fire or do anything but watch my ship slowly skip through the battle. Eventually I just disco'd. Command that. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Akirei Scytale Test Alliance Please Ignore 2567	Posted - 2012.11.01 08:06:00 - [25] - Quote Torvin Yulus wrote: people keep talking about "THE GREAT FCS" like Montolio, Malaku, and Shadew why is being able to boss around people your alliance has enslaved so special? i do incursions and the incursion fcs get the job done without yelling at people. nullsec FCs are mean arrogant crybabies who somehow got elevated to their jobs. i contend that if you can fc an incursion fcing some stupid drake blob is easy. Your list is awful and you should feel awful. The fact it has Montolio and Makalu in it, but no mention of Mr Vee or DingoGS, is kind of absurd. FFS I don't think Montolio has ever led a single fleet in his entire EVE career. As for why they are celebrated, it is because a good FC must: Coordinate hundreds of idiots, crazy people and egomaniacs into a single cohesive unit operating like a school of fish. Remain aware of both the tactical and strategic situation at all times, coordinating dozens of scouts and keeping in constant contact with multiple other fleets and coalition command. Understand what wins battles, and how to call targets appropriately. Much more complicated and difficult than you might think. Remain calm under extreme stress, and able to multitask to an absurd degree (hundreds of actions per minute in dozens of different areas). Actually be entertaining and generally socially fun so people want to keep coming on the fleets. Have actual leadership skills. (Mars you have no idea) TEST Alliance BEST Alliance
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5425	Posted - 2012.11.01 08:15:00 - [26] - Quote Mars Theran wrote: words you're right, FCing gigantic fleets is easy, that's why there are less than ten bloc-level FCs in the entire game ~a-áproud belligerent undesirable~
Mars Theran Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 367	Posted - 2012.11.01 08:15:00 - [27] - Quote Akirei Scytale wrote: Coordinate hundreds of idiots, crazy people and egomaniacs into a single cohesive unit operating like a school of fish. This is essentially to what I was referring. It is almost impossible to coordinate a great many people who generally don't want to deal with complicated battle plans with a great variety of ship types and fittings. It is impossible for one person to do it. This is why fleets often have a few groups of specific fittings that are used in a fight. It is easier to command groups by designation, (i.e: Drakes), than a multitude of individuals. Akirei Scytale wrote: Remain aware of both the tactical and strategic situation at all times, coordinating dozens of scouts and keeping in constant contact with multiple other fleets and coalition command. Understand what wins battles, and how to call targets appropriately. Much more complicated and difficult than you might think. Remain calm under extreme stress, and able to multitask to an absurd degree (hundreds of actions per minute in dozens of different areas). Actually be entertaining and generally socially fun so people want to keep coming on the fleets. Have actual leadership skills. (Mars you have no idea) Sure, good FCs may do that. You can think what you want. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Mars Theran Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 367	Posted - 2012.11.01 08:16:00 - [28] - Quote Andski wrote: Mars Theran wrote: words you're right, FCing gigantic fleets is easy, that's why there are less than ten bloc-level FCs in the entire game Well, that hardly makes what I said less than generalizing does it. I mean 10 guys out of 400'000... zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Aaewen Hrothgarson Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans 21	Posted - 2012.11.01 08:19:00 - [29] - Quote Mars Theran wrote: Abdiel Kavash wrote: Look at all the people who have never been in a large 0.0 fleet, much less FCed one, talking crap about FCs. "Why are army generals so special, they sit in an office and order people around all day, while the soldiers do all the dirty work." "Why are university professors so special, they sit in front of the classroom and read from a script." QQ ..apparently you don't know, so maybe you shouldn't be making statements. Besides, there are plenty of youtube videos of 0.0 fleet engagements for reference, even for those who haven't been in one. ... At first i hoped for irony, then I read further. I should have known better, the sentence starts with QQ. "Youtube videos" for reference ...
Akirei Scytale Test Alliance Please Ignore 2567	Posted - 2012.11.01 08:23:00 - [30] - Quote Mars Theran wrote: This is essentially to what I was referring. It is almost impossible to coordinate a great many people who generally don't want to deal with complicated battle plans with a great variety of ship types and fittings. It is impossible for one person to do it. This is why fleets often have a few groups of specific fittings that are used in a fight. It is easier to command groups by designation, (i.e: Drakes), than a multitude of individuals. Whaaaaaaa? No, the reason fleets have specific ships (a primary workhorse, logi, and a half dozen or so support filling various roles) is because they operate as a single unit. Not because it is "impossible" or "hard" to coordinate a kitchen sink fleet - because a kitchen sink fleet has no purpose. It is like a ship with every gun type fitted. A good fleet has a very specific role it is filling - countering the opponent's fleet, covering supercaps, stationary POS defense, etc. This requires every damage ship to be operating at the same ranges with similar tracking, and it requires a uniform tank type across its entirety. Every single ship is a piece of a machine that the FC is operating, each individual member relied on to fill his role. Some roles are very individual skill focused, some involve little more than locking and shooting. A fleet is a COHESIVE UNIT. You've never been in a real one have you? TEST Alliance BEST Alliance



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